B&C Confirms Spyder #1

[browtine]

http://boone-crockett.org/

Boone and Crockett Club Confirms New World's Record Elk
Friday, January 02, 2009
MISSOULA, Mont.?Perhaps the largest elk ever produced in the wild?a Utah bull taken in 2008 by a hunter on public land?has been confirmed as a new World's Record. The official declaration was made today by the Boone and Crockett Club.

A Special Judges Panel determined a final score of 478-5/8 Boone and Crockett non-typical points, an incredible 93 inches above the B&C minimum score of 385 for non-typical American elk and 13-plus inches larger than the previous World?s Record.

With official data dating back to 1830, at 499-3/8 inches it is the only elk on record with a gross score approaching the 500-inch mark.

The giant bull has 9 points on the left antler and 14 points on the right. The larger antler has a base circumference over nine inches.

The Boone and Crockett scoring system, long used to measure the success of wildlife conservation and management programs across North America, rewards antler size and symmetry, but also recognizes Nature's imperfections with non-typical categories for most antlered game. The bull?s final score of 478-5/8 inches included an incredible 140 inches of abnormal points.

"Along with measurements that honor the quality of the animal, Boone and Crockett Club records also honor fair-chase hunting," said Eldon Buckner, chairman of the Club?s Records of North American Big Game committee. "Through our entry process, signed affidavits and follow-up interviews with the hunter, his guides, and state and federal officials, we were satisfied that this bull was indeed a wild, free-ranging trophy and that the tenets of fair chase were used in the harvest."

The hunter, Denny Austad of Ammon, Idaho, hunted the Monroe Mountain District in south-central Utah. Hunting with a self-designed rifle, Austad killed the bull on Sept. 30, 2008. He hunted for 13 days before connecting with the trophy, dubbed ?spider bull? for its unique antler configuration.

On behalf of the Boone and Crockett Club, Buckner congratulated Austad and credited his new World?s Record to the tremendous management of habitat and wildlife by the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and the Fishlake National Forest.

"Utah's conservation professionals really deserve a pat on the back, as do the citizens of Utah for their support of their state?s wildlife programs," said Buckner.

Across North America, ever-improving conservation practices have translated to flourishing big game populations, with balanced age-class and mature, trophy animals. Over the past 30 years, qualifying Boone and Crockett records book entries for American elk have increased 193 percent from a total of 14 in 1977 to 41 in 2007.

Across all categories of native North American big game the overall trend is even higher with 344 qualifiers in 1977 up to 1,151 in 2007--a 234 percent increase.

The previous World?s Record for non-typical American elk was 465-2/8 B&C points. That bull was found dead, frozen in Upper Arrow Lake, B.C., in 1994, and was entered into Boone and Crockett Club records by the B.C. Ministry of Environment on behalf of the citizens of British Columbia.

For hunter-taken non-typical American elk, the previous top bull scored 450-6/8 B&C points, taken in 1998 in Apache County, Ariz., by Alan Hamberlin.

Boone and Crockett Club also keeps records for Roosevelt's and Tule elk. World's Records for these categories are substantially smaller than those for American elk.


About the Boone and Crockett Club
Founded by Theodore Roosevelt in 1887, the Boone and Crockett Club promotes guardianship and visionary management of big game and associated wildlife in North America. The Club maintains the highest standards of fair-chase sportsmanship and habitat stewardship, and is the universally recognized keeper of the records of native North American big game. Member accomplishments include protecting Yellowstone and establishing Glacier and Denali national parks, founding the National Forest Service, National Park Service and National Wildlife Refuge System, fostering the Pittman-Robertson and Lacey Acts, creating the Federal Duck Stamp program, and developing the cornerstones of modern game laws. The Boone and Crockett Club is headquartered in Missoula, Mont.

Later, Brandon

 

[ktc]

""On behalf of the Boone and Crockett Club, Buckner congratulated Austad and credited his new World?s Record to the tremendous management of habitat and wildlife by the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and the Fishlake National Forest.

"Utah's conservation professionals really deserve a pat on the back, as do the citizens of Utah for their support of their state?s wildlife programs," said Buckner.""

