AZ state to reinstate cap on non-resident permits.

B

billgoat

Guest
Thursdays paper says AZ plans to take advantage of a federal law and reinstate a 10%cap.
 
That is correct, and it will be for hunt code now, which means all deer, elk, antelope, sheep, etc. hunts will have a 10% cap as opposed to the hunts north of the big gorge. Finally we are making progress. Cant wait.
 
Also the 10% cap will affect hunt numbers per unit so one unit won't be flooded with non-residents they will be evenly divided which is excellent.
 
Progress... well, I suppose. And I don't want to overreact to something that's just being speculated upon, but a reinstatement of a 10% cap will not be progress, it will prove over time to be a big step backwards.

It seems as though you and your friends view the non-resident hunter as your competitor and your enemy, to be limited wherever possible and to the extent possible. You should hope that you'll never need the assistance of the non-resident hunting community to defend your right to hunt in Arizona, because many of you have done your best to shove everyone else away. But I doubt you care... its all about drawing that next tag, and the future be damned.

I've grown up hunting all over the West, but I feel no community with you. This process of walling-off each of the states into its own fiefdom, and fragmenting the hunting community, will prove to be a setback for hunting in the West.

I'll look forward to hearing what SCI has to say about the assurances it received from Arizona, and leaders in the Arizona hunting community, that they would not push for a reinstatement of punitive (<10%) quotas against non-resident hunters.

Hopefully, more reasonable heads will prevail.

HornedToad
 
You're right, I don't care if you get drawn here. I do however care that my kids have more chance to get drawn, and my next door nieghboor and all the Arizona residents who live, pay taxes, shop, go out to dinner and volunteer in this great state. Have you ever done anything to help hunting in Arizona besides putting in for a tag??? Have you ever volunteered here. I've never volunteered where you live and I don't expext to have the same rights as you in your state! I bet if they put a 10% cap on all non-residents but you personally, YOU wouldn't say a word!!! Oh, and yes the public land does belong to you too but the ANIMALS belong to the residents of Arizona... Its in the law books now if you had not heard.

Donnie
 
AZWALKER

I am a NR HUNTER, and I supported the fight against George, but with the attitude your showing I don't know if I would support it again.

I bet you were one of the guys asking us NR HUINTERS to boycot products used by George, and now your thank you to us is; piss off and take your 10%.

I hope the rest of the HUNTERS in AZ don't feel the same way about us NR HUNTERS that supported your state in this fight.

Eddie
 
Let me put something in perspective for you NR Hunters. I am a lifelong resident of Arizona. This year I drew my FIRST archery bull tag with 10 bonus points. I have NOT hunted elk in 10 years and have never hunted bull elk. I am 29 fricken years old!! I do not make very much money and can't afford to go out of state. So Arizona is my only option. My 2 year old son might get a tag before I get another one.
So just think if you only got to hunt elk every 10 years. There have been several years where I have been skunked on every tag I have put in for. So imagine the fall comes around and you do not get to do the thing you love most, hunt. How am I suppost to get my son to enjoy big game hunting if he never gets to go?
Here is the reason most resident are upset with non-residents having equal chance to draw, WE DO NOT GET TO HUNT. Think about it. What if it was like that in your state? Would suck huh?
You can really thank George, now AZG&F is proposing 10% NR Cap on every animal in every unit. Not just the premium hunts.
I am NOT Anti-NR hunters, just against NR hunters having equal chance to draw a tag.
So don't give me that we would not help you out again BS. I guarantee that if your state had something similar happen, AZ resident would be helping you out.
Not looking for an argument, just giving my perspective.

ThumpinRM
 
I'm not against non-resdients in any way. I'm against attitudes like HornedToad's. Trust me, I do appriciate the NR's who supported us here in AZ but what your attitude is different than his. I would like to see AZGFD offer more incentives to NR's. I don't agree with you guys having to buy tags up front. I hope they keep the loyalty point system in place. I'd like to see the conservation point put in place for NR's that want to come here and help us keep our lands beautiful. I would deffinatly be against any outfitter set asides that come out of an NR tag pool. I wouldn't mind a 15 or 20 percent set aside for NR's. What I don't like is the attitude that I, an 8th generation Arizona resident, don't desever special treatment in my own state and that you an NR have the same rights as me. You can't disagree with that can you? Yes I reacted rashly to HornedToad but its been frustrating for me since this started. So.... If I offended you I am sorry, just understand that its been a tough years for us down here in the desert.

Good luck this season.
Donnie
 
Actually tell your last post Azwalker, Which I think was very good, I thought you were the bad attitude. But your last post was very good and sums up what I as a NR think is fair. I think 20% should be a definate max. I like the idea of more loyalty points for the more you do, its only fair. I don't agree with 10 and lower. But equal % is not fair at all to the RES that put most of the work into the area in question. Very good last post.
 
Arizona residents are not against non-residents. Non-residents deserve a chance to draw a tag in Arizona and the opportunity is provided. All residents in all Western States should have a greater opportunity to hunt in there own State and that's what is being put back in place. Personally I like the purchase of a hunting license for res and non-res whether you draw a tag or not. Yes it has been tough years down here in the desert and we're fighting for what every State should have.
 
