.270 For Elk Part 2

Wasatch

Active Member
Messages
246
So I just got back from my elk hunt and had a blast. I even shot one too! After all of the advice and opinions everyone shared, I just wanted to share how my .270 actually performed. I shot my cow at about 200 yards +/-, my first shot was a quartering away shot as she was trotting down hill through some quakes. It entered about 4 inches back from her left shoulder and angled forward clipping her liver and coming to rest just inside of her left lung (I didn't realize that though until afterwards). After I shot she kept on trotting, she hadn't bucked, jumped, flinched or anything so I didn't think I had hit her. Then she just stopped and stood there not moving, so I shot a few more times from a prone position with a good rest. Again she didn't flinch, turn, anything. She showed no signs of being hit, or that I was even coming close with any of my shots. So, after shooting all 5 rounds she still just stood there not moving. Just looking around as if all was well in the world! I was really beginning to wonder how it was possible that I kept missing! As I was reloading I moved down hill about 30 yards to get a little closer and as I brought my rifle back up to shoot she just tipped over, fell right over dead. Anyway, what a tough old bird! She took 5 shots and didn't even flinch! I was shooting just a regular old 150 grain .270 round. It did what it was supposed to, but after this I don't know that I'd try shooting an elk any further than 200 yards out.

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Good job. Thanks for the follow-up. I'm not reading that story feeling like the 270 let you down. Where did the other 4 shots hit? What did the bullet look like that you recovered? Do you think you would have had more dramatic results with a bigger caliber or with a better bullet? There is no second guessing from me I just think its an interesting experience and thought I'd ask a few follow-up questions. Feel free to shoot your next elk with whatever you want.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-08 AT 10:29AM (MST)[p]No, not at all, I love shooting my .270 and felt it performed great! I'm not second guessing its performance at all. I absolutely would and will continue to hunt elk with it. I just couldn't believe how tough the cow was, and that even after being shot she just stood there as if nothing happened. The other 4 shots hit very near the first shot just back of the shoulder, hitting her gut, and one hit her flank....keep in mind I was adjusting thinking I was misisng!
 
I shot my first bull at 17 yrs old with my 270 win in the gila. The shot was about 100 yards. He was quartering away just standing there. He didn't even know I was there. The bullet entered the middle of the ribs and took out both lungs. The bull never acted like he was hit. He just kept walking and fell over dead after 5 solid minutes. Shot placement and patience is the key to smaller calibers. a 270 just doesn't have the knock down power that larger calibers do. The main thing that kills an elk is the supersonic shockwave shaped cone that forms around the bullet. This cone creates water hammer in the body which is propagated via the blood. This over loads the nerves and causes the elk to just give up like you see a lot on TV. A 270 doesn't carry enough momentum to deliver a supersonic shockwave of grave proportions into the cavity of an elk. Most of this wave is lost when the bullet slows on impact. what I am saying is that the elks hide will absorb most of the energy. Water hammer doesn't propogate at a greater amplitude due to the loss of momentum (not energy). Energy is what is needed to punch a slug through an animal. Energy is not the killing factor, shock waves are. Look at the doppler runs from edwards air force base, lockheed martin, boeing, etc. They all track bullets in flight to determin ballistic characteristics. The shockwave is the immediate threat to hull integrities on tanks, planes etc. We currently use this principal to defeat russian tanks. We can't used shaped charges to penetrate armor so we changed to high speed projectiles that punch through the armor. The shock wave around the bullet creates a vaccum in the area between the edges of the shockwave. Everything in the schockwaves path will be forced in the direction of the bullets travel. Anyone inside that tank exits that tank through a 1" diameter hole where the bullet exits. This is why there is so much damage in the area around the bullets entrance. No, its not explosion, its the shock wave. If the bullet violently explodes inside then another totally different type of shock wave forms that does the same damage. Only difference here is that this shock wave is compared to that of a grenade instead of an f-16 entering supersonic flight. Ok, I opened the can of worms. Now lets hear everyone disagree. Too bad the physics books back me up.