WTF?????????!!!!!!!!!

I think we need to fix the elk herd. It is all messed up.;-)

I am pleased Mr. Buckner can see the success of Utah's elk management. Too bad the tards can't.

 

[bobcatbess]

IN 2009 WE WILL DECIMATE ANY CHANCE OF ANY OFF SPRING OF THE SPIDER BULL SURVIVING PAST THE PISSCUTTER AGE!!!

GREAT WORK UTAH CONSERVATION PROFFESSIONALS!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!

 

[slamdunk]

"Mr Buckner would also like to thank the fine people of Canada for the semen to make it all possible."

Just kiddin!!!

Way to go Denny and mossee possee, what a lifetime acheivement!!

 

[bobcatbess]

EASY PUNK!!!

YOU CAN'T JOKE WITH Brow ON THIS SUBJECT!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!

 

[LESGO54]

did anybody find out how long of a drive it was from canada to utah hauling the spidey bull in a trailer

 

[bobcatbess]

HAS ANYBODY CLUED DENNY IN ON THE 600" BULL FOR 2009???

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!

 

[ClorideRUS]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-09 AT 06:00PM (MST)[p]"Along with measurements that honor the quality of the animal, Boone and Crockett Club records also honor fair-chase hunting," said Eldon Buckner, chairman of the Club?s Records of North American Big Game committee. "Through our entry process, signed affidavits and follow-up interviews with the hunter, his guides, and state and federal officials, we were satisfied that this bull was indeed a wild, free-ranging trophy and that the tenets of fair chase were used in the harvest."

I wonder if anybody interviewed tines up? Just wondering?

RUS

 

[browtine]

>EASY PUNK!!!
>
>YOU CAN'T JOKE WITH Brow ON
>THIS SUBJECT!!!

Knock it off Bess. You too slam.

Later, Brandon

 

[isayNUNYA]

Sorry Bess. Hopefully you will draw next year and get to hunt the 600" bull. Or you could just buy a spike tag.

---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"

 

[bobcatbess]

WILL YOU GUYS MAKE FUN OF ME IF I HARVEST THE SPIDER BULLS SON???

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!

 

[LESGO54]

we have to bess, its in our blood

 

[fldrw22]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-09 AT 07:07PM (MST)[p]I will bite my tongue

 

[browtine]

Hey Cracker, sounds like one of your typical dates

Later, Brandon

 

[fldrw22]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-09 AT 07:12PM (MST)[p]OUCH ! BROW .You caught my post before I decided to bite my tongue .Great response though ,Thats exactly why I decided to shut the hell up .I have a date tonight .LOL.

 

[schmalts]

>"."

>
>Way to go Denny and mossee
>possee, what a lifetime acheivement!!
>
>
>
>
Lifetime acheivement?? not when your rich and UT has the wealth hunting program. How many years in the past has this guy hunted public land in UT in front of everyone else?
If it was Bobcat it would be a lifetime achievement thing because that is the only time he will draw a tag, once in a lifetime.
Sorry, I am not impressed when a guy can go hunting every year in front of everyone else because he doesn't have to play by the same rules. Kill the wealth tags, pay more for yours

 

[ClorideRUS]

bobcatbess.. keep putting in for that pisscutter Basin hunt. You never know when you'll get a crack at Spidey's Mom or little sister. I heard some of the guides are giving discount's to cry babies.

RUS

 

[southslope82]

Well I am glad that its confirmed "WILD". I thought it was a wild bull the whole time but I do wonder how heavily investigated this bull was just out of curiosity, not questioning that its wild at all. Thats one hell of a wild bull I don't care who shot it thats cool.

 

[ColoradoOak]

Hey Brandon, I told you 500" wasn't official. ;-)

 

[BlueMountainAdventures]

Wow! What a monster! I agree about the guys that just plop down money to a certain extent. I am an Outfitter that have a few monster bull outfitter tags for sale, so I market them to the guys that can afford them. Supply and demand baby!
Here is the deal....If all of you guys were set up to plop down big money on an elk or deer tag, you would do it too! If you say you wouldnt, I wonder how realistic you are. Its like that Oregon bull killed in Washington in 2008. Dan Agnew killed this bull. He was there looking for this bull before most guys think. He did not just show up and shoot it and fly out. He is a man that can afford to hunt monster bulls. Honestly, MOST of us would do the same thing, if we could. Anyhow......the bar has been raised!!!