In my opinion, states like Arizona, Nevada, Utah and Oregon, and Idaho where draw tags are scarce should set the quota at 15%. 10% is a little low and Oregon's 5%(and you have to buy the licence) is very unfair. States with more opportunities like Colorado and Wyoming should go to 25-30%, which they are. I was a supporter of the Reid bill, but I do not like how states are abusing it now (outfitter set asides, $100 bonus points, huge increases in tag prices). The Reid bill is being used by states to price average sportsman out of hunting. I'm from Nevada and I think that NDOW made a great descision in bumping up the NR quota a little, even though they were basically forced to.
 
AZ, you are not the only state with a cap, here is the rule in ND:
"Nonresidents - State law allocates nonresidents one percent (1%) of deer gun and muzzleloader season licenses available in any unit (thru second lottery for deer gun). One half of the nonresident allocation of antlered white-tailed deer licenses per unit are available to licensed guides or outfitters. See section 16 for bow season licenses that are available to nonresidents. Nonresidents may apply for a deer gun license after the second lottery at a license fee of $50. Nonresident full-time students living in North Dakota, who are attending a state or tribal college, or a private institution of higher education, may qualify for purchasing resident (non lottery) licenses. Please contact the Department for details."

I think having a cap is a good thing, maybe it's because we have one, so I just expect to not have the same chance as residents, I think that's the way it should be.

We also have a cap on NR any deer bow tags, and Non-residents can't even apply for Pronghorn gun, or the (whitetail only) Muzzleloader season.

Keep the Sun at Your Back and the Wind in Your Face
 
AZWALKER, and everyone else with the anti-out-of stater-attitude.

I used to have the same near-hatred for nonresidents until I became one when I left the state to go to school. Please reconsider your thoughts about:

1) Residents own the game, pay all the taxes ext, ect, ect. Most game management agencies receive a majority of their operating budgets from nonresidents by way of a) outrageous nonresident tag fees, b) Pittmanr-Roberts Federal funds that are collected nation-wide from taxes on hunting and fishing equipment. Additionally, nonresident hunters bring in outside economic moneys by way of food, equpment purchases, lodging, gas tax, ect. Nonresidents pay far more than their fair share to run the game department! And also, the federal land that the game live belongs to all Americans! Thanks for any effort you provide to protect and enhance it, hopefully if you ever come visit Utah, or Colorado, or Idaho, or New Mexico, you will enjoy the public land there.
2) You cannot afford to hunt out of state? I don't doubt that because all states gouge the He!! out of nonresidents. You ever heard of ?what goes around, comes around?? I have friends that come from out of state to hunt elk with me. I hate that they have to pay such huge amounts for a tag, but you know what ? there are NO elk in Georgia! If hunting opportunities are so few in Arizona, go to a neighboring state. But wait, we want all the opportunities for ourselves, so we will extremely limit your opportunity to buy a tag, but if you get one, we will charge so much that you cannot afford to take the hunt.
3) We live in the United States of America, not the Stay the heck out of our state , Hunt your own back yard you foreign SOB Federation. If it is A OK to discriminate against someone from another State, maybe we should restrict hunting to the county you live in. Then all those dang city slickers will not come up here to my rural county to hunt MY elk!
 
Thats the scary thing about the Reid bill. If the states abuse it we'll lose control of things and that hurts residents too. Its a trade off though, either you make all things equal in every state and prices skyrocket for everyone or you give all control to the states and hopefully they don't get crazy with it and price all the NR's out. I have to admit, its easy for me as a resident of AZ to be happy about the cap but what about the guys that don't have sheep, muleys or elk in their state? I personally think AZGFD likes the NR money to much do anything too crazy but you never know. The problem with some modern game management is that they aren't truly managing the game, they're managing hunters. 1000 tags in 12AW on the Kiabab is a perfect example, explain to me how that isn't managing hunters and not the game. The A.D.A did an independent study up there and found that AZGFD is about 60% too high on the tags they alloted. Thats managing hunters to the detrament of the game. Thats what we need to be fighting. The NR/Res issues will come and go but if we don't get involved in game managment instead of hunter management there won't be an elk or deer out there worth hanging on a wall and our children will have to be millionairs to shoot a doe. Just my opinion.
 
"AZWALKER, and everyone else with the anti-out-of stater-attitude."

Bro, get your facts straight. Did you just read my one post and decide to join and argue or are you taking the time to actually read my posts. I am not anti-NR! I'll be a NR when I go to hunt Antelope in Wyo this Sep. I'll be a guest there, one of the lucky few who drew a tag as a NR and if I didn't draw oh well its a lottery. I just don't like it when people jump up and say

"Oh its public land so I have all the right I want to hunt in Arizona or Nevada or Wyoming and I could care less if Arizona residents have to wait 10 years for an Elk tag in their own state."

Go book a hunt with big Goerge and support him if you want it that way. But guess what, the Reid bill passed, now its law and I didn't hear too many people on here that were against it. Now the states start doing what they've been given the right by federal law to do and people are all up in arms. Pick a side and stay there! I'll tell you what, since its not fair, next time you draw a tag in your state go ahead and mail it to me. Show me how fair you can be to NR's.
 
AZWALKER... it sounds as though we have more in common than you suspect. The vast majority of us non-res hunters agree with the principle of a resident preference. Almost none of us have ever advocated an equal draw.

