Spider Bull generates concern

D

doodah

Guest
the following article appeared in the outdoor section of the Sunday (Nov 9th) Oregonian:

RECORD SPIDER BULL ELK GENERATES CONCERN ABOUT COMMERCIALIZATION

"The pending world record elk, shot in Utah in September, is raising eyebrows for its size as well as concerns for the direction of trophy hunting, Rich Landers of the (Spokane) Spokesman Review writes.

Known as the "spider bull", the elk taken in Utah's Monroe Mountain unit - one of the state's most coveted trophy units - had a green score of just more than 500 points of antler mass on the Boone and Crockett scale.

The bull was killed by Denny Austad of Ammon, Idaho, who invested nearly $170,000 in a Utah Governor's tag, which allows the holder to hunt with any weapon in any open unit in the state.

A Washington record bull elk was taken in the Blue Mountains in September by a hunter who paid $65,000 for the Governor's tag. States auction these special tags in fundraisers for elk management.

"The Spider Bull represents a troubling trend," said Andrew McKean, hunting editor for Outdoor Life magazine.

Wildlife is becoming commercialized in high-bid auctions and programs that give landowners and outfitters the rights to sell tags for hunting trophies on their property, McKean wrote in his blog on the magazine's Web site.

"Austad had the help of a profit-minded outfitter and a heap of pay-rolled guides," he said, suggesting that the record books should make distinctions. "I will argue until I die that his achievement is less remarkable than a do-it-yourself hunter who invests a season hunting hard." END

IMO, this is the first year that I'm aware of in the last 10 years in the western United States, where any Governor's tag hunter has killed a world record elk or deer. These Governor's tags(auction and raffle) have raised over $4,000,000 in Arizona alone since 2000 and not one of those tag holders has yet to kill a world record elk or deer.

According to the most recent issue of Hunting Illustrated, there are over 700,000 elk hunters in the U.S. who spend over $915,000,000 annually on elk hunting. So much for the motives of the evil profit-minded folks who sell elk hunters everything from pick-ups to ammo to horse feed. Maybe if we could just get every elk hunter to build his own rifle or make his own bow or invent his own optics, we could really makes these hunts DIY's. And most of the DIY hunters I know usually have what I call a DIYWFand/orF...Do it yourself with family and/or friends.

Congrats to Denny Austad, the Mossback crew and all those other profit-minded outfitters with pay-rolled guides who assist thousands of elk and deer hunters every year to adhieve their dream hunt, wherever and whatever it may be.
 
So what side of the fence are you on? For the books or not allowed in the books?
 
"who assist thousands of elk and deer hunters every year to adhieve their dream hunt, wherever and whatever it may be."

haha! That sounds like factual reporting..

I had read this article. I also hear that a few people in Utah's big game management were not to happy reading it. There is supposed to be a a counter article written to it. I wonder if it will happen?

And I agree, Boone-Crockett needs to make a ruling. I wonder if they will follow trend in years past? or not?

buck1.gif


Later, Brandon
 
I think the point he is trying to make is that it kind of takes away from the accomplishment when you can just hire an army of guides to stake out a bull for you until you arrive. I know that is not exactly how it happened on this hunt but he was led to the bull after someone else found it. Where is the hunters ability to hunt? I want to be known as good HUNTER in the field. If you want to just be a good shooter then go to the range.

I could care less about reading the story on the harvest of that bull.

Mike Henne
 
At what point does it become less that fair chase. When you have a network of spotters and guides working for you, I think that is when you rule out fair chase. I agree that this achievement is less remarkable. Just my opinion.
 
The book, contests, television, internet forums...all have done nothing but commercialize hunting, especially in the west.

A step in the right direction would be to abolish landowner tags, and governor tags. Pretty disgusting that 90% of the hunters have to wait in line to hunt, the rest just get out their checkbooks.

I have never been a big fan of outfitters guiding on public land, at least in the lower 48, and non-wilderness areas.

(flamesuit ready).
 
You just don't get it do you. What's the difference between a ranch raised elk and a Monroe elk in this situation.

Ranch raised Elk roam on somewhere between 700 to 5000 archers surrounded by a twelve foot fence. Ranch raised Elk are feed high nutrition feed to enhance antler growth. Ranch raised Elk hunting are guided. Ranch raised elk you pay ten's of thousands to take trophies.

So the differences are
1- 12 foot fence.
2- Enhanced foods to improve antler growth.

In my opinion boarder patrol (Fish and game) make up for the twelve foot fence.

In my opinion this elk did not go from a 400 (and you would have heard of a 400 class bull last year of this nature) class bull to a 500 and 4/8 bull over night. No one has seen him before.

In my opinion this is not fare chase and he should not be allowed in the books. It's all about the all mighty dollar.
What kind of a hunt is that.

By the way, nice trophy room. You are one hell of a hunter!
Oh, and I need a job:)
 
This would be Obama's fix...Two B&C books...one for the guys who make over 250k and one for the guys who make under 250k...and why he's at it he can buy the Gov. tag with fed tax money and give it to poorest guy he can find without a gun...that's the american way anymore.
 
spikehunter1972 can you verify that every bull on that mountain has been seen and studied or documented by some authority that can judge inches of horn on the hoof correctly and that every shed horn on the mountain has been picked up? If your answer is no then is it okay for me to assume you're assuming?
 
I wasn't much of a fan of Outdoor Life, now I will NEVER be. Telling only one side of an issue and pitting hunter against hunter in a national magazine is beyond STUPID! This does more to hurt hunting than what they claim to be upset about. Oh the irony.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
"I wasn't much of a fan of Outdoor Life, now I will NEVER be. Telling only one side of an issue and pitting hunter against hunter in a national magazine is beyond STUPID! This does more to hurt hunting than what they claim to be upset about. Oh the irony."

Outdoor Life brought up some very valid points, regarding what western hunting has become. Are you denying that western hunting hasn't turned into a Cluster-F?
 
>Browtine, I think the article ended
>where doodah typed "END", and
>it is his personal beliefs
>beyond that point.

oh.. lol?

buck1.gif


Later, Brandon
 
"Outdoor Life brought up some very valid points, regarding what western hunting has become. Are you denying that western hunting hasn't turned into a Cluster-F?"

If it is a "Cluster-F" it's isn't because of ONE governors tag sold each year! Get real. Outdoor Life brought up a bunch of stuff right from PETA's website, I do NOT consider them a source for "valid" points!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-08 AT 08:36AM (MST)[p]"I think the point he is trying to make is that it kind of takes away from the accomplishment when you can just hire an army of guides to stake out a bull for you until you arrive. I know that is not exactly how it happened on this hunt but he was led to the bull after someone else found it. Where is the hunters ability to hunt? I want to be known as good HUNTER in the field. If you want to just be a good shooter then go to the range.
I could care less about reading the story on the harvest of that bull."


+1
 
>"Outdoor Life brought up some very
>valid points, regarding what western
>hunting has become. Are you
>denying that western hunting hasn't
>turned into a Cluster-F?"
>
>If it is a "Cluster-F" it's
>isn't because of ONE governors
>tag sold each year! Get
>real. Outdoor Life brought up
>a bunch of stuff right
>from PETA's website, I do
>NOT consider them a source
>for "valid" points!
>
>PRO
>
>Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy
>and opportunity hunts throughout the
>state of Utah.

PETA'S web site,

give me a break.
 
