H
habitat
Guest
I hear the deer winterkill last year took a toll on the deer but I know some hunter that went elk hunting this last season and they thought the elk had been hammered by winter kill also,any thoughts
H
huntelk8863
Guest
I dont know a lot about other parts of the state, but I can speak about the SW---76, 80, 81, 751, 66, 68 and in general others in this area that I may have missed. It appears that most of the loss which was bad last winter and may be just as bad this year based on early snow fall had to do with the lack of calfs on the ground as well as the mortility rate of mature animals. I spend time in these units in July, August, September and October and just plain did not see many calfs. I archery hunted in 80 and 81 and did not see a lot of elk but did not see one calf. The lack of elk had to do with a couple of factors in my opinion. Generally messed up rut state wide, the Division of Wildlifes lack of ability to count and admit they cant count, and the winter last year. So that said, in my opinion again, I really belive elk numbers are dramaticly down in this area, 76 will be behind the non draw units because of limited licences, but two years of low birth rates and looking like another could be coming will have an affect on the number of animals reaching maturity in 2 to 5 years. So yes I think numbers are down, but not just because of the winters which have been bad.
completesportsman
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,508
I hunted 751 this year during archery season and saw lots of elk but only saw a couple of calves.
GO HEELS!
GO HEELS!
Coloradoboy
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,388
Its not looking to good out in northwestern Colorado units 3,301,11,211 the snow is very deep and the temp is below 0 consistanly. I had a late season cow tag and was out Saturday and there was so much snow that the only way to acess even the low country was a sled. I've usually in the past had no problem killing a cow out there in december but with the snow it made accessing the country difficult and went all day with out seeing an elk on public land and very little sign to say the least.
H
huntelk8863
Guest
Sounds like you are in the same boat we are, lots of snow and cold. What a lot of people dont understand is just how the female elk takes care of themselves in extremely cold or deep snow where feed is difficult to find. A great deal of the time they will abort in an effort to stay alive and in years like the last year not only do we loose a calf, many mature elk were lost.
R
Rem308
Guest
I had a guy tell me that he hunted unit 4 in the first season and elk were hard to find,but he said he saw arround 100 dead carcases from last winter kill.
R
Rem308
Guest
That is why I went to muzzleloader hunting is to help get away from the crowds. Rifle season can get crazy.
R
RUFFNECK
Guest
Well I just so happen to work for the dow in the slv. We do a great job on the elk counts obivously we cannot count every individual animal in the area but with winter fly overs and summer foot counts our numbers are pretty consistent. In the west side of the Sangres there where a confirmed 3,000 elk and about the same amount in the eastern San Juans. The reason the dow wants to bring the elk numbers a little bit down is that with that many elk in an area they cause a lot of damage to the land and to ranchers properties, which ends up costing the agency money as well as not being able to manage the quality of the herds.
R
Rem308
Guest
I now only apply for limmited licenses,it helps make for a more pleasurable hunt for me.
H
huntelk8863
Guest
Ruff I have a couple of questions for you since you work for the DOW...Let me start by saying opinions are like you know what and I have both. So, I have friends who have been involved in your so called good counts, I respectfully disagree. I bet you truly do count all you see, the problem I belive lies in the multipliers you use that are ancient. There are a great deal of people, some bioligists included, believe that as the general elk population has declined and not to mention developed different habits, your multipliers have not changed for years. Maybe I am wrong but I dont think so. Next would be, now that through bad winters and high kill numbers it would appear your population objectives have been meet or most likely exceeded, what does the Dow and the Wildlife Commission plan to do about unlimited hunting numbers? There are many problems for your agency that have been created with your population objectives such as to name a couple. The general hunting experience is not good, now I have heard from you agency that we dont know how to hunt. Well some of us have spent a great deal of our lifes in the woods not only chasing these animals, but just learning about them, so in my opinion that is just the dictator(Commission)defending itself. I am just curious if you really are going to let history repeat itself as happened with the deer numbers or you are going to limit hunter numbers and deal with the budget issues that will follow. I bet history repeats itself and all will suffer. Next I would like to understand just how you come up with your healthy bull to cow ratios....10 to 15 total bulls to 100 cows is not healthy in any book I have ever looked at. I also wonder if when you count bulls are you counting all bulls including spikes and rags or just mature bulls. Ruff I do not think of the DOW as the enemy even though it may appear that way, your agency just happens to be our liasion to the dictator(Commission). Perhaps you can share information to help better inform those of us who share opinions.
