Utah Elk Greed?

[frkybugleboy]

After reading the thread on (Cows? Mature bulls? or Spikes?) I can't help but think about how greedy allot of hunters sound. Utah has great elk hunting without a doubt. After all, bulls from Utah have set new records how many times in the last 8 years? How many records were broke in the previous 50 years? So now does everyone who applies for a LE elk tag in Utah expect the same or better odds of taking a new world record elk? I would dare say that every LE unit in the state holds a few 380+ bulls. So every hunter who draws a tag in the next 2 years should have an opportunity to harvest a record book elk. Now take a unit with a 50/50 bull to cow ratio. Say the DWR issues 20 more LE tags in each unit and the ratio comes down. Are you still going to have a few bulls that reach that 380+ mark? I would say yes. If you open up a spike hunt on those units how many big bulls are you going to have left in 3 to 5 years? Suddenly the bull to cow ratios have dropped and the DWR cannot issue any LE tags because most mature bulls are gone?

In my opinion, I think the DWR is doing a great job with input from many hunters and organizations. They think about the future. What will hunting be like in 5 or 10 years from the decisions we all make today? Greed is attributed to the world?s economy and the housing market collapse. Will greed be attributed to the collapse of several LE elk units in Utah? If so, I don't think it will be on the side of the DWR being greedy for a few more dollars. It will come from the sportsman and organizations all wanting that "shot" at the next world record just as soon as they can draw a tag.

I am all for issuing more LE tags where needed to bring the ratios in line of where they need to be. Will the opportunity for a 380+ bull still be there? Will there be continued opportunity at a 380+ bull for future hunters? Or will greed be the demise of incredible elk hunting opportunity on many LE units?

Food for thought!

 

[wileywapati]

" What will hunting be in 5 to 10 years???" Well you asked so here goes. Just like was promised five to ten years back if you grow a bigger pie we can all have a bite. Well apparently we can have a bite of a management buck or bull but not the real thing as was promised.

Inches and money will be the norm in the next 5 to 10 years.
As long as the guides, scouts, tag sellers and all of the other assorted public resource whores need their pieces of the pie you are only going to see things spiral down from here.

I hear so many people get all riled up about banning a certain type of gun but the same people are 100% OK with paid proffessional party hunting.

Call it what you will but after the spider bull of this fall and what has happened in Utah the past few years the trend has been solidified

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Be real careful who you lump in with the "whore" population WW. For somebody that is supposed to be representing a certain archery group, those are pretty strong words. I do agree with you to a certain point though.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[Inmysights]

Ok...so I have to put my 2 cents in on this one.

I will agree that some in the guided hunting community have gone WAY overboard on how they go after bulls for clients. It is somewhat rediculous that there are 40 people in the hills putting bulls to bed and waking them up. They do a better job of watching that elk than I do on my 5 year old boy. (kidding of course) I have to hand it to them though they always produce. I can be mad about it and I can think that it is rediculous all I want but the fact is, the state of Utah allows it and welcomes it because of the revenue. I doubt that will change anytime soon either. I am upset at the fact that my boys will never be able to enjoy hunting the way that I did as a kid without paying for it. They will still enjoy it just not in the same way. It would be great to see some restrictions on how some guides are able to go about finding these bulls but that is just an opinion that will never fly. (this idea would only apply to a choice few of course : ) ) I would not want to cut into anyones livelyhood and hard work that they put forth to do so. Heaven knows they aren't millionares and I would say that most don't do it for the money.

Until the DWR gets enough pressure from the general hunting community to make changes they will continue to serve themselves in any way possible. The trouble is that there are just to many special interest groups within our community that want it all to go their way. I won't lie, I would be one of them.

I will say this....if we want change that badly then we as a group of hunters needs to stand up and go after what we want. It needs to make the best sense for all not just a few. Once we can get everyone to pull together we can get some changes made. We just have to get over ourselves and look out for the betterment of hunting overall in Utah. ( I am speaking to myself as much as anyone in that last statement) My hope is that this will occur in the future because we need it.

Thanks,

Sorry for the long post!!!

Inmyights

 

[wileywapati]

Jim there is a HUGE difference about you and what I am talking about. It ain't just the guides it's all of us. I am just as guilty as the next guy, I'd love to kill a monster bull or buck.

Some tactics and the guides that use them are a small part of the problem. We all buy off on them... If questions are asked then we are either greedy, jealous, dirt poor or spreading rumor.

Hunting isn't about going out and playing our role as game managers anymore. We don't have the opportunity to keep wildlife at carrying capacity or balance healthy herds because we are all consumed with killing a 400 inch bull and a 200 inch buck so we can post the pictures on MM or get in a magazine.

How did we get to this mentality and mindset?? What can we do to stop it?? The writing is on the wall. Is it all about the biggest and stinkiest now?? I will tell you that this is the way the trend is headed and it scares the ##### out of me.
I fear for the future and what it holds for my kids and grandkids. Is big game going to go the way of pheasant hunting in Utah?? If you want a buck you go pay for it and a guy cuts one loose out of the back of a horse trailer??

 

[justr_86]

I'm going to get hammered on for this.

