Let's Outlaw Finders Fees
- Thread starter dryflyelk
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Idahogrinder
Guest
Sounds good, but let me ask you this, with the extreme shortage of game wardens, how would this even be enforced? Theres no guides here in Idaho for waterfowl, but there are sorrya$$ people that still get away with the finders fee's and other enron like loopholes...
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SpikeHunter1972
Guest
I am with you. It would be handled in the same way poaching is.
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krp
Guest
There would be those who wouldn't abide by the law, there's poachers everywhere. Some would be caught by a disgruntled employee snitching or a sting operation, most would get away with it just like any crime. At least it would make them go underground, not be so visible to the public eye. The truth usually comes out in such a tight nit industry, even with loopholes opinion is powerful.
Kent
Kent
Not saying I like the idea of them but what are you really trying to stop?
Are you saying you don't like people getting paid to conduct a service for another person who doesn't have the time or knowledge to scout for a big buck or bull?
Maybe their life is rather busy with work, family etc... and they can't spend weeks every year in the woods scouting and learning the animals they like to hunt just as much as you or I.
This is still America and if there is someone willing to pay for a service and they have the money to do it, let them.
Not saying you are this way but I feel a lot of people that don't like successful guides and spotters are jealous cause they can't afford to pay them and they don't have the drive, time, money etc... to scout the time needed to find a record book bull/buck themselves...
Every time I tune into the web, tv or radio seems like someone is always trying to get a new law in place. For what we can't enforce the ones we have and 99.9% of the time we have more than enough laws in place to provide adequate protection for our wildlife. The majority of these new laws are just a pain in the @$$!
Thats my 2 cents.
Mntman
"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
Are you saying you don't like people getting paid to conduct a service for another person who doesn't have the time or knowledge to scout for a big buck or bull?
Maybe their life is rather busy with work, family etc... and they can't spend weeks every year in the woods scouting and learning the animals they like to hunt just as much as you or I.
This is still America and if there is someone willing to pay for a service and they have the money to do it, let them.
Not saying you are this way but I feel a lot of people that don't like successful guides and spotters are jealous cause they can't afford to pay them and they don't have the drive, time, money etc... to scout the time needed to find a record book bull/buck themselves...
Every time I tune into the web, tv or radio seems like someone is always trying to get a new law in place. For what we can't enforce the ones we have and 99.9% of the time we have more than enough laws in place to provide adequate protection for our wildlife. The majority of these new laws are just a pain in the @$$!
Thats my 2 cents.
Mntman
"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
slamdunk
Moderator
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I fail to see what it would stop, people are always going to be out looking for big animals, money involved or not.
It would just be another law that is brutally broken and would be full of loop holes. Another law like the early gathering of sheds that caused more to fight than it got out of enforcing it.
It would just be another law that is brutally broken and would be full of loop holes. Another law like the early gathering of sheds that caused more to fight than it got out of enforcing it.
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krp
Guest
piper, I'm not sure yet. Here in Az we would have to start with the G&F comission, organize a group and maybe raise money. Make a loud noise and keep hammering them, fight the good fight.
Sounds like you in Utah would have to go through the legislature, seems harder. We could lend each other morale support and if one group won in their state would give precidence for the other in theirs, maybe.
Laws are evolving all the time, I don't see why we can't make a change with hard work, happens all the time.
Kent
Sounds like you in Utah would have to go through the legislature, seems harder. We could lend each other morale support and if one group won in their state would give precidence for the other in theirs, maybe.
Laws are evolving all the time, I don't see why we can't make a change with hard work, happens all the time.
Kent
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proutdoors
Guest
Let's see, we have several thousand visitors to this site, how many of them have been PAID, or paid a finders fee? I believe this is much ado about NOTHING. But, it makes a few 'hunters' 'feel' better about their own existence, so why not?! Just remember, EVERY law/regulation passed ALWAYS has unintended effects on ALL involved, including those clamoring for the restriction(s).
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
slamdunk
Moderator
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- 10,389
......exactly what is wrong with a "finders fee" again?
What damage does it "cause" and how does it affect anyone in a negative way?
I'm guess this is more BS about the spider bull, or other "trophy animals" taken by outfitters with clients?
Guess i better not pay my real estate agent for finding me such a nice house!!
Man these topics get old!!
What damage does it "cause" and how does it affect anyone in a negative way?
I'm guess this is more BS about the spider bull, or other "trophy animals" taken by outfitters with clients?
Guess i better not pay my real estate agent for finding me such a nice house!!
Man these topics get old!!
I like Mntmans thinking " this is America if someone is willing to pay for a service and they have the money, let them do it" sounds like your making a pitch for anything goes, actually laws evolve all the time because the world evolves, wildlife is a finite resource and new laws are going to have to be implemented all the time to protect that resource, I bet if one western state passed this as law the others would follow
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isayNUNYA
Guest
I think outlawing people like your parents from breeding would be a better idea.
I don't know anyone who has actually been paid one of these supposed finders fees. However if someone wants to spend a ton of time and effort looking for a giant buck or bull because he could make some cash good for him.
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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
I don't know anyone who has actually been paid one of these supposed finders fees. However if someone wants to spend a ton of time and effort looking for a giant buck or bull because he could make some cash good for him.
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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
slamdunk
Moderator
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"wildlife is a finite resource and new laws are going to have to be implemented all the time to protect that resource, I bet if one western state passed this as law the others would follow"
OMG, are you seroiusly not using your brain??
Those tags are sold by the state to bring in money to RENEW that resource!!
I can hear it now from the DWR-
"Ok boys, lets put out these top dollar tags on the best LE units and hope noone kills those animals so we don't lose our resource."
HELLO PEOPLE!!
"Renewing a resource" is like pruning the tree!!!
OMG, are you seroiusly not using your brain??
Those tags are sold by the state to bring in money to RENEW that resource!!
I can hear it now from the DWR-
"Ok boys, lets put out these top dollar tags on the best LE units and hope noone kills those animals so we don't lose our resource."
HELLO PEOPLE!!
"Renewing a resource" is like pruning the tree!!!
slamdunk- one thing finders fees do is hurt some hunters chances of harvesting a quality animal, they also contribute to crowding of an area, also in my opinion killing an animal that someone else has given a name cheapens the hunting experence and the difference between a real estate agent and a paid game spotter is that wildlife basicly belongs to all the people in that state, whether they hunt or not, and so much commercialization of our wildlife leaves a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths, mine included
Cam@strawberry
Very Active Member
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yippee another everyone else is an idiot and im right thread!
k here is how i see it, there isn't a thing wrong with finders fee. Second slammy is right its a law that is impossible to maintain. quit whining about how it gives others an unfair advantage over the average guy. If you have a tag and your on the mountain you have just as much a chance as the next guy. this doesnt include guides or eyes or ppl just a location so it means absolutely dickie.
Wildlife population control specialist
k here is how i see it, there isn't a thing wrong with finders fee. Second slammy is right its a law that is impossible to maintain. quit whining about how it gives others an unfair advantage over the average guy. If you have a tag and your on the mountain you have just as much a chance as the next guy. this doesnt include guides or eyes or ppl just a location so it means absolutely dickie.
Wildlife population control specialist
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isayNUNYA
Guest
Piper, dont put nasty things in your mouth. Thats where the bad taste comes from.