Mark
Mark
Coloradoboy
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,388
I would really like to see Colorado cut back on tags. We have so many elk. Its a shame we don't produce bulls like utah, nevada, arizona, new mexico and arizona and montana for the most part. I feel the state should cut back on the amount of bull tags issued and try to produce some quality bulls. The out of state tags are just ridiculous. If lowering the herd numbers is important we just need to give more december cow tags and do spike hunts like utah does and allow for the mature bulls to breed instead of 2 and 3 year old bulls.
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HuntingGear
Guest
All of the Northern end of the state was hit hard last year.
I use a taxidermist out in Craig and He was way down on his mounts last year. I turned my tag back last fall but had a few buddies that went out any way, they said that under every tree there was a deer or elk carcass.
The state does not want to say how bad it really is because they want your $$$. Some people were filling doe tags, with that type of winter kill it will take 4 years at best to get the area back and that is if we stop shooting the few breeders that are left.
I use a taxidermist out in Craig and He was way down on his mounts last year. I turned my tag back last fall but had a few buddies that went out any way, they said that under every tree there was a deer or elk carcass.
The state does not want to say how bad it really is because they want your $$$. Some people were filling doe tags, with that type of winter kill it will take 4 years at best to get the area back and that is if we stop shooting the few breeders that are left.
H
HerbD
Guest
Coloradoboy,
Your news makes me glad I didn't draw that late cow tag this year.
Your news makes me glad I didn't draw that late cow tag this year.
E
Elkcrzy1
Guest
TERRIBLE TERRIBLE YEAR, bad winterkill no elk left in Colorado !!! The Dow says everything is fine though so we should be ok.
R
Rem308
Guest
Well ,if I go elk hunting and don't get an elk,it won't be the first time for that.But If I do not go elk hunting I won't get an elk and I'll miss the experience of hunting the mountains and at my age ,I know I don't have a bunch of years left in me.
So I am going hunting !!!
So I am going hunting !!!
Coloradoboy
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,388
Well the way its looking in the next few years is quanity and quality might be way down.... Dow should take a hint and cut tags big time we some animals to survive
4
4000fps
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-09 AT 07:41AM (MST)[p]The whole excuse about elk damaging rancher's property and haystacks is ridiculous. Since when did herd health have to revolve around what some rancher wants? Especially the same rancher that won't let people hunt the same animals that are supposedly devastating his property.
I do not believe Colorado has too many elk. I also think the DOW is full of retards. Mulies never have rebounded after the piss poor management that started in 1986, yet...they still issue doe tags, and 4th season buck tags.
Amazing...the DOW lets people hammer mulies with guns during the rut, but won't let people hunt elk with a gun during the rut. I thought there were too many elk, wouldn't that solve the "crisis"?
I do not believe Colorado has too many elk. I also think the DOW is full of retards. Mulies never have rebounded after the piss poor management that started in 1986, yet...they still issue doe tags, and 4th season buck tags.
Amazing...the DOW lets people hammer mulies with guns during the rut, but won't let people hunt elk with a gun during the rut. I thought there were too many elk, wouldn't that solve the "crisis"?
J
jsalas68
Guest
The 3,000 head of elk in the sangre de cristo are all on the nature conservancy. the only damage there doing is to each other. if you hunt unit 82 its pretty much all private land. There is some really nice bulls on mt. Blanca you just have to work hard for them but if you do get lucky you can bring down a huge bull. in unit 681 if you don't know any farmers you can forget about that hunt to. The dow has to do more and a least try and move them elk from private land and give a regular hunter a chance at a bull elk.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,529
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-09 AT 06:07PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-09
>AT 07:41?AM (MST)
>
>The whole excuse about elk damaging
>rancher's property and haystacks is
>ridiculous. Since when did herd
>health have to revolve around
>what some rancher wants? Especially
>the same rancher that won't
>let people hunt the same
>animals that are supposedly devastating
>his property.
>
>I do not believe Colorado has
>too many elk. I also
>think the DOW is full
>of retards. Mulies never have
>rebounded after the piss poor
>management that started in 1986,
>yet...they still issue doe tags,
>and 4th season buck tags.
>
>
>Amazing...the DOW lets people hammer mulies
>with guns during the rut,
>but won't let people hunt
>elk with a gun during
>the rut. I thought there
>were too many elk, wouldn't
>that solve the "crisis"?
I guess it will have to suffice to say that it is easy to call people names/throw rocks from the cheap seats. Doesn't get anything accomplished though. Never has, never will
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
>AT 07:41?AM (MST)
>
>The whole excuse about elk damaging
>rancher's property and haystacks is
>ridiculous. Since when did herd
>health have to revolve around
>what some rancher wants? Especially
>the same rancher that won't
>let people hunt the same
>animals that are supposedly devastating
>his property.