When I die I'm leaving this world the same way I came in.......Accidentally!
 
Yeah it sounds like your shooting was fine. I've had that happen with elk before. You shoot them and can't tell they were hit and then they tip over. (thats one reason I went to the high shoulder shot but thats another discussion) That elk was dead from the first time you pulled the trigger. It just didn't know it yet.

You might think about spending a little more for a bullet like the Barnes TSX or Trophy bonded bear claw. You can get them factory loaded through Federal. At $39-$45 a box they are expensive but I think they do make a difference.

Again, thanks for the followup
 
stinkystomper, So how does one maximize shockwave? does a hollow-point create more shockwave? I know it doesn't have the penetration but does it create more shockwave?

The reason i ask is because I met a guy a few years ago who killed an elk with a 223 and something like a 55gr bullet. His theory was get it zipping out there at some ridiculous velocity and let the light bullet create some shockwave.

(You think you opened a can of worms)
 
I was hunting with my nephew this year when he killed a raghorn with his .270. He hit it 3 times at about 50 yards. Twice trhough the boiler room and once through the guts. The bull just stood there like nothing happened until it fell over dead.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-08 AT 02:53PM (MST)[p]I'm sure there will be a can of worms opened up. The amount of energy transferred from the cartridge to the tissue is likely key for damage. I suppose that is why some want a bullet that penetrates deep, mushrooms, retains its mass, and stops in the inside of the hide on the opposite side of impact. I suppose both velocity and the mass of the bullet have some influence. Some will propose that it all about velocity and others all about mass. No doubt the heaviest bullet, traveling the fastest, will transfer the greatest amount of energy to the animal. We see the same arguments among bow hunters re: penetration, speed vs. weight.

Regardless, elk tend to be tough. I've seen some go down on the spot, some take a couple of shots in the vitals and still cover some ground. I shot a calf a couple of weeks ago. Destroyed one lung, blew off part of the heart, and took out part of the other lung. You'd've never thought he'd been hit at the shot. Ran 60 yards, stopped, paused, and keeled over. Shot much larger elk with the same load and see them topple at the shot. 30-06, 165 gr. Winchester super X pointed soft points.
 
I wouldn't worry about the .270 at 200 yards. From your description it sounded like everything went well - just fine. No she didn't go tail over tea-kettle but she is dead. Also you have to realize she is an elk. Elk are tough! It also appears that she was aware of your presence and may have already had the adrenaline flowing - which makes then even tougher. I have seen a cow elk do that exact same thing - just stand there and get hit - over 11 times - (we literally saw the dust flying off her hide with each hit) - with 3 different calibers, .270, 7MM and .30-06, some shots simultaneous. She finally ran away and then fell over dead. That is because she was an elk. On the other hand, I have seen quite a few elk drop on a dime from a .270 as well. As has been said - shot placement is key!. I know of a big spike that got hit high in the shoulder go down in the tall grass so fast that by the time the hunter came back from the recoil he didn't know where it was! That elk's neck and several vertabrae were shattered.

Stinkystomper has a good point though and yes the physics do back him up!

So Stinky - not meaning to be cocky or rude, but it is obvious that you have plenty of experience with big elk and have done the homework - what is the minimum caliber you recommend for elk? Where do we begin to get an effecient amount of shockwave?