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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
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krp
Guest
mntman, finders fees are a huge problem at least in Az. You do not have to be a licenced guide to collect, so it is unregulated. Offering an open finders fee will bring in an unknown amount of treasure hunters into the mix. There's guys out in the woods looking for big animals that wouldn't have any idea how or who to collect from if they found something, they just heard that they could make big money.
Just one of a few examples. During archery elk season, I was eating in a resturant in my camos, alot of people strike up conversations about hunting so I'm usually ready for it. After giving a father some advice for his young son's hunt another guy sitting nearby asks if I'm a guide. I say nope. He asks if I know any guides. I say yep. He says, I heard you could collect big money if you find a monster elk. I've been up here looking for 4 days and found one, I need someone to help me find out who to sell it to. If you can get somebody to buy it I'll give half. Now this guy was pretty scary acting but I was curious. I asked him, who was going to protect the bull while I was gone getting the guide. He said he would, he would tell me where to meet him at the elk. I knew what the probable answer was before I asked the next one. How big is the bull? It was a huge 5 pt on each side. I told him I'm sorry it has to have 10 on each side to be worth anything. He said, I don't have to have $10,000 like was paid for that gov tag bull in the papers, maybe a thousand or even a couple hundred to pay for gas, he needed the money bad. By this point I was truly sorry for the guy and told him so. That's just one experience.
Who knows how many are out there. Open finders fees are offered all the time by some big name hunters that would suprise alot of people.
Selling animals is common between outfitters, depends on who has a client that is willing to pay, and yes the client is the one that technically pays. To bad for you if you hire a guide and aren't willing to pay extra. He could sell his best animal and take you to his second best, makes money both ways.
At least if there was a law that you had to be licensed to collect a finders fee it would limit it a known number and the riff-raff out of the field some.
What will someone do to protect a supposed big money animal, even if it's only in their own mind? Scary. I've had some strange things happen that made me go, Hmmm.
Kent
Just one of a few examples. During archery elk season, I was eating in a resturant in my camos, alot of people strike up conversations about hunting so I'm usually ready for it. After giving a father some advice for his young son's hunt another guy sitting nearby asks if I'm a guide. I say nope. He asks if I know any guides. I say yep. He says, I heard you could collect big money if you find a monster elk. I've been up here looking for 4 days and found one, I need someone to help me find out who to sell it to. If you can get somebody to buy it I'll give half. Now this guy was pretty scary acting but I was curious. I asked him, who was going to protect the bull while I was gone getting the guide. He said he would, he would tell me where to meet him at the elk. I knew what the probable answer was before I asked the next one. How big is the bull? It was a huge 5 pt on each side. I told him I'm sorry it has to have 10 on each side to be worth anything. He said, I don't have to have $10,000 like was paid for that gov tag bull in the papers, maybe a thousand or even a couple hundred to pay for gas, he needed the money bad. By this point I was truly sorry for the guy and told him so. That's just one experience.
Who knows how many are out there. Open finders fees are offered all the time by some big name hunters that would suprise alot of people.
Selling animals is common between outfitters, depends on who has a client that is willing to pay, and yes the client is the one that technically pays. To bad for you if you hire a guide and aren't willing to pay extra. He could sell his best animal and take you to his second best, makes money both ways.
At least if there was a law that you had to be licensed to collect a finders fee it would limit it a known number and the riff-raff out of the field some.
What will someone do to protect a supposed big money animal, even if it's only in their own mind? Scary. I've had some strange things happen that made me go, Hmmm.
Kent
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krp
Guest
The difference between 5 years ago and now out in the field is like night and day. The added scouters, spotters, and treasure hunters has made it a mess. The copycating all the way down to just reg hunters because their idols do it is growing fast.
I have heard guides say they would rather just sell the info if they could find a money animal than tell their employer. I don't know if this has ever happened but I know some think about it. Looks like there could be a mess in the industry as well.
And yes, I have been offered finders fees. They can take a flying leap.
Oh, and that guy that was supposed to get paid for the bull that was shot in the subdivision, he was stupid and didn't collect first. Didn't get paid.
Kent
I have heard guides say they would rather just sell the info if they could find a money animal than tell their employer. I don't know if this has ever happened but I know some think about it. Looks like there could be a mess in the industry as well.
And yes, I have been offered finders fees. They can take a flying leap.
Oh, and that guy that was supposed to get paid for the bull that was shot in the subdivision, he was stupid and didn't collect first. Didn't get paid.
Kent
slamdunk
Moderator
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NEWS FLASH-
Now i'm only speaking of Utah here, not other states inluding arizona's finder fee issue.
There are WAY more outdoor enthusiests in those hills hiking, riding ATV's, horse back riding, stream fishing or just plain camping that put WAY more of an impact on wildlife than a kid without a day job out looking at big bucks and bulls....WAY MORE!!
A general public hunter has just as good of "opportunity" to take the biggest animal on the mountain in an LE unit as an outfitter does (key phrase here) "IF HE CAN PUT IN THE SCOUT TIME".
As an outfitter or guide, it is HIS job to find that animal for his client, its his chosen profession to make a living that way and it's perfectly legal.
Unfortunately for me, when i draw my Henry's tag, my scouting days will be on weekends only because i have to work my regular day job. And YES....i realize i have to contend with outfitters and guides being down there all summer long.
Am i jealous of that....hell yes i am, but i chose MY profession, they chose theirs.
Now i'm only speaking of Utah here, not other states inluding arizona's finder fee issue.
There are WAY more outdoor enthusiests in those hills hiking, riding ATV's, horse back riding, stream fishing or just plain camping that put WAY more of an impact on wildlife than a kid without a day job out looking at big bucks and bulls....WAY MORE!!
A general public hunter has just as good of "opportunity" to take the biggest animal on the mountain in an LE unit as an outfitter does (key phrase here) "IF HE CAN PUT IN THE SCOUT TIME".
As an outfitter or guide, it is HIS job to find that animal for his client, its his chosen profession to make a living that way and it's perfectly legal.
Unfortunately for me, when i draw my Henry's tag, my scouting days will be on weekends only because i have to work my regular day job. And YES....i realize i have to contend with outfitters and guides being down there all summer long.
Am i jealous of that....hell yes i am, but i chose MY profession, they chose theirs.
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isayNUNYA
Guest
Kent you are riff-raff in the field.
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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
LOL..Here we go again. How long has it been? This is not a big deal if it even exists. I know a lot of guides and hunters and none have collected a finders fee. I spend 40-50 days in the field each year and don't see the pressure you people talk about. Laws, laws and more laws, what are you thinking. The Dems will come up with a finders fee tax for sure. No way you can patrol it. Officer pulls up to you and asks "what are you doing?" "just enjoying the outdoors officer" "are you sure you're not finders feeing?" "yes officer" Then the guy goes home, calls the hunter, and says "I found your animal but it will cost you a 10k tip after he hits the dirt. I don't believe in finders fees, they're against the law."