 

[WARBIRDUM]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-09 AT 09:02AM (MST)[p]Dennys trophy room has to be in two different time zones.
Congrats to hunter and guides on this one remember everyone who was after this bull before he was harvested had a chance all FAIR CHASE.
This bull deserves the credit it won't be beat for a very long time if ever.

 

[piper]

I guess this is what our wildlife is all about, "supply and demand baby"i.e. money, and "the bar has just been raised, i.e. competition". pretty sad actually

 

[BlueMountainAdventures]

Actually, there have always been guides! Are you so narrow minded that you dont realize that some people enjoy our sport but dont have the time or knowledge to do it on their own? Get off your high horse!
FYI.....I have a bull tag for sale thats unit wide in Wenaha that takes guys 15 years to draw. SO should I sell it to you for pennies? THINK ABOUT IT!

 

[ktc]

Money, money, money, blah, blah, blah.

I think the true meaning of B&C is to recognize the animal. Spidey was Spidey no matter who killed him. I think it is pretty neat that I saw this animal in pictures on the hoof and then someone was lucky enough to get him. If I could have bought the chance to kill him, I would have.

If B&C recognizes him and accepts him then it is not up to me to question it based on my opinion.

That bull is unreal in size. Had I had a tag I would have missed anyway. I would have been cleaning the chit from my britches.

 

[piper]

It would be interesting to know what Teddy Roosevelts take on some of the modern day trophy hunting that goes on in the lower 48. He went on some elaborate expeditions, but the country was a much wilder place then, Im guessing he would see the big picture and understand but he probably wouldn't be a part of it.

 

[browtine]

>Hey Brandon, I told you 500"
>wasn't official. ;-)

haha, I was told the panel wouldn't change the score... guess I was wrong.

Does that article say there have only been 41 B&C bulls entered into the books since 1977? wow, that number surprises me.

Later, Brandon

 

[AZStickman]

"It would be interesting to know what Teddy Roosevelts take on some of the modern day trophy hunting that goes on in the lower 48."

I'd imagine he'd rate this hunt right there with the one that got the "Teddy Bear" its name....... Terry

 

[BlueMountainAdventures]

Nice post.....Teddy was a big hunter, and trust me.....he PAID guides! Some people are just against guided hunts cause they are jealous. PERIOD!

 

[proutdoors]

Guides have been around since the beginning of man. Jim Bridger and Jedidiah Smith were guides and were PAID to do it. Teddy Roosevelt PAID guides for many/most of his hunts. Also, comparing to how he hunted back in the day to how people hunt now is nonsensical; I'm guessing he didn't have GPS, topo maps, spotting scopes, goretex, the internet, rifles with scopes on that allow for 400+ yard shots, ATV's, 4X4 trucks, Swarovski binos, etc, etc. To say you hunt like Teddy did is pure BS!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[AZStickman]

"Nice post.....Teddy was a big hunter, and trust me.....he PAID guides! Some people are just against guided hunts cause they are jealous. PERIOD!?"

I don't see any mention of guides in my post. I've had a guides license in the past and have been on guided hunts myself. The hunt I referred to was one where the guides Roosevelt was hunting Bear with tied a bear to a tree and then took him to the spot to shoot it. He refused stating it didn't meet his standards of fair chase.

I believe the record books although started for the right reasons have grown into a chase for inches that is perverting our sport and may ultimately be the end of it.

We are rapidly losing what was once a sport whose measurement of achievement was the level of woodsmanship one attained that lead to success. Success was not measured in inches.

While I don't have an issue with guides I do not see the recent development of Posse hunting and the payment of finders fees by outfitters as something that is going to have a positive outcome for our sport. I do not think the record books any longer have value for our sport.

From my point of view this generation of hunters sees the killing of a "trophy" animal, as measured in inches, as the ultimate goal. I guess I come from a different era and am having a hard time understanding this style of hunting. As a youngster,and to this day, the ultimate accomplishment in the field for me would be to pick up the tracks of an animal and have the woodsmanship and skill to be able to track it down and take it cleanly.