>
>I do not believe Colorado has
>too many elk. I also
>think the DOW is full
>of retards. Mulies never have
>rebounded after the piss poor
>management that started in 1986,
>yet...they still issue doe tags,
>and 4th season buck tags.
>
>
>Amazing...the DOW lets people hammer mulies
>with guns during the rut,
>but won't let people hunt
>elk with a gun during
>the rut. I thought there
>were too many elk, wouldn't
>that solve the "crisis"?
I guess it will have to suffice to say that it is easy to call people names/throw rocks from the cheap seats. Doesn't get anything accomplished though. Never has, never will
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
W
westernhunter1
Guest
i am pretty sure they only count the mature bulls and consider spikes and rags cows. not 100% but thats how it went down last time i was in the sky, or so it seemed haha.
E
exbiologist
Guest
Alright guys, there's a lot of opinion on here without a lot of factual information. I'm not planning on getting into what it takes to grow trophy elk, but I am pretty informed on population dynamics and the studies which help guide the Colorado Division of Wildlife's management policies. I have not worked for the CDOW, but I have worked with them and while many of the guys I've worked with may not have been overly friendly, they were not stupid people.
We all know that unlimited bull tags are rough on trophy quality, but they DO NOT AFFECT the overall population.
For starters, huntelk8863, where did you read that 10-15 elk per 100 cows is not healthy for the population? I've read studies that say elk recruitment is not affected until the bull:cow ratio drops below 10:100 cows in studies conducted in both Oregon and Colorado. And think about it, that may not be good for trophy hunting, but do you really think 1 bull cannot breed 10 cows? There have been studies that state that 2 year olds are not as effective at breeding elk during their first cycle as older bulls, but they do get the job done.
There are no units in Colorado with a POST SEASON population objective of less than 10 bulls:100 cows. Of course there can be the occasional blip, but that won't destroy a population as you seem to think it will. Westernhunter1, if they are only counting mature bulls in the counts, how can that be a bad thing with the post season counts? Or maybe you were defending the DOW, in which case, sorry.
The only way to reduce the elk population in Colorado is through cow hunting, not bulls.
The winters here are not severe enough to kill elk in significant numbers. Quote me a study conducted in an area without wolves that does say snow levels or winter severity indices negatively affect recruitment and I'll quote you ten that say they don't. Drought does, but not winter severity in elk. Also, keep in mind that after severe winters in Colorado, cow elk typically have better recruitment due to increased forage quality from the increased moisture levels.
4000fps, the Colorado Division of Wildlife manages elk based on two factors: social tolerance and winter range quality. It doesn't matter if you disagree with it, that's how it is. If you were a rancher and you hundreds of elk in your stackyards, grazing your winter feed for your cattle and ruining your management plans, wouldn't you be pissed? Personally I don't believe payments should be made, nor stackyard assistance given to ranchers who charge for hunting access, which is what they do in other states that I have worked. But also, please realize the ranches where the elk winter are often not where the elk occur during hunting season. So the guy with elk all over his cattle's winter grounds (yes, it was the elk's first, but so was the land your house is on) probably isn't the same guy charging access during the season, or it's leased by an outfitter.
Lastly, right now you have an opportunity to nominate DAUs for limitation. So go ahead and do so, but realize you'll have to notify the local chamber of commerce, sportsman's groups and outifitters association. Limiting a unit will cost an area(not just the DOW) MILLIONS of dollars, so if you want to receive some hate mail, go ahead and threaten someone's livelihood.
Both elk that I killed in Colorado this year had calves in and around them, does that mean recruitment there was great? No. Nor does not seeing any calves. I shot a really nice bull last year and didn't see any calves, does that mean elk in that unit are doomed? Elkcrzy1, seriously, do you really think there are no elk left in Colorado?
For the guys complaining about the Craig area, unit 4 etc, I saw more elk than I've ever seen with a gun in my hand on my first season hunt this year in the first 3 hours of the season, than all my other elk hunts in the last 10 years. I won't go back, but that's a trophy issue(but I still shot a little 7x7), not a population issue.
We've all eaten tag soup before and want to blame someone other than ourselves, but come on, take a breather. The elk are doing fine. And if you're going to hit me with hate mail, please have your facts ready.
We all know that unlimited bull tags are rough on trophy quality, but they DO NOT AFFECT the overall population.