In your post, you state a willingness to live with a 15% non-res quota as being fair and reasonable. During the litigation/legislation, many of us were told to not support George, and to support the boycott (which we did) and that once the dust had settled, we could expect fair and reasonable treatment. Well, I'm sorry, but to see an immediate return to Arizona's pre-litigation, punitive "up to but not exceeding 10% non-res quota", which has the practical effect of being a 6% to 8% quota, is not fair and reasonable.

My concern is that I had been expecting the leaders within the Arizona hunting community to encourage AZG&FD to reach a reasonable middle ground with non-resident hunters, as Nevada has done. Instead, it seems as though the early postings on this thread were high-fiving one another over the prospect of the old punitive standards being put back in place.

If you really believe that 15% is a reasonable quota for non-residents, will you contact AZG&FD to register that position? Your non-res hunter friends would greatly appreciate it.

HornedToad

Been hunting in Arizona for 16 years, but for coyotes only... can't draw a tag.
 
Wow, what a spicy topic. I would like to weigh in. I moved to Idaho from Calif. in part because of the opportunity to be able to hunt trophy deer and elk. Like most of you I am a working man and do not have the resources to be able to hunt out of state. I would if I could. We have a 10% cap on n/r tags here in Idaho and I don't feel that is unreasonable. If you want to be able to hunt in Idaho every year do what I did and move here. If I draw a controlled hunt tag for deer or elk this year then next year I don't get to draw a controlled hunt tag for that species. That is the rules set up by the idfg. I would hate for the rules to be subject to change based on how much money is up for grabs. Just because you have the money to spend shouldn't limit my opportunity to be able to draw a controlled hunt tag in the state that I am a resident of. I just don't want hunting in Idaho to go to the highest bidder.
 
If there is little or no opportunity to hunt in your own state there is a slim to none chance that your own children will be able to hunt and enjoy all the traditions that hunting brings as well. As many people have stated and it seems to be the general consensus, is that the ranks of hunters in the US is diminishing not increasing. The single biggest factor IMO is lack of opportunity not lack of desire. I know lots of people that were hardcore hunters that have given it up or their interest has severely waned strictly from the fact that they can never get drawn. The population of the US is increasing yet the number of hunters continues to go down. If people can't hunt in their own state and rarely if ever get a chance to participate, many will fall victim to the poor draw odds and their interest in the sport and the wildlife will disappear and they will find other ways to occupy their time.I've seen it happen many times. In AZ the Dept. and the resident sportsmen and women have for years worked towards having a balance of hunter opportunity and quality hunting. We have very limited resources here as compared to many other states but much of what we have is quality with high demand and less opportunity. With close to 60% of our deer tags North of the River going to Non-Res. this year, I commend the AZ Game & Fish for standing up to protect AZ Residents in re-instituting the 10% cap, which worked for years, enter USO. I have to agree with others in that if and when I apply out of state I will gladly live by whatever rules and regulations that apply in those states and expect others that apply here as non-res. to do the same and not ##### about it, or move here.
 
Couldn't have said it any better myself Wetmule. Residents deserve a MUCH better chance to draw it just makes sense for any State. Residents drawing tags will keep the interest in hunting and will overall benefit the sport. If you don't like where you live then move.
 
Well well well I guess I hit a soft spot with this topic. I cant tell if its the money that is the problem. Or if all out of state hunters dont want to wait five or six years for a tag. We do some times longer.You guys complain about having to buy a hunting license in order to hunt in AZ. I buy one every year and if im not drawn for any thing I get my bow out. and I buy an over the counter deer tag.Hay look no caps on that im sure most AZ residents would welcome out of state bow hunters. hey maybe we should call game and fish and ask for a 15% cap on every thing south of I-10 OCTOBER OR NOVEBER. Or is it all about every thing north of the ditch. Have you heard some of the questions on some of these sites. Hey I drew a unit ten bull elk tag never ben there dont have the gas money to scout and i live out of state. any free advice would be nice and buy the way is ten bull a good unit.well I WILL SOME IT UP FOR ALL OF YOU. I dont buy tags out of state and thats just me. And if i did you would not hear me wine about the price of this the persentage of that. Wen I pute one foot forwered I know wat im steping in and if I step in chit its my problem and you wont hear me wine because I pute my foot there. so the next time your neighbor tells you that you can only have ten apples off his tree just remember he grew those apples. I WELCOME EVERYBODY TO AZ AND DONT WANT ANY HARD FEELINGS. JUST REMEMBER IF YOU DONT LIKE THE WAY SOMEONE TALKS TO YOU DONT TALK TO THAT PERSON AND IF YOU DONT LIKE THE RULES IN AZ YOU DONT HAVE TO APPLY HERE.
 
The concerned sportsmen in Arizona were well represented at the AZG&F Commission meeting in Flagstaff last week where the Commision approved the reinstitution of the 10% cap on NR for most permited hunts in the state.

The debate may rage over "what is a fair percentage of tags to issue to nonresidents" but the reality is no matter what number you like or support, someone else isn't going to like it. If 10% isn't "fair" is 11%, 12%, 15%, 20%, 50%? Each number higher than the previous is going to find support from nonresidents only because it's more than what they could get before.