As a hunter I take pride in defining my own personal standards of fair chase, just like Teddy did so many years ago, and gauging success by my ability to set limitations and stick to them. To me success is measured by knowledge gained about yourself and the game you pursue. The kill is only the end of one hunt and the beginning of the next.

Terry

 

[ktc]

To define your own standards does that mean we all can have a World Record?

Boone and Crockett has measured trophies and sucess by inches for 150 years or whatever it is and Teddy R. was the Founder of the org that uses inches to measure the trophy? Am I wrong?

Some people shoot female animals for meat, that is great. Some people shoot behing a fence, that is fine too if you like it. Some will shoot anything with horns, fine by me. I like to see where I stack up in the world of hunting so I enter anything that qualifies? Is that wrong? After all Teddy R. started it!

Why does it piss people off because someone shot, by the Fair Chase rules of B&C a new record? I just don't get it? It will not change how I put on my pants tomorrow morning either way. If you do not like inches, then don't look? If YOU shot a 525 next fall would YOU enter it? I would and then I would sit back and enjoy the mount and my name a top the record book while everyone pissed and moaned. If you say you would not enter it you are lying.

Jealousy is not a good thing.

 

[bobcatbess]

HEY ktc!!!

JUST SO YOU KNOW!!!

I AIN'T PISSED AT NOBODY!!!

AM I JEALOUS THAT MS ktc HAS A BIGGER BULL TO HER NAME THAN ME???

HELL NO,I'M VERY GLAD & HAPPY FOR HER!!!

AND YOU TOO ty!!!

THE NEW LE PISSCUTTER HUNTS TOTALLY PISS ME OFF!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!

 

[doityourself]

I wonder if the reason people get so mad about B and C entries like the "Spider" bull is that the some of these animals, are not taken in the same way as others. There is a huge difference in someone taking an animal DIY, and I mean completely on their own. No buddies helping, no tips where to go etc.....and someone who pays hundreds of thousands of dollars for a legalized hunting business to send their employees/guides out to look for trophies, for their customer to hunt/shoot. I don't think it is even remotely comparable.

The thing that ticks me off is, publishing magazine articles/pictures about these kinds of hunts. I could care less about the animals that Randy Ulmer, Cameron Hanes, Guy Eastman, Chuck Adams, Mossback or any other professional hunter takes. It's their job!! It's what they do! These guys have the funds, the hookups, the backing, and the time to go do what the rest of us can only dream of.

I would rather see pics or hear stories of regular dudes going out and taking great animals, although even then I question why someone would want to publish an article about their trophy and by default screw up their honey hole. That would be the last thing I would want is someone seeing my pic in a horn mag somewhere, and end up on the same ridge as me on opening day.

Maybe we should have a seperate book for "celebrity" hunters to enter their trophies?

 

[cabinfever]

>The hunter, Denny Austad of Ammon, Idaho, hunted the Monroe >Mountain District in south-central Utah. Hunting with a self->designed rifle, Austad killed the bull on Sept. 30, 2008. He >hunted for 13 days before connecting with the trophy, >dubbed ?spider bull? for its unique antler configuration.

Funny there is no mention of mossback guides, but with a self designed rifle who needs a guide.Call a spade a spade!

I also find it interesting that they made an attempt at finding out wether the spider bull was wild or raised behind a fence. Elk aren't even native to southern Utah so what does it matter. Talk to the old timers who grew up hunting deer in the early 1900's. They never seen an elk. Elk were planted and managed by the DWR 3-4 decades ago.It certainly don't take away the lure and excitment of hunting the critters. I sure can't wait to have my crack at one, but lets call a spade a spade.

Sorry about the rant. I honestly have no problem with the hunter or new world record but some of the statements in this article are nothing short of pathectic.

 

[wileywapati]

Fever hit the nail on the head!!
Call it like it is and don't try and work the spin of jealousy or the other ##### the closet guides on here push.

Great Bull Great hunt but it is exactly what it is

 

[AndymanSavage]

Awesome.