Those other bulls in that video better be careful. They all probably just earned bullseyes from Doyle's crew too.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-08 AT 10:09AM (MST)[p]I wonder if any of you read both the articles. I also wonder how many of you read the articles with open minds, with a thought for the future. If the article is read for what it is an editorial I believe it is very well done. For every issue there is always two sides, unfortuantely there seems to be some who only agree if the material agrees with there side. Unfortunately those folks never progress as they are stuck in their own rut. I think the articles did a very good job of pointing out that the spider bull is indeed a magnificent specimen, taken under legal circumstances, by a well deserving sportsman. I also believe specifically the second article asks some very timely and important questions,IMO. Simply is wildlife management and hunting in general moving away from the system we grew up with to a system similar to the European model. I would suggest you ask yourself a this question if huting changes as much in the next twenty years as it has in the last will it be the hunting your grandfather knew. I would prefer my grandkids enjoyed the same opportunity I had rather than reading of the opportunity of the elite like children in Europe. One thing even PRO can not argue with is the question is it legal for a public resource to be monopolized. In some instances current perks given to specific groups has monoplozed our wildlife. It was interesting/unfortunate to watch as CWMU was high fenced this summer so that it could be turned into a hunting ranch. Granted most of the animals on the ranch were privately purchased. However, it is well known there are still public animals fenced in. Turkeys which can breach the fence will now be no longer availabe to the public as they find refuge.
I believe that a credible well respected publication has brought an issue up that should be visited. I also believe anyone who tries to discredit such a publication needs to pull there head out of the sand. Afterall I believe the ability to voice and print such opinions is a key principle of our constitution and in protecting public resources.
 
"I believe that a credible well respected publication has brought an issue up that should be visited. I also believe anyone who tries to discredit such a publication needs to pull there head out of the sand. Afterall I believe the ability to voice and print such opinions is a key principle of our constitution and in protecting public resources."

I believe I should have the SAME ability to voice and print MY opinions for the SAME key principle you speak of. It goes BOTH ways, not just 'your' way.

I tire of the talk of how we are becoming Europe. It is little more than Chicken Little scare tactics. The spider bull did NOTHING to affect your/my hunting for 2008 or into the future. What this article does is attempt to give validity to the rumors about this bull from unverified sources, such as some in this thread about it being a ranch bull, which even the 'wise' mulepacker asserted is likely. Now that he is dead and DNA tests have PROVEN he was a wild elk, the stories still circulate. This 'editorial' helps the rumor mill, which HURTS hunting. Blaming the 'Europeanization' of hunting on the Governors tag is nonsensical, and causes division among hunters, which is the biggest threat to hunting.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>>http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj145/thebonecollector_4/?action=view?t=Spidermanforwebsite.flv
>>
>>Just wondering if any of you
>>had seen this footage tines
>>up has of Spidey. At
>>the end of this video,
>>he walks 50 yards outside
>>somebody's camp...interesting.
>>
>>
>>
snipersmilie.gif

>>one shot
>
>
>Dude, that is awsome. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Wild
>SOB is'nt he:)

A 500 4/8 Bull elk walking thru some camp????????? Now I really call bull #####. Is there a shackle on his leg? I could not tell.
 
>A 500 4/8 Bull elk walking
>thru some camp????????? Now I
>really call bull #####. Is
>there a shackle on his
>leg? I could not tell.

I take it you haven't spent much time in the hills during the SUMMER looking at elk. That explains your twisted views on this subject.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
"I wasn't much of a fan of Outdoor Life, now I will NEVER be. Telling only one side of an issue and pitting hunter against hunter in a national magazine is beyond STUPID! This does more to hurt hunting than what they claim to be upset about. Oh the irony."

Pro answer the question have you read the "two" part series of articles on the Spider Bull?

It is interesting I spent this past saturday volunteering for the DWR, during the day I visited with some key DWR and Wildlfie Board personnel. One of the items we discussed was the views presented in this article and the ramifiacations of this view point. It appears that many are becoming concerned with the direction that "conservation" programs/permits are taking wildlife management and opportunity. In fact in the past two years I have attended seminars, read numerous articles and viewed a documentary on this issue by numerous nationally recognized hunter organizations so I would believe the concern over privatizing public reasources is a little more than scare tactics. IMO it is foresight to try and prevent a turn that may be hard to reverse.

I did not say you were disallowed your view point in fact I back your right to defend it. However within the ranks of informed individuals your use of grade school terms such as "stupid" and your obvious emotionally based opinions are getting old and offensive to many that were once on your side.
For someone who is the first to call foul when name calling is against you, you seem to forget that a good principle if not the "Golden Rule" is to treat others as you would like to be treated.

I recently asked the DWR about the spiders bulls DNA tests, you seem to have information they said was not yet available, can you tell me where I can view documentation on his genetic makeup.

You are correct the spiderbull did not effect our 2008 elk hunt, we both drew tags of our choice. However the 100,s who applied and did not draw a Monroe Elk tag may choose to differ I am sure they would have liked one more chance at a tag to take the bull of a lifetime. As far as a governor tag effecting our future hunting only time will tell. However it will result in change! I just hope that the tag promotes more opportunity and better quality for any and all who desire to hunt.
 
If people 'turn' against me because I believe an article was/IS stupid, were they ever on my side? I doubt it. Those DWR folks you chatted with are mere humans as well as you/me, so their opinions are just that, opinions. I just get tired of hunters being pitted against hunters, and those who think 'their' way is the only 'right' way to hunt. DYI hunters are no more honorable than hunters who hire a guide, it is just different. I have to wonder if those DWR employees have any workable suggestions on funding conservation projects if the conservation tag program was done away with. I also wonder if these are the same people recommending doing away with statewide archery deer hunting because of PERCEPTIONS! If so, maybe their opinions on the spider bull are based on PERCEPTIONS as well. Just food for thought. Now come back and call me out some more. I love being talked down to, it makes me see the 'other' side so much clearer.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
I have been saying it for years...end all auction tags now! This program primarily benefits a couple of high-profile guiding networks and of couple hundred wealthy hunters. Nobody should have preferred access to public wildlife on public land just because of an ability to pay. Private land...whatever. Monroe Mountain Fishlake National Forest...everybody should be subject to the same exact rules to get a permit, no exceptions.

The money raised from this program and spent on habitat is just a way to avoid all-out revolt by the public, it was the only way to get this implemented. The money devoted to habitat is so small it doesnt even "touch the surface" to benefit game. There is no way that these projects have increased game herds so much that 1000's of additional tags were allocated, meaning that there has been the same amount of public tags as if there was no wealth tag program (as some proponents of the program like to claim). Sure there have been some very localized benefits but nothing worth taking 6000+ public tags away and causing the trend toward privatization of wildlife and related disenfranchisement the article discusses.

These 5% of tags also put a disproportionate amount of pressure on the top-end animals (due to hiring guiding networks), the same animals that some are trying to increase the opportunity for all to hunt but not necessarily kill. I dare say that the 5% of elk tags sold to this crowd account for 15-25% of the top-end bull kills meaning that returning these 5% of tags to the regular drawing would be a critical component of any "increase opportunity without harming quality" plan.

-RPinenut
 
It is obvious that I won't get an answer. Anyway here is links to the two articles I hope they last for any that might be interested.
http://www.outdoorlife.com/article/Hunting/New-World-Record-Elk

http://www.outdoorlife.com/article/Hunting/Spider-Bull-world-record-elk-part-2

Pro, I apologize if you beleive I am talking down to you, that is not my intent. I am simply trying to point out there is a differnt side and that Utah is under a magnifying glass. Whether we agree or not is irrelative, iti s happening.
 
>>A 500 4/8 Bull elk walking
>>thru some camp????????? Now I
>>really call bull #####. Is
>>there a shackle on his
>>leg? I could not tell.
>
>I take it you haven't spent
>much time in the hills
>during the SUMMER looking at
>elk. That explains your twisted
>views on this subject.
>
>PRO
>
>Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy
>and opportunity hunts throughout the
>state of Utah.