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
I shot my cow this year 4 times with my .338, and she soaked up every shot just like yours, no flinch or anything. She simply fell dead as I was reloading. 380 yards off sticks, I was happy with my shooting, and every Elk is tough.
 
someone asked how do you create a shockwave. the easiest way is to find a bullet that has a thick enough base to penetrate into the vitals then explode like a grenade. the best bullet for this is the .338 caliber sierra match king. most other match king bullets will explode on contact. theres a balance between base depth, momentum, and energy. the other way to create a massive shock wave is to get a bullet with a high amount of energy and a high value of momentum. the shockwave is directly porportional to the surface area interacting with the coeficients of air, and the velocity. the faster an object travels the more the air attempts to stop this object in motion. this means the faster a bullet goes the air being deflected is done so with greater force resulting in larger funnel clouds forming behind the bullet. the air flow behind the bullet is like a vaccum. the magnitude of these funnel diameters relate to the size of the path of destruction observed when an animal is opened up. secondly, the diameter of the bullet is the other major factor. as the diameter increases so does the size of the funnel cloud of departing air molecules around the bullet. what happens is that the eddy currents at the trailing edges of the funnel interact with the tissues. this tissue is then forced in the direction of the departing air flows which could be in many directions. the tissues that fall within the funnel cloud are directed in the direction of the flowing particles which is in the direction of bullet travel. This is why a solid shot from my 50 BMG is so deadly. .5 inch hole in and out but all internals are destroyed and sucked out the exit hole. in short this is what you should do. find a bullet that is fairly large in diameter that can be pushed about 3500 fps at the barrel. then also require the bullet to fragment once inside. mushrooming is a waste. Every piece of that bullet that fragments sends shockwaves in the direction of each fragment. the pieces don't destroy, the waves destroy. in short. heavy fast frgmenting bullets are show stoppers. if u can get a 220 swift at 4300 fps with a 40 gr bullet in a soft spot it will transfer massive waves inside the cavity and possibly accomplish decent results. but then again momentum is against u resulting in energy lost to the hide. ...... just my two cents.





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When I die I'm leaving this world the same way I came in.......Accidentally!
 
Hey stinkystomper,

Let me 1st say you sound like you definitely know what you are talking about. Not disputing you but, if fragmenting bullets are going to kill quicker why are the bonded bullets and full copper bullets getting so much attention now days?

And are the Berger VLD's the Best of The West guys use a similar bullet to the Sierra Game Kings? Maybe thats why the game they shoot drops so quick? The bullet and high shoulder shot placement?

I shoot a 160gr Accubond in a 7mm RUM at 3150fps and the last elk I shot was a bull at 450yds. He just stood there too, never even flinched. I thought I missed but I couldn't get a follow up shot because his cows were all around him. While I was waiting for the cows to clear he finally just fell over. I hit him right behind the shoulder and the bullet went all the way through.
 
There is a video I posted on the guns forum about bullet performance. To many that watch it appears that the bullets all perform the same. But look closely at the shock wave as the bullets go thru the gelatin and you'll see first hand what stinky's talking about. The wound channels appear simular in all the tests but the video clearly shows that some of the bullet designs transfer their energy and penetrate in a different manner. Some punch through and others shed more of their energy faster which causes the hammer effect. Why some seem to perform better than others has to do with the tissue & bone they go thru, bullet design and the velocities they're at when hitting the target. Weatherby used to market their product because they seemed to hit harder then when shooters extended their range they used the shoot flatter angle. The other factor in all this is that bullet design has come a long ways since the advent of the computer. They have been able to develop better jackets and core retention, manufacturing techniques and have changed the composition of the jackets to make them better. Most designs today also have higher BC and fly better and that translates to better long range ballistics in drop and energy and accuracy. great post stinky!
 
After reading this it sounds the the Barnes TSX is the last bullet you want to use...I've always thought the same thing stinky is saying. I don't want any of my bullet going out the other side...let the animal soak up all the energy...I never thought about the fragmenting pieces creating more shock waves...makes sense though
 