The first time I heard about the finders fee program was about ten years ago, I ran on to a kid while deer hunting on the pahvant he was trying to get a video of a 400 point bull he said if that video taped bull hit the ground he would get $10.000 that was before utah had produced a 400 pointer, Ive heard that a quite a few big bulls killed by outfitted hunters, have been found that way, I guess to a lot of you its ok to do whatever possible to kill a big animal as long as its legal, but to me the sad part is, its now far more important to have money than skill if you want a trophy, the way I see it if this trend continues like it has for the last decade, Im going to quit trophy hunting in the western states in not too many years and thats fine because its my choice, but for a lot of reasons when it comes to hunting,I mostly feel sorry for the younger generations
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eyecrazy
Guest
It sounds like they just don't want to do the work to compet with the guide's. isnt that what they are talking about guide's finders fee same thing isn't. I dont see what is rong with making some extra money guiding someone. that doesn't have the time or knowledge to do it. It takes alot of time to learn how to call right and find animals so if you can make some of your money back why not.
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krp
Guest
I probably am riff-raff, at least to the animals, and I've accidently busted someones setup before. Probably called something worse for that. At least I was hunting and not scouting for monetary gain, one way or another.
If it just was kept to preseason.
Not made so public, it's a negative perception to the majority.
Kept inside the industry where you can control who is out there some.
There's some sence in that, Uncontroled activity anywhere in life will eventually be regulated if the majority feels it's not right. That's why there's speed limits.
Other forces outside of hunting have always had to be dealt with, this just adds more.
Quit the "open" finders fees and be more discreet at least.
If you can't see that there is a least some concern and say ok, we can give a little here. We will have to do what we can to preserve our own rights.
Kent
If it just was kept to preseason.
Not made so public, it's a negative perception to the majority.
Kept inside the industry where you can control who is out there some.
There's some sence in that, Uncontroled activity anywhere in life will eventually be regulated if the majority feels it's not right. That's why there's speed limits.
Other forces outside of hunting have always had to be dealt with, this just adds more.
Quit the "open" finders fees and be more discreet at least.
If you can't see that there is a least some concern and say ok, we can give a little here. We will have to do what we can to preserve our own rights.
Kent
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stinkystomper
Guest
I hear your pain mr rif raf. I was reading an article way back when mr john the guide killed that big gov tag bull in arizona. u know the one that had those thirds that went for ever and got it on film. the production company is lone sttttttt uh something or another by the mc somethings who killed the bull. Anyways, in the article(in hunting illustrated) he said he had located another gov tag bull but sold the exclusive rights of that bull to another outfitter. I know arizona has had this talk thrown around a lot. I agree that it is totally dimeaning 2 hunting. here's the problem. What the heck good does a finders fee do. Like someone previously said. who's gonna go protect that bull? R they puttin those suckers in a pin? don't think so. I think anyone willin to pay a finders fee is as about as dumb as they get. as for outlawing it? good one! anti huntin groups would jump on that one in a heart beat. Next thing u know all guides and outfitters would be banned. Next... the irs would audit every hunter to make sure he didn't pay for his buddy/family members hotel, or gas, or ammo. if found doing such when related to hunting would be illegal cuz it would be considered a finders fee. Honestly dude I feel for ya, but really now you gotta see how bone headed it would be to try and get a finders fee outlawed.
99% OF TROPHY HUNTING IS FINDING THE TROPHY the killing is the easy part(30-378). It still has to be hunted, right?
What most of you whiners really are saying is you want SOCAILIZED HUNTING and you don't even know it. This is the problem with America anymore, things just aren't fair enough so we have to "spread the wealth" and penalize the rich who create our jobs so we can just live and hunt. We just are not happy . We are going to be in big trouble when the majority are the road hunters who work for the government. IMO
Is it fair that somebody makes a living bounty hunting? What should really piss you off is when the Government pays them a finders fee. The list goes on.
What most of you whiners really are saying is you want SOCAILIZED HUNTING and you don't even know it. This is the problem with America anymore, things just aren't fair enough so we have to "spread the wealth" and penalize the rich who create our jobs so we can just live and hunt. We just are not happy . We are going to be in big trouble when the majority are the road hunters who work for the government. IMO
Is it fair that somebody makes a living bounty hunting? What should really piss you off is when the Government pays them a finders fee. The list goes on.
you finally got something right peak freak,socialized hunting thats what it is, we are hunting animals that belong to everyone on mostly land that that belongs to everyone,ie SOCIALIZED, tell you what if that bothers you so much why don't you move to Texas, please, so the rest of us can enjoy and try to improve upon our hunting adventures,
Cam@strawberry
Very Active Member
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wow piper your serious arent you?? This is america for a reason socialism is not a part of this country because its a democracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To say that we need to implement this is nothing short of insanity. This is the land of opportunity and some have more than others, but the point is, we live here, enjoy its bounty and are a whole lot better off than the rest of the world because of DEMOCRACY!!!! Socialism destroys goals and is thoroughly destructive to society, when everyone is on the same plain there is nothing to strive for.
This whole guiding and finders fee's, and its unfair to the world is a load of BS. Its all a bunch of whiners who know big fancy words and want to push their socialistic agenda down the rest of the worlds throats. Save it, work harder spend more time on the mountain, and kill the biggest animal you can, OR if your a 'true' hunter, forget the inches find just a 'trophy in your mind' kill it and be happy.
Wildlife population control specialist
This whole guiding and finders fee's, and its unfair to the world is a load of BS. Its all a bunch of whiners who know big fancy words and want to push their socialistic agenda down the rest of the worlds throats. Save it, work harder spend more time on the mountain, and kill the biggest animal you can, OR if your a 'true' hunter, forget the inches find just a 'trophy in your mind' kill it and be happy.
Wildlife population control specialist
>you finally got something right peak
>freak,socialized hunting thats what it
>is, we are
>hunting animals that belong to
>everyone on mostly land that
>that belongs to everyone,ie SOCIALIZED,
>tell you what if that
>bothers you so much why
>don't you move to Texas,
>please, so the rest of
>us can enjoy and try
>to improve upon our hunting
>adventures,
LOL...Your definition of socialized is way off. You might want to do your homework before you piper up...LOL
>freak,socialized hunting thats what it
>is, we are
>hunting animals that belong to
>everyone on mostly land that
>that belongs to everyone,ie SOCIALIZED,
>tell you what if that
>bothers you so much why
>don't you move to Texas,
>please, so the rest of
>us can enjoy and try
>to improve upon our hunting
>adventures,
LOL...Your definition of socialized is way off. You might want to do your homework before you piper up...LOL
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stinkystomper
Guest
Quick. someone report piper to the officials. Lets go castrate that dumb sob. We can't stand idlely by and allow someone like that to breed! I would try to argue the issue more but that is obviously pointless. Honestly, how does someone get so close minded. I even agreed with you on the fact that I hate people who pay finders fees, but I can at least conceed to the fact of the ignorance of the whole thing. You cannot even see common sense, even when it sneaks up behind you and burries its boot completely up your arse!
AWHOLELOTTABULL
Long Time Member
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- 4,357
As usual, I'm late on this one again! If you are truly interested in passing laws to "improve the herds", I seriously doubt that a finders fee would have anything to do with damaging herds. There are few people out there paying these kinds of fees as opposed to atv's, hunters in the field and poachers. Very few cases in the last group are caught much less prosecuted. What makes you think money won't change hands anyway. There are too many other things to focus on besides a guy who just donated to improving habitat with his license and tag fees in the state he's hunting in. And NO, I have never received a finders fee nor paid one, nor had a hunter I have hunted with pay one. Like somebody said above, if the guy has the money why should you or I have a say in what he does with it. I know a young kid that got a finders fee and put it towards paying for his church mission. See anything wrong with that???
It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
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ktc
Guest
AWLB,
You are right. I have been reading all the sour grapes for days. Lots of things could happen to benefit herds and finder fees is not one of them.
I cannot believe all of the conspiracy theories? The bull was wild. No one is dumb enough to try to pull off a planted ranch bull on Monroe.
I don't know Moss so I am not protecting him. I could care less what Moss does to be honest. Get a grip. Governor tags will kill the best animals. They usually use guides and they have months and months to hunt. Denny Austad hunts his way and I hunt mine. I am not in awe over his trophy room because he does it in a way I cannot afford, or hunt, if I could afford it. I hunted Dutton for 3 years straight and never seen Moss, his "posse," or anyone else that made my hunt any different than it was anyway.
Find something else to gripe about?
You are right. I have been reading all the sour grapes for days. Lots of things could happen to benefit herds and finder fees is not one of them.
I cannot believe all of the conspiracy theories? The bull was wild. No one is dumb enough to try to pull off a planted ranch bull on Monroe.
I don't know Moss so I am not protecting him. I could care less what Moss does to be honest. Get a grip. Governor tags will kill the best animals. They usually use guides and they have months and months to hunt. Denny Austad hunts his way and I hunt mine. I am not in awe over his trophy room because he does it in a way I cannot afford, or hunt, if I could afford it. I hunted Dutton for 3 years straight and never seen Moss, his "posse," or anyone else that made my hunt any different than it was anyway.
Find something else to gripe about?
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SpikeHunter1972
Guest
I don't think finders fees (within reason) are the problem, I think it is the tactics used after he is found that are the concern. Guide services such as "You know who" should be monitored and limited. Like everyone else is saying, there is no diffeance in the way this bull was taken and a ranch hunt.
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bearman
Guest
Spikehunter put perfectly.
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SpikeHunter1972
Guest
>You guys are coo-coo!!! Ranch
>hunts don't take over a
>month to find and kill.
> Does the Monroe have
>a have high fence?
>You guys seem to know
>alot about this hunt.
>Were you there?
>
>bearman,SpikeHunter1972 and piper are you guys
>brothers or cousins?
peakFREAK
None of the above, just good old hunters who call it how we see it. Can't speak for them but I would not feel right taking a trophy elk like that. And besides that, they just don't grow like that in the wild!!!!!!!!!! Hell, they rarely grow like that on farms...... Again, my opinion.
>hunts don't take over a
>month to find and kill.
> Does the Monroe have
>a have high fence?
>You guys seem to know
>alot about this hunt.
>Were you there?
>
>bearman,SpikeHunter1972 and piper are you guys
>brothers or cousins?
peakFREAK
None of the above, just good old hunters who call it how we see it. Can't speak for them but I would not feel right taking a trophy elk like that. And besides that, they just don't grow like that in the wild!!!!!!!!!! Hell, they rarely grow like that on farms...... Again, my opinion.
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EDGE_1
Guest
Jim you hit it right on. I have been waiting for your response on both this thread and the spidey thread.
Like AHLB I have spent a lot of time on the mountain looking for the biggest animals I can find. I have never been paid a finders fee, but have collected a daily wage for my time. Something I don't feel a bit bad about.
The thing a few of you are missing here is the fact that a law banning finders fee's will also be a law banning scouting. Have any of you spent time in the hills scouting for a friend or family? In the process are you not increasing the impact in the field? Maybe getting in the way of someone else scouting for themselves?
You go fight the good fight, but don't be upset when you find your efforts have as big of negative impact on your way of life and hunting as it will the guides. Not that I agree with the tactics involved in the taking of the spider bull and others, but another law limiting our time in the field will never help. Once you loose it, you never get it back!!!
Kevin
Like AHLB I have spent a lot of time on the mountain looking for the biggest animals I can find. I have never been paid a finders fee, but have collected a daily wage for my time. Something I don't feel a bit bad about.
The thing a few of you are missing here is the fact that a law banning finders fee's will also be a law banning scouting. Have any of you spent time in the hills scouting for a friend or family? In the process are you not increasing the impact in the field? Maybe getting in the way of someone else scouting for themselves?
You go fight the good fight, but don't be upset when you find your efforts have as big of negative impact on your way of life and hunting as it will the guides. Not that I agree with the tactics involved in the taking of the spider bull and others, but another law limiting our time in the field will never help. Once you loose it, you never get it back!!!
Kevin
AWHOLELOTTABULL
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,357
Thanks Kevin but I'm not touching the whole Spider Bull issue. I'm just glad he's dead. Now we can get back to killing realistic bulls again.
It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
E
EDGE_1
Guest
I'm not going there either. I simply like the way you operate and was looking forward to some kind of response. I seldom have anything to say, but this is one I couldn't drop.
eelgrass
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 31,437
I've read MANY hunting stories here on MM and in magazines where a person draws a coveted tag. The hunter takes his father, his mother, his brother, and sometimes several friends along on the hunt. They all spend time scouting and helping the guy fill his tag.
What's the difference between that and a tag holder getting help from a guide and the guides crew?
JEALOUSY!
Eel
'I'll keep my God, my freedom, my guns, and my money. You can keep THE CHANGE.
What's the difference between that and a tag holder getting help from a guide and the guides crew?
JEALOUSY!
Eel
'I'll keep my God, my freedom, my guns, and my money. You can keep THE CHANGE.
peak freak- I just don't feel good about the direction big game hunting is going, Im not that old but Im old enough to have seen a lot of changes, I love to talk about antler size and trophy areas as much as most anyone, but Im afraid that the the increasing commercialization in the pursuit of trophy game and our ever increasing technology is doing a lot of harm to the hunting experience that I have enjoyed over the years, Im also concerned about what kind of image we are portraying to the nonhunting public, RMEF is always saying 'pass it on" well I really believe if we keep going like we are there won't be a lot of those traditional hunting values and experiences to pass on
piper,
Nobody likes hunting tradition more than I do. Deer camp on the Fish Lake when I was a kid was my favorite three days of the year. It hurt to see us go to a draw system because a lot of traditions were lost. Then less and less deer and more and more people wanting to hunt. I've faced the facts that hunting will never be like it used to be. I hate seeing hunters put down other hunters and pick on guides for doing what they love. It makes me think there are a lot of unhappy people out there. I think you have a valid point, but I feel you are going about it the wrong way. 99.9% of hunters don't use a guide or finders fee. So I think you are barking up the wrong tree if you are wanting to keep your hunting traditions. The changes you want will not make an impact on our hunting traditions or values. Those traditions and values are passed on by US not our infamous outfitters, LE or Gov. tag holders. Don't get caught up in the little BS that really doesn't matter. Just my thoughts.
Nobody likes hunting tradition more than I do. Deer camp on the Fish Lake when I was a kid was my favorite three days of the year. It hurt to see us go to a draw system because a lot of traditions were lost. Then less and less deer and more and more people wanting to hunt. I've faced the facts that hunting will never be like it used to be. I hate seeing hunters put down other hunters and pick on guides for doing what they love. It makes me think there are a lot of unhappy people out there. I think you have a valid point, but I feel you are going about it the wrong way. 99.9% of hunters don't use a guide or finders fee. So I think you are barking up the wrong tree if you are wanting to keep your hunting traditions. The changes you want will not make an impact on our hunting traditions or values. Those traditions and values are passed on by US not our infamous outfitters, LE or Gov. tag holders. Don't get caught up in the little BS that really doesn't matter. Just my thoughts.
I
ICHABOD
Guest
I think I'll chime in on this topic as well....
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.....
And once again, I apologize for repeating what others have already said......
------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.....
And once again, I apologize for repeating what others have already said......
------------------------------------------------------
"Yeah, I'll shoot him"
Cam@strawberry
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,288
are you serious 72??? how do you explain how it eluded 100 other hunters through almost all 3 seasons?? get a grip dude the bull was wild!
Wildlife population control specialist
Wildlife population control specialist
"I've read MANY hunting stories here on MM and in magazines where a person draws a coveted tag. The hunter takes his father, his mother, his brother, and sometimes several friends along on the hunt. They all spend time scouting and helping the guy fill his tag.
What's the difference between that and a tag holder getting help from a guide and the guides crew?"
They're not being paid to follow an animal around all summer......big difference.
What's the difference between that and a tag holder getting help from a guide and the guides crew?"
They're not being paid to follow an animal around all summer......big difference.
buglinbilly
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,009
Slam Dunk writes ?Guess i better not pay my real estate agent for finding me such a nice house!!?
I just happen to have made my living as a Realtor for almost 40 years. I have lived and hunted on Real Estate commissions basically my whole adult life. I owed my own brokerage for will over 30 years, so I know a bit about house finding fees. And I personally think we ought to treat ?critter finder fees? just like the state treats home finder fees. And here?s how that works.
In the state of Utah, no can legally accept one penny of compensation, from the sale of ?ANY real estate, unless they have a Utah real estate license. Not only that, a real estate salesman can not accept a penny, of any commission, unless that money first goes through his/her licensed broker. And every dime of that money must be placed in the brokers? trust account with a full accounting, both going in and out on each transaction
So let's not eliminate finders fees, let's just require that any person getting a dollar from such activity, be required to be licensed under an outfitter,(broker), and that only that out- fitter can pay them. That way there is a money trail that can be followed, similar to other legitimate business. The cash payments and the evading tax liabilities would be a thing of the past, as there would have to be an accounting of all monies.
If either the outfitter or one of his licensed guides were caught circumventing the system, they would loose their rights to guide and their hunting privilege for life, plus receive a hefty fine that would go to the school systems, to help educate our children.
I see it as wacko to allow this kind of activity in the first place, but if the state is going to allow it, at least regulate it and collect the taxes that are being siphoned from the tax payers of this state and country . All other legitimate businesses are required to be licensed. Why should this activity be allowed fly under the radar?
Have a good one. BB
I just happen to have made my living as a Realtor for almost 40 years. I have lived and hunted on Real Estate commissions basically my whole adult life. I owed my own brokerage for will over 30 years, so I know a bit about house finding fees. And I personally think we ought to treat ?critter finder fees? just like the state treats home finder fees. And here?s how that works.
In the state of Utah, no can legally accept one penny of compensation, from the sale of ?ANY real estate, unless they have a Utah real estate license. Not only that, a real estate salesman can not accept a penny, of any commission, unless that money first goes through his/her licensed broker. And every dime of that money must be placed in the brokers? trust account with a full accounting, both going in and out on each transaction
So let's not eliminate finders fees, let's just require that any person getting a dollar from such activity, be required to be licensed under an outfitter,(broker), and that only that out- fitter can pay them. That way there is a money trail that can be followed, similar to other legitimate business. The cash payments and the evading tax liabilities would be a thing of the past, as there would have to be an accounting of all monies.
If either the outfitter or one of his licensed guides were caught circumventing the system, they would loose their rights to guide and their hunting privilege for life, plus receive a hefty fine that would go to the school systems, to help educate our children.
I see it as wacko to allow this kind of activity in the first place, but if the state is going to allow it, at least regulate it and collect the taxes that are being siphoned from the tax payers of this state and country . All other legitimate businesses are required to be licensed. Why should this activity be allowed fly under the radar?
Have a good one. BB
P
proutdoors
Guest
I agree, we should go back to hunting the 'traditional' way, like the natives did. you know, chase the whole damn herd off a cliff. You guys are killing me. Guides have been around since man has been around. The revered Louis and Clark expedition had GUIDES, Jim Bridger and Jedidiah Smith were GUIDES. They were PAID to put critters on the ground! DO you guys even let thought enter the space between your ears?
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
LAST EDITED ON Nov-18-08 AT 09:26AM (MST)[p]I personally don't have a problem with GUIDES. I just think that the accomplishment of taking this big bull is greatly diminished because of the perceived manner in which he was taken.
It's not realistic to outlaw finders fees.
It's not realistic to outlaw finders fees.
P
proutdoors
Guest
"I personally don't have a problem with GUIDES. I just think that the accomplishment of taking this big bull is greatly diminished because of the perceived manner in which he was taken."
The key word is PERCEIVED. Do we really want to make laws/policies based on perceptions? How does that benefit wildlife/hunting? Nonsensical in every sense.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
The key word is PERCEIVED. Do we really want to make laws/policies based on perceptions? How does that benefit wildlife/hunting? Nonsensical in every sense.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
True, laws are not the answer. We all group ourselves together as hunters, but i think that there is a definate split developing. IF the majority of "hunters" feel that this is wrong/unethical then we need to not owww and awww and promote this practice......police from within.
My perception of what happened is more negative. I could be totally wrong, but judging from the reactions of many here, their's is negative too. If ours is that negative, then the non-hunting publics perception will be much worse.
My perception of what happened is more negative. I could be totally wrong, but judging from the reactions of many here, their's is negative too. If ours is that negative, then the non-hunting publics perception will be much worse.
B
bearman
Guest
Peak, I start with you. Can you show me any where I said he was not wild or outlaw finders fee's. You are most likely part of the glory hounds. Pro, here you go again cutting people down. Do you really think people are against guides, no way only the manner of a few guides. The whole thing is about finding a way to fix the fair chase issue. It should start with the record books.
B
bearman
Guest
Ropinfool, you are correct. We can all start by not buy mossback stuff. Stop supporting what is going on.
P
proutdoors
Guest
>Pro, here you go again
>cutting people down. Do you
>really think people are against
>guides, no way only the
>manner of a few guides.
You must be new around here. Guide bashing is one of the favorites of MANY on this site. The 'perception' is guides 'cheapen' the experience. Funny thing is, those who say that have NEVER been guided. Many of my clients feel it 'enhances' their experience. I say to each their own as long as it's legal.
When we start managing wildlife based on perceptions we are SCREWED!
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
>cutting people down. Do you
>really think people are against
>guides, no way only the
>manner of a few guides.
You must be new around here. Guide bashing is one of the favorites of MANY on this site. The 'perception' is guides 'cheapen' the experience. Funny thing is, those who say that have NEVER been guided. Many of my clients feel it 'enhances' their experience. I say to each their own as long as it's legal.
When we start managing wildlife based on perceptions we are SCREWED!
