Spike Hunting -There are Better Ways!

[buglinbilly]

For many years I have questioned parts of Utah?s elk management. I was not a firm believer in the very limited opportunity Utah was giving, once the limited entry units got a good foothold. As they became better, I felt there should have been more opportunity, rather than to have kept it so very limited.

I understand that if Utah wants big bulls, then the hunting has to be restricted to a large degree, but never to the extent or for the reasons Utah has maintained its limitations.

In my opinion, after years of employing some very questionable management practices, they seemed to have taken management to an even lower level by implementing this year?s new changes.

I can't understand, with all the great minds that Utah could not have come up with a better management proposal than opening every unit to spike hunting. I know spike hunting has worked on some units in the past. But I predict it will fall far short of the fix all they seem to think it will be.

There is no doubt that on some of Utah?s premium elk units, we have far too many bulls and the ratios are out of whack. If we have to kill more bulls, and I think we do, even though certain groups and individuals don't want it to happen, isn't there a better alternative than the spike hunt?

Could we not give a few more big bull permits? And can someone explain to me why we could not begin to kill the two and three year old bulls instead of spikes?

I feel it would be better to let the spikes live and kill them as young branch antlered bulls, and make people who chose this hunt use their points to get it. The point stack, on limited entry elk has become a joke. After about 15 years of points, we have yet to go through the first tear of point holders on the best of the rifle elk areas. Couldn?t we find a better way to get people using their points than by allowing a hunt that doesn't require one?s use of their points?

And in the general areas I also think we should exclude the shooting of spikes. After just one year of sacrifice we could be taking as many bulls but all would be branched antlered bulls, albeit raghorns. In a state with such limited bull hunting, I think it would at least give many hunters a chance at something besides a spike,

Have a good one. BB

 

[REDDOG]

oh good.

 

[1highpeak]

Well this question opens up a larger can of worms that you think. People in Utah are always screeming they cant draw a tag and want the opportunity, but then the tag numbers get raised and they screem overcrowding. As far as a branch antlered hunt I think that shooting a spike is about like shooting a branch antlered elk, I would rather shoot the spike cause it will probably taste better anyway! Besides with the Trophy only mentality thats pushed in every mag and hunting show out thier, hunters are going to start trying to kill Trophy branch antlered elk or those with the most potetial to becoming our biggest bulls, I dont think that is the solution. DWR should look at changing our Bonus point system to a prefrence point system, with no waiting period after you draw, basicly a front of the line back to the back of the line, atleast you will know when your going to pull a tag! atleast within a year or two. Also more Archery and Muzzy hunters, the success is not as high and you could get more people thru the system without having an adverse affect on the overall herd numbers. I dont think that the state will ever axe the spike hunting in Utah, lets face it, its all about opportunity and most of all REVENUE!

 

[piper]

I can't think of one state that manages elk better than Utah, there are just too many hunters for the amount of huntable game, its the same story everywhere in the west. There is no way to manage wild elk on public land in the same manner as a private hunting reserve, and Spike hunting is a good way to manage for trophy bulls because many of the bulls with the potential to grow huge racks have multiple points when they are a year and a half old, maybe they should have given a spike quota for each area, and maybe they could have charged a point or something for the spike hunt but don't complain too much, the management could be a whole lot worse. at least the game managers listen and are willing to try new strategys, just look at neighboring states, I bet you could get ten year old hunting regs and apply in Wyoming this year using that data and have no problem, I bet you could hunt a week a year for twenty years in Idaho and never get a 350 bull, I bet you couldn't draw a Nevada tag in the next 20 years and if you did you would be very lucky to get a trophy bull, and then of course you could always hunt the crowded hills of Colorado. be thankful

 

[StrictlyArrows]

Wow Piper, you missed to boat on what he recommends. He's not saying opening the floodgates and let every hunter out there decimate the herds. He's saying that most hunters, and I completly agree with him would rather shoot a 4 or 5 point bull, over a spike. Fact is we need to kill more bulls, in very controlled numbers, but not in the extremly limited numbers that are currently in place. Everyone seems to forget that the very few open bull areas we have have been basically shot to hell and back. Sure there's bulls there, but not what I would call opportunity. You say Utah manages better than anyone? Take a look at our open bull regions compared to that of Wyoming, or Idaho, or Colorado, or Montana, they all smash Utah. The only way that we will get more opportunity, more critters, is to start implementing more archery hunts, and less rifle hunts, but that is another can of worms all it's own, but some people can't face that truth or reality. I deal with the crowded hills every year, you can get away from them if you're willing to do what others won't. Fact is, hunting needs a strong population of hunters if it's going to survive, if we get the hills to ourselves, there will be nobody to stand up for our right to hunt. So it's always a double edged sword, yes more elk could be killed, in a very different way than spike hunting, and the affects would be better. What good is it to have a huge number of bulls in a unit, that are not being hunted? Most of which will not die at the hands of a hunter, or any other predator, why not let them be hunted? Use archery as the main method since the success is lower, archery hunters can deal with not getting a critter.