-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/

 

[ktc]

bobcat,

Hell no I am not mad at anyone, never am!

I am not in awe at Austad or anything. Truth be known it was a guide who really "killed" the bull. Denny just pulled the trigger. I think what I am getting at is B&C keeps track of records and recognizes the animal. The bull is big and scary, so he is recognized as he should be. I guess I am not really caring who's name it is? I would bet regardless of who had a chance at him this year, they probably would have had some kind of help from someone with info, areas, or whatever?

No matter if any of the Monroe tag holders this year killed him, Spidey would be on top where he should be. The who part does not really matter unless it was me of course!

I agree, the whole deal is what it is, and the bull is where he should be. I just sometimes wonder if people don't get a little envious and have their own definition how it should be done? I know I have my ways, but it is a personal thing.

Oh well, like I said, it won't change what I have for breakfast tomorrow either way.

 

[schmalts]

jealousy was mentioned in a few posts. Are some of you really that stupid to think that anyone who says they are not impressed with the situation of UT's wealth tag system is jealous? Really, I am not impressed with this guy... being able to buy a tag in the best places to hunt every year instead of drawing it fair and square is as frigging lame as going to a high fence in my opinion.

 

[piper]

AZStickman- That was a good post and its how I feel also, I don't know why all this jealousy and supposed guide hatred talk comes up,they seem really defensive for some reason. I have been on a guided hunt and a few guided fishing trips, and don't see anything wrong with guiding. I really don't think some of these guys knew about the teddy bear story, kinda strange

 

[krp]

I have to wonder at these two statements B&C made.

"Perhaps the largest elk produced in the wild".

and

"With official data dating back to 1830, at 499-3/8 inches it is the only elk on record with a gross score approaching the 500-inch mark".

If they would have stated that the Spider bull was the new B&C world record at 499-3/8 gross and 478-5/8 net then that would be fine.

They aren't qualifying these statements as their club member's accepted entries but as any elk's numbers ever since 1830. They do have 'official data they collected themselves, with interviews ect', that didn't disqualify the animal.

I bring this up because anytime someone puts known untruths into a otherwise convincing pitch when they didn't have to, it makes me go, hmmm.

Anyway, congrats to the Spider bull for being the new B&C World Record, what a fantastic bull, and congrats to Mr Austad also for being the new B&C record holder.

Kent

 

[AZStickman]

"Boone and Crockett has measured trophies and sucess by inches for 150 years or whatever it is and Teddy R. was the Founder of the org that uses inches to measure the trophy? Am I wrong?"

You're right for the most part. Boone and Crocket was founded by Teddy Roosevelt and several others in response to overhunting by market and subsistance hunters and a need to establish a standard of fair chase, as evidenced by the Teddy Bear story. The original system paid honors to the animals of exceptional trophy size but did not include the name of the hunter. It was not a measurement of success.

There are many hunters each year that harvest exceptional animals and choose not to enter them in the books. While I have no quarrel with those wishing to enter animals in the record book I do believe it's time for the keepers of the books to redefine fair chase and consider going back to the original system of honoring the animal and not the hunter.

Terry

 

[isayNUNYA]

Terry, sounds like you know more than the rest of us about what really happend with this bull. Enlighten us on the how it really happened. Some of us just want to know.



---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"

 

[txhunter58]

" There is a huge difference in someone taking an animal DIY, and I mean completely on their own. No buddies helping, no tips where to go etc.....and someone who pays hundreds of thousands of dollars for a legalized hunting business to send their employees/guides out to look for trophies, for their customer to hunt/shoot. I don't think it is even remotely comparable. "

Define: "and I mean COMPLETELY on their own". I am sure your defination is different than mine is different than Tom, #####, and Harry's.....

As you state it, that would mean no "research" using other people. No calls to Fish and game personel to check on areas. No research on the net. No using of areas that your Dad/brothers told you about. You have to find a new area TOTALLY on your own?

Do you drive a 4x4 pickup or ATV to your hunting area? How much did you pay for it? Not sure you can say you did it totally DIY when you used that. What kind of rifle do you use? Scope? Binoculars? How much money did you spend on them? Did they "assist" you in taking your last game animal?