Spent lots of time in the hills all year all seasons.... Never had that happen. I take that back, once in Yellow Stone we had about a 340 to 350bull walk across the road in front of us.
 
>>I take it you haven't spent
>>much time in the hills
>>during the SUMMER looking at
>>elk. That explains your twisted
>>views on this subject.
>>
>>PRO
>>
>>Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy
>>and opportunity hunts throughout the
>>state of Utah.
>
>Spent lots of time in the
>hills all year all seasons....
>Never had that happen. I
>take that back, once in
>Yellow Stone we had about
>a 340 to 350bull walk
>across the road in front
>of us.

I can't count the number of times I have been within spitting distance of 380+ bulls during the summer, in the WILD. In fact, I get that close EVERY summer to mature bulls, also in the winter. Big bulls know when hunting season is on. Can you explain how this bull eluded HUNDREDS of hunters/guides for a month and a half before getting killed if he was a 'tame' bull? While you're at it, can you explain how bigfoot has eluded you for so long as well? Thanks!

MulePacker, I see this much differently than you, that is clear. So, I wish you well and end it at that. I stand by my view that pitting hunter against hunter is a MUCH bigger threat to the future of hunting than auction tags, or hunters hiring guides.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
PRO,

You assume we see things different, you assumed that I sided with the article, I have never stated my position or the positions of folks I have visited with. Reread your post about my conversation with the DWR saturday, I never stated nor do you know which side they argued. I simply stated that these articles have brought this issue into the limelight. I think we know each other well enough to know where we draw the line.

I would present this question for ponder.

When the first tag was taken from the public to be used by a private entity for the purpose of fundraising therefore giving the odds to the wealthy , did this not start pittting hunter against hunter? If that is truly your beef or concernn then you should adimantly be opposed to the conservation tags as they are a huge dividing line for hunters.

I do hope you read the articles if you haven't. Some folks have argued they were to supportive of the way the Spider Bull went down. In other words they see OUTDOOR LIFE as PRO trophy hunting.
 
HA!
Are we a simple-minded jealous group or what?
Spidey is killed by a "guided" hunter who purchased an "auction" tag, and suddenly the sky is about to fall on hunting as we know it!
HA! HA!
We, as a group, are becoming so selfish and petty!
If a "draw tag" guy killed this bull, It would have been a GREAT day! The almighty dollar would have been defeated!

Unless, of course, he was guided.

Oh no! Cant have that! The almighty dollar raises its ugly head again! That shouldnt count in the "books". LOL!
Even the "DIY" guy doesnt make the cut with the "holier than thou" group! What if he used a radio! Or maybe he had too many friends/family scouting for him! Not fair! He took 3 full weeks off of work! I cant afford to do that! Not fair! BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

I have NEVER hired a guide; probably never will. Not because I am guided by a "higher moral compass" than others; But simply because I prefer to do it alone, and more importantly,I dont have that kind of money.
I agree 100% with PRO on this one.
We all need to look at ourselves a little closer, instead of whining about others.
This guy probably injected $250,000.00 directly into the state and the hunting industry for the OPPORTUNITY to harvest this bull. And we are crucifying him AND his guides because they happened to be successfull.
PATHETIC!
Not ONE WORD would have been spoken on the subject had they not been the ones that killed Spidey. We all would have agreed that the system was working, gladly watched the State cash that check, and been happy to know that all that money that he paid will benefit our Wildlife, so that JOE THE HUNTER can be the one to kill the Bull. We all welcome the almighty dollar into the system, as long as the tag isnt filled! LOL!
The system aint broke, and the sky aint falling. A guy paid a ton of money for a tag, and killed ONE bull.

Congratulations to Denny and the Mossback crew! Thanx Denny for all the money that you have paid over the years for the opportunity to take a few trophy class animals out of our state. Hope to see you again next year...


------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"
 
>I have been saying it for
>years...end all auction tags now!
> This program primarily benefits
>a couple of high-profile guiding
>networks and of couple hundred
>wealthy hunters. Nobody should
>have preferred access to public
>wildlife on public land just
>because of an ability to
>pay. Private land...whatever.
>Monroe Mountain Fishlake National Forest...everybody
>should be subject to the
>same exact rules to get
>a permit, no exceptions.
>
>The money raised from this program
>and spent on habitat is
>just a way to avoid
>all-out revolt by the public,
>it was the only way
>to get this implemented.
>The money devoted to habitat
>is so small it doesnt
>even "touch the surface" to
>benefit game. There is
>no way that these projects
>have increased game herds so
>much that 1000's of additional
>tags were allocated, meaning that
>there has been the same
>amount of public tags as
>if there was no wealth
>tag program (as some proponents
>of the program like to
>claim). Sure there have
>been some very localized benefits
>but nothing worth taking 6000+
>public tags away and causing
>the trend toward privatization of
>wildlife and related disenfranchisement the
>article discusses.
>
>These 5% of tags also put
>a disproportionate amount of pressure
>on the top-end animals (due
>to hiring guiding networks), the
>same animals that some are
>trying to increase the opportunity
>for all to hunt but
>not necessarily kill. I
>dare say that the 5%
>of elk tags sold to
>this crowd account for 15-25%
>of the top-end bull kills
>meaning that returning these 5%
>of tags to the regular
>drawing would be a critical
>component of any "increase
>opportunity without harming quality" plan.
>
>
>-RPinenut
>
+1 Well Said
 
"I have been saying it for years...end all auction tags now! This program primarily benefits a couple of high-profile guiding networks and of couple hundred wealthy hunters. Nobody should have preferred access to public wildlife on public land just because of an ability to pay. Private land...whatever. Monroe Mountain Fishlake National Forest...everybody should be subject to the same exact rules to get a permit, no exceptions."


Auction tags holders do not get "preferred access" to public wildlife or land.
Auction tag holders abide by the same exact rules as the general pulic.

Only the Sportman tag and Govenors tag get preferred "dates", but most definately not "access".
And even then, they both share the same "opportunities".
The only difference is that the Govenors tag holder may be more inclined to purchase a tresspass fee to private land in addition to the public land, but that's only because he can afford it.










48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Should B & C allow it in the recordbooks seems to be one of the main questions. Let's ask it another way:

If you or I had been drawn for the Monroe hunt and happened across the bull and shot it, should it be entered in B & C?

The only way you can keep it out is if the answer to that question is no.

I think if we took a poll of "if you shot it, should B & C allow it", we would have a 99% + yes answer.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
"Ranch raised Elk roam on somewhere between 700 to 5000 archers"

..well, clearly it is only a matter of time before an archer gets hurt.
 
>I would never enter anything in
>the book, even if it
>was Spidey.

I suppose that makes you a 'real' hunter.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
One thing all the anti-Governors tag guys forget is that the state gives us average Joe's a tag called the Sportsman's tag(draw). It is the same exact tag as the Governors tag. Only one of each. That should be enough equal opportunity for most of us.

Another thing to think about...if we didn't have successful guides and outfitters I don't think we would get the big money we do for the Governors and conservation tags.
 
Wow, this is deep. Kinda of an outsider here but I would like to say this. Governers tags happen in virtually every state. Whether you like them or not, I belive they do have a place. What I dont like, and this is just my opinion, is that some of you as the great hunters and guides have and continue to do is to glorify the killing of very majestic animals through videos, magazine articles and such, and the biggest reason I can figure it is done is personal gain. Now, I belive if anything will kill hunting as we know it, it will be this. Do you actually think hunters are the only ones that read these magazines and watch the videos. NOT....Again just my opion

Mark
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-08 AT 04:16PM (MST)[p]Without trying to stir or start something...

"Auction tags holders do not get "preferred access" to public wildlife or land.
Auction tag holders abide by the same exact rules as the general pulic."