For starters, huntelk8863, where did you read that 10-15 elk per 100 cows is not healthy for the population? I've read studies that say elk recruitment is not affected until the bull:cow ratio drops below 10:100 cows in studies conducted in both Oregon and Colorado. And think about it, that may not be good for trophy hunting, but do you really think 1 bull cannot breed 10 cows? There have been studies that state that 2 year olds are not as effective at breeding elk during their first cycle as older bulls, but they do get the job done.
There are no units in Colorado with a POST SEASON population objective of less than 10 bulls:100 cows. Of course there can be the occasional blip, but that won't destroy a population as you seem to think it will. Westernhunter1, if they are only counting mature bulls in the counts, how can that be a bad thing with the post season counts? Or maybe you were defending the DOW, in which case, sorry.
The only way to reduce the elk population in Colorado is through cow hunting, not bulls.
The winters here are not severe enough to kill elk in significant numbers. Quote me a study conducted in an area without wolves that does say snow levels or winter severity indices negatively affect recruitment and I'll quote you ten that say they don't. Drought does, but not winter severity in elk. Also, keep in mind that after severe winters in Colorado, cow elk typically have better recruitment due to increased forage quality from the increased moisture levels.
4000fps, the Colorado Division of Wildlife manages elk based on two factors: social tolerance and winter range quality. It doesn't matter if you disagree with it, that's how it is. If you were a rancher and you hundreds of elk in your stackyards, grazing your winter feed for your cattle and ruining your management plans, wouldn't you be pissed? Personally I don't believe payments should be made, nor stackyard assistance given to ranchers who charge for hunting access, which is what they do in other states that I have worked. But also, please realize the ranches where the elk winter are often not where the elk occur during hunting season. So the guy with elk all over his cattle's winter grounds (yes, it was the elk's first, but so was the land your house is on) probably isn't the same guy charging access during the season, or it's leased by an outfitter.
Lastly, right now you have an opportunity to nominate DAUs for limitation. So go ahead and do so, but realize you'll have to notify the local chamber of commerce, sportsman's groups and outifitters association. Limiting a unit will cost an area(not just the DOW) MILLIONS of dollars, so if you want to receive some hate mail, go ahead and threaten someone's livelihood.
Both elk that I killed in Colorado this year had calves in and around them, does that mean recruitment there was great? No. Nor does not seeing any calves. I shot a really nice bull last year and didn't see any calves, does that mean elk in that unit are doomed? Elkcrzy1, seriously, do you really think there are no elk left in Colorado?
For the guys complaining about the Craig area, unit 4 etc, I saw more elk than I've ever seen with a gun in my hand on my first season hunt this year in the first 3 hours of the season, than all my other elk hunts in the last 10 years. I won't go back, but that's a trophy issue(but I still shot a little 7x7), not a population issue.
We've all eaten tag soup before and want to blame someone other than ourselves, but come on, take a breather. The elk are doing fine. And if you're going to hit me with hate mail, please have your facts ready.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,529
For a first post, you sure pack a whallop! Well thought out comments. We can have dissagreements, but lets work with facts, not emotion and name calling.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
4
4000fps
Guest
> If you were a
>rancher and you hundreds of
>elk in your stackyards, grazing
>your winter feed for your
>cattle and ruining your management
>plans, wouldn't you be pissed?
I would build a fence. Maybe it could also be considered payback for grazing the cattle on public land during the summer.
>rancher and you hundreds of
>elk in your stackyards, grazing
>your winter feed for your
>cattle and ruining your management
>plans, wouldn't you be pissed?
I would build a fence. Maybe it could also be considered payback for grazing the cattle on public land during the summer.
R
Rem308
Guest
When it comes to grazing rights on public land,I think that any rancher that is granted grazing on public land should allow a few hunters on there ranch without any fees.
Just my way of thinking .
Just my way of thinking .
H
huntelk8863
Guest
Nice post exbiologist. It is nice to hear the other side of the debate. You shared more information in one post than I have gotten in numerous meetings. In regards to the DAU limitations I personally would much rather see the entire state be limited and dont think it would destroy the economy as some belive. It would have an effect yes, but unit 76 is proof it is not as bad as some would like us to belive. Now it would be a problem in the eyes of those who grew up hunting every year where ever and when ever they wanted. That method does not exist in any other state that I am aware of and no longer exists here with deer. I wonder why, we over hunted (mis managed) the resource. I would like to think we are smart enough not to let it happen again. My arguement is simply that with the lower population objectives that the DOW have stated, it might be time to consider this. I dont disagree in anyway with the stated objectives, I do however strongly diagree with unlimited hunting and am not afraid of any hate mail.
Mark
Mark
