As an outfitter, I have wondered what to do about my business plan for 2009. I know many of MM members don't use outfitters and I respect that. I'm just curious whether the love of hunting will be on the chopping block for most folks. For me, that will be one of the last things to go, like air and water. I'm sure things are hurting in a lot of areas of the country. I can't imagine things won't be affected. Your humble opinion is kindly requested. Thank, Jim
Will the Ecomony Affect Your 2009 Hunt Plans?
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upmuley
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I think it is highly dependent upon your customer base and the hunts offered. Economic downturns greatly affect the sales of $30,000 boats and have little effect on $30,000,000 yachts. Typically the middle is squeezed. So in essence if your selling dirt cheap hunts some people will try to save and move into these. If you have top quality hunts with good opportunity at high calibre game the folks dropping big money on these will have the money to do it regardless of cost.
The other thing to factor in on the positive side are fuel prices. With the economy in the tank crude prices should remain low resulting in lower gas prices. A lot of travel plans are based upon the gas price and/or airline ticket price. In reality these costs are fairly minimal in the grand scheme of an outfitted hunt but the costs are psychologically important for many.
That being said, I know you're a good outfitter running a good - operation you'll do fine. Maybe not a peak year but you should be fine.
P.S. You should add your web's URL to your signature on these posts. You've got a good site - get the word out!
The other thing to factor in on the positive side are fuel prices. With the economy in the tank crude prices should remain low resulting in lower gas prices. A lot of travel plans are based upon the gas price and/or airline ticket price. In reality these costs are fairly minimal in the grand scheme of an outfitted hunt but the costs are psychologically important for many.
That being said, I know you're a good outfitter running a good - operation you'll do fine. Maybe not a peak year but you should be fine.
P.S. You should add your web's URL to your signature on these posts. You've got a good site - get the word out!
tmbr_hntr
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-08 AT 10:00AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-08 AT 09:59?AM (MST)
over $30 trillion of wealth has been lost. Don't kid yourself into thinking this is not going to reach even the guys buying $30,000,000 yachts. I believe there has been a bubble in the outdoor industry that corresponded with our economic bubble. Look at the increase in outfitters as well as prices over the last 10 years. When times are good and people have money it's easy to spend it on luxury items like guided hunts. There is no doubt there will be a retraction in this market just like all others right now. Many will not make it and the end result will probably benefit the little guy hunter in the long run. As with ALL professions right now, the good ones will survive. The bad ones will be weeded out.
FYI, hunting would be the last to go for me, but a guided hunt would be the first to go.
over $30 trillion of wealth has been lost. Don't kid yourself into thinking this is not going to reach even the guys buying $30,000,000 yachts. I believe there has been a bubble in the outdoor industry that corresponded with our economic bubble. Look at the increase in outfitters as well as prices over the last 10 years. When times are good and people have money it's easy to spend it on luxury items like guided hunts. There is no doubt there will be a retraction in this market just like all others right now. Many will not make it and the end result will probably benefit the little guy hunter in the long run. As with ALL professions right now, the good ones will survive. The bad ones will be weeded out.
FYI, hunting would be the last to go for me, but a guided hunt would be the first to go.
NMPaul
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Myself I will continue to apply in every state I did last year (10 states), but, only put in for the best of the best units.
Besides economy, I have many great hunting opportunities locally even if not my own tag (kids and friends to hunt with).
I will only go guided if there is no other option that makes sense. I have very limited time would be only reason to go guided.
In the past I averaged one guided hunt a year and 10-15 non guided.
This last year I went on no guided hunts and next year will most likely be the same.
Besides economy, I have many great hunting opportunities locally even if not my own tag (kids and friends to hunt with).
I will only go guided if there is no other option that makes sense. I have very limited time would be only reason to go guided.
In the past I averaged one guided hunt a year and 10-15 non guided.
This last year I went on no guided hunts and next year will most likely be the same.
upmuley
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Yep, that's what I meant Jim! I agree strongly that the weaker players will be hurt the most in all industries and we'll see a shakeout (much needed in several business segments). However, like my previous post said the middle gets squeezed the most in downturns. People selling luxury or pure bargain products do the best. People downgrade (ie bargain products - Walmart is doing great right now) and people at the top are pretty insulated. So your investment portfolio goes from $10M to $6.5M are you going to cancel that sheep hunt you've been planning for a year - uh no.
The strong will survive and the weak will fall by the wayside.
