Is anyone in favor of spike hunting in Utah???

c3

c3

Very Active Member
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23 years waiting my turn to draw a tough unit and now, to have spike hunters in the mix is a bit dissapointing. Everyone knows I've always been in favor of more opportunity, but spike hunting is nightmare come true.

Spike hunting is the reason we have 1/4 the number of big bull permits on 3 times as many elk vs. Arizona.

Is there anyone who is really in favor of it?

Cheers,
Pete
 
I Dont want it.




Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
Yes, If it means that we do away with cow hunts. Units like the SW Desert, Pahvant and San Juan need to be restructured. 1 to 1 bull cow ratios are not good. We have gone to long killing 50 bulls and 300 cows a year off them. Unless they are willing to move the rifle hunt out of the rut they were giving as many tags as possible to keep the trophy quality. In fact I think last year quality had slipped as they went to far with Big Bull rifle tags.
 
bragabit, that would make sense other than the fact that they want to give out UNLIMITED spike tags, Honestly they might as well just give out a few more big bull tags than do this, thats what the people want to hunt anyways, not a spike. They need to listen to there biologist's who sugest giveing out more bull tags every year.




Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
I don't understand how people can make the claim that quality slipped because of too many bull tags in the same year those tags were issued. Especially when a new world record was harvested! The exact same bulls were on the mountain this year whether there were zero tags or 10,000! You wouldn't see a difference until the following year.

State wide spike tags is a huge mistake and WILL hurt quality while reducing the number of mature bull tags that can be issued. Utah could have helped to solve two problems by issuing more mature tags. 1. Fix the bull to cow ratios. 2. Move people through the bonus point sytem faster. A huge opportunity was missed here.
 
Pete,

I'm not in favor of it, but I'm going to take advantage of it and hunt spikes and cows while calling in huge bulls on some of the best elk units in the world!

You can bet that I wont be alone. I'm afraid that it's going to be more than some of the "smaller" southern units can handle. I can only imagine what Monroe and Dutton are gonna be like not to mention the Pahvant.

Even if only a couple of hundred spikes and cows are killed it's going to make a huge difference down the road, unless the DWR counters by reducing LE tags and antlerless tags?! Kind of seems like we're gonna be heading backwards...

Said it before, but I'll say it again-I'm glad I got it over with this year! Good luck to those of you still chasing the dream.

Granted a new potential world record was shot this year, but I guarantee overall quality slipped ths past season on most if not all units.
 
That was my thought too Prism!!!! There are going to be 5000 spike and cow hunters on the Pahvant next year. Anyone who puts in for an archery permit there is insane. The Wasatch, Manti or the Beaver might be good options this year as everyone will go to one of the premium units to hunt cows and spikes. LOL!

What a nightmare this year is going to be. I think a simple point might be the best option :)

Cheers,
Pete
 
Given the alternative i am definatley in favor of the spike tags.

1500 tags spread across the entire state with over 62,000 elk isn't going to hurt anything one bit!!

c3 said "Spike hunting is the reason we have 1/4 the number of big bull permits on 3 times as many elk vs. Arizona."

I don't know where you are getting your numbers but we dont have 1/4 the elk tags that arizona does. And if only a handful of units in utah had spike tags then how could the spike hunt decrease the amount of bull tags across the entire state?

Also did you consider that a large majority of arizona rifle hunts are conducted in november with relatively low success rates where as the majority of utah rifle hunts are in september during the prime rut with near perfect success rates?

JakeH said "bragabit, that would make sense other than the fact that they want to give out UNLIMITED spike tags"

Adding 1500 tags statewide isn't exactly what i would call UNLIMITED.

"Honestly they might as well just give out a few more big bull tags than do this, thats what the people want to hunt anyways, not a spike."

What will happen to quality if we start throwing in a bunch of bull tags? If people didn't want to shoot a dinky spike then how do they sell 11,000 tags?

"They need to listen to there biologist's who sugest giveing out more bull tags every year."

Giving out more spike tags IS giving out more bull tags

I think people are missing the point. Every year too many bull calfs are born. That is why the bull to cow ratio is way off. If you kill some yearling bull now then down the road the bull to cow ratio stays in check. It will not lower the amount of tags available because we have way too many bulls and obviously aren't issuing enough tags. So basically if we kill some spikes and leave the bull tags the same then we will have a healthy bull to cow ratio and the exact same opportunity

For monroe to have a healthy bull to cow ratio 195 bulls need to die today! Try issuing 200 plus bull tags and see where the quality is after that.
 