Get on a bowhunting website sometime and look at how some there look down on those that don't use bows. Of course, many of them use compounds........

Be careful where you set the bar, others can always put it higher than yours.

All I can really say is whether "I" would get personal satisfaction from killing an animal in a certain way. I can not judge another who takes it within the rules as stated or written.

That said, I am glad that B & C has recognized the animal. I also like the idea stated above of putting the animal back in the place of honor instead of the hunter.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[ktc]

Drunkin Dwarf,

You drinkin' today? If so, I am going to stick around for some fun! ;-)

I have already been called stupid. That is okay. Next time I get a PM or phone call begging for help I won't forget it.

 

[gemstatejake]

Guides are great. Some dudes need em. I routinely irritate the hell out of guides in areas I hunt. seems they feel the animals are theirs and should only be killed by their "clients".HA! too bad fellas! Guide allocated tags for limited entry areas is a fukking joke. A practice that sportsman should begin to eradicate ASAP. Bluemountain bragging about some tag he has for sale is a slap in the face to DIY types everywhere. I'd probably be inclined to push his blind over or pour bleach in his waterhole too.........................

 

[piper]

its not about setting bars, its a conversation about ethics and how people feel when it comes to doing whatever it takes to kill an animal. new technology comes up every year that makes us a more effecient predator, in another post I see a couple of bulls that were killed at over a thousand yards, it sounds like the elk didn't have a chance, 10 years from now 2000 yard shots might be common, yea its complicated, but we have a finite resource that we all own and we as hunters have stake in the future of trophy hunting. I don't understand why but I guess to some the spider hunt was the pinnacle of successful trophy hunting. The B and C club decided to put a happy face on the hunt, what else could they do? but sometime in the future the limits of fair chase are going to have to be updated, and taking the name of the hunter out of the Book is a good idea once again

 

[txhunter58]

Granted, it is a converstaion about ethics, but ethics is about setting a bar, at least to me.

Some things are just hard to legislate. How do you outlaw "assualt rifles" when the only difference between them and a normal semiautomatic rifle is a stock and a clip.

And how do you outlaw what was done on this bull without screwing with spending money on hunting and outfitting.

Ok, someone post the icon of beating a dead horse!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[BlueMountainAdventures]

Yea, you probably would! too bad u feel this way about outfitters/guides. My clients love my outfitt and tags thank you. You just cant afford anything like that, cause ur priorities are different.

 

[ktc]

B&C recognizes the animal. Perfect.

The hunter should also be recognized. Why not and who cares? Many of the records are found already dead. I like seeing a great animal and the name when a friend or family got it done. It gives ownership to that great animal that is recognized.

This has nothing to do with wealth tags. That is another argument. I don't really care for them but they are here to stay and no I cannot afford one. The tag was bought legally within the limits set by the state. So why should that impact if it is a record or not? If not should a guy with max points who was guaranteed a tag be disqualified?

High fence should not be allowed as it is not. Why does a DIY guy care if someone needs or uses a guide? That makes no sense to me. If I go to Alaska or Canada or the Wyoming Wilderness I have to have a guide. No one should be punished for that. I won't hire one but those who do are hunters as well.

I bought a Colorado deer voucher last year. Good thing I never killed a 180+ to taint and tarnish the record book of probably the best conservation org out there.

Why the sour grapes?

 

[piper]

sour grapes have nothing to do with it, its The name helps create the obsession thats eating away at the finite resource, the competition that drives the technology thats taking away the opportunity for the average hunter to have reasonable success at killing a trophy animal. Allready you are seeing the results of that in Utah, it sounds like the big bulls are getting whacked faster than they can be grown and still only a relatively few get to hunt, kids that are just starting to hunt now have a grim outlook on opportunity, in other words the animals stand little chance against hunters with all these high tec tools and a big posse of guides or whatever. You have to understand that getting your name in the BOOK is a big deal to a lot of people. Try looking at the big picture and imagine where this sport is going to be 20 years from now

 

[bobcatbess]

WITH POOR MANAGEMENT PLANS IN PLACE!!!

IT WON'T TAKE 20 YEARS!!!