That may be the case for the tag holder, but we all know there are some guides who think that because their client has this tag it gives them preferred access to lands they have no business being on! All I'm saying is that some guides in the state of UT don't know the meaning of a gate with a NO TRESPASSING sign posted right on the middle of it! :)

EG





campfire2.gif
"A man can be hard to find in the mountains, but you're welcome at my fire anytime."
 
Slam,

I fully understand that the holders of conservation permits have to abide by the same laws/regulations as the people who draw the same permit they purchased through the regular drawing, what you illustrated is not what I intended to say with the use of the phrase ?preferred access?. It is the government selling the purchaser of the conversation permit itself that gives them ?preferred access? to public wildlife over a person unable or unwilling to pay for these tags. The wealthy?s preferred access to the public wildlife comes through their ability to pay for these tags and I think this is very wrong.

If you have $15,000 and want to kill an elk there are plenty of private ranches/Indian reservations that offer excellent fair chase hunts. I just don't think the government should be auctioning off permits to hunt public animals on public land to any individual unless the benefits to the rest of the public are so huge to justify the harms, and I do not believe they are.

-RPinenut
 
Fair enough pinenut :)

What is the difference between a "public hunter" purchasing a landowner tag, or someone purchasing one of the high dollar auction tags?
He's still paying for something that others can't do, and there are literally thousands of those types of tags in all 50 states.

It still boils down to "opportunity"....some can afford it, some can't.

Utah's auction tags alone generate very close to $3 million dollars a year for this state.....my only gripe is that not all of that money is allocated to our wildlife program.







48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
I would never enter anything in
>the book, even if it
>was Spidey.

"I suppose that makes you a 'real' hunter."

PRO

I suppose it does. I also wouldn't post it all over the internet, in magazines, take it on a tour, and hand out autographs. I also wouldn't want a film crew following me around all week. I don't have stupid antler decals all over my truck either.
 
Good for you, are you ashamed to be a hunter? FWIW, I have taken numerous record class animals and haven't entered any of them in the books either, but I don't have a problem with those that do/have. I do have a few decals in my redneck limo, and I am not ashamed of being knbown as a hunter.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
None of this is going to matter when the DNA shows that he was a roid bull, he wont make it in B&C, Denny will have spent a fortune on a ranch bull, and in the end it will be a said say in the world of hunting......
 
The biggest thing I'm against is like mentioned above, the average Joe waiting 15 years to hunt a unit like the Monroe while some rich dude can just buy a tag every year. I agree with that the money is going to "help" the herds but it should be fair on all ends of getting a tag. Also, it's VERY hard to believe that this bull has gone unseen or unheard of for years now. With all of the pressure from both guides, hunters, and shed hunters, why hasn't anyone ever seen this bull or at least picked up a shed or two. There's a lot of "grey" areas with this whole story and I sure hope they're laid to rest soon so all of the finger pointing and optimism can end. That's my 2 cents.

Scrillz
 
>One thing all the anti-Governors tag
>guys forget is that the
>state gives us average Joe's
>a tag called the Sportsman's
>tag(draw). It is the
>same exact tag as the
>Governors tag. Only one
>of each. That should
>be enough equal opportunity for
>most of us.
>
>Another thing to think about...if we
>didn't have successful guides and
>outfitters I don't think we
>would get the big money
>we do for the Governors
>and conservation tags.

IMO there's a HUGE difference between putting in for a drawing along with 10,000 other guys and just simply putting up 170k and buying the tag. What's the connection here besides they're the same "tag?" A 1:10,000 chance or a 1:1 chance if you put up the money. I'm no genius but there's a pretty big gap between those two options.
 
Pro, if you are really concerned about pitting hunter against hunter, then you better search deeply into your soul and your thinking, as the explosion of ?governor and conservations tags ? have created an environment that has not only allowed, but encouraged less than honorable methods of taking big game animals. When one allows those with deep pockets and huge egos to participate in what has become known to many, as :?wealth tags? you can bet the common and accepted way of hunting will be thrown out with the dish water. And that is exactly what is happening, and it is damaging hunting?s image and casting a very deep, dark and ugly shadow. And of course Utah leads the nation in this aspect and yet many think its okay as long it generates revenue.

Without mentioning any names, let me give you an example to which I speak and this happened just last year. And sadly, it has happened most years, in one way or another, since we placed so much value and money on the top of our wildlife's head gear!

A well known and wealthy man purchases a tag to hunt one of Utah?s once in a lifetime species----he contributes a huge sum to do so. To that point everything is okay and I can accept that and I think many other Utah hunters can too. Where things go downhill fast is the method in which he harvested his animal. A posse of guides (hunters) scours the area and find the biggest male of that species. They watch its every move and keep it under surveillance. The wealthy hunter is called, flies into town, and he and his entourage (a large group of guests and ?dignitaries?) hike up the hill so they can watch as he (the executioner) dispatches the critter.

That is far more like going to an execution at the point of the mountain, than it is going on a hunt. What the hell are we thinking? Where will it ever end? Are there no limitations if money, greed and ego are involved? We better all step back and take a good look at what the programs that were created to enhance and better our hunting, are really doing to hunting?s future. If we don't get a fix on this soon, it could well be hunting's reputation and demise.

It's hard enough for many to accept hunting and all the good it does. But when they see and hear of these travesties, it not only pits them against us, but us against ourselves.

Look closely at what happened to the sub prime mortgage scandal and what it did to our economy. Many were predicting the outcome of such actions, but it fell on deaf ears, much like what is happening to our hunting heritage here in Utah. If you are serious about not wanting to pit hunter against hunter, then you and many others in this state better wake up. It's a time bomb, that if allowed to continue its course will destroy our great states hunting.

Have a good one. BB
 
i dont post offen but i gotta say something about hunting these days. the real accomplishment of hunting today is not the size of the trophy killed but the ability(luck) of drawing the frickin tag.
 
Buglinbilly- its nice to hear from someone that gets whats going on in the big picture, thanks for the message
 
>Buglinbilly- its nice to hear from
>someone that gets whats going
>on in the big picture,
>thanks for the message

If making up STORIES is "getting the big picture" than I'm glad I don't "get what's going on".

The spider bull WILL be allowed in B&C, when it happens, will all you who claim it is a ranch bull come on here and admit you were WRONG and that you were SILLY? I doubt it, it is EASY to pass judgment and point fingers at the conservation tag program than it is to look at yourself as part of the blame. It is easier to say it is the 'rich' guys fault not mine. I am innocent, they MADE me feel this way, I have no control over my emotions, etc., etc.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-08 AT 10:02AM (MST)[p]pinenut said
>Slam,

>I fully understand that the holders of conservation permits

>have to abide by the same laws/regulations as the people who

>draw the same permit they purchased through the regular

>drawing, what you illustrated is not what I intended to say

>with the use of the phrase ?preferred access?. It is the

>government selling the purchaser of the conversation permit

>itself that gives them ?preferred access? to public wildlife

>over a person unable or unwilling to pay for these tags. The

>wealthy?s preferred access to the public wildlife comes

>through their ability to pay for these tags and I think this

>is very wrong.