I stand corrected, I think somebody else stated that they were giveing out unlimited spike tags, and I quoted them sorry for my miss quote, I guess I should check befor I say something. You have turned me a bit, but if they are going to do this they need to allocate a set number of tags for each unit, and not have a statewide hunt, make people choose a unit, also they need to stop all cow hunts in the LE units that have unhealty B/C ratios. I still think they have room to allow a few more big bull tags to be given in alot of the units, not a drastic amount, but a few.

I do think the archery hunters are getting the BONE though, who wants to wait for x amount of years for a great tag only to have a bunch of spike hunters messing with the herds. The Rifle hunters dont have to worry about it because the hunt dates are different.




Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
Arizona has roughly 8500 any bull elk permits every year. Utah has roughly 1800. We have over twice as many elk as Arizona.

Get rid of all spike hunting, get the rifle hunt out of the rut, give out 5 times as many permits, mostly to primitive weapons and every one gets a shot every 5 or 8 years. The quality will level out with plenty of big bulls for anyone who wants to work that hard.

Now you'd have a stable bull to cow ratio and a sustainable elk population with more oportunity and quality than we could ever imagine.

It's not the extra 1500 spike permits that are the problem. It's that all 12,500 of them are going to go hunt one of the premium units for a spike this first year. It's a nightmare in the making and I don't see how they could go there without a cap per unit and weapon type. Maybe I missed it, but I can't see how anyone with max points can even think about putting in for one of the premiums this year. You'd have to be crazy.

Cheers,
Pete
 
So, there are 1500 permits for Archery and 12,500 for rifle? Is that correct?
also, no draw, just first come first served on the specified date?
 
Ya'll got your panties in a twist about nothing. spreading that many tags across that many units won't affect a thing. c3 said it looks like a good time to hit the Beaver, Manti, or the Wasatch....well c3 the Beaver already has spike hunting and has had for 15+ years, it doesn't affect the unit or the other "archery" LE hunters at all. It is arguably the best unit in the state..Brag is right also the SW desert, San Juan, and others have to have this, they are way out of wack, the only down side I can see is the monroe.... the dutton will be fine, it is like the Beav too thick and mean to kill many spikes....all in all it won't hurt a thing
 
>I stand corrected, I think somebody
>else stated that they were
>giveing out unlimited spike tags,
>and I quoted them sorry
>for my miss quote, I
>guess I should check befor
>I say something. You
>have turned me a bit,
>but if they are going
>to do this they need
>to allocate a set number
>of tags for each unit,
>and not have a statewide
>hunt, make people choose a
>unit, also they need to
>stop all cow hunts in
>the LE units that have
>unhealty B/C ratios. I
>still think they have room
>to allow a few more
>big bull tags to be
>given in alot of the
>units, not a drastic amount,
>but a few.
>
>I do think the archery hunters
>are getting the BONE though,
>who wants to wait for
>x amount of years for
>a great tag only to
>have a bunch of spike
>hunters messing with the herds.
> The Rifle hunters dont
>have to worry about it
>because the hunt dates are
>different.

I agree with you Jake, it would be a lot better to have set tags for each unit instead of statewide. Some rough terrain units wont get hunted much and some are going to get hit very hard. I also agree that they should stop cow hunts on units that have poor bull to cow ratios but i believe that the reason they are still killing cows is because those units have a total elk population that is higher then objective. I also agree that it wouldn't hurt to allow a few more bull tags on certain units but to bring the bull to cow ratio into check it would take a ton of tags and quality would go out the window.

Having a great archery tag at the same time as a spike hunt would be very frustrating and will educate elk but the muzzleloader hunters have to deal with deer hunters and the grouse hunt opens during the archery hunt as well. It sucks but it is something they have had to deal with on the spike units for years and as far as i can tell it hasn't lowered success rates. Plus if those things actually were to lower the success rate on the hunt then the division will be able to give more tags. Just a thought
 
>Get rid of all spike hunting,
>get the rifle hunt out
>of the rut, give out
>5 times as many permits,
>mostly to primitive weapons and
>every one gets a shot
>every 5 or 8 years.
> The quality will level
>out with plenty of big
>bulls for anyone who wants
>to work that hard.

If we can get the ball rolling to move season dates and tag allotment i am definately on board! But when it boils down to more bull tags (with current season dates) and giving some spike tags i am for the spikes.
 
Archery elk tags are UNLIMITED, unless somethings been changed?

There's going to be a whole lot of people all over southern Utah next year chasing spikes and cows on these new units with archery equipment.

I personally think it's easier to kill a spike or a cow with a bow than just about anything. Atleast it use to be when I use to chase them around a bunch.

What's to keep 1000 plus guys from showing up on Monroe just for the experience to archery hunt it for elk. Lets say they have 10% success and kill 100 cows and spikes.