The ongoing description of AZ's 10% cap as "punitive" demonstrates a close allegiance to the principles of the Montoya vs. Manning action and the reality that what was wanted all along was more tags for nonresident applicants with no regard to the individual AZ resident hunter's plight when it comes to obtaining an antlered big game tag for their home turf.

Virtually every western state that offers big game hunting opportunity restricts nonresident applicants in their pursuit of a tag; however, AZ is likely the only one that prevents any of it's resident hunters from hunting antlered or horned big game with a rifle or muzzleloader unless they win a tag in the lottery draw. My nonresident friends, when you consider how limited our permit numbers are you'd have to agree that is extremely restrictive for the resident hunter.

A suggestion to nonresidents that long to hunt the Kaibab or the Paria or the Strip for big mulies...come on out and bring your bow and buy an over the counter tag and enjoy the hunting. Just leave your rifle at home. If you want a bull elk tag, apply for some of the less heralded units and you'll find you'll draw a tag a lot sooner than if you're on a mission to only hunt in unit 9 or 10.

I like the 10% cap. I think it's fair. You're welcome to disagree, just don't be disagreeable.

Good luck with any '05 tags you might have drawn.
 
Billgoat,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the infamous 9th circuit that tried to ram rod that bit of judicial legislation down the throats of Arizona resident hunters? About half of that courts decisions get overturned, even by a fairly liberal supreme court.
 
Bottom line people like $$$$ uso$$$$ got that started. and thats another storry if you think they did that for you think again. they did it for the money. knot becaus they love to hunt.some times things come full circle and here they come.
 
AZBUCKSNORT... I appreciate your well written post. But following your theory of 'whose to say what's fair, its all in the eye of the beholder', why not set the AZ resident allocation at 100%? Why screw around with providing non-residents 6 to 8%? If conditions in Arizona are so desperate, why not set the non-resident allocation at 0%?

The fact is that many of us were encouraged by many parties in Arizona, including particularly Tuscon based Safari Club International (SCI) to not support the USO litigation, to support the USO boycott, and to support Reid's legislation, under assurances that we could trust the Arizona hunting community to advocate a more reasonable allocation between resident and non-resident, such as has occured in Nevada. Others claimed that to place such a trust in Arizona was naive, and it now appears as though they were correct.

While we're at it, I'd like to ask you about a contradiction. We're often told that Arizona residents deserve an overwhelming preference in the allocation of permits because, among other things, they do all the volunteer work. But when the Conservation Bonus Point issue was being bandied about, we were told that Arizona had to offer such a bonus point, because without it, very few Arizona hunters could be counted on to show up for projects. How would you square that contradiction?

HornedToad
 
HT

Remembering back on those black days of the USO fiasco, it was apparent to anyone/everyone that USO's motivation was more tags for THEIR clients. It wasn't for the "betterment of NR hunters" and if you believed that you were vary naive. The rallying cry from Arizonan's and others were because it was purely money motivated and not in the best interest of the sport.

What I've seen and read about the conservation point was that there were too many ways to abuse the system and no checks and balances built in. It wasn't because people wouldn't volunteer without it. I've been on a few projects and believe it or not, I have yet to see a NR hunter there. Yes, I know its big logistical problem to come to a project unless you live just over the state line, but the Conservation point was designed to be a small 'thank you' for all that is done to help the wildlife, the landowner/sportsman relations, and the habitat.

Ghost Hunter
 
Ghost

I don't care about USO or the motivations for their lawsuit. None of that matters. What matters is the principle of finding a fair means of allocating a precious resource. I'll just repeat, that for those of us who relied upon senior members of the Arizona hunting community encouraging non-residents to stay out of the USO litigation and to support the Reid legislation, in return for an attempt to achieve a more equitable balance of permit allocations, the immediate return by AZGFD to the sub-10% standard of old, with nary a word raised in support of non-resident hunter interests, is a betrayal.

I'm done with this subject, and this site. As I said in my first post, I'm also done supporting the Arizona hunting community. When the environmentalists flooding in from California decide that hunting has no place in an increasingly urbanized Arizona, or when the Native Americans decide that they need unrestricted aboriginal hunting rights, as their brethren have achieved in Canada, or any other attack on your hunting rights in Arizona, as far as I'm concerned, you'll be on your own. And you may not care, because by then you may have drawn your tag. But who'll stand up for your young hunters then. Congratulations on your victory.

Horned Toad
 
I support state rights. So take all the tags. I have tried to right a response to this but it just makes me to dam mad.

The whole issue is about the money. The money is going to be the death to our sport. We can sit around and argue about who gets the tags but it wont matter because the decisions are made around money. Otherwise you would take all the tags. You should take all the tags but you can't afford it.

There was no winning on this issue. Once it started it was a loosing proposition either way. IF USO won more tags to the high end clients less for the average guy. AZ wins and we have less oppertunity for Non residents and AZ. raised the fee caps. Everyone lost on this one.

Well I will give it one positive thing some people realised that states do have rights. They had them all the time just some had forgotten.

Well keep putting in and saving money because were ever you hunt the tag prices are going up. Residents and Nonresidents alike.

We all have to face the facts. People are increasing and hunting oppurtunities are decreasing. There is only so much land. States should provide for there residents first. Budgets are tighter for every state every year and money is a key factor in almost every decision made. So figure out how much money you need to generate and charge residents or non residents what ever you think is fair or not.