>If you have $15,000 and want to kill an elk there are plenty

>of private ranches/Indian reservations that offer excellent

>fair chase hunts. I just don't think the government should be

>auctioning off permits to hunt public animals on public land

>to any individual unless the benefits to the rest of the

>public are so huge to justify the harms, and I do not believe

>they are.
>-RPinenut

Ponder this....
When I was a kid I hoped to apply for elk in NM every year. At that time we were required to pay for all fees up front in the draw process. My family was poor to the extent that I had to miss out on the elk draw certain years because it was too expensive. I used to think people who could apply for elk every year were rich. I would have given anything to have the opportunity to apply for elk every year. At least then I would have hope every year. In my opinion the government was giving elk hunts to the wealthy and it was allowing unfair access to my elk and reserving elk hunting for only the wealthiest of the wealthy. Now the tables are turned. I am the one purchasing guided mule deer hunts every year. Last year I went to Africa, twice, I went with slam on the most awesome muledeer hunt in my life two weeks ago, took my son on a guided antelope hunt with a ranch only tag, purchased 3 different ranch tags for elk this year, and next year will be spending more money than anyone should going to the dutton to hunt elk. Now tell me this. I can't afford the gov tag, joe blow in nm cant afford to purchase the dutton tag like I will be doing, and joe blow #2 will not even be able to apply for the public draw for elk because his budget doesn't allow for it. Now, where do you draw the line on unfair access? Don't you think that requiring anyone to pay for an elk license is unfair. If you want to make it fair lift the NR quota, make it free to all for an elk tag, and take money out of the equation period. That is the only fair way to do it. Am I right or not?

Your governor tag views all depends on where you sit financially, always remember that there is someone else out there that has it worse than you.

4918bc530d0e7097.jpg
 
Pro states, making up STORIES.
I can assure you Pro, what BuglinBilly says is far from fiction. I agree with a lot of what you say Pro, especially on the subject of better bowhunting opportunities in Utah. BUT I MUST disagree that BB is telling us a story. Especially since I KNOW first hand what happened last year on the hunt BB is addressing. So please spare me the BS that it's a story, and that people are just trying to give another black eye.
 
Its great to see a the topic brought up in a magazine. Pro you crack me up when ever anyone doesn't believe what you do you cut them down and tell them how dumb they are. You must walk around with ear plugs in. Every one I talk to thinks there is a problem. If DNA test were done and he is a wild elk great for the bull, that is historic! Lets see the results. Problem is the manner that some guided hunting is going. Nothing against anyone involved with the hunt, I'm sure they are good hunters and definitely a smart businessman. With that being said hunting is becoming big business for the rich man. Everyone should have equal opportunity at hunting wild game. Pro you need to get off your high horse of thinking your opinion is right and everyone that has a different one is wrong.
 
In regards to the "Big Money vs Poor Me" it is kind of like driving.
Anyone that is going faster than me is a Maniac, any one going slower than me is an Idiot, anyone going the same speed is in my way.
We all need to chase them naked with a rock,...but not a Big Rock
 
>Somebody show me some video footage
>of spidey in previous years,
>and I will BELIEVE! if
>there is none. I say
>no more!


Amen brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Let's see footage, sheds, pics or any other proof. Once I see this I will shut my mouth.

BULLS LIKE THIS DO NOT GROW OVER NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is so hard to understand about this?

I was reading another article that stated that a taxidermist from that area even said "He looks farm raised to me" He wants to remain anonymous. I imagine he doesn't want his name tarnished as someone else's is right now.

I keep hearing people have his sheds. Where are they????? Post some pics!

He is truly a large trophy elk, but he is losing credit fast as well as those involved with him.

As the old saying goes, money buys everything, even silence!
 
Where are this bulls sheds from the last several years?
has that already been asked? if so sorry but i don't keep up with everything.

I have a hard time thinking that nobody has seen or had anything to do with this bull up until this last summer. i'm not from Utah but i know that some of those guys down there are die hard! Someone has to have his sheds if he has always been a wild free roaming bull elk.


As far as the record book goes.. IMO i don't feel like his hunt is as rewarding as a do it yourself or even a hunt with less then 15 guides, however if it was legal and this bull really is wild then he earned the right to put it in the book.

We all have to work for what we have and what we get at some point. Some sweat and some don't. At the end of the day and whether we like it or not it all counts the same.



Bigole5
 
>Where are this bulls sheds from
>the last several years?
>has that already been asked? if
>so sorry but i don't
>keep up with everything.
>
>I have a hard time thinking
>that nobody has seen or
>had anything to do with
>this bull up until this
>last summer. i'm not from
>Utah but i know that
>some of those guys down
>there are die hard! Someone
>has to have his sheds
>if he has always been
>a wild free roaming bull
>elk.
>
>
>As far as the record book
>goes.. IMO i don't feel
>like his hunt is as
>rewarding as a do it
>yourself or even a hunt
>with less then 15 guides,
>however if it was legal
>and this bull really is
>wild then he earned the
>right to put it in
>the book.
>
>We all have to work for
>what we have and what
>we get at some point.
>Some sweat and some don't.
>At the end of the
>day and whether we like
>it or not it all
>counts the same.
>
>
>
>Bigole5

I totally agree with you. I am glad to finally see someone asking the same questions I have been asking the whole time. This is why I feel something is fishy. A couple posts up you will see a link to a video post of this elk walking about 50 feet thru a camp site, trailer, lawn chairs and all. This is not a likely to happen with a 500 and 4/8 class bull, at least not in any camp I have ever been in.
 
RECORDBOOK??? Who cares??? Big money, good for the guy
that earned it and spent it.

This ain't what this thread is about, is it??

When the kill becomes more important than the hunt we all lose.

Ask Troy Gentry
 
1972 not tryin to be mean but you have absolutely no idea what elk hunting entails. Just cause this bull has never been seen doesnt mean he isnt legit.

Example, we had six wasatch big bull tags to guide this year, not one of the bulls we killed had we seen in preseason, the bulls we did see dropped off the face of the planet and were not killed or seen. I have proof of this because another very well known outfitter, who is a member on this sight and considered by most to be an honest and awesome individual, was hunting them and he was just as unsuccesful as we were. Two of the bulls we killed we have never seen before in previous years both are very distinct due to extra tines and horn configuration. The biggest bull we had an opportunity to take was 100 yards from a campground bedded down with thirty cows, hmmm was he tame?? or maybe just smart??

Does this bull raise alot of eyebrows?? absolutely but all of the points that most have raised are worthless and flawed. As for the guiding issue who cares?? seriously because someone worked more or was luckier than you, you have to throw a fit and claim it unfit and unfair to society. Move to a socialist country where all is equal and every thing and everyone is managed on a even plane ok! If you dont like to swallow that alternative then work more save more and hopefully in the end you will get the opportunity to do what these guys are, living the dream and enjoying there prosperity in a way that benefits many others.

Please tell me i dont spend much time in the hills cause a few on here know me and they will tell you exactely how much time i spend and how well i know the elk on the units i hunt.

littlebeaver.jpg


Wildlife population control specialist
 
>1972 not tryin to be mean
>but you have absolutely no
>idea what elk hunting entails.
> Just cause this bull
>has never been seen doesnt
>mean he isnt legit.
>
>Example, we had six wasatch big
>bull tags to guide this
>year, not one of the
>bulls we killed had we
>seen in preseason, the bulls
>we did see dropped off
>the face of the planet
>and were not killed or
>seen. I have proof
>of this because another very
>well known outfitter, who is
>a member on this sight
>and considered by most to
>be an honest and awesome
>individual, was hunting them and
>he was just as unsuccesful
>as we were. Two
>of the bulls we killed
>we have never seen before
>in previous years both are
>very distinct due to extra
>tines and horn configuration.
>The biggest bull we had
>an opportunity to take was
>100 yards from a campground
>bedded down with thirty cows,
>hmmm was he tame?? or
>maybe just smart??
>
>Does this bull raise alot of
>eyebrows?? absolutely but all of
>the points that most have
>raised are worthless and flawed.
> As for the guiding
>issue who cares?? seriously because
>someone worked more or was
>luckier than you, you have
>to throw a fit and
>claim it unfit and unfair
>to society. Move to
>a socialist country where all
>is equal and every thing
>and everyone is managed on
>a even plane ok!
>If you dont like to
>swallow that alternative then work
>more save more and hopefully
>in the end you will
>get the opportunity to do
>what these guys are, living
>the dream and enjoying there
>prosperity in a way that
>benefits many others.
>
>Please tell me i dont spend
>much time in the hills
>cause a few on here
>know me and they will
>tell you exactely how much
>time i spend and how
>well i know the elk
>on the units i hunt.
>
>
>
littlebeaver.jpg

>
>Wildlife population control specialist

I have hunted elk for 27 years and also have spent pleanty of time in the hills. When we find a big bull, he goes down that year. It's not like I'm new at this.