 

[slamdunk]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-09 AT 02:38PM (MST)[p]Offering up "a few more big bull tags" does not do enough to reduce the number of bulls, for obvious reasons.

In order to remove a higher number of bulls from the units, you have to do something more "significant" that will make an impact.
The DWR would be crucified by trophy hunters if they allowed for hundreds of mature bulls tags to be added, so to make the appropriate bull reductions, killing spikes is their "compromising solution".

The future bull numbers will slowly start declining to where they need them for a healthy balance without compromising the younger bulls that are the future big bull stock.
Also, they already know that at least 10% of spikes survive the hunts, and this leaves a good young number to let mature for more future stock.

The only option was to either kill a LOT more mature bulls, or start culling from the bottom.
I beleive the spike hunting is the lessor of the two evils.

 

[NickJ1980]

I agree with BB. Wildlife management is like managing a budget. If you have extra money you can spend more, if you have less you spend less. It changes from time to time. I think a lot of hunters think of it like setting a thermostat--put it there and leave it...

1highpeak's preference point/no waiting period idea isn't bad either, but it wouldn't do anything for the top few units since there are more "max" and "max -1" point holders than there are tags every year. A lot of guys like having the "chance" every year, but in the long run, it just increased the wait for most of you.

My opinion is that Utah should take the top 4 or 5 elk units and keep doing what they're doing--highly limited tags/general spike only. The guys who want nothing less than a 400" bull have their shot. The rest of the units should be less limited, any antlered bull, and move the rifle hunt to be the same time as the general spike hunt is now. Archery should coincide with archery deer, and muzzleloader with muzz. deer.

By doing this you will thin out the "point pool" crowd that only wants to hunt branch antlered bulls, you still give them opportunity for a nice bull, and they can reasonably do it more than once.

Pipedream...

 

[buglinbilly]

I think so few folks really understand their odds of ever getting to hunt a big bull in the state of Utah. We are 15 years down the line and we still haven't gone through the first tier of point holders on the rifle hunts in the premium units. If you have one less than max points it could still be 15 more years before you draw a guaranteed tag. If you are two down, you may be lucky to get it in 30 more years. If you only have 10 points, you probably won't live long enough to see a guaranteed tag.

The present system is not working and never will work for the vast majority of Utah?s hunters. If you have the money to buy a tag at auction or at a banquet, then you can hunt Utah?s big bulls many times. If you are relying on drawing a tag, with points, in the best areas, you better have max or not less than 2 under or you will probably never see a tag unless you luck out and win a random tag. And drawing one of those is not likely in a lifetime of applications

So why not make it where more people can at least hunt a branch antler bull?? If you have to kill bulls, and I think most agree that is a must for a healthy herd, then why not let the spike live and let Utah?s hunters hunt bulls with 4 or 5 points? The same percentage of those bulls will slip through the cracks as would the spikes, if not more, for big bull recruitment. And younger hunters who will never be able to draw a tag could use their points, as could others who just want to hunt a branch antlered bull in a good unit.

There are some in this state who only want to kill a 400 plus bull or a 380 or perhaps some a 340. But there are far more that would be happy with an early 300 plus bull. Why hold those entire guys hostage to never getting a tag to those with the max points and their horn lust?

And why not exclude spikes on the general units? At least that way a person could have a decent chance of taking a few branched antler bulls in the state of Utah without having to be wealthy.

Elk are probably one of the easiest big game animals to mange but Utah has been far too conservative in their tag allotments and the good ole elk days that are here right now, will pass with so few being able to hunt them.

The wolves are knocking at our front door and we continue to deny most Utah hunters a chance at our elk. Are we just holding off so we will have feed for the wolves? I think we need better and more diverse management. Let's hunt our elk, not just have an elk shoot. Let's get the rifle hunt out of the rut! A good rifle hunter doesn't need the rut, he has the skills and the dedication to kill his bull by hard work. Just because one draws a good bull tag, should not mean most everyone will kill an animal. Let's put the days of road hunting a big bull elk in the past. It should be a license to hunt, them, not just to shoot them.

There are far better ways and far fairer ways to manage these critters and it time we realize it and do something about it.

Have a good one. BB

 

[piper]

you have a point about the rifle rut hunts, and so few tags because its so easy, but I was just looking at the draw odds and there is a lot of opportunity to hunt without max points, archery, black powder, places like diamond mnts or la sal,late hunts, even early rifle in the less known areas, and some of the odds arent that bad, I guess everyone wanting the same areas is the problem

 

[sneekiest_sneeker]

The reason its a spike hunt is because they have them already implemented in the state and people are familiar with them. A spike is alot easier to identify in the heat of the moment than trying to count points and make sure he doesnt have six on one side. Then you get people that will dump a bull and walk away when he sees that its illegal. You get that on spike hunts too with 2 point bulls and such but it happens less.

There might be better ways of doing it but trying to get a simple solution the general public understands is another thing.

The animals run in cycles and we need to get the bull to cow ratio back in order so we dont see it sooo bad. We need to get healthier numbered herds and the rest will follow.