I might not like it but its not my dicision to make. The only decision I get is do I play or not. I personally don't care what the tag quotas are but I think the prices are not fair. Thats my opinion but it has no bearring on the outcome. Its just my opinion. Again play or not play is the real decision nonresidents make.
 
HornedToad don't let this subject hit you too hard, we're all hunters and need to stick together. We obviously disagree on residents rights and what's fair but that's just part of the game. I wouldn't mind hearing what other States caps are and prices for big game animals.
 
i just want to get my two cents in on this one.
i am a nevada resident who prior to 1986 lived and hunted in Arizona. never drew a bull elk tag, but at least managed to get a deer tag every year most times. since living here in Nevada my draw rate for deer tags is at about 45% and i managed to get and fill an antelope tag 5 years ago.
when all of this lawsuit business started i was at first outraged that anyone from another state, especially an outfitter would even have the huevos to sue for discrimination and even more outraged that the case would be heard and decided by a group of overly liberal judges in california (home of the sierra club etc.). my first thought was that no way would john McCain sit for this and he would use his considerable clout in washington to short circuit this ludicrous case. alas, it did not come to pass. it took our democratic minority leader from nevada to jump on the bandwagon and steamroll a bill all the way to the president in order to head them off at the pass.
however too late for both our states residents to cicumvent the new quotas for 2005-2006. i guess this would have been the year for me to have applied as a non-resident over there while you guys should have applied here. we both would have probably enjoyed more success.
if you think about it though, who now stands to gain the most from this fiasco. the quotas will probably not go back to their prior number. some compromise will probably be at least 5% higher, still a plus for the outfitters, and now the individual fish and game departments will easily justify extreme increase in fees for non-resident tags and licenses. of course that will in turn (already happened) open the door for increases in resident fees. all the game and fish departments will increase their revenues, outfitters will charge more, and again, as only the wealthy will be able to afford these increased costs, the working man and the next generation are going to be just SOOL in ever getting an out of state hunt. with reduced numbers of individuals applying due to the elevated costs, let's not forget gas-(another story), the odds for those individuals will increase dramatically. CHING CHING.
so, even though the case was overturned by legislation, the original plaintiffs win anyway. the rest of us foot the bill as taxpayers and get to swallow it whether we like it or not.
maybe i'm off base here, but i think not. what do the rest of you think?
i would like to take this opportunity to wish all the best to Harry Reid the Honorable Senator from the great state of Nevada and a speedy recovery from his mild T.I.A. the other day. god bless you and yours. WE NEED YOU!
 
Jeffnvegas,
I an a res. of Az my entire life. I think that I should have a little my oppertuniyt to hunt my home state then a N/R. I also hunt all over the southwest. Its the game, either you play or you don't. Your from Nevada, I play that game also. Everyyear I apply, spend about $250.00, get a big bonus point and a whole bunch of not successfuf reciepts. Your state also throws the bone on the N/R caps. Whats fair is fair, but I still play the game. We just don't always have too like it.

DCMhunter,
Same thing bud!!!

As for Hornedtoad,
Everyone knows that toads cause warts when they piss on .ya!!,but what about a hornedtoad? Thats even worse. What you are displaying is poison. Go hide under a rock where hornedtoads belong. Az. dosn't need these kinds of poisonous crap.

I'm not againist N/R or whats fair, All states should be = across the board. What I am againist is people like yourself.
 
The conservation bonus point proposal will have to be studied further and include an implementation mechanism to make certain it will accomodate any and all particpants, resident and nonresident alike, that wish to make themselves available to the program. Lots of questions came up about the CBP as to implementation, staffing, etc. that will have to be figured out before it can be enacted. MPO is that it's not dead as a concept, just not developed enough to adopt.

Arizona can use all the help it can get on habitat/conservation related projects. The proverbial "10% of the people do 90% of the work" may well be fact here, and in most other states as well. Offering an incentive for something of value in return is what makes the world go around my friends. I've spent countless hours involved in volunteer work (certainly not intending to imply all in wildlife/conservation work!)and haven't received anything other than personal satisfaction and pride in accomplishment and the benefits of knowing what I did could only help or enhance the program I chose to involve myself with. Unfortunately, volunteer groups are usually understaffed and overworked. This is true in most cases from youth athletics to booster clubs to church groups to conservation groups. All can use more help and those who have "heard the call" usually provide a disproportionate amoount of the time, energy, and money in furthering the groups' causes.

Enter something like the CBP program. If you can get a newbie out to a project and provide a hands on opportunity to contribute something worthwhile, well then you just might ignite a spark in that individual that will build into a flame that lasts a lifetime. If giving that person a bonus point in the draw is the price to be paid, I'd say it's a bargain for all involved.

Honestly, you would have to admit in your heart of hearts that you personally felt that AZ was shafting you with a 10% nonresident cap and you wanted more "fairness" which would provide for you an increased opportunity to receive a permit in the mail to hunt our state's very limited trophy resources. I'm not going to dance on this issue because you don't want to hunt "an elk" in AZ, you want to hunt a big, mature, dark antlered behemoth of a wapiti, like the ones all those other guys are getting a crack at while you are being denied because of our "punitive cap".