All I want is to see sheds from past years from this bull. Many people claim to have them. lets see them.
 
Honestly guys, who cares. Who really cares??? All anyone on here should be concerned about is finding the next big one. Spider is dead. Dead is dead. How bout you quit yackin your big jaw Pro and get out there and start trackin the big ones for next fall. Next thing thats gonna happen is that pro is gonna start spewin all sorts of numbers and stuff and noone wants that. Pro doesn't have any friends on here so who cares what he says, I think pro is lame, bored, and needs to get a life. No one will ever make head way on here, and noone is ever going to agree on the same issue............Right???

I guarantee that noone will ever get through pro's thick head. Anyone on here know anyone stupid enough to even think about lettin pro guide them with such dumb ideas floatin around in his head. Man, I feel sorry for dumb ol PRO.

Just my two cents, but spidey is dead.

4918bc530d0e7097.jpg
 
>Honestly guys, who cares. Who really
>cares??? All anyone on here
>should be concerned about is
>finding the next big one.
>Spider is dead. Dead is
>dead. How bout you quit
>yackin your big jaw Pro
>and get out there and
>start trackin the big ones
>for next fall. Next thing
>thats gonna happen is that
>pro is gonna start spewin
>all sorts of numbers and
>stuff and noone wants that.
>Pro doesn't have any friends
>on here so who cares
>what he says, I think
>pro is lame, bored, and
>needs to get a life.
>No one will ever make
>head way on here, and
>noone is ever going to
>agree on the same issue............Right???
>
>
>I guarantee that noone will ever
>get through pro's thick head.
>Anyone on here know anyone
>stupid enough to even think
>about lettin pro guide them
>with such dumb ideas floatin
>around in his head. Man,
>I feel sorry for dumb
>ol PRO.
>
>Just my two cents, but spidey
>is dead.
>
>
4918bc530d0e7097.jpg


IF you don't care to talk on this subject then go to a different forum. That is what this Forum is for. NO OFFENSE
 
>So your sayin that shed from
>the bull will validate him??
>haha thats funny
>
littlebeaver.jpg

>
>Wildlife population control specialist


As long as there is not a twelve foot fence behind the shed then yes. LOL
 
>>Honestly guys, who cares. Who really
>>cares??? All anyone on here
>>should be concerned about is
>>finding the next big one.
>>Spider is dead. Dead is
>>dead. How bout you quit
>>yackin your big jaw Pro
>>and get out there and
>>start trackin the big ones
>>for next fall. Next thing
>>thats gonna happen is that
>>pro is gonna start spewin
>>all sorts of numbers and
>>stuff and noone wants that.
>>Pro doesn't have any friends
>>on here so who cares
>>what he says, I think
>>pro is lame, bored, and
>>needs to get a life.
>>No one will ever make
>>head way on here, and
>>noone is ever going to
>>agree on the same issue............Right???
>>
>>
>>I guarantee that noone will ever
>>get through pro's thick head.
>>Anyone on here know anyone
>>stupid enough to even think
>>about lettin pro guide them
>>with such dumb ideas floatin
>>around in his head. Man,
>>I feel sorry for dumb
>>ol PRO.
>>
>>Just my two cents, but spidey
>>is dead.
>>
>>
4918bc530d0e7097.jpg

>
>IF you don't care to talk
>on this subject then go
>to a different forum. That
>is what this Forum is
>for. NO OFFENSE

YOu are right, this is lame. Everyone has some doubt about it. Lets find one to out score spidey only next year lets due it the real way. $100 to the man or woman that wins. Monster Muleys will pay the reward:)
 
>IF you don't care to talk
>on this subject then go
>to a different forum. That
>is what this Forum is
>for. NO OFFENSE

And yet I am told to bug off, go figure. I expect all you naysayers to come back on here when B&C accepts this bull as the LEGIT world record bull and admit you were WRONG! Deal?

To think every monster bull has been located every year is beyond absurd, even by Mossback. How do you folks explain this bull eluding HUNDREDS of people for a month and a half before going down? Help this sap out.

stinky, I am upping my price due to you running your suck!

PRO


Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>>IF you don't care to talk
>>on this subject then go
>>to a different forum. That
>>is what this Forum is
>>for. NO OFFENSE
>
>And yet I am told to
>bug off, go figure. I
>expect all you naysayers to
>come back on here when
>B&C accepts this bull as
>the LEGIT world record bull
>and admit you were WRONG!
>Deal?
>
>To think every monster bull has
>been located every year is
>beyond absurd, even by Mossback.
>How do you folks explain
>this bull eluding HUNDREDS of
>people for a month and
>a half before going down?
>Help this sap out.
>
>stinky, I am upping my price
>due to you running your
>suck!
>
>PRO
>
>
>Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy
>and opportunity hunts throughout the
>state of Utah.


Not saying that at all, but a bull like him to not ever be seen before, come on.

But deal on the rest of your comment. I am sure they will let him in the books. Money can do anything. Just wish I had some.
 
The guys asking to see the sheds are idiots and obviously know nothing about shed hunting. Not every single antler gets picked up every year. I hunt sheds in that part of the state and every year pick up a bunch of white horns old and rotten horns that other people have missed. There is a good chance they are still sitting on the ground somewhere or even in someone's garage. If you have ever been down to some of the little towns around monroe you'd know that a bunch of the good ol boys down there don't even own a computer nor would they care to post pics of their sheds all over the net.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-08 AT 01:57PM (MST)[p]I think you guys are on to something here.
A new TV series called K.S.I.(Kill Scene Investigators). Immediately after the animal is shot the site is roped off. An autopsy is performed to determine C.O.D.(cause of death). Possible causes could be internal hemorrhaging due to bullet, sharp stick, or maybe genetic heart defect. A tox screen will determine salt lick type, diet, and possible illegal doping. Trajectory studies will have to be run to determine angle, direction and how many shooters,(is there a grassy knoll nearby)? The area will be searched for sheds, wheeler tracks, and maybe helicopter wash patterns in the grass. Samples will be sent to the lab to do genetic studies. Interviews with anyone within 2 miles will be conducted. Their motives and bank accounts will be examined. A genealogist will be called upon to determine linage and ancestors antler growth. And why? Because we need to know!
In fact I think I will forget going out in the cold, prop my feet up and see what REALLY happened.
 
Uping my price???? I should be charging you. Heck, most people would pay a fortune for the amount of elk hunting knowledge I will be parting with. After our little excursion you will definitely qualify as a top quide in the nation. Heck, if you pay attention I may be able to teach you a thing or two about elk management as well. I think the fact that I'm taking you guiding boads well for me. Shows people how good of a person I am.



4918bc530d0e7097.jpg
 
>But deal on the rest of
>your comment. I am sure
>they will let him in
>the books. Money can do
>anything. Just wish I had
>some.

So, you're saying the Boone and Crockett Club is for sale to the 'money gang'. Classic! You're killing me. FWIW, the Utah DWR has taken DNA samples of the bull as well. Wait, don't tell me, they have been bought as well. How convenient that you have an 'out' if the findings are not in agreement with your conspiracies. Must be nice living in Oz.