We all get hung up on the so called bad things the dwr does, But we forget about all the good things they do. Utahs track record of freaking huge bucks and bulls speaks for itself. There is no way to please everyone. Cut tags somebody is going to cry, Up tags somebody is going to cry, Leave the number alone somebody is going to cry. I personally think they do have the animals on the top of their priority list but management cost money... alot of money.. It has to come from somewhere.
I personally know somebody high up in the system and He is personally trying to get more hunting opportunity's for everyone. I think the spike bull stuff is a good idea because it opens up opportunity's to alot more people. southern utah doesnt have much elk hunting unless you can draw a tag and the northern part of the state gets pounded. this will take pressure off of some units and make all of them better I think. I would love to go for a spike and be able to mess with some monsters while doing it wishing I had a big bull tag but I think it would lose its glimmer if I could hunt Southwest desert every year for a big bull 3 or 4 into it I wouldnt be as excited about it. I think the wait is part of the fun. It just goes along with the pleasant misery we all put ourselves through.
Its all about opportunity people with money have more opportunity it will always be this way and you cant critisize them for having money because given the option you and I would do the exact same thing.
Theres room for everyone we just need to give more opportunity and alot more people can enjoy it too.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

WW - I agree with everything you said except the fact that we are no longer playing a role in game management. I hope that you are wrong and I still want to believe that what we do as sportsman matters in the long run. I too believe that what we do now will profoundly affect our hunting heritage and the quality (or lack thereof) of hunting that our kids can experience. I know for a fact that we are all caught up on the whole numbers thing with horns and nothing bothers me more than a hunter who can't appreciate what it took to harvest a 300 class animal vs a 400 class animal. I think that we have lost perspective on what hunting is all about. I have a 3x4 bull elk which was my first branch antlered bull, that I am the most proud of. It will be hanging right next to the 362 and the 375 bulls (as soon as slamdunk gets a hold of it) in my trophy room. I shot it at a young age and can remember every little detail about that hunt. I don't know what it will take but I will always believe that we are stewards with our wildlife no matter how much control we have. I am also a firm believer in "what comes around.....".

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com

 

[hossblur]

I drew the late Manti le after 13 points. I knew going in that it wasn't a trophy area, or even what it was supposed to be when it was started. I killed a nice 6 point, don't believe in scores. I went for this tag because I grew up hunting there, dad and I started putting in way back and he died nearly 5 years ago without drawing so I continued. Am I morally superior? NO. But I do think that we have lost some of the traditon that is hunting. A lot of that is because of private hunting lands(CWMU's) which are encouraged by the DWR as a revenue raiser have shut down lands which often were hunted via generous landowners. A lot of it is money, how many of us can afford to drop thousands for us and a kid or two, so the kid gets left. Most of it is this stupid score contest we have going now. I am sorry, but scores changed hunting. Look back at the posts about dr. austeds bull( I don't like naming elk), right after the "holy crap" posts, the next posts were "what will it score?". Like if it scored only 475 any of us would pass because it wasn't 500. It's too bad. Because the Monroe produced such a high score it is now the hottest tag in the country. Doyle is the hottest guide. OH YEAH, and the monroe is now the most poached unit in the west, thats right, there are those who will pay for high scores, legal or not. Our dads and grandads killed more huge bucks then we will ever see. Did you start hunting because they told you what they scored( I doubt they knew), or so you could be one of the guys with them?

 

[rodsroost]

>I drew the late Manti le
>after 13 points. I
>knew going in that it
>wasn't a trophy area, or
>even what it was supposed
>to be when it was
>started. I killed a
>nice 6 point, don't believe
>in scores. I went
>for this tag because I
>grew up hunting there, dad
>and I started putting in
>way back and he died
>nearly 5 years ago without
>drawing so I continued.
>Am I morally superior? NO.
> But I do think
>that we have lost some
>of the traditon that is
>hunting. A lot of
>that is because of private
>hunting lands(CWMU's) which are encouraged
>by the DWR as a
>revenue raiser have shut down
>lands which often were hunted
>via generous landowners. A
>lot of it is money,
>how many of us can
>afford to drop thousands for
>us and a kid or
>two, so the kid gets
>left. Most of it
>is this stupid score contest
>we have going now.
>I am sorry, but scores
>changed hunting. Look back
>at the posts about dr.
>austeds bull( I don't like
>naming elk), right after the
>"holy crap" posts, the next
>posts were "what will it
>score?". Like if it
>scored only 475 any of
>us would pass because it
>wasn't 500. It's too
>bad. Because the Monroe
>produced such a high score
>it is now the hottest
>tag in the country.
>Doyle is the hottest guide.
> OH YEAH, and the
>monroe is now the most
>poached unit in the west,
>thats right, there are those
>who will pay for high
>scores, legal or not.
>Our dads and grandads killed
>more huge bucks then we
>will ever see. Did
>you start hunting because they
>told you what they scored(
>I doubt they knew), or
>so you could be one
>of the guys with them?
>
I agree with you totaly and appreciate your respond.It says exatly how I feel

 

[ktc]

Must be November again?

 

[BuckSeeker79]

Hey thanks for the thoughts. I have to agree with you on this matter, I think that the management has done wonders for the Elk here. Lots of Big Bulls....

To add to this discussion: How come DWR doesn't get greedy and do what they've done for the Elk with the deer? There are a few exceptions to this, take the Henry's for example. Huge Deer and lots of them, but some of the other units need this devotion as well.

I think your right, need to have some balance. I also think it's time to move from the Elk to the Deer.

I love hunting Big Bulls, but there's something about Muley's that gets me.

Thoughts?

 

[JBird]

The truth of the matter is that in the near "Future", money will control what the DWR will do. With the current decline of the economy and the possibility of it lasting for years, IMO, and based on the facts that the state of Utah required every department to cut 3% of their current budgets this past September and the possibility of losing another 7% in January/February. It will all be about "Money" and generating more of it. They will determine what they can do with out and try making up what was lost by either selling more tags or axing programs. That is the truth of the matter and the future of the elk hunting.