PAY ATTENTION piper!!!

IT AIN'T JUST THE "NEW TOOLS" DESTROYING THE HERDS!!!

"I'M NOT COMPLAINING,I'M TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS,SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,THATS O.K.,SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS & YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT,OR YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE FACTS ARE,STAND UP & VOICE YOUR OWN OPINION,THIS IS STILL AMERICA THE LAST TIME I CHECKED"!!!

REMEMBER!!!

THERE'S ONLY ONE bobcat!!!

 

[Cam@strawberry]

piper to get quality you have to limit, and to get great quality such as UT has you have to manage stringently. Don't tell me you dont want quality cause i and everyone else knows thats a bald faced lie. Quit whining about how the future is dismal and all is lost because one state offers CONSERVATION tags as a way to enhance the wildlife and offer more opportunity. I know your gonna come back with the, its not the tags, its the marketing and the way it happens now argument. Save it, the number of diy guys with a possee of friends and family, your bread and butter argument, still far outweighs the number of big money guys hunting the animals. You seriously expect us to believe that because a few outfitters market a few animals that the DIY arent killing trophy animals?? WAFJ.

Wildlife population control specialist

 

[piper]

to get quality you have to make sure animals get a chance to become mature, stringent quotas, habitat for the animals to escape pressure, primative weapons rules, those are all management tools, I was trying to make a point about possibly why the original record book only honored the animal, not the hunter, I understand the one tag and twenty members of the hunting party thing, thats why I said guides or whatever

 

[ktc]

piper,

I am not trying to argue with you. I can see how you feel and have enjoyed your responses to some degree. You leave me scratching my head though.

Your thinking on records, inches, and names makes me believe everyone and everything should be equal? Competition in all aspects of life is what makes America what it is. Are you saying the NBA, NFL, and MLB should not keep score? No MVP Awards? No standings? No highest scorer in history? Just give a number and not who did it?

Should everyone be paid the same so no one has an advantage by buying a tag or help? Should all tags and areas be exactly the same so no advantage lies anywhere for anyone lucky or rich? If I can get something that qualifies for a record it even makes it more sweet to do it my way on my budget.

It is a fact of life some people will have and get more than others in just about everything. This discussion is starting to remind me of Church Ball where we can only play for fun? So no one gets their feeling shurt?

 

[piper]

I know its confusing, maybe Im confused, I just wonder about so much competition in the killing of wildlife. I have all the B and C award books and dream about getting a record book elk like most of us here. I guess its the ongoing trend that I see in this that bothers me the most

 

[schmalts]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-09 AT 07:18PM (MST)[p]KTC, dont get the wrong idea. I was basicly called a jealous douch because I am not ready to slap this guy on tha back and say congrats. My post was aimed at the fact that just because someone says they are not impressed that this guy killed this animal they get called jealous. Do you really feel that anyone who isn't impressed with the fact that some guy can throw down a pile of cash and hunt the best of the best spots year after year is only jealous? You know where my passion lies, and how I feel about wealth tags.
It almost gets like the Yankees winning the world series overy other year you know what I mean?
When a guy can get tags like you and your wife had every year they can do things others cannot, like set the bar higher for yourself every year. You didn't have that option. most guys wont. because they can only hope to draw this tag maybe 2 times in their life if they are lucky.
Your wife killing the bull she did was far more impressive to me than this guy pulling a trigger on a bull that had a bounty on it's head.
Everyone has their own line draw where they start to get turned off on what is happening with hunting, and it isn't jealousy

 

[schmalts]

>
>>
>Should everyone be paid the same
>so no one has an
>advantage by buying a tag
>or help? Should all tags
>and areas be exactly the
>same so no advantage lies
>anywhere for anyone lucky or
>rich? .
>
Buying a tag should not be an option period. And no, there should be no advantage for the rich when it comes to getting a tag for a public land hunt.
JMO

 

[ktc]

schmalts,

Like I said, I am not in awe of the hunter. I am not a guy who uses guides either. I just think no matter what, if legal like they said it is, the bull should have his place at number 1. They do it one way and I do it another. I like my way, but I would hate to see a great animal disqualified because it cost a lot if it is free ranging. By all fair chase critters entered, it makes it even more sweet to qualify when I have to wait out my turn, go alone, research myself, and rely on myself. I sense some people are bitter? I should have used the word bitter instead of jealous.