I understand the shockwave theory and I believe it to be true, but I can't help but wonder if a slower bigger bullet wouldn't accomplish the "bouncing" around in the body and destroying internals wouldn't be almost as good? .303, .308, and any of the older lever calibers- 30-40, 30-30 etc? Just wondering. Also, elk are bad azz, seen them with legs shot out go up hill, guts hanging out go miles, etc. They are the ultimate athlete of the forests, bigger, stronger, faster. I know this goes to the one perfect gun arguement, but I still think polled, the .270 would be only after the 30-06, 7mm, 300win, in that order. The .338 is probably the best for elk for kills, but on an antelope, whitetail, or varmints it is overkill(I know dead is dead). In the interest of openess I shoot a a-bolt 06', and use the trophy bonded bear claws in 165 grain with 3x9 leupold vxII. My dad bought me it 18 years ago and he ain't here no more so I use it to keep a piece of him hunting with me (he used a .270). I will go with a 7mm for my son because I believe them to be the best all around, but if he wanted a .270 I wouldn't be opposed, good caliber, ammo is cheap(compared to the bigger calibers) so it would get shot a lot and it kills just fine! Worst part of the thread is the sunny conditions this late in the season, I have a late le tag and will have to wear shorts I guess!! Good job!!
 
I will always take two holes over one hole in an animal. Most of the energy a bullet carries is lost in the first 12 inches that it enters an animal. A bullet that mushrooms helps you lose that energy in the animal. If you look at bullets that are shot into gel you will see the same thing mass of damage in the first 12 inches then just a channel that the bullet goes through after the first 12 inches.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-08 AT 08:18AM (MST)[p]I like two holes too, that way you get blood out of both sides. I'm not sure if the "BEST" exists, seems like you always have to trade off one particular bullet performance characteristic to get another.
 
Stinky:

As you said, you opened a can of worms. I am not questioning your understanding of physics, etc., but have pondered this same question many times.

I have heard the shockwave theory many times before, and though it is supported from the standpoint of physics relative to inanimate objects such as Russian tanks, it is not a relevant theory for objects of flesh, such as elk, deer, or in the case of military studies done on such, humans.

A friend who has done studies for the military on such things tells me that shockwave theory as it relates to tissue damange, is invalid. He explains that killing power on animals is related to the wound channel and the amount of tearing or destruction on non-pliable tissue. Also is the compression and compaction of the areas hit and the ability of those organs, bones, etc to withstand compression and compaction.


Here is an article that focuses on similar topics.

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Introduction


Terminal ballistics is the study of the interaction between penetrating projectiles and body tissues. Evolving in tandem with small arms development, most of our current understanding of terminal ballistics has come from the hard work of dedicated trauma surgeons, starting with Dr. Emile T. Kocher's groundbreaking work towards the end of the 18th century up to contemporary times with Dr. Martin L Fackler. Unfortunately, much of their work is relatively difficult if not impossible for the general public to access.

For the most part, the science of wound ballistics has focused on military small arms ammunition (ie: centerfire rifle ammunition in common military calibers such as 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO) and pistol ammunition (such as the ubiquitous 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP). Shotgun wound ballistics seem to have been somewhat neglected in the available literature; somthing that is regrettable and as a result a general lack of knowledge surrounds both the effectiveness and limitations of the shotgun in armed conflict. Our intent with this section is to somewhat fill that gap. Our hope is that this will arm you with some basic information that will enhance your capability to make informed choices with respect to shotgun ammunition selection and application in a tactical situation.



Wounding Mechanisms


Penetrating projectiles cause injury from two wounding phenomenon; crushing and stretching. As the projectile passes through tissue, it crushes tissue creating what is known as the permanent cavity. The diameter of the cavity is, for the most part, in proportion to the presenting area of the projectile although this will vary depending on the profile of the projectile. Blunt, flat nosed projectiles will crush a wider permanent cavity as compared to one of a more aerodynamic shape (ie: a long and gently tapered high velocity rifle bullet). Within the world of shotgun ammunition there are typically very limited geometries to consider, as most shot is round and most slugs have a fairly blunt profile.