The majority of AZ resident hunters are placing their dream hunt choice in the first position on their apps and then following it up with a more reasonable hunt selection in position 2 with positions 3-5 either left unfilled by those who only want to hunt a bull or with antlerless selections for those who just want to "hunt an elk". Most nonresidents are not following this application methodology. They apply for their two dream bull elk hunts for the first phase of the draw and then keep writing in bull hunts for the second phase 3-5 picks, even though there is no statistical chance to draw a bull elk tag in those positions. If the NR would spread their hopes around, as a group, they would draw more permits.

As for your feelings of betrayal...well, the fact is that it was nonresidents that responded to the appeals of George Taulman in his highly inflamatory letter that he mailed to nonresident Arizona applicants that gave birth to the lawsuit that sought to assault AZ resident hunting opportunity. If was the money contributed by nonresidents who bought into the rhetoric of Mr. Taulman that we were ripping you off and that you were being treated unfairly that launched the attack on Arizona resident hunters. At no time that I'm aware of did AZ admit we were being "unfair" in our application of the draw nor do I recall AZ resident hunters calling for the state to issue more tags to NR applicants, nor do I recall AZ residents asking for help from NR in exchange for support of issuing more NR hunt permits.

The bottomline is that NR want more permits in AZ. If they had to sue to get them they were fine with it and proved it by opening up their checkbooks to fund Mr. Taulman's cause.
Understand that all the other western states that have hunts for antlered/honored big game animals restrict my opportunity to hunt in their state. Utah has a 10% setaside, as opposed to a cap, but at the expense of preventing me from applying for multiple species thereby virtually precluding me from ever amassing enough bonus points to draw an elk tag if I'm trying to draw a limited entry deer or antelope permit. Once I do draw that deer or elk tag in Utah, which can and does take many years, there is virtually no chance to draw an elk tag do to lack of bonus points and minuscule NR tag numbers. However, that is the way the game is played in Utah and if you wnat to hunt there that's the rules and you live with them and plug away building your bonus points. By the way, have you taken a look at what a premium limited entry deer tag casts in Utah? Trust me, AZ permits are a "blue-light special" by comparison.

I've applied in Nevada since 1991 and have drawn 3 deer permits in those 14 years and 2 of those permits were in very marginal deer units. I applied there in positions deep on my application just to have a ticket to the October show. Are Nevada's tag allotments to NR applicants "fair"? If you discount permits issued to NR through the guided hunter portion of the draw, I doubt they are any better than a NR opportunity in Arizona.

New Mexico caps their elk tags to NR at 10% for the DIY hunter. They also charge a much higher tag fee than AZ does, if that is "fair", and if it is, why is 10% ok in NM but a similar number in AZ makes us "greedy"? Examples like this can be found from state to state all over the hunting country.

The beauty of Arizona's system is that it isn't a respector of persons in the draw. Rich or poor, internationally know hunter to one of the kids I just graduated out of my Hunter ED class, they all have the same chance to get a low random number in the lottery. If you get lucky and pull a magic number you're going to hunt as a nonresident so long as the unit you chose to apply for hasn't already given out 10% of it's available tags to fellow lucky low number nonresidents. Remember the advice to spread your hunt units around a bit. AZ has wonderful bull elk hunting in virtually every unit. Oh sure, maybe not 375 B&C bulls behind every tree, but good bull elk hunting nontheless.

I'm sorry to hear you are done with this site. With the low number of posts you've made it looks like you've chosen to keep your opinions and comments to yourself in your time here. If you're new and wanted to express your disapproval of AZ resident hunters, you now have and you can move on. If you'd like to stick around and continue to practice the lost art of genial debate, speaking for myself, I invite you to pull up a chair and lets agree to disagree without being disagreeable.

Whatever you decide, I wish you well.
 
Jeffnvegas, yes I did. I thought that it was a good post, I only wanted others to know that this game is one that you have to play if you want to hunt at all, even though its not a fun game. Kudos to Nevada and Senetor Reid for a job well done. This whole matter should have been solved right here in Az.

The hornedtoad was the one that rubbed me the the wrong way!!
 
AZBuckSnort... Thanks. I'll have a beer, calm down, and wander back into the camp. I know we need to stick together.
 
Wetmule summed up some significant issues. To backtrack for a moment, I have lived in Washington state, my birth state and most everything was over the counter which stimulated alot of hunting desire. I moved to Texas and it is over the counter, just harder to get good public land so you pony up for private land. Then moved to California where its over the counter but private land for greater quality. Then moved to Arizona 8 years ago and have drawn two early season coues tags since living here and playing by the rules of a lottery system. I have two sons and it is hard to explain to them why we cant hunt deer, only quail and doves the past two years. All of us have our own personal axes to grind and without any opportunity, the kids.........SPORTSPEOPLE OF THE FUTURE will choose something else if we as sportspeople dont find a solution. If anyone can help me figure out what to do with my two sons, Travis and Max here in AZ, please tell me because I dont have answers for them to hunt in their own state............... Thanks, Allen Taylor......
 
I also live in AZ... my son has been putting in for archery elk since he was 10... not even a great unit.. he just drew his first tag this year. he's 20 and in college. he has to fly home to hunt for 4 days... I really don't want to hear non res. gripe too much...
 