The strong will survive and the weak will fall by the wayside.
Idahoron
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To be honest it affected my plans this year. Here in Idaho if I don't draw a good tag I won't put a lot of money into an open deer or elk hunt. I have shot a LOT of them and to be honest spending a bunch of money to hunt with wolves here in Idaho is not in my plans.
In the past I have known people to spend BIG money on a guided hunt, then take a 150 class mule deer or a 250 to 275 bull. I would not be interested in a guided hunt that could not produce a 180 or better buck or 350 or better bull. Even at that it would have to be a very good price. I also see a lot of guys posting pictures of deer and elk that the guide told them what the score should be. Most of the guides are missing the first 10 inches of their tape measures.
So in 2009 no I won't be going on a guided hunt. I would rather see my son shoot a doe than for me to pay a ton of money to shoot a guided 150 class deer.
I am going to alaska fishing this summer, but if it was not for the fact I am going with family I would not be going. I am going to enjoy going with my Uncle who is 88 years old. He is an old school bad ass and goes every year. Ron
In the past I have known people to spend BIG money on a guided hunt, then take a 150 class mule deer or a 250 to 275 bull. I would not be interested in a guided hunt that could not produce a 180 or better buck or 350 or better bull. Even at that it would have to be a very good price. I also see a lot of guys posting pictures of deer and elk that the guide told them what the score should be. Most of the guides are missing the first 10 inches of their tape measures.
So in 2009 no I won't be going on a guided hunt. I would rather see my son shoot a doe than for me to pay a ton of money to shoot a guided 150 class deer.
I am going to alaska fishing this summer, but if it was not for the fact I am going with family I would not be going. I am going to enjoy going with my Uncle who is 88 years old. He is an old school bad ass and goes every year. Ron
I'm in the mid pack on points except WY. Going to multiple states in one year hasn't been a reality yet so I haven't thought about cutting back any. I really only plan on going to NM each year.
I'll be going there till I can't get out of the truck.
Had 34/36 gone to a 3 season structure I probably would not buy a LO tag. My only rational to the escalating prices is a 2 week hunt and the slim chance of drawing that would lower my average cost over time.
I'll be going there till I can't get out of the truck.
Had 34/36 gone to a 3 season structure I probably would not buy a LO tag. My only rational to the escalating prices is a 2 week hunt and the slim chance of drawing that would lower my average cost over time.
R
Rem308
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Economy will not stop me from huning,but I do more DIY hunts now and not paying for outfitter service.
ridgerunner
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I think it will have a pretty significant impact, for most guys who go on guided hunts it is a luxory type item that they have to save for, with the threat of job losses, lost of equity in homes etc, I think that alot of guys will just put off those type of hunts. Those outfitters who are very good should be fine, but I think your average hunter might put off trips.
R
Rem308
Guest
My son and 7 of his buddys were planning a Wyoming muledeer hunt and have canceled there plans ,half of them have lost there jobs in the last 6 weeks and have not found anything much for work.
southslope82
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Well Actually it has worked for me in the better cause I can finally afford to drive with gas being down I plan on putting in for alot mroe hunts in and out of state next year , I hope I don't sound cocky but I feel I have a pretty stable job and until a little more drastic change comes along I won't let it slow me down a bit. just my 2 cents
upmuley
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Hey Oilcan,
I agree about oil prices. We should NOT get complacent and should continue to look at other sources of energy to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
It's funny how short our memories are. My buddy that owns a car dealership told that SUVs and trucks are his best sellers now. No body wants a Prius anymore (actually why would anybody want one anyway) they are all going back to full-size trucks!
I agree about oil prices. We should NOT get complacent and should continue to look at other sources of energy to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
It's funny how short our memories are. My buddy that owns a car dealership told that SUVs and trucks are his best sellers now. No body wants a Prius anymore (actually why would anybody want one anyway) they are all going back to full-size trucks!
I'm sure most of us have heard of supply and demand? I wonder if the economy continues to drop if the price of tags and guided hunts will go down?
I've never been on a guided hunt but plan on applying for the same tags I've always applied. If there is a good, cheap trespass hunt I can DIY I would likely still go for it. I'd probably sell my left n@t before going without hunting!