I have always said I would rather find a 360 on my own using my research than have a 380 shown to me to shoot with no effort on my behalf? I dont think the 380 should be disqualified though. I guess everyone has their own ideas?

 

[isayNUNYA]

I talked to Schmalts last year on the phone. I gave him some info on the pahvant and other units. I told him I would help him if he drew out. I think if he ever kills a book bull in Ut. it should be diqualified for that reason. And he should be flamed on MM for killing a bull with the help of "the posse"


---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"

 

[WARBIRDUM]

Is anyone a real true blue DIY hunter?I think some claim to be but including myself will talk to anyone I can on areas of interest to at least get started on units once I have drawn,and that's even if you know the unit some what.What's wrong with that it's kind if like being guided in a way but the guide is not on your hunt with you.
To be a real DIY hunter is to go in blind learn the unit on your own and hunt without anybody helping you on your hunt be it guide or family and freinds without any info from anyone.Now tell me who draws these good tags and does the entire hunt without getting some kind of info or help in one way or another?Most know what kind of animals the unit can produce and ask biologist,past hunters,or just about anybody that will talk about the unit they have drawn or are trying to draw before they even show up for scouting or hunting.Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.How ever a book animal is taken as long as it has been taken under fair chase conditions and the hunter wants to enter it let them do it if you don't like it don't buy or look at the record books or names who have taken these great animals the choice is that easy. If I could buy tags every year I would or buy guys like me a tag every once in a while.Hear that Denny?Ha

 

[schmalts]

>
> I talked to Schmalts last
>year on the phone. I
>gave him some info on
>the pahvant and other units.
>I told him I would
>help him if he drew
>out. I think if he
>ever kills a book bull
>in Ut. it should be
>diqualified for that reason. And
>he should be flamed on
>MM for killing a bull
>with the help of "the
>posse"
>

Boy I must have hit a sore spot here with some. I think we agree on a lot though as I see KTC is saying what i feel too. I never said the animal should not be in the book, nor did I say it was not an impressive animal. I did say the hunter did not impress me for being able to hunt every year over and over again.
Getting as much info as one can before hitting the ground on a once in a lifetime hunt is a bit different than going every year after year. Once again JMO

 

[cohntr6]

Interesting..
Jeff

 

[Deerlove]

Enough crying is spidey going to be at the convention???

 

[cowslayer]

Congrats all on a World Record Bull.

CS

"Helping turn good tags, into great ones." - www.vipoptics.com

 

[nebo12000]

Would Denny A. ever use moss to guide again ? I was told it would never happen again.

 

[doodah]

I too add my congrats...what a great bull and well deserving of the new world record non-typical American elk.

The thing that kinda amazes me is an analysis of his score. With 140 inches of non-typical points, the spider bull basically had a 6 x 6 typical frame with a gross score of 359 3/8 and with 20 6/8 points of deductions, he ends up with a net typical 6 x 6 frame scoring only 338 5/8 inches...hardly a "typical" monster. However, add 140 inches to that typical frame and you get the new world record!!

Again congrats to Mr. Austad and the Mossback team.

 

[ktc]

schmalts,

You are probably right that rich people should not have an advantage in obtaing public tags. However, they do and the state likes the program. These tags will always be available whether I like them or not, so I guess I am past even worrying about it anymore.

I also enjoy seeing guys who put in an effort do well. I appreciate the compliment to my wife. I know the high dollar guys and best guides are going to do well already. I like seeing guys make the most of their one chance. I can say congrats to Denny Austad, but doubt he would have pulled this off without some very dedicated guides and the ability to go every year. I had no chance at this bull because I am on a waiting period and not even in the game. I just hope like hell that money he paid gets put to good use and it benefits us all? That is all a guy can do in Utah how it is all set-up. If Denny wants to get WARBIRDUM a tag he will need company so Denny can pencil me in as well! I will put it to good use and appreciate the hell out of it!!!