Don't have the answer for you Bura, wish I did, I don't think there is one for AZ. The sad reality is the drawing odds for residents before the cap was lifted sucked, they Really sucked this year with no cap, and they will suck again next year with the cap re-instated, and would suck even if no tags went to non-res. The grim reality is if you want to hunt the strip and bucks on the Kaibab, the odds tell us that we won't live that long and we will never get to go. If you want to hunt bull elk here, just off the top of my head, I would say you will have to wait 10 years or more with a few exceptions, and getting substantially worse every year. With I don't know, a Zillion people living here and more people flooding here every day the situation for residents here is bleak. Archery right now is about the only way a guy can count on going deer hunting every year. For the majority of us on many of these hunts, the only way we get to go is if we know someone that drew. The only positive is we have a fairly good elk population and can cycle through guys with max points about every 15 years, but that number will surely go up as well. Wow that was positive, I think I'm moving to CO or WYO.
 
Bura:

Keep putting in for the hard draw tags, but get them into archery too....some good hunts EVERY year with a stick and string. Just a small solution.

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
Allen,

If you want to take the lil' fellers hunting for big game each fall you're looking at OTC tags in NM, WA, coastal CA, ID, or spike elk in UT or undersubscribed muley tags in northern UT. As for AZ tags, you'll have the best odds of drawing them a tag in any unit other than the NOTCR or the late coues deer hunts. Antlerless elk hunts throughout the state have fairly good draw rates that can allow a hunting dad to plan a hunt for the hunting kids. Drawing for anything with an antler or horn is another story, as you well know.

I have a good friend who lives in Republic, WA. up near the Canada border in Ferry County. Tags are available over the counter for some pretty good buck whitetail and mule deer hunting and they are really cheap for youth hunters. Perhaps taking the boys back up to Washington is an option for the years they do not draw here at home? I realize this doesn't address the issue of hunting at home but it's the reality for AZ resident hunters, young and old.

Those of us with kids can sympathize with your situation. My kids, 18 & 17, have applied since they were 10 & 14 and have drawn three tags for antlered/horned game during that timespan. I suggest keeping your boys "in the game" by joining friends who've drawn on their hunts, hunting small game & varmints, taking advantage of the bumper quail season, and waiting for the javelina season in '06 to come around.

Good luck!
 
I am a NR hunter. I surf many different hunting web sites and by far the most negative reponses about NR hunter numbers seem to come from the Arizona residents. I am fully aware that I will get blasted for this reply so flame away. But let me put things into a different perspective for you. Many of you spout off about not being able to hunt for 10 years, what you actually are saying though is your unable to hunt antlered game. Also their are some that say if the NR hunters don't like the rules just stay away. But who would support your game and fish department? Are you really saying that you would be willing to pay $4500.00 to hunt Az bull elk because the NR hunters have stopped applying?
If you want more opportunity perhaps you should ask G&F increase the number of tags for bulls that are given out. Of course the quality of bulls would decrease as the age structure of the herd changed. Would that make you happy? And for those of you that complain that you can't afford to hunt out of state because it cost too much. Welcome to the club. You complain because you live in states that have low wages, but maytbe it's the career field you have chosen is the reason behind the low wages. Did you ever think that if you went to school and got an education you could obtain a better paying position. And I know that there are large companies with well paying jobs in many of the states you guys are posting from. It seems to me that like most people alot of this is just sour grapes. When I read stories of how guys are passing on 320 and 350 bulls because they want a 400 bull it makes me sad that hunting has reached this type of competive place. That's my take on this situation and good luck to all this season.
 
Seems like you have ate some sour grapes. People from AZ are knot complaining about the cost of a tag.I spend more money on gas scouting than I do on any tag that I have.And I dont think AZGFD or people of AZ need you to support our AZ Game and Fish Department.It seems to me its all about the money with you. And some peple that wait ten years to draw a tag have every right to hold out for a 350 + BULL its there tag. thay have earned it.Whats with the low wage stuff. I make a nice living here in AZ. You must have lived here before as a sailor and found a better paying job somewhere els. Well better pay 10% draw. Less pay 90% draw . ps dont be so mad mike.
 
I dont know if this has been covered, if so then i appologize if not then here it is.
Arizona has Elk and it has Elk habitat. Compared to Colorado or one of the other big Elk states we do not compare for habitat size or number of animals. Therefore we have to regulate the amount of tags for the species so tehy are not over hunted, which I might add is one of the reasons we have the trophy animals we do.
So it has to be regulated that way. I understand about how someone says when you talk about hunting you are talking about not being able to hunt antlered game.
To that hunter I ask have you ever hunted in Arizona?
Ever hunted mule deer here. We went from 96000 tags in the eighties to like 36000 tags now. I dont even put in for MD any more unless it's north of the colorado river, and that is a rare thing.
So now we have limited habitat for elk, low deer densities and It's not much of a waterfowling state to speak of although there are times when a few ducks can be had. Quail hunting depends on the rain which we get now and again this year was good for once in 10 years.
What Else do we have, Oh yeah we have a declinnig javelina population in alot of areas. Just try getting an antelope tag in AZ as a resident if you do it is like winning the lottery. Mtn lion, Seen one in the wild since i was 2 and I guide here. We have some decent bear hunting at times, but i think it is that way because i dont beliebve alot of folks get into it, due to the hot weather, our season starts in August when its 100+ during the day which gives you a couple hours in the morning and evening to glass, unless you have dogs. did I mention getting a tag fo sandhill crane. Cmon.
People that live in the midwest such as Wisconsin have all the deer they can shoot at, Ive hunted there so dont say it isnt true, you guys are lucky to have that.
Colorado has prime elk habitat and alot more elk, as does wyoming montana etc.
It all comes down to supply and demand. There is a greater demand in Az for their trophy animals than can be supplied by the number of animals and the habitat which supports them.
With that said Since my 14 year old daughter wants to hunt, is excited every year when the apps are filled out, only to end up tearing up this year because of the total disapointement in not drawing a "cow tag" in four years of applying I'd say im glad we have the cap going back into place. It's whats fair period. I dont mind NR hunters I have friends who are NOn res hunters and I guide nr res hunters, and i disagree with rainsing fees and also the computer app process unless the money is put up front. I dont think a NR shoudl pony up the license money every year even if they dont get drawn but it should be pat of the up front moneys.
Hey good luck to all next year.
Maybe my daughter and me will go hutn rattlers tonight, we got lots of them!
Bugler
 