Then a month later another crowd of hunters shows up to hunts spikes with the rifle-another big chunk of elk is gonna hit the dirt-including some mature bulls just like they do on the Wasatch and other units. Then in another month the muzzleloader spike hunters show up to shoot a handful more.

Do I think we're gonn a whipe the herds out? No. But, I do think there is potential to do some serious damage to some great units and over decades worth of management.

Personally I think we could and should be offering more hunters the opportunity to hunt our elk-but shooting them as spikes is stupid!
 
There are unlimited archery and 12,500 rifle spike permits as I see it for 2009. I see it as the biggest cluster ever :(

Cheers,
Pete
 
>
>I agree with you Jake, it
>would be a lot better
>to have set tags for
>each unit instead of statewide.
>Some rough terrain units wont
>get hunted much and some
>are going to get hit
>very hard. I also agree
>that they should stop cow
>hunts on units that have
>poor bull to cow ratios
>but i believe that the
>reason they are still killing
>cows is because those units
>have a total elk population
>that is higher then objective.
>I also agree that it
>wouldn't hurt to allow a
>few more bull tags on
>certain units but to bring
>the bull to cow ratio
>into check it would take
>a ton of tags and
>quality would go out the
>window.

They've been killing off way to many cows on a number of these units for years, thats what got the B/C ratios out of wack, obviously the cows are not the problem any more. The fastest way to fix the B/C ratio is to stop shooting cows and start shooting bulls, Im not saying to wipe out all the bulls at once it will take a few years to do, but if they keep giveing out cow tags then it will take even longer. Its a constantly revolveing issue, what needs to be done now dose not need to be set in concreat for 20 years.





>Having a great archery tag at
>the same time as a
>spike hunt would be very
>frustrating and will educate elk
>but the muzzleloader hunters have
>to deal with deer hunters
>and the grouse hunt opens
>during the archery hunt as
>well. It sucks but it
>is something they have had
>to deal with on the
>spike units for years and
>as far as i can
>tell it hasn't lowered success
>rates. Plus if those things
>actually were to lower the
>success rate on the hunt
>then the division will be
>able to give more tags.
>Just a thought

Compairing Grouse hunting, and even the deer hunters is ridiculose, and here is why, deer and grouse are not elk, so the deer and grouse hunters are not chaseing the elk around on purpose, archery spike/cow hunters are chaseing the elk around. There is a huge differnce.

Also someone on one of the other threads about this said that the archery units with spike hunts on them now have a much lower sucsess rate than the units without. I think it was Prism but I am not positive.


Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
"Also someone on one of the other threads about this said that the archery units with spike hunts on them now have a much lower sucsess rate than the units without. I think it was Prism but I am not positive."

That was me, and it is a 14-16% difference in success rates between the spike units and the LE units for LE archery success rates. I ran the numbers for 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, which is all the years since LE archery tags have been issued minus this year as no data is available as of yet.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
They only increased total gun numbers by 1500!!! Who says the DWR doesn't listen? Some people on here need to eat some crow and give the division some credit!!!! 50/50 bull to cow ratios is not an ideal ratio in any management scenario. We need to be heavier on cows, as cows will bring the population back if there is ever a hard elk-killing winter, its kind of like a savings account. Some units are approaching carrying capacity and flirting with this disaster. Boulder and Beaver have allowed spike hunts and have their fair share of 400 bulls. Killing spikes is the best way of maintaining a higher percentage of cows, maintaining trophey status, opening opportunity, and keeping the population in check with carrying capacity. I'm glad the DWR doesn't base their management decisions alone on the general public's wishes. It is the right thing to do for 2009.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-08 AT 09:56AM (MST)[p]>
>That was me, and it is
>a 14-16% difference in success
>rates between the spike units
>and the LE units for
>LE archery success rates. I
>ran the numbers for 2004,
>2005, 2006, 2007, which is
>all the years since LE
>archery tags have been issued
>minus this year as no
>data is available as of
>yet.
>
>PRO


PRO- i just checked your numbers and you are way off. The archery success rate varies from 0-100% and there is no connection in whether or not they have spike hunts. The numbers vary so much that there is no way to accurately compare units.

Boulder has a spike hunt and LE archery success was 60%
FishLake has a spike hunt and LE archery success was 59.1
LaSal has a spike hunt and LE archery success was 45.5%

San Juan, no spike hunt and LE archery success was 29.4
Pahvant, no spike hunt and LE archery success was 33.3
Dutton, no spike hunt and LE archery success was 30.8

I'm just proving that the spike hunt has NOTHING to do with success rates and you can't sit there and say you ran all these numbers and that the spike hunt WILL lower success by 14-16%. Lets stick to the facts and not use emotion to back your argument.
 