The second type of damage a projectile passing through tissue can cause results from the walls of the permanent cavity being stretched radially outwards. The degree to which the tissue is pushed laterally is described as the temporary cavity and all damage caused is a result of this stretching. The degree of damage caused is typically a function of the elasticity of the tissue, and the various tissues of the body will behave differently in this regard. For example, muscle tissue is relatively elastic and as such not terribly prone to significant stretching damage whereas more inelastic tissues such as the liver wound sustain considerable damage from stretching of equal magnitude as what we inflicted on the muscle group.

What is most important to recognize with medium/low velocity projectiles typical of most shotgun loads is that their primary wound creation mechanism is the permanent crush cavity caused by the passage of the projectile. Damage caused by the temporary stretching by displaced tissue is not a reliable wounding mechanism and as such little attention should be paid to the temporary stretch cavities illustrated in our ballistic gelatin testing. To re-quote material we talk about in our article on shotgun ammunition, Dr. Martin Falker writes:

"A large slow projectile will crush a large amount of tissue, whereas a small fast missile with the same kinetic energy will stretch more tissue but crush less. If the tissue crushed includes the wall of a large blood vessel, far more damaging consequences are likely to result than if this vessel absorbs the same amount of energy in being stretched or temporarily displaced by cavitation."



Myths


Regrettably there are many myths that have recently wormed their way into the popular literature relating to how projectiles wound. Likely the most popular of these are the various incantations of "shock wave" dogma. Sometimes correlated to the temporary stretch cavity observed in gelatin testing, the premise of this theory is that hydraulic shock effected by the passage of the projectile through tissue sets up a wave that can travel through the body, damaging organs and tissues distant to the wound tract. The simple truth is that there is no scientific evidence to suggest this phenomenon actually occurs.

Another variation of the "shock wave" theory contends that the body's nervous system can easily be "overloaded" by the energy absorbsion. While there are some documented cases of people collapsing without any apparant damage to their central nervous system, these have typically all happened with high power rifle ammunition where the bullet has passed very close to the spinal column. It is not an easily repeatable phenomenon and even less likely to occur with pistol and shotgun ammunition. As such it is not a reliable means of incapacitation and further study is likely required.



Ordinance Gelatin Testing


When Dr. Martin Fackler of the Letterman Army Institute of Research developed what are now the standardized gelatin testing protocols it was with the intent of being able to better simulate gunshot wounds in the human animal. The primary objective of this ballistic testing methodology created by Dr. Fackler was a standard of reference for use in the comparison and evaluation of varied surgical corrections and treatments.

The preparation of ordinance gelatin is typically held to a very specific procedure. Once the gelatin has been prepared, it is then calibrated immediately before use to demonstrate that it falls within a relatively narrow window of physical properties designed for block to block consistency. This calibration process is important for wound ballistic researchers as it sets a standard by which observations from one gelatin block can be meaningfully compared to those observed in another block. The calibration standard is typically 8.5cm of penetration by a steel BB with an initial velocity of 590fps.

If the penetration of the steel BB at 590fps does not meet the calibration standard, all is not lost though as excellent data collected by Duncan MacPherson allows correlation and correction provided the velocity and mass of the BB fall within the calibration protocol. tacticalworks.ca gelatin testing has all been done in accordance with calibration and correction standards established by both Dr. Fackler and Mr. MacPherson.


***IMPORTANT INFO***
The reader must be advised that ballistic gelatin testing does not, and cannot reliably predict the incapacitation potential or "stopping power" effected by the various ammunition.

Properly prepared ordinance gelatin used as a testing media simply approximates projectile wound profiles as observed in adult swine leg muscle tissue; it does not describe exactly how any projectile may behave in all conditions. Interpretation of the wound profiles must be limited to simple comparison of the two different tissue disruption mechanisms.

Far more relevant than the evaluation of one type of ammunition as compared to another is the weapon operator. There are absolutely no substitutes for quality training, effective & frequent practice, well developed tactics, and a high level of fitness.

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So, this supports the theories as to why controlled expansion bullets are so popular and effective. They are ballistically superior to blunt nosed bullet. And, upon entry, they expand larger than original diameter, creating large wound channels that do a lot of tearing, compression, compaction, and damage.

Which is why bullet placement is so important. As my friend who has consulted with the military on this topic stated when I seemed to still cling to the shockwave theory - If shockwave theory was what killed animals, shoot every elk in the a$$ and make sure they absorb all the energy, as the shockwave theory will be fully enforced upon the elk. Will he drop like hit by lightning? Nope.

Bullet placement is so important because of the the mechanics of wounding that cause death - tearing, compression, compaction, etc. We are placing bullets in areas that have the greatest damage based on these principles of wounding.

After talks with this person, I am now convinced that bullet placement is item of importance #1-10, proper caliber for game selected is #11, and bullet construction is item #12, with all the other theories/principles being much further down the list.

The theory that an exited bullet is wasted energy is somewhat true, but not necessarily important.

Example: A .270 doesn't exit, and all energy is absorbed. Good. A .300 has 145% of the energy that the .270 has and provides an exit wound by utilizing all but 15% of its energy. So, would you rather have all the energy absorbed from the .270, or 30% more absorbed by using a .300, and getting an exit wound?

This is merely an example to prove that an exit wound is not necessarily a bad thing. It is in no way my statement that a .270 is incapable of killing an elk.

This topic can be argued to the end of time, but most scientific studies of the shockwave theories used for military ordiance and damage to armor, are not considered valid for studies related to lethality of bullets in animals.

Given the many opinions on this topic, I offer mine and will rest with that.

I have many good elk rifles from the .270 to .300 and with proper placement of good bullets, they are all more than lethal on elk.

Happy Hunting!


"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
I shot a six point bull last year at 531 yards with my .280 and it died in its tracks. Then shot a nice muley with the same rifle and bullet 3 times in the chest before going down. That same year I witnessed my friend shoot his bull 5 times with a 300 win mag at 200 yards before going down and then put another one in him when we walked up to it. You just never know what you are going to get with elk. They are tough animals.

All I know is that there is only one degree of dead. Congrats on the elk.
 
bifin..
great reply. there r always studies showing different mechanisms. I wish everyone would read this post. this is exactly how debates should be carried out. data to back u up n courtesy. great discussion guys seriously. btw. I dropped a great muley this weekend with my 338 lapua. he was running flat out at 500 yds. I didn't have time to dial in the one shot I had n got lucky. hit him low in the guts with the 250 gr scenar hollow point. similar to the matchking. He was piled up 8 yards from the impact point. Experts say never to hunt with matchking type bullets. this bullet always explodes in the cavity of every animal I shoot. The 338 caliber matchking n scenars r definitely bullets to hunt with. any ways I just thought that was a cool story. also, the sako trg 42 rules. its the best gun ever. theres another can of worms guys. hehehe. will post more when im done muley hunting in colorado.






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When I die I'm leaving this world the same way I came in.......Accidentally!
 
Hmm, that is weird, the only cow my .270 shot (the rest with my 30.06), she was slowly trotting, broadside at 130-140 yards.

I hit her right behind the shoulder and just a smidgen high, but it leveled her. I mean knocked her 2 feet back and down for good.

If I was you I would go to a nosler or a boat tail partition. Much hotter bullet.
 
who doesn't like two holes? DOH!~~~~

>LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-08
>AT 08:18?AM (MST)

>
>I like two holes too, that
>way you get blood out
>of both sides. I'm not
>sure if the "BEST" exists,
>seems like you always have
>to trade off one particular
>bullet performance characteristic to get
>another.


dutch
" Man who excels at putting worm on hook is Master Baiter"
 
I like the Barnes TSX and the Trophy bond Bear Claw too bad the Bear Claw is no longer being made.
 