"Also their are some that say if the NR hunters don't like the rules just stay away. But who would support your game and fish department?"

I don't really want to get involved with this discussion but just to set the record straight, according to the past few years (haven't seen the data for this years draw) non residents don't supply very much money to the department. Resident sales, Heritage funds and donations supply most of the money that the G&F uses. This info came from one of the G&F meetings when we were in the middle of the law suite.
 
I have to chuckle when I wade through this thread. Caps are back and are by unit to help spread out the real NR hunters who are smart enough to know that all the trophy animals are not in just four units. As far as SCI they supported Taulman in a letter from the Dallas chapter and the Tucson branch claimed that did not represent SCI's position. There are major outside interests who are chomping at the bit to take hunting over for those with money. They want high tag prices, landowner tags and outfitter set asides. They are the real enemy of family hunting. As far as the funding arguement Arizona is a steal on tag pricing and there is no way that 10% of 17000 tags can't be made up by a nominal increase in resident tag costs.

I like the AZ G&F not reporting to the politicians and think they truly have the best interest of out habitat and herds at heart. I actually enjoy meeting and helping NR hunters and think the system we have gives them a fair chance to draw at a reasonable cost. Congrats to those who drew and I hope my 7 points for elk will help me next year. Good hunting.
 
Basically what I was saying is that of all the things I have heard on all the websites equates to basically the things I mentioned.
1)You can hunt more often than every ten years just not for antlered game.
2)I do not believe that if you capped the limit of NR hunters to 1% it would satisfy you.
3)If you want more opportunity increase the number of tags, manage for quanity instead of quality.
4)If you want to hunt elk, mule deer don't complain because you can't afford to hunt in another state.
5) If all you want to do is hunt an elk why pass on everything but the largest of bulls and why does your state manage for trophy bulls?.
And I really don't care about the cap, I had decided many years ago that I would rather hunt any elk than wait on the tags for these states that produce these monster bulls. But it's like I always say "Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and aggervates the pig".
 
"And I really don't care about the cap, I had decided many years ago that I would rather hunt any elk than wait on the tags for these states that produce these monster bulls."

Then why are you complaining? It sounds like this thread doens't concern you at all.
 
Mike-If youre talking to me I would be satisfied with 15% NR tags and voted at the fall meetings on USO to pay more as a resident to keep NR tag costs reasonable for the average hunters. I make plenty of money to hunt in other states and I do so and sometimes with an outfitter. I also feel that my personal hunting is less important than my grandson being protected from the greedy. As far as me waiting for a trophy bull I have put in for the unit 5 area and have never even put in for what you would consider a trophy unit. I was perfectly happy shooting cows with my bow until I acccumulated enough points to push me to hold out for a bull tag.

"don't wallow in the mud with pigs-you both get dirty and the pig likes it"
 
Maybe I was unclear. I do hunt out of state and my sons have harvested doe antelope in wyoming because of no tags ever in AZ. I put in for the less desirable species like coues and put in for the october and november hunts. Our family went tagless with 4 applicants for the past 2 years and I was generalizing about how hard it is as a father to keep the spirit of the kids up when you cant provide them with answers they understand. Mike, I am educated and not grade school, two college degrees. I make good money, but without tags in this state, I choose to help out other hunters that have tags to get time in the field. I am not complaining, just wondering where the sport is going here and in the near future in other states. I personally bought a landowner voucher to hunt muleys this year and my checkbook can tell you that it was not in-expensive and yet if I was a resident in the state of colorado, I would be outraged with their current landowner tag situation. There are residents who have 6-8 points that cant draw a good tag and sometimes other people have different goals than shooting spikes/forkies/does................... Thanks, Allen Taylor......
 
FYI...just a point of clarification. Dallas Safari Club is not affiliated with Safari Club International (SCI). Back in the mid-80's 3 Safari Club Chapters withdrew (kicked out) from the parent organizatio cuz they would not accept the parent organizations changes in sharing of funds from donated hunts at Chapter fundraisers (there were a couple other issue but this was the major one). The chapters were Dallas, Houston, and Sacramento. Later Sacramento re affiliated with SCI. I suspect this is the reason you had confusion on the responses from "Safari Clubs" on the USO lawsuit/ Reid legislation.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom