Cows?Mature bulls?or Spikes?

M

MEEW

Guest
From the last rack meeting this is the just of what I got out of what Aneese said, we are going to kill elk next year, whether it be more cows, mature bulls, or spikes, we need to lower our numbers, on several units. Is this what you got out of it or am I wrong? What would you choose? Just something to throw around and get the attention off of spidey. In my opinion I am for the spikes, if those are the only three choices. Lets keep our quality the way it is and not over kill our big bulls, and obviously if we keep killing too many cows then we are going to kill our herd.. What do ya'll think... I heard that the sfw is atimately opposed to the spikes and that Don is rounding his posse to go to the wildlife board to make sure the spike issue dies. maybe they are right, but with the 3 choices, I'm not too sure. Lets here what ya think, or is there and alternitive?
 
I got the same thing as you. What's the point in giving more mature bull LE tags out after all the years of getting them big? They also had mentioned that they wanted the average bull to be between 250 and 300. A bunch of BS if you ask me. I am with you let more Spike tags out. Give a few more Muzzy hunt LE tags and call it good.
 
I am in favor of killing more mature bulls rather than killing spikes. Killing yearling bulls instead of mature bulls? Only in Utard. I will be there at the Wildlife Board voicing my opposition to statewide spike tags just as I did at 2 RAC's. Build the best trophy bulls in the world, just so you can issue 17,000 spike tags on units like the Pahvant/San Juan/SW Desert, BRILLIANT!!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
pro you may be right, but from what Aneese said it sounded like the may give a ton of LE tags and this may be severely wrong, maybe that's not what they meant, but, seems to me if you give more than 1-3 more tags per year on a LE unit, the end of big bulls as we know it is soooon....
 
Issuing 1-3 more bull tags is better than allowing a dozen or more hunter chase spikes and/or cows all over the units. I would like to see the LE units that don't already have spike/cow permits stay that way.
 
Build the best trophy bulls in the world and issue more bull tags, BRILLIANT!!

Why would you think issuing more bull tags would keep trophy bulls but issuing spike tags will somehow wipe out every elk in the state?

If the bull to cow ratio is out of whack then bulls need to be taken. Shoot big bulls and quality will go down. Its pretty obvious. Shoot some spikes and quality stays the same, plus the fish and game will get the revenue for all the spike tags, plus the meat hunters will get to fill the freezer every year if they choose.

The one and only advantage i can see to giving out more bull tags is obviously it will help with the bonus point situation.
 
To get bull to cow ratios back to objective a very large number of bulls need to be taken on some units. Not 1-3!

If utah were to issue 20-40 extra bull tags per unit then it would still take a few years to get the bull to cow ratio down. In those 20-40 tags there are going to be a handful of 340 plus bulls taken and it wont take long until utah has lost its trophy status.

Kill the spikes. Its not like we are short on the number of bulls. They need to be thinned out but why not leave to good ones?
 
Anis NEVER said the 'quality' would be shot out. He said the PERCEPTION it will be shot out is prevalent, big difference. By issuing spike tags you have NO way of managing how many bulls will be harvested, the future potential of those spikes as world class bulls among others. Anis also admitted that 60-70%of the yearlings are killed on a unit by issuing spike tags. On a unit like the Monroe, that is way below herd objective, but way over preferred bull:cow ratios, killing 60-70% of the new bulls recruited into the herd would create a HUGE void in the number of mature bulls available in the very near future. The DWR estimates there are 800 elk on the Monroe, with a 1:1 bull:cow ratio. With the average 55:100 calf:cow ratio that equates into 310 bulls, 315 cows, 175 calves. That means 88 new bull calves born each year. killing 60-70% would mean 53-62 fewer bulls recruited into the herd. Add in the 97 mature bull tags issued in 2008 at around 70% success rate for 68 mature bulls harvested, which if you matched in 2009 would mean 121-130 bulls removed in 2009. That is ONE IN THREE bulls removed from the herd, with half of them being yearlings! What do you think the 'quality' would be in 2010? 2011? I like the suggestion made at both the northern and central RAC's, have the elk committee get together and come up with a viable plan that will lower the bull:cow ratio w/o removing an unknown number of future world class bulls. This isn't an either or issue. There ARE other options.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>pro you may be right,
>but from what Aneese said
>it sounded like the may
>give a ton of LE
>tags and this may be
>severely wrong, maybe that's not
>what they meant, but, seems
>to me if you give
>more than 1-3 more tags
>per year on a LE
>unit, the end of big
>bulls as we know it
>is soooon....


That is what they purposed more LE tags..... Lots more.
 
As I said, they want the average bull to be 250 to 300 which means 3 to 5 years old. It is wrong and will destroy what we all have been trying to draw for. Once again, it's ABOUT THE AL MIGHTY DOLLAR! The Price of the tag will also increase by a minimum of $50 per tag.

Matt
 
I tend to think that you can "pay me now or pay me later". Shoot a larger number of mature bulls to get herds in line now OR shoot spikes and have less mature bulls in the future. Those are the only 2 options on the table. Managing for inches is never a good thing for herds which have a population objective that is required, by law, to not be exceeded.
 
Leave them all alone!!!! Good GOD put the tags where they were last year and leave them alone. All they want is more damn money. Look what they did to fish lake a few years back.
 
SpikeHunter1972, what RAC did you go to? I went to 2 and got reports from folks that went to the other 3. You are the only one I have seen that is saying the DWR is wanting 250-300 class bulls and 3-5 year old bulls. Help me out.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>Leave them all alone!!!! Good
>GOD put the tags where
>they were last year and
>leave them alone. All they
>want is more damn money.
>Look what they did to
>fish lake a few years
>back.

Actually, if you don't kill more bulls you are more likely to have Fish Lake repeated since the DWR is mandated to maintain a certain population by LAW. If you don't kill bulls you must kill cows. I prefer killing bulls!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
The last four Northern. They have mentioned it several times. Get on the DWR site and look at the new management proposals. They have all kinds of changes to be brought up in the new plan.

Matt

Who do you work for? The DWR or Doyle?
 
Pro, take your Dutton tag back this year and lets kill 15-25+ more bulls for the next five years, and then give you your tag back and lets see how excided you are to go back down there. True not All of the purposed units will benefit from the purposal, but units like the SW Desert and the San Juan have to have this happen, the Desert is at an all time low, and this will help considerably, the Monroe, on the other hand needs something else to happen.. I stil want to hunt 350 plus, if not go to Colorado, they kill tons of mature, 250 to 320 bulls if you want that get gone, leave our LE unit just that LE quality, why are the Beaver, Pahvant, San Juan, so popular, and hard to draw, obviously people want to have the best chance at a huge bull, not a pisscutter...the applicants have spoken... the Beav does great on the spike hunt, and I call B.S. on the 60=70 percent kill of spikes, we know how the dwr counts....
 
>The last four Northern. They have
>mentioned it several times. Get
>on the DWR site and
>look at the new management
>proposals. They have all kinds
>of changes to be brought
>up in the new plan.
>
>
>Matt
>
>Who do you work for? The
>DWR or Doyle?

I don't work for either, nice try. I already told you I went to two RAC's, nowhere did Anis, in his written recommendations or during his comments at the RAC's say anything about 250-300 class bulls, and I can promise he never said a word about the state being managed for 3-5 year old bulls.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Meew, how many spikes would be killed on Dutton each year for the next five years? I agree, we should keep 'quality' high, but how do states like Arizona and New Mexico do it w/o killing spikes? Also, the applicants HAVE spoken, they prefer killing mature bulls over spikes every day of the year.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
> Each unit needs different answers.

I agree!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro- First i want to say thanks. Its nice to have a conversation with someone that is well informed and not rely on conspiracy theory. I understand the point you make with monroe but that isn't the case with other units.

The 60-70% kill seems really high but even if that is the case according to your numbers atleast 35 yearlings will be recruited into a herd of 315 cows. I don't see a problem with that. It would still produce a healthy bull to cow ratio. And that is assuming that all yearlings are spikes and no 2x2's are born.
 
>The 60-70% kill seems really high
>but even if that is
>the case according to your
>numbers atleast 35 yearlings will
>be recruited into a herd
>of 315 cows. I don't
>see a problem with that.
>It would still produce a
>healthy bull to cow ratio.
>And that is assuming that
>all yearlings are spikes and
>no 2x2's are born.

The 60-70% is including the 2 point yearlings. The DWR believes 60-70% of the yearlings are harvested, not just of the spikes. If only 35 new bulls are recruited into the herd, you can kill only 35 mature bulls each year. That is a HUGE lose of opportunity to kill mature bulls, and 'quality' WILL go down.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Almost everyone who draws a big bull tag in Utah has 5 to 10 people helping them, unlike Az. or New Mex. Also the terrain is vastly different. In Az. most of the time you cannot see over 50 to 60 yards where in utah you can shoot across any canyon you want. It is almost impossible to compare one state with another.
 
If we recruit 35 bulls into a herd of 315 cows that already has a bull population of 300 plus then in five years when the spikes have reached maturity we will still have a healthy bull to cow ratio.
 
> Almost everyone who draws a
>big bull tag in Utah
>has 5 to 10 people
>helping them, unlike Az. or
>New Mex. Also the terrain
>is vastly different. In Az.
>most of the time you
>cannot see over 50 to
>60 yards where in utah
>you can shoot across any
>canyon you want. It is
>almost impossible to compare
>one state with another.


That doesn't make any sense! i'm guessing you haven't hunted arizona or spent much time in utahs limited entry units other then probably wasatch. You can't shoot across every canyon on southwest desert, monroe, san juan ect. And i have never seen more "helpers" then when i was hunting arizona.
 
Why does it work so well on the Beaver unit, aguably the best unit in UTAH......I think the proof is in the puddin....
 
Pro-

Is there a projected time limit on these statewide spike hunts?
Even with the monroe example things would be looking pretty good if the spike hunt was allowed for about four years, where as if we up bull tags it would take much longer. Unless of course they severly increased bull tags which would definately hurt quality.
 
>Why does it work so well
>on the Beaver unit, aguably
>the best unit in UTAH......I
>think the proof is in
>the puddin....

While I agree the Beaver is one of the top units for trophy bulls in Utah, it is PROOF that spike tags decrease mature bull opportunity. The Beaver has basically the same size herd as the Dutton, with similar quality. Yet the Dutton gives out a ton more mature bull tags than the Beaver does, strictly because of spike tags.

"If we recruit 35 bulls into a herd of 315 cows that already has a bull population of 300 plus then in five years when the spikes have reached maturity we will still have a healthy bull to cow ratio."

If you kill 60+ spikes and 70 mature bulls and only recruit 35 into the herd each year, 'quality' WILL go down.

pro

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
No defined timetable, no defined 'success' criteria. That is why the elk committee MUST be involved in the plan. This statewide spike 'plan' is laziness by the DWR/Wildlife Board. It is a band aid at best, and a disaster waiting to happen most likely. The management tags were implemented poorly and were given ONE year to work. Is that 'science'? I think the DWR is doing a knee jerk reaction, and I KNOW it goes against the current Elk Management Plan. Why not let a comprehensive plan be drafted that will actually have a chance of addressing the root problems instead of this half baked proposal?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Lets just let Pro manage the whole state. He seems to know it all. I bet you would do a great job.
 
>Lets just let Pro manage the
>whole state. He seems to
>know it all. I bet
>you would do a great
>job.

Good to see you REFUSE to answer honest questions/concerns and instead revert to personal attacks. Well done! If being involved/EDUCATED on big game issues bothers you, too damn bad. I talk with fellow sportsmen, DWR biologists, am involved in conservation projects/proposals, and spend 100+ days in the field each year observing elk/deer. If that doesn't sit well with an arm chair wannabe, oh well.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
You da man..... So lets see some of you sucsess this year.....
Mr. big time.
 
Are you 10?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
The spike only option for the SW Desert is a great idea, if it means we stop killing cows. We have killed 50 bulls and 300 cows for years now and it is not working.
Pro, Compare the Beaver unit with the Pahvant. Roughly the same number of LE tags and the quality is pretty close. Beaver's quality is way ahead of Panquitch on the other side. Beaver is the only one with a spike hunt.
You always preach opportunity. Spike only gives opportunity the greatest number of people.
 
I want to make sure I'm following this correctly. It sounds like there are actually people out there who think killing spikes will maintain the big bull opportunity. Maybe for 2-5 years. Answer this: Where do big bulls come from? A: they come from spikes, B: the DWR has an elk hatchery and plants them every summer, C: your momma (actually C was a trick question/answer).

So I'm going to guess that the guys in favor of killing spikes have a bunch of bonus points and figure they'll draw within the next few years and they don't want more competition.

So if units are at or above carrying capacity, elk need to be removed. Obviously we can't wipe out the cows. Fishlake proved how well that worked. If we start slaughtering yearling bulls, we will have no future for bulls. But, if we harvest more mature bulls, more hunters have opportunity for a quality hunt and we reduce the amount of bulls that die from old age.

I think you have it figured out Pro. I won't be eligible to even put in for five years but it is still nice to be able to go out and see/hear bulls.
 
I actually agree with prout on this one. I think giving more bull tags is not going to hurt quality if you give those permits to Archery, muzzleloader, not the early rifle (no more early rifle tags) and late season tags. Even create another late season hunt if we need to, but do not give more stinking rut tags out. I know the late season hunt on the san juan is the most difficult, if you do not have access to private ground it is really difficult, I bet average late season bulls taken on the late season here is 300-320 average, one or two 350. I bet the success rate is 50% as well if that.

Pro you are right about the spike hunt, I am glad SE Rack voted against it. I hope it does not go through
 
"The spike only option for the SW Desert is a great idea, if it means we stop killing cows. We have killed 50 bulls and 300 cows for years now and it is not working.
Pro, Compare the Beaver unit with the Pahvant. Roughly the same number of LE tags and the quality is pretty close. Beaver's quality is way ahead of Panquitch on the other side. Beaver is the only one with a spike hunt.
You always preach opportunity. Spike only gives opportunity the greatest number of people."

bragabit, if you are going to compare the Beaver to the Pahvant let's look at them with all the data. The Beaver has a whole lot more elk on that unit than the Pahvant has, yet they issue about the same number of LE mature bull tags. If you issue spike tags on the Pahvant the number of LE mature tags WILL go down. I do NOT consider killing spikes instead of mature bulls 'real' opportunity. Just issue more mature tags!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>Are you 10?
>
>PRO
>
>Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy
>and opportunity hunts throughout the
>state of Utah.


Some days I wish I were.

I think this whole conversation is based on region by region. During my Muzz hunt this fall I saw six different spikes. Five are still alive. This is only within a 4 mile radius. I am in the northern region, lots of satellite bulls a few 300 plus bulls and only two that would be considered trophy?s (One of which has my name on him LOL). My point is, not all spike are killed every year. Not even close. I think the elk (In Northern region should be left how it is now. I would even be willing to pay the $65 to help offset the rest of the state funding for the elk. Why did they drop it to $45?
Anyway, sorry for the personal insults, you just hit a nerve on another subject and I was speaking to you with a chip on my shoulder. Plus my wife was getting pissed at me. She thinks I am spending too much time here. I don't get it? LOL
Matt
 
Sounds like our wives think a like.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>I400? Still sounds good.

Trust me, if we can get this shelved and referred to the elk committee, that I WILL be on, I400 WILL be discussed!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
The facts are there are ways to control what gets killed if you want to protect the quality ?Spike hunts suck?

Who ever stated if you release more rifle tags you just kill more top end bulls is correct.

This is why you have a management bull tag if you want to give opportunity to rifle hunters. They will have to be more select on what they can kill. You wont see me getting my undies in a bunch is a few bulls that weren't true management bulls getting killed. Because bulls need to be killed! And spike hunts suck. I would rather make somebody use their points then to let them kill a spike before it ever has a chance to become someone?s trophy.

Now the other way to kill more bulls without hurting the top end is with archery tags. Arizona gives out ten times as many archery tags as Utah and they still kill 400? bulls every year. We have hunted some of these units and there are a lot of guys that just kill rag horns with their bows. There are also some guys like us that put in 15 days of hunting and kill a 400? bull. But the average hunter will shoot what gets into range. Archery is the best way to manage quality and opportunity. The Wasatch front proves this every year.




Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
According to Anis, if we go to statewide spike hunting then the number of antlerless tags would be reduced so that an increase in calf production would occur. If this works as he suggested, having more cows in the population, it surely would increase calf production. There would be more spikes available but there would be less room for mature high end bulls once the unit gets to population objective. Pro, I agree with much of your thinking on this. I think that it should be done more on a unit by unit assessment than a broad brush approach because some units may be under population objectives and that certainly needs to part of the equation to come up with a solution. I see that high cow harvest on any unit as one of the problems on some units. I know the DWR is required to keep population numbers close to objectives but there is no doubt some units have been grossly over hunted in regards to cows. I believe they need to err on the high side of population objectives instead of the low side. The increase in antlerless permits has had a huge impact on calf production, then along with spike hunting on some units is now manifesting itself with lower bull numbers and even lower numbers of high end bulls.
This should definitley be discussed by the Elk committee before spike hunting is broad brushed over the entire state, that is how I voted, but we lost that one in the Central RAC. I can understand the logic that Anis presented, but, ther needs to be a plan put in place to reduce cow permits, number of spike tags per unit and other legit concerns, before this is implemented.
 
A few ideas.
I hope the elk committee is able to get together and visits some issues. I think pro is right on track with his thinking.

Managements hunts need to be done prior to breaking horns, using bonus points. August 20-30th.

Do not expand spike hunting or shoot more cows.

Issue more trophy bull tags, Archery Sept 1-20, Muzzle tags Sept 21-28, early rifle Sept 29-Oct 8. Utah deer hunt first Sat in Oct. The bulk of extra tags go late season hunts. Late rifle elk tags Oct 3rd Sat in Oct. About Oct 20-30. Late hunts end prior to deep snows.

Just my opinion. The best of AZ,NV,NM, and Utah.
 
I agree with SWbuck. Most other states use archery hunters as management tools. Why cant Utah? If used in the right ways it creates alot more opportunity and money. Oh wait I just remembered why, becauce its the almighty $$$ that runs things in Utah and the high dollar rifle tags rule above all else.


Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward, whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both, for a wounded man shall say to his assailant "If I live I will kill you, If I die you are forgiven." Such is the rule of honor.
 
If utah decided to switch rifle dates and issue more archery muzz tags then i am all for a increase in bull tags and stopping spike hunts.

I enjoyed an amazing archery elk hunt in arizona last year and hunted a unit in new mexico this year that only allows muzzle loader and archery hunting. These strategies have proven successful time and time again. The quality is amazing

The problem is that i think it is highly unlikely utah will change the way things are run. It will take a lot of planning to switch the seasons around and rearrange the tag allotment. If utah doesn't change things and only issues more bull tags the quality will go out the window.
 
The most recent info i can find is 2006 but according to the numbers the units allowing spike hunters have very healthy bull to cow ratios and the units that do not have spike hunts are getting bloated unhealthy bull to cow ratios. It appears that the average age of bulls being killed also isn't negatively affected by a spike hunt.

Those who think we are trying to kill off all the recruit bulls are missing the point. We have too many bulls and there is no way that the spike hunt will eliminate the new crop. Just look at the units allowing spike hunts. wasatch, manti, beaver etc. All of these units kill trophy bulls and have a bull to cow ratio closer to objective

Even if the spike hunts harvest 60-70% of the yearling bulls the leftover 40-30% will be just about perfect to have a ideal bull to cow ratio. Especailly considering how long it will take to thin out the already extremely high population of adult bulls.

Not to mention the loss of revenue for the division. Those bran new fourwheelers and trucks don't pay for themselves.

As i said before. If utah wants to switch the weapon seasons around and issue more archery/muzzleloader tags then i would love to have more bull tags because it will help with the bonus point clog. But when it comes down to more bull tags the way things are and adding spike tags I would rather them add spike tags anyday. You can't add a bunch of rifle rut tags and expect the quality to stay the same. But if you kill off some spikes then the right amount of them will grow into trophy bulls and the ratio will be in check.
 
"Those who think we are trying to kill off all the recruit bulls are missing the point. We have too many bulls and there is no way that the spike hunt will eliminate the new crop. Just look at the units allowing spike hunts. wasatch, manti, beaver etc. All of these units kill trophy bulls and have a bull to cow ratio closer to objective."

Those units have large elk herds that can absorb a pile of spike hunters. The Pahvant, Monroe, SW Desert, San Juan can NOT absorb such a huge reduction in bull recruitment w/o also seeing 'quality' decline and the number of mature tags be DECREASED significantly. How many MORE mature bull tags could be issued on a unit like the Wasatch if you stopped killing spikes? They kill TWO spikes for every mature bull on the Wasatch and Manti, that means you could TRIPLE the mature tags if we stopped killing spikes.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
From what I just saw 2 weekends ago, the pahvant needs some serious bull reduction or we all or arguing a mute point!!!

The bull to cow ratio down there is ridiculous, we saw a total of 47 bulls, in 2.5 days of hunting. We only covered approx. 5 -6 miles of an area on the mountain, we encountered 2 different lions, saw very minimal deer (total of maybe 40), and 13 whole cow elk. Now I ask, how do we sustain quality without females to have babies?? Oh ya "1" of the bulls we encountered was a spike, so I imagine the spike hunt right there would have zero impact on that particular herd/area of the mountain!!!

I think the management hunt should be used more effectively, than is currently being used. I would just as soon see alot of these bulls fall to hunters, than "old age"!!
 
>Those units have large elk herds
>that can absorb a pile
>of spike hunters. The Pahvant,
>Monroe, SW Desert, San Juan
>can NOT absorb such a
>huge reduction in bull recruitment
>w/o also seeing 'quality' decline
>and the number of mature
>tags be DECREASED significantly. How
>many MORE mature bull tags
>could be issued on a
>unit like the Wasatch if
>you stopped killing spikes? They
>kill TWO spikes for every
>mature bull on the Wasatch
>and Manti, that means you
>could TRIPLE the mature tags
>if we stopped killing spikes.
>
>
>PRO
>
>Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy
>and opportunity hunts throughout the
>state of Utah.


Actually PRO pahvant, san jaun, monroe, dutton and the southwest desert currently have more elk then beaver!

You are right about one thing. If wasatch had no spike tags then we would be forced to kill three times the bulls. And where do you think the quality would be if that was the case?
 
I agree with big uns. It would be great to re-work the management bull hunts but unfortunately that idea is dead.

I'm guessing that if you would have seen more cows you also would have seen more bulls but look at it this way. All those bulls you seen were spikes once and if there would have been a spike hunt on pahvant four years ago then the bull to cow ratio would already be fixed. If you release a bunch of guys on the bulls how can we keep quality bulls?

Unless ofcourse the tags given are not rifle rut tags.
 
Well, if you moved the rifle out of the rut, you would have hunters settling for lesser bulls since the elk wouldn't be hunted in their most vulnerable time with the most effective weapon. This would increase harvest of bulls of all age classes. Then if you change the current tag distribution of 60% rifle, 25% Archery, and 15% Muzzy to 50% Rifle, 30% Archery, and 20% Muzzy, you would decrease success rates/increase harvest of lesser bulls and be able to significantly increase tag #s. It's not hard to understand folks. The rifle in the rut is what prevents the DWR from issuing more mature bull tags than anything else.
 
+1, halaula, and amen

Dont make me kill a spike. I want the opertunity to kill what ever I want. If I suck as a hunter and choose to shoot a spike so be it. But dont make me kill a spike.





Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
DON'T MAKE ME KILL A SPIKE x2...they just need to fix the management hunts...but it won't be fair to every one...what if you gave all the management tags to archery and took some of the archery big bulls and gave them to the muzz? The only loser is the archer that sticks more than one bull.
 
I agree completely!! Take the rifle out of the rut, switch the seasons and tag distribution.

But that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. The state isn't even considering that option right now. They are only concerned with the bull to cow ratio and they only have to proposals as of right now. Give more bull tags the way the seasons currently are or give more spike tags.

Given the two choices i think we are way better off to allow more spike tags then to give a bunch of rifle rut tags.

If any of you guys can get the ball rolling on switching the seasons and tag allotment then i'm on board and will do anything to help.
 
Pro answer this

The Beaver unit has been on the spike only/limited entry unit for 15 years now. Again one of the best units in the state. It has gone from relativly no elk to management objective in those 15 years. The bull to cow ration is in check, the quality is great, and there are plenty of mature bulls running around. It gets HAMMERED every year by spike hunters. They have never havested any cows other than the either sex spike tags. I have hunted it hard, and the only thing that has affected the quality, has been the last 3-4 years since the started giving an ungodly ammount of late season tags, and also increased all the other tags too much. There IS a limit to how many mature bulls you can harvest in a year before you affect the quality. They have killed a ton of spikes in 15 years, and it had NO effect untill the gave too many tags. There was about 57 mature bull tags on the unit this year.... too many, that is what is affecting the quality... I'm with you about more oppourtunity, and I would love to be able to draw tag every 5-8 years, but you can have my tag if I have to go hunt 250-340 bulls. Lets hear your reasoning now.. We are always saying lets try this or that on a few select units, and see what the effects are, well here is a 15 year trial that again shows that the proof is in the puddin... What do ya think Brilliant, or not so much...
 
UtahArcher77s idea makes the most sense to me thats the way I look at it first, Second would be to take the cream right off the top Take a little of the cows a little of the spikes and little of the big bulls keep all #s as close as possible just lightly lower the number. Try to keep all the same including seasons. But thats only 2nd remember I like the 1st alot more.
 
peakfreak I don't know where to go with your comment

"DON'T MAKE ME KILL A SPIKE x2...they just need to fix the management hunts...but it won't be fair to every one..."what if you gave all the management tags to archery"

Giving management tags to archers will accomplish nothing. Archers simply cannot go out and harvest a 400" bull any easier than they can go out and single out a 5x5. If you want to kill a specific animal you allow the best weapon to do the killing. That way it gets killed or the next year the bull to cow ratio is still out of wack.


"and took some of the archery big bulls and gave them to the muzz? The only loser is the archer that sticks more than one bull."

I don't know what the heck you are trying to say here but it comes across like you have been sniffing bike seats at the elementary school. I am so tired of ignorant people saying archers go out and wound more than they tag. This is simply not true! If it was then the Wasatch front would suck and it doesn't. If you want to see what the Wasatch front would look like if you allowed rifle hunters just look at Utah?s central reign. Now that sucks! Archer?s don't wound anymore game then rifle hunters and they take way fewer bucks/bulls off the top end! Archery is a way to manage hunters by getting them through the point system faster without having them affect the top end. Arizona proves this every year with their Le elk hunts.
 
UtahArcher77, what you are describing is I400!:7

"The state isn't even considering that option right now. They are only concerned with the bull to cow ratio and they only have to proposals as of right now. Give more bull tags the way the seasons currently are or give more spike tags."

Not quite accurate. The northern RAC passed a recommendation to have this referred to the Elk Management Committee by a 8-1 vote. The central RAC voted 3-4 on the same recommendation. I am going to strongly ask for the same at the Wildlife Board meeting on December 4th! There are MANY viable solutions that are more appealing to hunters and maker more biological sense. There is NO need to concede defeat and go with an either/or view IMHO. Sportsmen demanding they be heard and have this address at it's core rather than putting an infected band-aid is reasonable and doable. Make your voice be heard, here, through emails to the Wildlife Board members, showing up at the WB meeting.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro- Thanks for the update. I am in full support of adding bull tags to primitive weapons and i appreciate you keeping us current on hot subjects.

I was to the understanding that it is between adding more bull tags (with current seasons and tag allotments) and adding spike tags. Between those two i think the spike tags are by far the lesser of two evils and have proven successful on the units allowing them.

The bonus point clog is a real issue in my eyes even though i don't and probably never will apply for elk in utah. It just doesn't seem right to have such a long wait for a great tag. If there is a way to pass the I400 or something similar let me know who to email and what meetings to attend and i'll be there
Thanks
Ryan
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-08 AT 10:41AM (MST)[p]Pro- hope you can get the Wildlife board to approach this recommendation with some caution and let the Elk committee look at it and make some recommendations. This broad brush approach may be the simple way to increase harvest to make room for more cows, but I think that there are other options to accomplish that. I hope you can get the board to refer this to the elk committee for some proposals.
I also think that that there should be more of a unit by unit approach also.
The law enforcement issue and the ability of the CO's to cover their territory will be part of the reasoning to make spike hunting statewide on all units.
 
I have thought about this spike statewide proposal for a long time. the idea that I have came up with is this. Put 3-4 units together, like pahvant, Beaver, SW Desert, Then on a rotating basis, close 1 of the units to spike hunting for that year, and keep the other 2 open. This would mean that every 3 year, every spike would live on that unit, and would help replenish the bull supply, then with the many that make it other years, it would keep a good supply of bigger bulls. I have watched the Beaver and southwest desert close for years. Beaver kills spikes southwest desert kills cows. Right now, Beaver is a better unit in my eyes, bigger bulls and better herds. In southwest desert they have been killing 300+ cows and 50 bulls for the last 10 years. This cannot be very healthy for the herd. The rut is not near what it was 7-8 years ago, and some bulls never rut now.

I agree with meew, if I have to hunt 280-340 bulls in the future, I may be spoiled but it don't interest me anymore than a spike does. They are both meat bulls. I have 12 points in CO, and can't get excited to go hunt a 320 bull. I had a Unit 10 tag in AZ this year, and yes there were a few top end bulls, but most hunters are killing 300 or less bulls. I could have killed 15 of them. Instead I held out and ate the tag, a 300 bull is not what I went down there for. If we start killing any more big bulls, we will be hunting 300 bulls. The trend has already started that way with giving the late tags. The proof is in the bulls being killed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-08 AT 03:20PM (MST)[p]I dont understand how people act so put out to kill a 340 class bull!!!! If you HAVE to hunt 340 class bulls!! You must have killed some giant bulls in your life. I would give my left nut to hunt 340 class bulls every couple of years. So would probably a VERY LARGE majority of hunters. Lets make it a hunt, not a shoot, no more 90 percent success rates on a mature bull elk hunt. Make it a HUNT. Thats just me though! :)
 
Good call Coyote_chaser!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-08 AT 04:05PM (MST)[p]I think the main reason people think a 340 class bull is a small bull is because they can drive around on a four wheeler and see them. Its because we have so many bulls like that on our LE units. Now if you had to hunt very hard in mid-october with a rifle for 5 days to kill a 340 class bull, they would be GREAT bulls. Not chase around for a 370 plus love sick bull with a rifle right smack dab in the middle of the rut and then settle for a small dinky 340 class bull the last few days. Elk are not endangered, one individual above me stated that they killed a whoppin 57 bulls off a LE unit!!! I am all for increasing opportunity as much as possible. Even if that means that we dont kill a dozen 400+ bulls every year. I feel that once we start managing for inches and not for the health of a population we are way off mark and we will lose ALOT of future hunters. For some reason NM and AZ have it figured out.

I wish they would allocate alot more tags for younger/older/disabled hunters on our LE units. I feel that would be a great experience, especially for the younger generation. The large majortity of the bulls would be in the lower class of animals but it would give kids the opportunity to hunt on some of these LE units.
 
PRO, I know you think an all out spike hunt in limited units is not a good idea...what if they "limited" the number of spike tags for those units instead of making them "general" spike hunts? Spike hunting isn't all that bad...the Cache units as well as others mentioned offer spike hunting and still produce very respectable bulls, so it surely must work to some extent.
 
I guess we must have tongue tied pro on answering our questions about why certain units are working so well. I guess there is no answer why they work so well, they just work. Coyote chaser, can we not have our cake and eat it too. If there are 380 bulls then let us kill them, you can go to colorado or put in for a lesser unit in Utah, but it seems that there are way more applicants for the best unit in the state, obviously because the want to kill as big as they can, if not just put in for the oak creek or somewhere easier to draw and go hunt your 340.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-08 AT 09:01PM (MST)[p]I already drew my tag, MT. Dutton archery. Now I am looking at at least 8-10 years before I draw again. And that is for an archery tag. For a rifle tag you are looking at maybe 1 or 2 tags in your lifetime. If you are a 14 year old boy or girl you are SCREWED as far as ever hunting on a LE unit in UT. There are maybe 2-3 units they can draw in 4-6 years other than that they better be one lucky buggers. It's sad. I would rather hunt 340 bulls every 3-4 years than 380 once in my life. MEEW I want to kill those bulls. Thats the whole point. People want to HUNT!! And those 380 bulls will be there, you should just have to hunt them with something other than a rifle in the middle of the rut. MEEW my main point is that you can increase opportunity without destroying quality. Unit 10 in AZ gives like 600 or so ANTLERED tags for elk every year. Yet they kill 400 bulls every year also. As long as the rifle is in the rut and they issue 60 percent of the tags to that season opportunity will never be there. Sure we will have 90 percent success "hunts" but it will be OIL. I hunted my ass off for 15 days on the Dutton with my bow, saw a few great bulls but never had a chance at a bull bigger than 300. Now if I would of had a rifle I could of killed a smoker though. By just moving the rifle out of the rut you could increase tags dramatically, and still keep big bulls. But then it would be a hunt and not a shoot and people would complain. And SFW cant sale tags for 30K if they cant use a rifle in the heat of the rut. Its a money thing I would imagine.
 
Coyote_Chaser, I agree with you, as far as moving the rifle a little later, not a big deal, they will still fill all their tags, not a big deal either. I am just saying I don't have a problem giving more big bull tags as long as they restructure the hunts like you said, and gradually give more tags. If the DWR would do that then fine. But as of right now it is going to stay the same and the only options we have according to them are kill alot of cows, spikes, or mature bulls, and they mean alot. If that is our only options then I still say the spikes. If we can get them to restructure then that would be great, but I don't know if that is a possibility. I just don't want to see them wipe out our quality and the great system we have, but I know they have to take some animals off to stay in check. Our ranges can only take so many. The spikes seem to work in other units and maybe we rotate units, but I think if we spread those extra spike tags all around it won't hurt, and I still think we could give more big bull tags on top of that if we restructure them..
 
They have hunted spikes on the unit around my home as long as i know and the elk herds were ok untill they offered more LE tags and cow tags. Now it hard to find a bull over 300.
 
I would be shocked to see many major changes take place with Utah's elk management.

The powers pulling the strings have too much invested in growing big bulls and producing big dollars to disrupt the system.

I do believe overall quality has slipped some the last few years pretty much across the entire state from the small increases in tag numbers, and especially from the late hunts.

I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
 
coyote_chaser

I have never killed a bull over 300" but, I have been with people that have killed bulls in the 380" range. 20 years ago, I shot a 280 6 point off of sw desert and it was an awesome bull for the time, but having to go back to looking at those types of bulls to hunt, I have a hard time with that. I am all for more opportunity if we can save the quality. I would rather hunt spikes every year, and hunt a big bull every 10-15 years knowing I had a chance at a monster, than hunt 320 bulls every 7-8 years. I hunted the unit 10 az this year archery. Passed 15 bulls under 320. Did see 4-5 bulls I would have gladly shot. But in my eyes you cannot compare unit 10 with Utah. I used to think you could until this year. The terrain is the biggest reason they have big bulls in unit 10, along with indian reservation on at least one side that keeps big bulls coming and going. If we could give out 100 big bull tags and still kill a couple of 370+ bulls a year and most have chances at 330-350 bulls that would be great, but in the past few years they have added tags, and the quality has gone down. You add many more and it will go down to the point where the big bulls will be gone, and it will still take you 7-8 years to draw.
 
coyoteslayer, it takes more than 15 years now to draw a SW Desert tag, you start killing a good chunk of the yearling bulls and you can double the time it will take to draw a SW Desert mature bull tag. Fewer bulls recruited into the herd equates into fewer mature bulls that can be harvested and keep 'quality' as high as it is now. Killing spikes WILL
lower the number of mature bull tags that can be issued. It would be impossible to maintain the mature tag numbers while also killing a large portion of the bulls being recruited inot the herd each year. Those of you in favor of issuing spike tags are in favor of REDUCING the number of mature tags on the BEST trophy elk units in the world!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Prout- do you think killing 50+more big bulls will keep these units the best in the world?? the southwest desert was one of the best a few years back, but it is not now. also, if you stop killing 300 cows a year, they will have 100+ more spikes each year to compensate for the loss. The southwest desert may be the first unit to crash in the state. If any unit can handle a spike hunt, I would say this unit can. You would never kill all the spikes in that thick country. You cannot keep giving more big bull tags and expect to keep quality. The quality is already going down on most units from 2-3 years ago. If there is a way to keep the 360+ bulls alive and kill the 50+ bulls a year that need to be killed, I am all ears. I just don't want to hunt 300" bulls. If I don't hunt them only once in 11 years (that is all it takes with a bow, then at least I can pick up there sheds and enjoy that, and I can go look at them in the summer and enjoy seeing them. Killing is not the big issue for me. Issuing more bow tags could help but is not the complete answer, because bow hunters don't kill right. We have to kill some bulls, not just hunt them. I know because I, like you, had a great tag this year and went without waiting for the right one.
 
How come Arizona doesn't have spike bull hunts? They still CRANK OUT big bulls every year!!

Think about that one coyoteslayer


People archery is the answer you are looking for.




Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
The truth of the matter is that in the near "Future", money will control what the DWR will do. With the current decline of the economy and the possibility of it lasting for years, IMO, and based on the facts that the state of Utah required every department to cut 3% of their current budgets this past September and the possibility of losing another 7% in January/February. It will all be about "Money" and generating more of it. They will determine what they can do with out and/or try making up what was lost by either selling more tags and/or axing programs. That is the truth of the matter and the future of the elk hunting.
 
PRO- You are so against shooting spikes and keep telling us how it will be the end of the world (which we have proved it wont with several examples) but you haven't said what you are doing about these big bull tags you want.

Where are these big bull tags you are asking for going to go? I know that you are swbuckmaster are big archers and would like to see them go for the archers but what is happening to accomplish this?

You cant just argue that spike tags are bad and bull tags are good because if we increase the tags as is (like we have the last several years) then the quality will go down.

Also how do you suggest the DWR compensates for the large loss of income if we do away with the spike hunt?

swbuckmaster- I have heard you say time and time again "the spike hunt sucks!" "don't make me shoot a spike" "I want to shoot a branch antlered bull" "archers aren't as picky and will shoot smaller bulls" If all this BS is true then why don't you stop crying and hunt the open bull units? If the only thing you are after is a branch antlered bull and size means nothing then go shoot a five point on an open bull unit.
I've also heard you say many times that archery is the answer and you always try to shove "the front" down people's throat telling us how great it is because its archery only. I agree that the front is a great place to hunt deer but its obvious the same idea isn't working for elk. You think these archery only areas are so great lets see the bulls you have killed on the front
 
NeverStopHunting,
First, you have proven NOTHING on the spike issue. Using emotions to support your stance is NOT proof.

Second, I am in favor of having sportsmen from different viewpoints/agendas getting together WITH the DWR and coming up with a REAL plan instead of a blanket 'management' proposal such as statewide spike hunting.

Third, instead of making this personal between you/me/swbuckmaster lets stick with facts/issues and leave the rest out of it.

Fourth, if you/others can explain how the number of spikes harvested each fall can be controlled/known I wouold love to hear how.

Fifth, I WILL be attending the Wildlife Board meeting next week to voice my objections/concerns on statewide spike hunts as the "cure-all" for bull:cow ratios on world class trophy elk units. I will be requesting this recommendation NOT be passed and instead referred to the Elk Planning Committee to look at viable ways to MANAGE elk instead of take the 'easy' way out by issuing more spike tags.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Food for thought.

Units with no spike hunt.

North slope three corners. Sucks
South slope diamond mountain. Sucks
Box Elder, Grouse Creek. Sucks
Box Elder Pilot Mountain. Sucks
Oquirrh-Stansbury. Sucks bad.
Fillmore Oak Creek South. Possibly the worst in the state
Kaiparowits. Sucks bad
Paunsaguant. Sucks

Units that have a spike hunt.

Beaver. Arguably the best unit in the state
Wasatch. Gives more tags (opportunity) then a lot of other units combined. Held the state record bull for many years. Produces 400 bulls every year.
Central mountains manti. Great bulls. More tags then any other unit.
Plateau Boulder. Killed a world class bull just last year.

Units that have unhealthy bull to cow ratio.

San Juan
Monroe
SW Desert
Dutton
Pahvant
These units kill great bulls but they are headed for a big crash! The state has decided that something needs to be done.

Its pretty obvious that the big bad scary spike hunt isn't hurting the units that allow it! There are no units with a spike hunt that are under healthy bull to cow ratio. So all you guys crying that the spike hunt will ruin quality need to open your eyes. The spike hunt has proven itself for many years now. The only problem i can see is the units with no spike hunt. I guarantee that if monroe had a spike hunt several years ago the bull to cow wouldn't be 1-1.

I don't understand how you can think that these "hardcore dedicated" spike hunters are going to hike into the back country and kill every single spike off a unit but you want to allow a bunch of guys on the unit doing everything they can possibly do to kill the best bulls off the unit.

Is there any unit in the history of hunting that had improved quality due to an increase in trophy tags??
 
>NeverStopHunting,
>First, you have proven NOTHING on
>the spike issue. Using emotions
>to support your stance is
>NOT proof.
>
>Second, I am in favor of
>having sportsmen from different viewpoints/agendas
>getting together WITH the DWR
>and coming up with a
>REAL plan instead of a
>blanket 'management' proposal such as
>statewide spike hunting.
>
>Third, instead of making this personal
>between you/me/swbuckmaster lets stick with
>facts/issues and leave the rest
>out of it.
>
>Fourth, if you/others can explain how
>the number of spikes harvested
>each fall can be controlled/known
>I wouold love to hear
>how.
>
>Fifth, I WILL be attending the
>Wildlife Board meeting next week
>to voice my objections/concerns on
>statewide spike hunts as the
>"cure-all" for bull:cow ratios on
>world class trophy elk units.
>I will be requesting this
>recommendation NOT be passed and
>instead referred to the Elk
>Planning Committee to look at
>viable ways to MANAGE elk
>instead of take the 'easy'
>way out by issuing more
>spike tags.
>
>PRO
>
>Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy
>and opportunity hunts throughout the
>state of Utah.


Pro- can you tell me anywhere in my post that i use emotion to prove my stance? I just asked some questions which you dodged.

Specifically i asked - Where exactly do you plan on putting these extra bull tags you want?

How do you suggest the DWR compensates for the lost income by getting rid of spike tags?

You said that you will be attending the wildlife board meeting to voice your objections concerns about the spike hunt. I think that is great and i wish there was more people like you. That is why i like debating with you and i'm sorry if you are taking this personal. I have learned some stuff from you and i hope you can atleast see where i am coming from.

That is great that you are meeting with the elk planning committee to come up with a plan but how long will it take to really come up with a plan?

I agree that units need to be managed on a unit by unit basis but if it is going to take a couple years to get every single unit planned and then several years for it to actually make a difference then that is too long. We are running out of time and bulls need to be thinned out.

A state wide spike hunt will thin bulls in units with way way too many bulls.

Let the meat hunters shoot some spike while you plan out each unit. The numbers prove that a spike hunt wont devastate a unit.
 
A couple of thoughts:

1. Utah uses age of harvested bulls to manage bull portion of herd. Hunters don't hunt age, they hunt size of horns. Result is that best genetics of herds tend to get shot, not the oldest bulls. I believe this explains the dept's statistics showing age of bulls being harvested is increasing in most units, while those of you that spend a lot of time in some of those units are convinced that quality is decreasing. Bulls with average-poor genetics will need 8-10 years to gain enough mass to become trophy sized, while a 5.5 year old gets shot as a 370 bull due to great genetics. Without question, Utah is systematically eliminating the suprerior genetics within many of these herds under the current management scheme.

2. One of the problems with spike only seasons is that there is no way to differentiate based on genetics. It is luck of the draw. Result, even more of the superior bulls are removed from the herd. The only positive about the management hunts was that they at least were focused on bulls that likely had average-poor genetic make-up. This was offset, of course, by the broken up bulls which could be harvested, and potentially had great genetics.

3. To me, the solution is fairly obvious. The rifle hunts are running 90% plus success rates on the early hunt, with high average ages. Move that hunt to the last hunt, after the bowhunters and muzzleloaders, issue more any elk tags. Once they are out of the rut, many of the big bulls will be much harder to harvest, hunters being hunters will tend to shoot smaller bulls if that is what they are finding, bull harvest can increase, more big bulls survive, including some with great genetics, cow numbers can be increased within the herds, more calves born, more bulls added to hunts, more opportunity for hunters. Those who are looking for the trophy of a lifetime can put in the time and effort and hopefully find that type of bull, the rest can have a quality hunt.

By the way, since the Oquirrh-Stansbury "really sucks", can I please have one of those tags next year? I promise I won't shoot a spike, or the biggest bull on the mountain. (lying about the last one).

Scoutdog
 
Very good post Mike, as usual.

NeverStopHunting, I am NOT advocating doing away with spike hunting where it already exists. I am strongly opposed to adding it to the other 18 LE units. You mentioned several units that don't issue spike tags as say they "suck", and make it as if they "suck" simply because they don't issue spike tags. that is nowhere near accurate.
"North slope three corners. Sucks" What is it managed for as far as age class, trophy class? What is the terrain/habitat like? What happend to many of those bulls when they migrate across state lines in the winter?
"South slope diamond mountain. Sucks" See 3 Corners.
"Box Elder, Grouse Creek. Sucks" How much quality elk habitat is available on the Utah portion of this unit? How many elk are there?
"Box Elder Pilot Mountain. Sucks" See Grouse Creek.
"Oquirrh-Stansbury. Sucks bad." Since I live within this units boundaries I think I have a fairly good handle on this herd. They kill 360+ inch bulls EVERY year. They also have had 100% for ALL weapon types 4 out of the last 5 years, meaning it is hard for a bull to live long enough to get much bigger than 360. If spike tags are issued the bull population on this unit will be hosed!
"Fillmore Oak Creek South. Possibly the worst in the state" The DWR tried to make this an Any-bull area last year. The resident herd is less than 200 elk, what 'quality' do you expect?
"Kaiparowits. Sucks bad" Better desert bighorn sheep terrain than trophy elk terrrain.
"Paunsaguant. Sucks" The DWR doesn't even want elk on this unit. By issuing spike tags you will screw the Premium Limted Entry deer hunters. The archery hunts take place during the SAME time. Not a good/reasonable plan for this unit!

"Units that have a spike hunt."

"Beaver. Arguably the best unit in the state" Is that because of spike tags or despite spike tags?
"Wasatch. Gives more tags (opportunity) then a lot of other units combined. Held the state record bull for many years. Produces 400 bulls every year." This unit has more elk than any other unit except the Manti, shear numbers along with good escapement for bulls ensure some high end bulls will come off this unit.
"Central mountains manti. Great bulls. More tags then any other unit." It also has more elk than any LE unit in Utah, by far.
"Plateau Boulder. Killed a world class bull just last year." Great unit. Has the same number of elk as the Dutton, yet offers dozens fewer mature bull tags than Dutton with the same 'quality' because they kill 2 spikes for every mature bull on these units you mention.

I agree things need to be changed/improved on MOST LE units. I just do NOT believe issuing spike tags statewide is the answer. If the Wildlife Board refers this to the Elk Committee, they can begin meeting and coming up with REAL solutions right away.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Neverstophuntn

I don't think spike bulls will ruin any unit for big bulls. There will still be bulls just like you see on the Wasatch unit. Big 350 bull?s wow

However it will be a butt clog in the bonus point system it will become a once in a life time hunt for some and a never in a life time for others. It will decrease tags significantly. We don't need to manage all our elk units like the henneries mountains deer units.

What we do need is to manage are recourses for the good of all hunters. While still maintaining quality and providing increased opportunity. I wold like to see people move through the point system. The system we had was a great one while our herds were growing. Now that they have met objective we have to do something. If you want opportunity at big bulls without hurting the quality significantly then we look at Arizona. They give out tons of opportunity and still kill big bulls every year. We can utilize the management tags before the rut. So people can take a true management bull.

Here is the answer to your other question ?why don't I hunt open units??

I do hunt bulls every year on open bulls units ?Wasatch Front?. I pass up cows and spikes hoping to seal the deal on a mature bull every year. If I decide to take one of these cows or spikes I can. I have only been hunting elk for 3 years now up their. I have tons of trail camera pictures of great bulls coming to my stand every year. You know what else these bulls keep getting bigger every year on the Wasatch front. They are also increasing every year in the area I hunt. They didn't use to be in this area but every year the herd increases. It is increasing so fast the division is worried so they keep issuing more cow tags every year. I personally believe I will be hunting 330 ? 360 + pulls next year if these bulls don't get killed this year. Maybe Ill finally get one of these big bulls I've been hunting. I have put in 21 days of hunting on these bulls in the last three years. To me that is opportunity. At least I have opportunity to hunt every year. At least I have the opportunity to hunt big bulls every year. I at least I also have the opportunity to hunt big bucks every year. In fact a friend and I are going after a buck this weekend that will go possible over 220?. If we seal the deal on that buck you will see the photos. If we happen to kill something smaller you will see the photos. This is opportunity. You will never have the opportunity to hunt big bucks/bulls in Utah every year if you chose to hunt with a rifle. The best you can do for deer is southern Utah 2 out of 3 years. Then you will have to basically hit the lottery on a good buck. I can go up any canyon and be on 170 plus bucks. Opportunity and quality is what I am all about. I am a trophy hunter. My philosophy is you can't kill something big if you can't hunt something big. I hunt big every year so my chances are I will luck into something big every now and again. I further help my chances with my time on the hill which averages at least 20 plus days a year scouting and hunting. I also get proficient with my weapon all year long. I shoot tournament nearly every weekend so when the shot presents itself I can seal the deal.

Archery is the answer to manage hunters without hurting quality quantity opportunity!!!






Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Pro- I guess i should have worded it differently. I did not mean to indicate that those units suck because they don't have a spike hunt. I'm just proving a point that the spike hunt is not the reason units are bad. There are great units that have spike hunts and poor units that don't have spike hunts. However the units that are good that don't have spike hunts all have a bull to cow ratio problem.

I read a lot of your posts and they are all kind of the same. You respond to someone. Tell them why their idea is wrong and say that spike hunts will hurt quality. There is a big difference in quality and quantity.

What i am asking is what is your plan?

I know you plan on attending meetings and putting your input into the decisions but i have asked several time. What do you plan on doing with the extra bull tags?

I have said it before. If we give more bull tags the way the seasons and tag allotment is right now then we will wipe out the big bulls. If we recruit less bulls then the quality will be the same and the bull to cow ratio will get to objective.
 
Swbuckmaster- I agree with you about the bonus points. It is sad that it takes 15 plus years to draw a tag and issuing more bull tags will definately help with that.

I understand your point on archery. 90% of my hunting is archery but is there a plan set in motion to do what you are saying and give the extra tags to archery? I don't think so.

You can't really compare utah to arizona. Utah has four times as many elk as arizona and utahs population is exploding while arizona has been fairly steady. We get more water then arizona and have a much better calf survival.

You said "we need to manage our resource for the good of all hunters." Isn't 17000 spike hunters more important than a couple hundred bull hunters? Just because we are trophy hunters doesn't mean we should shaft the guys who aren't. I don't apply for elk in utah and i have never hunted spikes or cows so i am just giving my un-biased oppinion.

I would love to management hunts pre rut. Or youth only hunts. Or switching the seasons around and giving more primitive weapon tags and if someone comes up with a plan to do so i will support it a hundred percent! But arguing blindly that it is better to kill big bulls then spikes doesn't make sense IMO

Good luck this weekend. I hope you can connect on that buck you mentioned.
 
NeverStopHuntin
?Swbuckmaster- I agree with you about the bonus points. It is sad that it takes 15 plus years to draw a tag and issuing more bull tags will definitely help with that.?

The truly sad thing is that is where the point system is at now. The pyramid scheme is getting a larger base and the truth is there are some people that will never get to hunt on one of these units. If you had five points right now it will take you 37 years to draw a early season rifle Dutton tag. Issuing spike tags will cut the big bull tags out of the draw making it longer to draw a tag if you are the last guy in your point group to draw.

?I understand your point on archery. 90% of my hunting is archery but is there a plan set in motion to do what you are saying and give the extra tags to archery? I don't think so.?

No! I hope we can come up with something with this elk comity that will put something in motion. I am crossing my fingers

?You can't really compare utah to arizona. Utah has four times as many elk as arizona and utahs population is exploding while arizona has been fairly steady. We get more water then arizona and have a much better calf survival.?

Therefore we should be able to push more people through the system because we have a better elk factory. We just need to use their management plans to occomplish this.

?Isn't 17000 spike hunters more important than a couple hundred bull hunters? Just because we are trophy hunters doesn't mean we should shaft the guys who aren't. I don't apply for elk in utah and i have never hunted spikes or cows so i am just giving my un-biased oppinion.?

I don't want to take away opportunity to hunt any existing spike units I however don't want to see any more spike units.

?I would love to management hunts pre rut. Or youth only hunts. Or switching the seasons around and giving more primitive weapon tags and if someone comes up with a plan to do so i will support it a hundred percent! But arguing blindly that it is better to kill big bulls then spikes doesn't make sense IMO?

That is why I attend my rac meetings. I try and attend the elk/deer comity meetings, even though I can't say anything. I like to see where things are going. I have friends on these comities and they are trying to get something done.

?Good luck this weekend. I hope you can connect on that buck you mentioned.?

Thanks hope we can seal the deal. By the way try not to take me to seriously I am pretty passionate about hunting. I like to debate things on these forums. But I don't hold any ill feelings towards anyone on this sight for what they believe in.
We are all hunters when it comes down to it.

except maybe Dude lol
 
Pro, your killin me here. Don't you guys listen to him. Oquirrh-Stansbury really, really, sucks. You will hate it. Anywhere else would be a better tag, even a spike tag on the mighty Manti.

Scoutdog
 
>Pro, your killin me here.
>Don't you guys listen to
>him. Oquirrh-Stansbury really, really,
>sucks. You will hate
>it. Anywhere else would
>be a better tag, even
>a spike tag on the
>mighty Manti.
>
>Scoutdog

:7

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro, you are killin me too. Are you just dodging the questions on why the spike units are working, or do we just have tunnel vision with big bull tags at the end of the tunnel. Pro I don't think most of us are against wanting to hunt BIG bulls as often as we can, but do you really think giving more tags is going to seal the deal? Even if you give 10 more archery tags a year you are going to kill more bulls. The L.E. units are already overhunted, and therefore killing too many bulls. I agree, if you give more archery tags, that may be part of the answer, but you still need to restructure the hunt dates, and give less rifle tags, meaning not so many if any late tags, and less rifle tags, because they are going to have their 90% kill rates on big or smaller bulls no matter where the dates are. Yeah, or nay?
 
MEEW, I HAVE answered your question multiple times! Spike tags are NOT the answer/cure all. IMHO there are MANY options available that are more desirable than issuing an unknown number of tags for any given LE unit resulting in an unknown number of spikes harvested each fall. I am saying this is a complex issue that needs to be looked at with intelligence and a vision of the whole picture. The DWR recommendation does neither. Statewide spike tags is a band aid at best, a sure fire way to take the ability for MOST wishful mature bull hunters to EVER draw a LE bull elk tag in Utah. A kid truning 14 for next years elk hunts, if he/she were to apply for a LE rifle tag on 90% of the LE units, he/she would have less than a 30% chance of drawing. That is with the current system. Now take and factor in the LOST OPPORTUNITY that WILL result from increased spike harvest, and that 14 year olds odds of drawing will get even worse. Now, how do you keep kids interested in hunting? Spike tags are NOT the answer. A kid may be satisfied for a year or two, but not for long.

So, my short answer is: DO NOT PASS STATEWIDE SPIKE HUNTING. REFER THIS TO THE ELK COMMITTEE TO ADDRESS AND COME UP WITH REAL SOLUTIONS!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
MEEW
here is what I presented to the rac. It shows the problems with allowing spike hunts. it shows the problems with the bonus point system. It also shows some solutions to fix both.


I am against the state wide spike proposal and for Utah?s trophy elk I believe we can still have both.

The Divisions proposal does two things. First it kills a bull before it can become some ones trophy and hurts the guys applying for a Limited entry tag by plugging up the bonus point system.

Here is my example
I am going to use the Dutton and the Boulder Limited entry units. These Limited entry units sit side by side and are pretty much separated by an asphalt road. The Boulder gives spike tags and the Dutton does not. The Dutton issues a total of 145 big bull tags. The Boulder(spike) area only issues a total of 83 big bull tags. That is a difference of 62 big bull tags.

To put this into perspective you have to look at the bonus point system as well
If a hunter had 5 points with the current system right now for the Dutton early hunt he/she is guaranteed a tag in 37 years if you are the last one in your point group to draw. That is a long time for a shot at a branch antlered bull. In fact if I had 5 points I would be 73 years old before I would be guaranteed a shot at a branch antlered bull. This is excessive IMHO.

The Divisions new proposal would further hurt the 50,000 plus people putting in for their chance at a branch antlered bull every year because they would have to restrict big bull tags. The division has stated we already kill 60% of the spikes on the LE units we have right now. A bull is a bull, whether you kill them as a spike or as 6 point. I personally believe the 50,000 plus guys putting in for these units need their chances at a branch antlered bull that is what they want.

I believe we should keep the state wide spike units we already have? I just don't believe we should create any more. There is enough opportunity in this state to meat hunt or to fill your freezer so to speak if you want by applying for the already spike elk hunts, cow elk hunts, antelope doe hunts, mule deer doe hunts, cow moose hunts, rabbit hunts, and bird hunts.

There are better ways to manage the problem Utah has with too many bulls in this state without killing the top end bulls or spikes.

The management tag is a great way to manage bulls. It helps cycle people through the point system and if it's good enough for the Henneries deer than it is still good enough for our LE elk units. If you are still afraid of people killing broken bulls than put the management hunt earlier before the bulls get broken.

The other way to protect the top end bulls in this state is to allow more archery tags. Arizona gives out hundreds of tags on their Le units, and Arizona still produces 400? bulls every year. Archers typically don't have the luxury of saying they are going to go out and kill the best bull on the mountain. It just doesn't work out that way. 95% will settle for what ever shot is presented. The results are bulls will get killed from a wider age range. And people will have to use their points instead of killing a spike for free.


In conclusion
Remember a broken bull, rag horn, or 6 point is no different than a spike bull in the bull to cow scenario except a dead spike will never.. ever.. have a chance to become someone?s trophy.

Thanks you for your time
 
Fellas, I am not against what you are working for, it's just right now that is not on the table. Anis said they are going to kill elk NEXT year one of three ways. I hope not any of the three. I agree with more archery tags, that is not a problem. I just don't want the division to dump big bull tags by the masses on the LE units for next year. That would be catastrophic in my opinion. Along with more archery tags, ya'll need to restructure the hunt dates....what would that do to you guides, the big money out of the rut, I don't think the big boys would go for that, the big money is not in the archery hunt for the guys that seem to have the most ass pulling weight around here, therefore more money, and the cream seems to come to the top..Is someone like the big moosenuckle client that pays 100,000 plus going to pay that if the rifle hunt is out of the rut, not saying the gov tag either....Don't get me wrong guys I agree with what you are saying and if I can help lets do it, but it seems, our voices are not as loud as the boys who make a living off of these animals......Lets just keep Utard elk world class in my opinion, right now I think we are doing pretty good, but the division says there are too many elk and some have to go, understandably so, lets just do it the right way.
 
Oh yeah, my vote is for Arizona type bulls also, lets just not make this like Colorado. Please don't make me hunt 250-340 bulls every 3-5 years, to me they are no funner than a spike. And that is why I put in for the strip, knowing that it is most likely a once in a lifetime hunt, but atleast when I draw, I know there is a good chance that I will be hunting 220+ type bucks, even if I don't kill one. To me it will be well worth the wait....I can hunt general dinks every year right here in tardville while waiting for my OIL on the henry's also.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-08 AT 04:03PM (MST)[p]
Some interesting reads.

How about a novel idea, since 500,000 of habitat has been dramatically improved - a few hundred pounds of food per acre to now a couple thousand pounds per acre - there is an opportunity to increase some elk herds, which for a few years would allow for decreased cow elk permits - let cow populations grow, while bull harvest stays constant = keep the quality we have.

Over the past four years, utah has doubled the number of trophy bull tags from about 1,200 to 2,500.

There have been some pretty serious meetings with ranchers, DWR and sportsmen groups to look at this issue, and over the next couple of months, on a unit, by unit basis, there may be the opportunity to increase elk herds, without hurting mule deer or ranchers. Any proposals will go through local committees and RACs and BOARD, but a lot of folks have agreed upon some basic frameworks to expand elk herds in some places.

This is a desired outcome for the short term 3-5 years, and then once herds reach these higher objectives, the debate can continue whether more spike bulls are taken, or managmeent bulls are taken.

The average age class objectives are in place to keep some quality on every unit, some are 5-6 year old bull units, others are 6-7 year bull units.

finally, on the Henry's and Pauns. over the past 3 years, the Pauns has averaged 43, 41 and 39 percent of the bucks taken are five or older. On teh Henry's the percentage are 63, 55 and 52%. For who knows why, the DWR proposed lower these standards to 30-40 percent.

SFW has prevailed so far at 4 of the 5 RACS to keep the Pauns. at 40-50% of the bucks harvested five years or older, and 50-60% of the bucks on the Henry's five years or older.

MEEW, that mgmt standard will keep monster bucks on teh Henry Mts for a long time, not over hunt it, and NOT become another unit of shooting 26 inch four points. The Henry's should be one of the two BEST deer units in the world, it is 99 Percent public land, deer don't migrate to another state, no highway issues, unlimited winter range, major habitat improvements on summer and transition range, water projects done all over the mountain.



Don
 

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