Anyone who thinks every big bull and every big antler shed is found is living with 1972 in Oz. With several million acres and lots of country out there, that is akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

If you want "some", go get "some", just as the hunter who shoot spidey did. This is America, go for you dreams instead of bemoaning those who are living theirs!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Stinky, how did you post a self portrait on here? The red tennis shoes is what I expect huntingdude to wear, not a 'hunter'. What is "boads" anyhow? Do you mean "bodes"? I am sure you're going to really 'edumacate' me on the hunt next fall. Just not sure if I will still be able to put my shoes on by myself when you have left.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
There are good points about elk sheds never found or this bull never been seen but unlikely. I would not say this bull is not legitimate, although it should be checked out as much as possible. Because it will be the new world record. Do you remember last year B&C said on their web site that no wild elk could reach 500 points when the high fence elk was said to be taken out of the wild? I'm positive mossback did nothing wrong or anyone else involved. But you have to admit he looks like a farm bull. My problem is the type of hunting by the big guide outfits. By no means all guides, only a small portion.
 
I dont understand where all this "bull has never been seen before" is coming from? This is a picture of him from a couple years ago. The guy who took it said he took it in the burn on the Monroe. People also claim to have his sheds... Looks like things are adding up? Not to mention the people looking for him for several months who are some of the best elk guides, hunters anywhere. (I am not just talking about MossBack. Some of the locals (Tines Up for example) had a number of people looking.
491b4c425db13402.jpg




buck1.gif


Later, Brandon
 
I don't think spidey looks like a farm bull at all. Most farm bulls have 'crowns' like a red stag. Also, what would the price tag for a bull like this be for a farm bull? Now, why would an elk rancher release a high dollar bull onto public land with a very good chance someone 'smuck' would kill this bull? Do you think this outfitter would be willing to risk his whole business just to shoot this bull, because if he were to be caught, he would be done as an outfitter and his videos would collect dust. The insanity of this is amazing. To assert that someone released a farm bull onto public land undetected, kept the public away undetected by the 'locals' for 45+ days, paid big money to bribe the B&C/DWR/locals/ALL other guide services, is stunning that adults are willing to drink such kool-aid.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>I dont understand where all this
>"bull has never been seen
>before" is coming from? This
>is a picture of him
>from a couple years ago.
>The guy who took it
>said he took it in
>the burn on the Monroe.
>People also claim to have
>his sheds... Looks like things
>are adding up? Not to
>mention the people looking for
>him for several months who
>are some of the best
>elk guides, hunters anywhere. (I
>am not just talking about
>MossBack. Some of the locals
>(Tines Up for example) had
>a number of people looking.
>
>
491b4c425db13402.jpg

>
>
>
>
buck1.gif

>
>Later, Brandon


With roughly 60 tags per year in the area, it took two years to down this bad boy? How many guides have been watching him? Two years ago? All the locals after and watching him, avoiding all the poachers? Fish and game fly choppers counting elk? Sounds like a lot of pressure?.And he walks 50 feet from a camp just before the archery hunt starts!

Ok! I'll take your word for it.
Matt
 
First, I am glad that this discussion has started, its too bad this bull started it, but whatever. I just got back from the Manti LE hunt. When I started putting in their were 1/3 the tags available for draw. There were no or very few given to organizations. That unit got really good, THEN the DWR with all its "money raised by these tags" started giving tags to everyone(banquets, sportsmans expo, etc.) and increased tags to rediculous levels. It became a 5-6 year old unit instead of the 6+ yr old unit it started as. As a result this unit has suffered immensely. The quality of bulls has dropped and the pressure has increased. The point is, THIS IS UTAH, the DWR cares ONLY about money. Ever see a DWR employee in truck older than two years old? I talked recently to a leader of one of the conservation groups and he said "nothing in Utah will be done because every proposal has to be cost neutral". This bull could be raised in a veal pen and shot full of steroid and the state will look the other way because of the ammount of money spent by the hunter, and the ammount generated by Doyle. See their are two ways to generate money in hunting, ONE- Create quality hunting, good animals, good access(see walk in access), and you will attract out of state hunters, and locals willing to pay higher fees to hunt, or TWO sell a ton of tags, create ways to sell tags for higher ammounts, close off thousands of acres with the CWMU rules which incorporate public land, DO NOTHING for land owners other than give them the finger, care little or nothing about good animals, and access. Rather than split the state into littler units to allow for better management, and micro control, be like utah and say the conditions in Fairview are the same as Salina, or Richfield, etc. Utah is the poorest run DWR in the mtn states. Ask the Idaho and Montana guys if they are sick of seeing us in their state. The DWR has become bloated, running from one "emergency" to another, changing rules before their is data to support it, allowing anyone with a checkbook to do whatever they please(how long did anyone who bought tags have to wait in between tags, WE wait five years). The point is, WE, yes WE have allowed money and commercialization to control the DWR. Go to a RAC meeting, their are 20-30 regular guys. They are easily dominated by the commercial assasins. The score is simply a way to brag, like cubic inches, caliber, income, bra size, etc. WE have to take back control, the handful of guides and buisnesses lobby, pay, etc. and we sit back and take it. GO TO A RAC. E-MAIL your RAC. Doyle and the others get what they want because they are active, are you?
 
hossblur, very well put. I will and do attend but it is for Northern although other regions are discussed.

How was your hunt?
 
I go to several RAC's a year, I have yet to see Doyle at a single one. What gives?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
The average hunter is starting to care, the nonhunting public that read about this kind of hunting are starting to care, and I care.

With the questionable tactics being used in the last few years involving gov tags being publisized in local papers, this is shedding a negative light beyond just the hunting community. Do you really think that when people read a story about the Nevada fiasco a year or two ago, the Az bull that was killed in the subdivision and the court case after, or now a world record bull that was promoted months before the kill. Did someone really believe this story would be precieved as positive by anyone outside the outfitting industry, that's just naive. Doesn't matter if it was legal/ethical, all people see is an army against one elk. If it was a movie or book the Spider Bull would be the hero, and so it is with this story, perception is everything. I can't believe that someone acually thought that promoting this bull to the public months in advance, creating an emotional bond and then killing it, was going to be positive for their image and the hunting industry at large. It's caused alot of people to take a hard look at what's going on, very few like what they are seeing. Again perception is #1.

Right or wrong this is what the hunting/nonhunting public sees by looking at the outfitting buisness in general.

Video portfollios of public animals being offered to clients and promoted on outfitter's websites months in advance. sometimes with prices depending on size.

Nameing animals, basicaly giving them a personality.

Using telecommunications during hunting hours that relate specifically to killing an animal.

A large number of PAID scouters, spotters working for 1 client during the hunt.

Finders fees.

Rumered confrontations out in the field, disturbing other hunters opportunities.

Questionable decisions or laws broken for a trophy animal.

Ariel scouting.

Maybe there's nothing wrong with most of this, but the perception is negative no doubt.

Some of these things are effecting other hunters out in the field. A posse of scouters roaming the woods without tags checking bugles have blown other's setups on animals they are trying to get. This trend has trickled down to the smaller outfits, wannibes, and even just groups of reg hunters. It's getting to be a mess out there.

The big issue is harrassment, confrontations, blocking access. I'm not accussing an outfitter of personally doing this, but I don't disbelieve someone that said this happened to them. Looking at it logically, I would put some of these instances on to the finder fees/bounty hunters. What is a guy willing to do to protect what he thinks is his pot of gold, if he has a big money animal located or thinks is in the area. An open finders fee to anybody with info is common. How many other guys are out there during your hunt, trying to cash in. Of course this is just rumers right.

I would like to know if a finders fee was ever paid on the spider bull, when he first was spotted this summer, when Denny first shot at him, or when he finally killed him. Was Denny and his guide the ones who found him at the end or was he called over by someone else. Full discloseur would go a long way to putting this to rest. The outfitter dissaproval will only get worse until things change in the industry.

Most hunters don't have a problem with a guide and client going out and hunting. It's the corporate hunting perception that is seen as distasteful by the public. And the Spider bull saga just threw a big spotlight on it all.

This isn't going to go away. With the negative publicity of the last few years and now the hunting community starting to express their distaste, the outfitters need to take a step back and make some changes. If they don't the public will, with laws and legislation. USO was fought and they ended up losing, I'm sure they thought they were just trying to run a business and looking out for their clients. My best addvice is, if you want to keep hunting like this. Keep your mouths shut, take your client and kill the bull, put it in the book and don't promote it beyond the industry, that is if your ego will let you.

When people think of hunting they picture a Norman Rockwell painting, with tradition and a fond memory of a Grandfather, most nonhunters aren't against it. We know that's not really what it's like, but the picture being repainted ain't pretty and could have us all fighting for our heritage.

So ya I care!

Kent
 
Krp, very well put! That sound pretty close to want people say. I do go to all county and state meetings in Nevada. Pro, I think you have swallowed to much mossback to think strait.
 
I think this thread is supposed to be about the tactics and permit situation regarding Spider's death, not another conspiracy theory regarding his life. Not that it matters at all but I believe he was a free-ranging wild elk, it is just that his death was a non-event to me considering the circumstances. It was just the pinnacle of several years of similar, albeit less spectacular, high dollar public land-public wildlife kills. At least he died in September instead of December in two feet of snow after being spotted by a guy in a helicopter or one of the hundreds of people with spotting scopes that would have been there watching the side of the mountain hoping to score a quick $10,000 (or more).

-RPinenut
 
krp,

Thanks!
You put into words my concern.

It does not matter if I agree or disagree, It doesn't matter if PRO agrees or disagrees.

The concern this thread and the articles are adressing is exactly what krp has related.

We are being scrutinized more than ever before, hunting is being redefined and we better look long and hard, if the new definition is what we want as hunters.
 
I can not beleive that someone elses accomplishments get blown out of the water.. Far more than this hole subject here different things are ruining hunting before this I mean honestly people make me sick this is all boiled down to jelousy, jelousy, jelousy That is what is ruining hunting it is human nature to be competitive I understand but I am so sick of hearing about the animals Mossback gets and then comes the bull crap oh he had roads blocked, he had private property marked all over the public ground, They spotted him in a chopper I could go on and on and on about things I have heard personally even outside of MM. You look at any succesful person any person and tell me there is not some jelous bull crap lie of why they are succesful no matter what or who it might be. I Just congradulate mossback and denny on the accomplishment they have full filled way to go guys I can't wait til you rub another state record or world record in peoples faces again!!
 
Matt,
Explain the book cliffs bull then? He was 426 net? NUMBER 4 IN THE WORLD... No one ever saw him either.. sheds showed up but as far as I know.. there is no footage outside of Mossbacks....


buck1.gif


Later, Brandon
 
>I can not beleive that someone
>elses accomplishments get blown out
>of the water..
> Far more than this
>hole subject here different
>things are ruining hunting before
>this I mean honestly people
>make me sick this is
>all boiled down to jelousy,
>jelousy, jelousy That is
>what is ruining hunting it
>is human nature to be
>competitive I understand but I
>am so sick of hearing
>about the animals Mossback gets
>and then comes the bull
>crap oh he had roads
>blocked, he had private property
>marked all over the public
>ground, They spotted him in
>a chopper I could go
>on and on and on
>about things I have heard
>personally even outside of MM.
> You look
>at any succesful person any
>person and tell me there
>is not some jelous bull
>crap lie of why they
>are succesful no matter what
>or who it might be.
> I Just congradulate
>mossback and denny on the
>accomplishment they have full filled
>way to go guys I
>can't wait til you rub
>another state record or world
>record in peoples faces again!!
>

We caught Saddam too. Look how we did it. Jealousy has nothing to do with it! It is the way its being done that is the issue. Mossback, go track Osama I hear there is 1 mill on his head!

Yeah, that's a bit extreme but the point is the same.
 
Right on Spikehunter. It has nothing to do with jealousy at all. It is people that cant handle that people don't like what is going on with the high dollar guiding of our wildlife. That have to say people are jealous. If your rich and want a 400+ bull go hunt high fence, nothing different than whats happening with these high dollar hunts.
 
>Matt,
>Explain the book cliffs bull then?
>He was 426 net? NUMBER
>4 IN THE WORLD... No
>one ever saw him either..
>sheds showed up but as
>far as I know.. there
>is no footage outside of
>Mossbacks....
>
>
>
buck1.gif

>
>Later, Brandon


Browtine, the 426 bull was out in the middle of no where, not on a mountain top filled with 4 wheelers and people all summer!
 
Ok, I think I have beaten this enough. The wheels have been set in motion for bad publicity on high dollar guided hunts. All the major magazines are starting their articles to publish the controversy of this matter and how it is leading to a path to destroy hunting in general. I believe even possible some of the local news channels will be picking up on this controversy shortly. There are enough eyes on this now that if there is foul play it will eventually come to surface. If it is a legitimate bull then wow what a great bull and spidy is the hero that out smarted all of us for years. But as far as how he was taken well that's not what I call hunting. There is a place in Jackson Hole Wyoming that you can just go in and buy the grand slam, heck you don't even have to shoot em and they are already stuffed.
 
The negative comments come from jelousy other wise who really cares! I hear lots on the bull being on roids, road blocks, choppers, private posted on public and so on and so forth If all this is really going on let me see some proof this subject has been here before and has been beaten to death I understand but this is really my first time putting in my 2 cents if the stuff that has been said is happening Oh I am all for getting it shut down cause it is wrong I don't need to go into detail on that though but for as many things as I have heard the wrong things definetley out weigh the right but there is no proof he has not been caught convicted and until I personally have some kind of a run in I am not going to beleive any of it. As far as high price guiding who cares what other people pay a guide if he pays 1 $ or $900,000 that is between the tag holder and the guide If money was no object to me I myself would be going on alot more hunts and at that alot more guided hunts. People say there were alot of people involved looking for this bull yeah I know there was but do you expect anything less for a bull that gross scores over 500 inches a world record , especially when the governors tag holder wants this bull. Whats wrong with that? You mean to tell me that if there ever was a chance at you obtaining something like the governors tag or the sportsmans tag you would not get a few people involved with it helping you?? Guarantee if I had either of the tags I would try to get all of the help I could get family, friends, guides especially knowing that there is a world record running around the hills.
 
>Browtine, the 426 bull was out
>in the middle of no
>where, not on a mountain
>top filled with 4 wheelers
>and people all summer!

LakeDrifter,

Do you know where he was killed? or just assume since he was on the book cliffs unit, its no mans land... By the way, where the books bull was killed was NOT "no mans land".. he was on a very popular winter range as well yet somehow no one saw him.

The point im trying to make is that it was obvious this bull could hide. He was on a mountain "filled with 4-wheelers" for weeks without being seen. The books bull was never seen either..
 
The Book cliffs is such a huge area with a large amount of elk in it do you think every bull on the books has been viewed with the human eye or gotten a photo snapped of him? There is a ton of nasty dark canyons and even private and Indian ground that borders the books maybe he was in one of them who knows a big old bull like that would definetley gain wisdom over the years too? I dont know that I would dare say that there is another bull as big as the 434 grossing toad in the books but the chances of even seeing a elk like that are slim enough let alone videoing. But I definetley beleive that there are elk 390 plus even over 400 some were out there in the book cliffs that have not yet had a person see there are to many nasty places in that freeking thing especially if one was to stay on the hill creek side were only tribal members would have a chance a seeing one out there anyway.
 

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