I've never been on a guided hunt but plan on applying for the same tags I've always applied. If there is a good, cheap trespass hunt I can DIY I would likely still go for it. I'd probably sell my left n@t before going without hunting!
southslope82
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I don't count on gas being down til next hunting season although I wished it would also, I always budget for my hunts the best that I can but anymore its getting to the point that there really is no telling in what tommorow will bring things are up and down so much I have a hard time determining what to figure things by for example gas 160$ a barrel two months later roughly 35$ a barrel then there is alot of other things to try and estimate on it tough! One thing that is going to stay consistent though is my desire to hunt, scout, and be in the hills so as long as I am physically able to do any of it I am going to. Before I had a drivers license alot of my transportation was done by bicycle if things get bad enough I might be going back to that yeah I might look pretty retarded but hey you do what you gotta do. lol
Hunting and shooting have always been my primary recreational activities. Some people live to golf or fish. I live to hunt. I will give up other activities like going to ball games, take shorter family vacations, drive my 2002 truck a few years longer than I had planned and also probably work longer before retiring because of the current economy but I will not stop hunting. I may stop buying guns that just sit in my safe, never own Zeiss or Swaroski glass, hold off on moving up to a bigger house, etc. but as long as I control my own destiny, hunting will be at the top of my list. I drove 1600 miles each way last fall with gas at $3.69/gallon. Hopefully it stays at $1.79 or less come next fall.
desertpointbrian
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never will it affect my hunting but you do have to think of the people who have been layed off or they are going to be layed off from now untill then. i am really thankful that my company is doing real well through this. but some people are not so lucky so will it affect it in general i believe yes it will
T
TheHunt
Guest
It will effect me but having a daughter in College is draining my hunting fund. I do think you will feel some impact. As others have said if you have returning clients with lots of disposible income you will not be affected too much. But if your clients are middleclass then you will feel the impact.
If you have people canceling on you, I would try to think of ways to get hunters hiring you... This could be from auctions or other ideas.
I do think by asking you are a smart business person.
If you have people canceling on you, I would try to think of ways to get hunters hiring you... This could be from auctions or other ideas.
I do think by asking you are a smart business person.
B
Brahma
Guest
Saturday I went to a sporting goods store that is usually dead. This time there were hoards of people hauling all kinds of stuff out the door because the store was offering $25 off every $100 purchased and thats on top of already good sale prices.
Looks like folks are in the mood to spend but only on good deals.
FWIW, cut price hunts could sell like hotcakes.
Looks like folks are in the mood to spend but only on good deals.
FWIW, cut price hunts could sell like hotcakes.
Guys-The economy is having a drastic affect on lots of folks. We have lowered our hunt prices and added incentives and are still not getting near (50-75% off) the traffic we used to at this time of year. I've talked to other outfitters, taxidermists, ranchers, and its a bad news. For you folks out there that are suffering loss of job and pay, our hearts go out to you. Times are tough and getting tougher!!
S
stinkystomper
Guest
In 2009 I was planning on an african safari, a utah conservation elk tag, a colorado deer hunt, a couple of texas barbary sheep hunts, and a yukon moose hunt. I had already sent the money for my utah LE elk hunt to pay for the majority of the expenses and put a deposit on my colorado deer hunt. As for the rest of my hunts, I've canceled them all. And have no plans for any guided hunts in 2010. Right now I am surviving. I've cut all my employees wages 40% or more and have cut my own more than that. I will survive in this down turned economy, but all luxury items are out the door for now. I won't be returning to the luxury items market until my employees have their wages back and have one solid year of profits back under my belt. Hope this helps.
Califelkslayer
Long Time Member
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With a very stable job, I'll still apply in all of the states I usually do but I thinking a few more points only apps. One reason is cause I'm pretty close to several good tags and I think I'm gonna have to spend a week in Utah helping my dad elk hunt.
My real reason for cutting back a lil is to save more vacation time so I get paid off when I retire.
My real reason for cutting back a lil is to save more vacation time so I get paid off when I retire.
AZBuckSnort
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Good post searcher and one I'm sure many would identify with, including me.
joesikora
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Jim ,I'm in the home building business so I feel your pain. As I told my wife last week lets plan for the absolute worst and pray for the best.
If I meet anyone looking to hunt NM this year at our elk dinner in Feb.I'll throw your name out there. It can't hurt.
Good Luck.
Joe E Sikora
If I meet anyone looking to hunt NM this year at our elk dinner in Feb.I'll throw your name out there. It can't hurt.
Good Luck.
Joe E Sikora
S
SHEDSTALKER
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-09 AT 01:46AM (MST)[p]As long as I breath, I'll find a way to get out and hunt. Period. I would never give up the experieces both past and those to come for anything. Hunting is my greatest joy in life and without it, life just wouldn't have its luster. I hope your business is not too negatively effected from the ecomonys' downturn.
S
scoutdog5
Guest
I talked to Jim about New Mexico DIY hunts for about 45 minutes this morning. He was very helpful, and has some excellent options for DIY hunters. If you are interested in New Mexico, you should definitely call him. I am studying the proclamation to figure out some options, if not for this year, in 2010. One warning, looks like New Mexico changed the hunt numbers for this year, so you have to go to last year's proclamation to get the correct number to check draw odds.
On another topic, heard from a fiend of mine that he heard that elk applications in Wyoming are down big time, and they are going to extend the deadline to Feb 2. Anyone hear about this? I went to the website, did not find anything about it.
It looks like it could be a rough year for the outfitting business. I have mixed feelings. Things have gotten pretty ridiculous the last few years in some ways, but a lot of good outfitters who work hard to provide a quality experience are going to get hurt.
Scoutdog
On another topic, heard from a fiend of mine that he heard that elk applications in Wyoming are down big time, and they are going to extend the deadline to Feb 2. Anyone hear about this? I went to the website, did not find anything about it.
It looks like it could be a rough year for the outfitting business. I have mixed feelings. Things have gotten pretty ridiculous the last few years in some ways, but a lot of good outfitters who work hard to provide a quality experience are going to get hurt.
Scoutdog
AWHOLELOTTABULL
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I just talked to a buddy of mine that went to Safari Club in Reno. Only 2 out of 10 of us went. He said that the show was pretty good but that some of the people he recognized were not there and the crowds were pretty thin. I would bet that travel to these shows will be limited. We are not doing half the shows we did last year. We'll be alright. You find out where your priorities lye during times like these. To all those who have it tougher than me I say hang in there and my best goes out to you and your employees!!!!
It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
flyingbrass
Active Member
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You're only kidding yourself if you think the economy hasn't affected hunting already. There will be big adjustments this fall. I had a great year in 2008 business wise but it is the speculation that keeps people from booking multiple hunts. Fear of the unknown is what is going to kill things this fall. Even the most hardcore hunter will change the way he goes about hunting. When gas went to $4 a gallon people might not hunt fewer hours in the field but you can bet your ass they cut back on scouting and multiple trips to hunt.
flyingbrass
cold dead hands
flyingbrass
cold dead hands
I'm looking at our economy's downturn as my good fortune. Two years ago I was able to pick up a guided cancellation elk hunt that was 50% off. It was a great hunt. Almost booked one last year, but a we lost a guy at work for a month and I couldn't get any time due to being shorthanded. Already have 3 weeks vacation earmarked in Oct/Nov this year hoping for that next cancellation hunt. Having said that, the high price of fuel slowed me down the year before. I was paying $80 a tank for fuel and remember shooting the first decent goat I saw because I had no intention of dropping $600 - $700 in fuel for an antelope or deer. As my luck goes, I usually don't draw anything. So will the economic downturn affect me, probably not...
H
huntindude
Guest
It has to have a effect, I know people it's already effecting even for what out of state tags they're applying for.
For myself nothing has changed, and if I happen draw a tag good enough I think I need some adult spervision to make the most of it I'll hire an outfitter. but that's what I always do.
For myself nothing has changed, and if I happen draw a tag good enough I think I need some adult spervision to make the most of it I'll hire an outfitter. but that's what I always do.
R
Rem308
Guest
Most outfitters I have used havebeen great people ,honest and knew there business,but if I hunt the west this year it will be a DIY hunt. With every investment on the market going south,the money is to tight to spend on an outfitted hunt.
P
PeterGriffin
Guest
Attendance at SCI was way down. I've heard as much as 38%!
If you don't think the economy is going to have major affects on the entire hunting and outdoor industry you're up in the night.
"Dear MacGuyver, Enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip, and a drinking straw. Please save my dog." Peter Griffin aka The Family Guy
If you don't think the economy is going to have major affects on the entire hunting and outdoor industry you're up in the night.
"Dear MacGuyver, Enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip, and a drinking straw. Please save my dog." Peter Griffin aka The Family Guy
flyingbrass
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For instance. A friend of mine who goes on a guided hunt every year is selling his truck, camper, and home. That is how bad it is. He ain't hunting anywhere. Even the die hards got to eat. flyingbrass
cold dead hands
cold dead hands