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
I don't think the majority of people on here are against guides. I don't think the majority of people on here are against the people that work for the guides guiding their clients. Where I do think most of the rub comes into hunting today is from all those individuals in the field w/o a permit ruining the hunt for those that have waited years to get their tag (some innocently and some not so for monetary gain). There is something wrong with a legally permitted individual in the field hunting having the animal he was stalking being run off by a nonpermitted individual when he may have waited years to get that tag. You don't have to eliminate finder fees you just have to get them out of the field during the general hunt unless they're in the direct company of a permit holder and that will solve the issue and you could easily restrict that participation. Most wouldn't oppose this type of regulation because they would have the same opportunites in the field when they have a tag. It's sad that these types of issues even have to be brought up today but the fact that they are demonstrates that there is much more of this type activity going on than there was in the past whether any of us want to believe it or not. Every hunter deserves to have a quality hunt regardless of his AGI and disposable income. That's not socialism it's just being fair! For those participants hunting outside the general season on a governor's tag etc you could allow them more flexibilty since they aren't interfering with any other hunts in these time frames so it shouldn't be an issue.
S
SpikeHunter1972
Guest
>are you serious 72??? how do
>you explain how it eluded
>100 other hunters through almost
>all 3 seasons?? get a
>grip dude the bull was
>wild!
>
>
>Wildlife population control specialist
Three seasons huh????? Weres the beef pal!!!!!
>you explain how it eluded
>100 other hunters through almost
>all 3 seasons?? get a
>grip dude the bull was
>wild!
>
>
>Wildlife population control specialist
Three seasons huh????? Weres the beef pal!!!!!
B
bearman
Guest
Well I'm not new around here. Perception is what you are viewing it as. Guide bashing, listen to your self all you do is bash others for what they see as a problem. I have never seen on here anyone say guides are bad only a select few that use practices that are not fair chase.
When we allow people who are running their business off of our wildlife to control what happens we are SCREWED!
When we allow people who are running their business off of our wildlife to control what happens we are SCREWED!
P
proutdoors
Guest
Boskee, what do you think happens with family/friends looking for a monster for the lucky tag holder of a 'DIY' hunter? SAME exact thing you are complaining happens with guided hunts. The biggest group I have ever seen looking for ONE hunter was on the Dutton in 2007, there were 50+ people looking for ONE tag holder. How do you stop that? Did that affect others in the unit? More than me, my spotter, and client did that's for damn sure.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
HOLY C##P, I don't login for 24 hours and I miss all the fun and the beer isn't even cold in the fridge yet... 
PRO, I just don't think they are ever going to understand your analagy with guides/spotters and a whole herd of family out there.
But it could be the same people that don't understand why they haven't shot a 400" bull yet, while driving every single road in the unit every day for the entire season? ;-)
Ah heck, I change my mind; let's make a law for every guy that wastes gas road hunting by doubling his bill at the pump.
Then for the guys that shoot over 300 yards(rifle) and over 40 with bow they get taxed 200% on there bullets and arrows too.
Heck if you are going to fart in your camoflauge then you should pay a toxic waste fee too.
Just my opinion...
Mntman
"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
PRO, I just don't think they are ever going to understand your analagy with guides/spotters and a whole herd of family out there.
But it could be the same people that don't understand why they haven't shot a 400" bull yet, while driving every single road in the unit every day for the entire season? ;-)
Ah heck, I change my mind; let's make a law for every guy that wastes gas road hunting by doubling his bill at the pump.
Then for the guys that shoot over 300 yards(rifle) and over 40 with bow they get taxed 200% on there bullets and arrows too.
Heck if you are going to fart in your camoflauge then you should pay a toxic waste fee too.
Just my opinion...
Mntman
"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
Pro if you read my response I didn't say guides in particular I said individuals for that very reason. We have the same issues down here in AZ and believe me the guides aren't the only ones causing the majority of the issues. Some of the guides will leave other hunters alone to hunt and it's the regular joe's that are causing issues too keeping people off "their bull" even though they aren't hunting it at that time!
P
proutdoors
Guest
So, then what does 'outlawing' finder fees accomplish? How does it help wildlife in any way?
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
As I see it finders fees are not the problem...they just contribute to the problem. So whats the real issue here?
I think the problem is that so many "Premier Hunts" in the West are turning into cluster f#@ks. It is a problem that worsens by multiples every year. If you don't believe me just go to Arizona unit 9 for the early rifle elk season. There are 25 licensed bull hunters in the unit but each morning @200 people leave camp and hit the woods. This is nothing compared to what happens when there are 75-100 early archery elk hunters in the unit.
So you have waited and dreamed about a hunt in a premier unit for over a decade and you finally draw the tag. When the hunt starts you will be crowded while afield and hunt bulls and bucks that are pressured like some general season hunt. Some of the people afield are just mercenaries looking for a finders fee, some are part of a "team" put together by the govenors tag holder, others are simply trying to help their cousin get a biggen and some are just morons practicing their bugling. I'm not going to argue whether any of these folks have more or less of a right to be there. The facts are that they are there...in droves!! and there is an increasing lack of courtesy or respect for those that have actually drawn the tag.
I don't see a way for legislation to correct this problem without infringing upon the rights of all men. I also don't see it getting any better. The finders fees get bigger and attract more wanna-be's. The outfitter camps go from 2 guides per hunter to 7 plus guides per hunter. The average Joe figures this will be his one and only time to draw the tag so to heck with the other guy I'm just going to put people in the field to maximize MY chances.
If someone can draw up a law that will actually address the problem and not just the symptoms I would love to read it. In the mean time here are a few sugggestions:
If you are in a premier elk hunting area during the open season and you are not in the immediate presence of a licensed hunter DO NOT BUGLE. Too much bugling results in less bugling, duh.
Park it! Park you truck, your quad, and your butt. Drive only on main roads and do not hike all over the hills and valleys. Just sit down and glass. The "chance" that you might find a trophy for your friend/client does not excuse you from spreading scent, spooking game, or ruining stalks for those that actually have a tag.
Don't "claim" water holes if you are just a scouter. If a tagholder shows up be polite and get the heck outta there. Let him or her actually hunt there.
We all need to work together to try and curb this trend. New laws are not the easy solution. Let's police ourselves. Next time you see a trophy photo and the hunter is flanked by his team of 5 or 6 helpers just congradulate him or her on a fine trophy. Then politely ask if any of those helpers accidently or with callous disregard, messed up someone elses chances at their trophy. Remember, when it comes to hunting, the end does not always justify the means.
I think the problem is that so many "Premier Hunts" in the West are turning into cluster f#@ks. It is a problem that worsens by multiples every year. If you don't believe me just go to Arizona unit 9 for the early rifle elk season. There are 25 licensed bull hunters in the unit but each morning @200 people leave camp and hit the woods. This is nothing compared to what happens when there are 75-100 early archery elk hunters in the unit.
So you have waited and dreamed about a hunt in a premier unit for over a decade and you finally draw the tag. When the hunt starts you will be crowded while afield and hunt bulls and bucks that are pressured like some general season hunt. Some of the people afield are just mercenaries looking for a finders fee, some are part of a "team" put together by the govenors tag holder, others are simply trying to help their cousin get a biggen and some are just morons practicing their bugling. I'm not going to argue whether any of these folks have more or less of a right to be there. The facts are that they are there...in droves!! and there is an increasing lack of courtesy or respect for those that have actually drawn the tag.
I don't see a way for legislation to correct this problem without infringing upon the rights of all men. I also don't see it getting any better. The finders fees get bigger and attract more wanna-be's. The outfitter camps go from 2 guides per hunter to 7 plus guides per hunter. The average Joe figures this will be his one and only time to draw the tag so to heck with the other guy I'm just going to put people in the field to maximize MY chances.