>Compairing Grouse hunting, and even the
>deer hunters is ridiculose,
>and here is why, deer
>and grouse are not elk,
>so the deer and grouse
>hunters are not chaseing the
>elk around on purpose, archery
>spike/cow hunters are chaseing the
>elk around. There is
>a huge differnce.


In my opinion there is no difference between grouse hunters deer hunters and spike hunters. How many spike hunters do you know that get very far off the road. I can't speak for everyone but i don't think a lot of spike hunters are getting into the back country. The numbers speak for themselves with a 16% kill success on rifle spike hunts and around 10% for archery. I think that a bunch of guys running their dogs and shooting shotguns are going to spook elk way more then a bunch of road hunting spike hunters.

Unfortunately there is no unit or cap as to where all the spike hunters can go but i don't think it is going to be as bad as many are making it out to be. Next fall when gas is back to four plus dollars a gallon how many people are going to drive clear to pahvant just to attempt to kill a spike? Especailly since the majority of utahs people population lives within 30 miles of wasatch and manti units.

The spike hunt went from 9 units to close to 30 increasing millions of acres and only 1500 tags. Given the average statewide success rate of 16.4% that means you are only going to kill 246 more elk spread across the entire state. Not too scary if you ask me.

We have too many bulls. Kill spikes or kill bulls something has got to give. Why turn utah into colorado?
 
I do not support the spike hunt expanding. However, what I hope happens is maybe just maybe hunters will spread out and not impact the great units too badly meanwhile decreasing pressure off the Manti and Wasatch and Fishlake units. I am glad the DWR revised their number from 17000 to 12,500 or the like.

I think the Monroe will see the most impact.

Also, having hunted the Wasatch and Manti LE elk before, I disagree with those of you saying having all the extra hunters does not impact your hunt. It does. It does not mean you can not be successful still, but it changes the hunt somewhat. I scored both times, but had stalks ruined on the greatest bulls both years by spike hunters. I know becuaes I talked to them. It was not their fault. Just Bad luck or bad timing, It worked against me. O well. We will see how it goes huh?

I am sure it will change sooner than later anyways!

Chad
 
I have archery hunted the Wasatch and the Dutton.
On the Dutton I had FAR more encounters with other people than I did on the Wasatch.
-Dutton had WAY more archery deer hunters
-Dutton had WAY more people scouting for their rifle elk hunt, early and late
-Dutton had 4 people hunting for every hunter, I have not experienced this on the Wasatch.
-AND guess what guys, I ran into more guides on the Dutton, 3 times I bumped into them while hunting.

I am not complaining, just a fact. I still loved my Dutton hunt.

We live in a crowded world, with shrinking opportunity to enjoy the outdoors.

I for one, am all for finally seeing an increase in opportunity!
 
NeverStopHuntin, I did this crazy thing when coming up with AVERAGES, I AVERAGED then over a five year period, and I took ALL the spike units and added up their combined success rates vs that of the spike 'free' units. Using ONE year of data is not a good gauge for AVERAGES. Just thought I would throw that in there. ;-) Emotions had NOTHING to do with the numbers I used posted by the DWR.

Another trend I noticed is that archery success rates have dropped steadily as tags have increased, but rifle success rates have been level with the same percentage of increases. This shows that increased hunters in the filed have direct effects on archers, but little/no effect on rifle hunters, and yet the statewide spike hunts will take place during the same time as LE archery, but NOT during the LE rifle hunt. Can a rifle hunter explain to me why it is 'acceptable' to expect archers to have spike hunts, deer hunts, grouse hunts all going on while the LE hunt is taking place? Then answer me this, would you be fine with moving the rifle spike hunt, the rifle deer hunt during the SAME time as the LE rifle elk hunt is taking place? If not, why not?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
bowhunt wrote: "AND guess what guys, I ran into more guides on the Dutton, 3 times I bumped into them while hunting."

You were looking for me, that doesn't count.;-)

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LOL Pro,

You got me on that one. Like I said I am not complaining. I thought the experience was exceptional!
 