All I know is I shot a elk last year at just over 500 yards and it almost fell over on impact.It took a couple steps and then died.It was quarting away and it got both lungs.280 ackley improved (One mean and accurate caliber).
 
hey boys. i just got back from my elk hunt and smacked a nice 5 point with my .270 win. 1 shot through both lunges about 175 yards and he dropped on impact. he ended up clawing around making his way down hill but i found him 20 yards from where i shot him. i love my .270 and it has worked sweet for all 5 of my elk.
 
>I like the Barnes TSX and
>the Trophy bond Bear Claw
>too bad the Bear Claw
>is no longer being made.
>


What do you mean? Speer is making the bear claw bullet. I also can't wait for the boattail- tipped version to become avaliable for hand loading! High BC and bear claw performance is quite a combination if you ask me.
 
I have no experience in shooting elk but will throw in my 2 cents on shooting deer.I have used 243,308,44 mag,and 7mm mag.Used an 80 gr HP 243 at 20 yds and the deer almost flipped.Used 100 gr in same gun up to 200yds---deadly never going more than 20-25 yds.Used a 150 gr 308 at about 100yds ---took out heart and deer ran over 200yds before falling.Have shot deer through the neck with the 308 and have them drop on spot.44 mag 240 gr HP at about 50 yd through lungs ---deer stands there a few seconds and keels over.140lb doe at 290 yds with 7mm mag through the lower neck and just rolled over dead.One fascinating thing I have seen is this: Was helping a new hunter out in my treestand.A bunch of deer came running across the field .I had binocs on them and told him to wait till I told him to shoot.I yelled and stopped a 6 pt.At the crack of the shot ----deer was coming head on---I actually seen the hair part on the front of the chest and it looked like someone put an airhose in his mouth and gave him a big shot of air.I swear I could see him swell up then down as the shot hit him.
 
If you want to use calibers under .30 on elk, pay extra careful attention to bullet selection.

I'm sold on the Nosler Accubonds. Why? I think they offer a great combination of expansion and penetration. They are a lead core bullet, which means small fragments will break off from the bullet and create a larger wound channel. But they also have a bonded core, which will hold together, in my experience, through heavy elk bones at high velocity. The copper bullets, like the Barnes X, doesn't have the lead core to fragment and create a quicker kill. I will out-penetrate the Accubond, but the accubond will penetrate sufficiently on any shot that hits an elk in the front half. It also beats the older Nosler Partition because it expands to a larger frontal diameter.
 
OK Bigfin, interesting article and comments you touch on two of my favorite points when it comes to this topic--Accuracy and placement. Rarely do you see the two combined in print. Bullet performance in my opinion is of less value compared to accuracy and placement.

1. I am astounded at how much people talk about bullet performance (mushrooms, weight retention, BC) and how little they talk about bullet placement (Accuracy!!).

2. Think about everything you posted regarding tearing, compression, compaction, wounding etc and put it in the context of the high should shot. I really believe that is the best place to shoot an animal. High shoulder gets the shockwave by the spine and the bullet into the lungs if its done right.
 
Since we are talking about bullet performance too I have some good friends that shoot 7mm STW's. They shoot 162gr. Hornady A-Max bullets. Very accurate bullet with a BC of about .640 I think. They have been using them for deer hunting and let me tell you anything that bullet hits is TRASH! And they can put their shot about anywhere they want it!

I called Hornady and asked them about using the bullet as a big game bullet and they didn't recommend it. But said it was super accurate and you should have no problem hitting your target with it. I've seen some of the deer they have shot and several had 4" diameter exit wounds.

Seems like maybe the A-Max and the Berger VLD's may be the ticket.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-08 AT 07:01PM (MST)[p]Well,
FYI I am shooting 160 gr Accubonds in my 7mm RUM. But, I have seen 1st hand what the A-max will do to deer & I realize this thread is about elk but I was just saying....
The best of the west boys have proven what the Berger VLD will do to elk.
 
I shot my bull this year with my .270 at about 150 yards and dropped him right in his tracks. Thats enough power for me!
bowhunter3,
Go big or go home
 

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