If someone can draw up a law that will actually address the problem and not just the symptoms I would love to read it. In the mean time here are a few sugggestions:
If you are in a premier elk hunting area during the open season and you are not in the immediate presence of a licensed hunter DO NOT BUGLE. Too much bugling results in less bugling, duh.
Park it! Park you truck, your quad, and your butt. Drive only on main roads and do not hike all over the hills and valleys. Just sit down and glass. The "chance" that you might find a trophy for your friend/client does not excuse you from spreading scent, spooking game, or ruining stalks for those that actually have a tag.
Don't "claim" water holes if you are just a scouter. If a tagholder shows up be polite and get the heck outta there. Let him or her actually hunt there.
We all need to work together to try and curb this trend. New laws are not the easy solution. Let's police ourselves. Next time you see a trophy photo and the hunter is flanked by his team of 5 or 6 helpers just congradulate him or her on a fine trophy. Then politely ask if any of those helpers accidently or with callous disregard, messed up someone elses chances at their trophy. Remember, when it comes to hunting, the end does not always justify the means.
Pro, in my post I didn't advocate outlawing finders fees at all. My response was to the numerous posts about how to solve the issues surrounding the hunt interference which really seems to be at the root of the issue. You don't have to restrict finders fees at all if they aren't in the field and in those cases where they're not it's fair chase and nobody can have a bone to pick about somebody telling them and elk was in the millers creek drainage and they have to go find it. If they're legally in the field with the hunter and pay a fee then that's part of the guideing arangement. It simply eliminates the armys out there during the hunt causing the issue for all of us. Based on what you seem to be posting with your operation I doubt it would effect you one bit. But it will allow those with tags to hunt and promote the principles of fair chase.
P
proutdoors
Guest
Boskee, you're right, it wouldn't affect me directly or immediately. It would down the road, as once you go down that road where do you stop? I see it akin to the 'bail out' nightmare in DC. Now the auto makers are wanting a piece of the pie. Once you restrict how many guides an outfitter can have on the mountain, how do you not also restrict how many 'family/friends' one can have on the mountain? Then the nightmare grows from there. Legally, you can NOT restrict how many 'helpers' a paying client can have and not restrict how many 'helpers' a DIY' hunter can have.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
S
stinkystomper
Guest
If a diy hunter can take all his friends and family why cant a guy like me hire some friends. I've read numerous articles in the kings magazine hunting illustrated. Every time a diy hunter draws a utah tag he writes how all his friends and family, totaling at least 15 people every time, helped him find his bull. Everyone scatters out on opening mornging and the hunt is on. That makes me wanna puke. Why, because I go and hire two good people to help me out and everyone labels me as "the rich guy" who can't hunt on his own. Maybe "the rich guy" doesn't have friends who can afford to share his passion so he goes and hires guys who loves elk hunting as much as he does. You know, the rich guys get tired of hunting by themselves. Every once in a while it is nice to share that experience with some just as passionate as I am. Sometimes i get tired of talking to myself. I guess you can say I buy my friends, so sue me. I'm a dork and noone wants to hang with me so I have to pay people to like me. I'm cool with that. Call me a dork. Just don't call me the rich guy who can't hunt.
SS
SS
S
stinkystomper
Guest
Oh, and by the way, I'm not rich. I just spend my money in a completely irrational way. Oh well, you only got one life right!
I agree.....more restrictions is NOT the answer. It would be nice if we could police ourselves and hold ourselves to a higher standard, but, I don't believe that's possible. There's too much greed.....not just for money but for attention. Everybody has to "out do" everybody else.....it's the american way. We are good at taking something good and ruining it.
S
SpikeHunter1972
Guest
"UPDATE: The Utah DWR is wondering if the video of this bull is legit. None of their agents have seen him in the area he is said to roam."
Hmm. is the truth starting to revile itself?
http://gothunts.com/2008/09/17/huge-utah-bull-elk-spider/
Hmm. is the truth starting to revile itself?
http://gothunts.com/2008/09/17/huge-utah-bull-elk-spider/
S
SpikeHunter1972
Guest
I hope for BROKEBACK?S sake this bull is legit or their impeccable reputation is ruined for good.
Happy hunting.
Happy hunting.
P
proutdoors
Guest
>"UPDATE: The Utah DWR is wondering
>if the video of this
>bull is legit. None of
>their agents have seen him
>in the area he is
>said to roam."
>
>Hmm. is the truth starting to
>revile itself?
>
>http://gothunts.com/2008/09/17/huge-utah-bull-elk-spider/
So, in order for ANY of this be true, MANY members of THIS forum are part of the conspiracy. Give me a break!
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
>if the video of this
>bull is legit. None of
>their agents have seen him
>in the area he is
>said to roam."
>
>Hmm. is the truth starting to
>revile itself?
>
>http://gothunts.com/2008/09/17/huge-utah-bull-elk-spider/
So, in order for ANY of this be true, MANY members of THIS forum are part of the conspiracy. Give me a break!
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
S
stinkystomper
Guest
spike hunter. I'm sorry your mother didn't cuddle you when you were young. The article said the DOW can't find the bull. The there are tines up guys videoing the bull. Then the website itself said they had a friend who knew where the bull was and was going to hunt him with a bow. Obviously a lot of people knew where he was and were hunting him. So which opinion do you want us to take. The one that said spider wasn't on the monroe, or the one that said everyone is seeing him on the monroe and that he isn't a farm bull. Oh! wait, your friend was hunting on the farm where tines up and mossback videoed the bull. Shoot, you left out that part.
S
SpikeHunter1972
Guest
Just stating the facts. DWR patrols with choppers, trucks, foot, horses and chute planes and they have claimed to never have seen a bull of this nature on this unit.
Your on a sinking ship, it's time to bail!!!!!!!!
Your on a sinking ship, it's time to bail!!!!!!!!
M
MJRELKFREAK
Guest
i would love to do it full time. i dont wana guide at all. just spend time in the wild and video and hunt. and if i can sell some gps points great!!!!
S
SpikeHunter1972
Guest
>spike hunter. I'm sorry your mother
>didn't cuddle you when you
>were young. The article said
>the DOW can't find the
>bull. The there are tines
>up guys videoing the bull.
>Then the website itself said
>they had a friend who
>knew where the bull was
>and was going to hunt
>him with a bow. Obviously
>a lot of people knew
>where he was and were
>hunting him. So which opinion
>do you want us to
>take. The one that said
>spider wasn't on the monroe,
>or the one that said
>everyone is seeing him on
>the monroe and that he
>isn't a farm bull. Oh!
>wait, your friend was hunting
>on the farm where tines
>up and mossback videoed the
>bull. Shoot, you left out
>that part.
>
>
Sinking Ship!
>didn't cuddle you when you
>were young. The article said
>the DOW can't find the
>bull. The there are tines
>up guys videoing the bull.
>Then the website itself said
>they had a friend who
>knew where the bull was
>and was going to hunt
>him with a bow. Obviously
>a lot of people knew
>where he was and were
>hunting him. So which opinion
>do you want us to
>take. The one that said
>spider wasn't on the monroe,
>or the one that said
>everyone is seeing him on
>the monroe and that he
>isn't a farm bull. Oh!
>wait, your friend was hunting
>on the farm where tines
>up and mossback videoed the
>bull. Shoot, you left out
>that part.
>
>
Sinking Ship!
eelgrass
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 31,437
You guys realize we started all this don't you? "We would rather set up LE units and limit the hunting so the animals will have a better chance to mature and get big racks. I would rather hunt big animals every 10 years than hunt pisscutters every year."
Well, we got it!
Eel
'I'll keep my God, my freedom, my guns, and my money. You can keep THE CHANGE.
Well, we got it!
Eel
'I'll keep my God, my freedom, my guns, and my money. You can keep THE CHANGE.
S
SpikeHunter1972
Guest
>You guys realize we started all
>this don't you? "We would
>rather set up LE units
>and limit the hunting so
>the animals will have a
>better chance to mature and
>get big racks. I would
>rather hunt big animals every
>10 years than hunt pisscutters
>every year."
>
>Well, we got it!
>
>Eel
>
>'I'll keep my God, my freedom,
>my guns, and my money.
>You can keep THE CHANGE.
>
And high doller outfitters are taking it from us!!!! How dare they!!!
>this don't you? "We would
>rather set up LE units
>and limit the hunting so
>the animals will have a
>better chance to mature and
>get big racks. I would
>rather hunt big animals every
>10 years than hunt pisscutters
>every year."
>
>Well, we got it!
>
>Eel
>
>'I'll keep my God, my freedom,
>my guns, and my money.
>You can keep THE CHANGE.
>
And high doller outfitters are taking it from us!!!! How dare they!!!
B
bearman
Guest
Funny thing is that 90% of the hunters don't like the way commercialized hunting has become. And the few % of those who want to try and make a name for them self will agree to the end that we are just jealous. Fact is when the family and friends go out it may be for a week or two, hunt hard and have fun then that's it. The few outfitter's who are the problem hire people to look year round then follow and call the hunter to come and shoot. Big difference, there is the problem.
D
doodah
Guest
Man, a law banning finder's fees is insanity. Who we gonna criminalize...the hunter who pays the fee or the guy you asks for it...or both? What's the penalty...fine, forfeiture of hunting/scouting privileges, forfeiture of meat/antlers, forfeiture of rifles/bows, etc.?
Many have hit the nail on the head already...so much for the buddies, dads, brothers-in-law and others helping out and scouting on those beloved "DIY" hunts. No more can Joe the Elkhunter give Uncle Bob a few elk steaks or a hand in painting the barn next summer for helping him locate a great bull...that would be a finder's fee!
I'm also guessing (other than in Utah at least), most hunters like me are tired of reading about trashing the auction and governor's tag hunters. Why? Because 1) they generate alot of money for wildlife habitat and enhancement, 2) they generally create an interest in elk hunting, and 3) for the most part part, auction and governor's tag hunters (maybe other than in Utah) are pretty much an UNSUCCESSFUL bunch of hunters. Check the record books...not many governor's tag hunters have top 50 bulls in either the typical or non-typical category.
This year 2 got lucky (one in Washington and one in Utah). I'm guessing there were at least 30 auction or raffle governor's type tags sold or raffled off this past spring for hunting elk this fall. I know there were 11 such elk tags sold in February at the RMEF convention in Reno which raised over $750,000 for the RMEF (and this doesn't include the $170,000 paid by Mr. Austad for the Utah tag or any raffle tags or any tags sold at other state or local conventions, including the Arizona Elk Society where a second Arizona governor's elk tag sold for $195,000).
Where are all the photos, stories, posts, videos, advertisements, articles, etc. from the other 28 or so guys who hunted this fall with auction or raffle type governor's tags? Guess what...I'm not aware anyone's heard as much as a peep from any of them so I'm suggesting, aren't alot of hunters and other folks on the MM blog making this whole topic much ado about nothing? I mean, 2 out of maybe 30 or so...that's a success rate of about 7%. Is is really that big a deal?
Many have hit the nail on the head already...so much for the buddies, dads, brothers-in-law and others helping out and scouting on those beloved "DIY" hunts. No more can Joe the Elkhunter give Uncle Bob a few elk steaks or a hand in painting the barn next summer for helping him locate a great bull...that would be a finder's fee!
I'm also guessing (other than in Utah at least), most hunters like me are tired of reading about trashing the auction and governor's tag hunters. Why? Because 1) they generate alot of money for wildlife habitat and enhancement, 2) they generally create an interest in elk hunting, and 3) for the most part part, auction and governor's tag hunters (maybe other than in Utah) are pretty much an UNSUCCESSFUL bunch of hunters. Check the record books...not many governor's tag hunters have top 50 bulls in either the typical or non-typical category.
This year 2 got lucky (one in Washington and one in Utah). I'm guessing there were at least 30 auction or raffle governor's type tags sold or raffled off this past spring for hunting elk this fall. I know there were 11 such elk tags sold in February at the RMEF convention in Reno which raised over $750,000 for the RMEF (and this doesn't include the $170,000 paid by Mr. Austad for the Utah tag or any raffle tags or any tags sold at other state or local conventions, including the Arizona Elk Society where a second Arizona governor's elk tag sold for $195,000).
Where are all the photos, stories, posts, videos, advertisements, articles, etc. from the other 28 or so guys who hunted this fall with auction or raffle type governor's tags? Guess what...I'm not aware anyone's heard as much as a peep from any of them so I'm suggesting, aren't alot of hunters and other folks on the MM blog making this whole topic much ado about nothing? I mean, 2 out of maybe 30 or so...that's a success rate of about 7%. Is is really that big a deal?
P
proutdoors
Guest
"Do I group hunt, yes. I do this with friends and family. I don't charge my buddy or brother $200,000 to tell him what canyon I saw him in. We hunt together, camp together and sit at the camp fire hoping one of us will get lucky enough to find the bull (or deer) we have been watching. We don't hire a posy to watch him, block roads and frankly try to muscle people out of the area. Just good old family, friends and fun."
Now I am getting a better feel for where you are coming from. You dislike others having MORE money than you, since that leads to MORE opportunities than you. I am guessing you want a cap put on how many trips the rich can take to the Bahama's since you can't afford to go. I CHALLENGE you to produce ONE ounce of proof that a single road was blocked, that any one was 'muscled' out. Put up or shut up!
"Some day there may mature a 450 class bull in my neck of the woods, then what happens? I can tell you, word will get out governor tag will show up with all his posy as well as all the other guides and money boy's. The animal I have so long waited for will now have the nation?s attention (Just like spider) and the rest of us will just have to try our hardest to harvest the animal first (Just like spider hunt)."
I get it, you think the elk in 'your neck of the woods' are 'yours'. Got it! Thanks for clarifying.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
Now I am getting a better feel for where you are coming from. You dislike others having MORE money than you, since that leads to MORE opportunities than you. I am guessing you want a cap put on how many trips the rich can take to the Bahama's since you can't afford to go. I CHALLENGE you to produce ONE ounce of proof that a single road was blocked, that any one was 'muscled' out. Put up or shut up!
"Some day there may mature a 450 class bull in my neck of the woods, then what happens? I can tell you, word will get out governor tag will show up with all his posy as well as all the other guides and money boy's. The animal I have so long waited for will now have the nation?s attention (Just like spider) and the rest of us will just have to try our hardest to harvest the animal first (Just like spider hunt)."
I get it, you think the elk in 'your neck of the woods' are 'yours'. Got it! Thanks for clarifying.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