PRO- I'm just stating that the spike hunt isn't necessarily the cause of a lower success rate. Especially to blanket statement 14-16% lower success. We all know there are a lot of variables especially in bow hunting and that there are spike units with much higher success then non spike units. By the way i just threw the emotion thing in as a joke because you said that in a different post. just jerkin your chain;-)

You make a very interesting comparison about the archery elk hunt having deer, grouse, and spike hunters and yet the rifle elk hunters have to woods to themselves. Push the rifle elk hunt into late october with the rifle deer hunt and that will solve many problems. You could nearly double rifle bull tags and wouldn't hurt the quality.
 
pros says;

"Can a rifle hunter explain to me why it is 'acceptable' to expect archers to have spike hunts, deer hunts, grouse hunts all going on while the LE hunt is taking place? Then answer me this, would you be fine with moving the rifle spike hunt, the rifle deer hunt during the SAME time as the LE rifle elk hunt is taking place? If not, why not?"

As I have said many times, part of the quality of the LE hunts is the lack of people. When I draw out I enjoy being able to hunt the animal, without climbing over people, and turning it into a game of luck by picking a good escape route to shoot as they run by. I have all but quit the general season gig because of the people.

I do not think it is acceptable. I have said many times that the over-lapping hunts for a guy who has waited many years is a unfair deal. Don't think it is right for a bow guy, muzzle guy, or rifle guy to have to compete during a general season. It is unfair for all the reasons you are thinking. I really do not think rifle hunters are the ones to blame. I certainly would never push to have anyone's hunt ruined by too much pressure. I am just a low pressure kind of guy.

Now don't argue with me pro.;-)
 
Bowhunt,

Thank you for your perspective having hunted both units. I am surprised by your experience. Sorry to hear about all the outside pressure. My experience on the Manti and Wasatch may have been wierd years but I had spike hunters all over me while hunting. Luckily I had a couple nice spots to sit and wait it out. It just takes more time and a different style of hunting for me to be successful I guess.

I believe that Bowhunters really take it in the shorts on LE elk. Muzzleloaders do too to a lesser extent. But the trade off is it is easier to draw. Anyways, Thanks for sharing your experience.
 
Many of us don't like it. but something has to be done. I think the spink hunt is needed for now. Remember we need to preserve for the future so that we can always have the opportunity to hunt bigger bulls. more spike tags = conservation of bigger bulls. I've seen way to many spikes and I think it is a good idea. If you draw your lifetime hunt then turn your tag back in and wait til the herds are back in full swing. let someone else hunt during that time who doesnt care to harvest a 330 bull
 
The Utah DWR deserves alot of credit for getting the quality and quantity of our elk herds to where they are today.

But now that they are there, the DWR doesn't know what to do with them. The same strategy that got them there is not the ideal strategy for maintianing the herds.

It seems the DWR is just making "knee jerk" reactions when it comes to this "maintaining" strategy.
* Let's try giving out more cow elk tags - ie Fishlake, didn't seem to work
* Let's try giving "management" bull tags - didn't seem to work, take that away
* Let's try spike tags across the entire state - well see how that works

Who knows whats next???

Although Pro didn't have all the answers, he did say it best in another thread - the DWR needs to have an "Elk only" committee to determine the best "long term" strategy for maintaining our elk herds at the quality level they are at, while increasing the opportunity for all.
 
Late on this thread but here goes.....I've got mixed emotions on this one. On one hand I want to see more opportunity on LE units by providing more tags for bigger bulls. Most, if not all the units in the state can handle more big bull tags. I don't think that spike elk hunting is the answer. It will definately help the DWR with one objective by reducing the bull to cow ratios but I don't see how you can maintain the trophy status by shooting the young bulls. I can promise you one thing...it will be a slaughter next year on units like the Pahvant, Dutton, and Monroe. Those spike elk on the Pahvant this year stood around like a lump on a log. At the same time, I would love to see the spike hunters on the Wasatch dispersed a little bit. I wouldn't be surprised to see the spike hunters on the Wasatch at a 50:1 spike hunter to big bull hunter ratio. It will reduce the pressure on units like the Wasatch and the Manti. For those of you who are boohooing about having spike hunters on "your LE unit" I feel for you. I really do. But we've been doing it since the LE draw inception on the Wasatch and Manti units. Welcome to the club. This has the potential to be absolutely devestating to the trophy elk population. I know that Pro will disagree with me but it's happened in other units. People are figuring out how to archery kill these spikes and the success rate is increasing. Enough of my ranting. Overall, it's a bad idea.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
At the Central RAC I specifically ask Anis Aoude if spike hunting were allowed statewide would they reduce or eliminate antlerless hunting on those units. He said that was the idea, so that, increased calf production would happen. I think that is reasonable to assume-- IF-- they curtail antlerless permits drastically. There is no question that this will in time affect the number of trophy bulls available on every unit. I would have liked to see it discussed in the elk committee first and then see what the recommendations would be. I think the problem is that there are some units that are in precarious positions in regards to cow/ bull ratios and someting had to be done now. It probably should have been addressed a few years ago.
 

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