Inch Counters Only!!

[OpeningDay]

Ok gentleman. All this talk about the Dutton and 400" bulls has got me thinking. How do you determine that a bull reaches the 400" mark? Is it that there are so few seen that when one steps out, "you just know". I know there are people that are very good at scoring elk on the hoof and I am not trying to take away anyones credibility in doing so. I look at it like this. Take a 360 bull for example at 500 yards. You add 1 inch to each point and that bull is now over 370". an inch and a half and he is close to 380". Same for the latter, take away that inch or inch and a half and you now have a 340 bull.
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That is about an inch. at 500 yards I bet it looks more like --.
Personally I look at the thirds. Utah bulls seem to gain alot of inches in the thirds. Next, the 5ths. good fifths usually = a good whale tail. Then mass. I think mass goes overlooked, but there are many inches to gain in mass. Good fronts and daggers IMO are easily seen. They are either large or not. What do you professionals look at when it is time to make the call to "put him down" or "let him walk"?? In other words, what is the determining factor that says 400" instead of 380"??

 

[slamdunk]

Well for me on ANY bull no matter WHAT he scores (even pisscutter 370's, lol) i look at a bull at a distance for a long time through my spotter and glasses. If it has the "look" we are looking for, i get out my little calculator and go to work punching in numbers to see what we're actually looking at.

 

[OpeningDay]

I can definetely relate to the "look" on a much smaller scale of course. I was in the Books (roadless) in 06'. I had looked over many bulls in the 5 days prior to the opener, but there were only two that had the "look". One I named "Opening Day". The other "Indian Joe". I was just lucky enough that "Opening Day" happened to be the first bull that showed himself that fine morning. The rest is history.

 

[stinkystomper]

I'm not an expert but the main beams gotta be reaching back toward the flank. That's 60 inch beams, and that's where the biggest part of the score comes from. After that the brow tines gotta reach half way between the eyeduct ends and the nose and curl up at least 4 more inches. Then the remaining tines need to look as long or longer, and bingo 400!??? yes/no? Unfortunately for me I hate score. I've hunted and seen two bulls that made me gasp for air. When I see a bull that makes me gasp for air I'll shoot him, then I'll score him. I've seen 380 bulls that make me go holy crap, and then I've seen 430 bulls like that one full body mounted at the expo that make me say, "I'd never shoot that!" Heck, I'd give my righ arm for a 360 bull with baseball bats for tines! Thats an awe inspiring sight to see something like that! Hey slammy, leave your freakin calculator at home. I'm not going to utah to over analyze crap, I'm going to get an adrenaline rush for god sake. If we look at a bull for more than 1 minute its gonna take the fun out of it.




He who stomps the greatest stinky wins!

 

[slamdunk]

Stinky-
Nope, you said 400" or bust.
I'm bringing my trusty calculator for that 399" bull we throw a rock at ;-)

 

[OpeningDay]

Stinky, you said it best. When you see a bull that makes you gasp for air, don't hesitate, put him down. Worry about score when you get him home. do that and you will have no doubt that you have taken the right one. Then sit back in a chair with a bud and watch Pro and Slammy get all bloody. Ha ha...

 

[troutsniffer]

The only way I know for sure is by studying the bull closely and then read the sign underneath it. I'm only good at scoring bulls at Cabelas and the expo. I'm pretty sure I have never seen a bull over 400 on the hoof.

 

[wildsage]

My guess is that 80% of the hunters have not seen a 360 bull during hunting season much less shoot one. Could be wrong.

Wildsage

 

[nickman]

The mains are key. If I am looking at a bull at 500yds +, I can't really see his brow length or wheather he is busted up or not. If the mains have the length, then I'll try to get closer, otherwise I keep looking.

 

[D13er]

.....and don't forget the fact that alot of "400" inch bull stories are just that. Stories.



great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB

 

[koldtrailin]

I think what is forgotten is that people forget the bulls with extras. Most 400 plus bulls have extra's. Over the years there has been some 6X6 bulls go over 400 gross but how many? I can think of 2 on the Pahvant, 1 on the Manti, 1 if not broken would have been 406 est. muzzle on the Dutton and probly a bunch I am missing but you get the idea. I can think of several 385-400 6 points on all the units in my area. The majority of the 400 plus bulls will have everything you guys describe with extras. Those inches add up fast. When you see the bull with everything including mass width and extras you better pay attention!! He is probly a bull of a lifetime and then some. Ask Ryan, Snedeger, Wilden or any of those hunter that have been blessed enough to kill a 415 plus pig of a BULL!!
Good luck guys.

 

[upmuley]

Most women could tell a difference of an inch even at that distance.

 

[proutdoors]

I have been lucky enough to haul a couple of bulls off the mountain that went over 400 that were 6X6's. The difference in a legit 400 and a 360 is HUGE, but I doubt most can comprehend it unless they have witnessed it in the field. I look at the main beams and fronts first, if they look 'worthy' I then look at the 3rds and 5ths. Width and mass can separate a 380 from a 400 for sure, and width/mass can make the tines/beam length look deceivingly short/long. Nothing is a better teacher for field judging than time in the field judging bulls.

PRO

www.oddiction.com

 

[Romulus]

You can field judge all you want but until you field judge and then experience that bull hitting the ground you are truly guessing. There is no substitute for in the field experience on chasing, guessing and then killing big bulls to get the feel needed to not make a mistake. I'm sure all the "experts" would admit that early on they overjudged several bulls but after analyzing why the score fell short they have learned to look for the areas of weakness that quick assessment might have overlooked. Nobody wants the sick feeling you get when ground shrinkage occurs so the best hunters/guides are paranoid of that occuring. They will let a bull walk before they will call for a hasty shot unless it is just a giant framed no brainer.

 

[slamdunk]

Excellent post romulus, i couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[gznokes]

I've thought about the concept Openingday is describing a fair amount. My conclusion is that you don't look at what a bull has as much as what he doesn't have. When you see the bull with everything you know you are looking at a pig. If one looks at enough elk it is possible to become fairly good at field judging.

The point about extras is also key, one or two extra points can really add to the gross score on any animal especially an elk.

Finally, I'd just add that it is important to have the criteria for B&C judging memorized. When in doubt add it up. Even if you don't take the time to add it up you are more familiar with the factors that make up the score.

Like an earlier post big fronts and fifths are very helpful.

 

[Idcurs]

Over 35 plus years of looking at bulls on the hoof,and putting the tape on hundreds on the ground it gets a lot easier.Some bulls just have that look that if he misses the 400 mark it does not matter.Mass and extras are what makes a bull for me.I shot a 396 bull that was super massive and never thought he was over 375.Point lenght is a lot easier to add up thru optics than mass.

 

[swbuckmaster]

heck if all the experience you have is looking at rag horns you will see the first 280 bull and think it is a 400. I think most hunters in utah are in this catagory. They think they draw the tag and are going to kill a 400" bull. People are so cought up in the numbers game.

I dont care if it is 300 or 400 or 400+ but if you have been scouting the unit you draw you will know if the bull you are looking at is a bull, good bull, or a crap my pants bull because you would have seen what the unit has to offer that year. If the bull is over 400" that is icing on the cake.


Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[tklumker]

Mike Eastman has a system and it is basically learning how to frame score a bull on first glance.

That is basically what I do and then I have a really good idea on whether it is a 300, 360, 380 bull or bigger. You will really know the real big bulls when you see them. We took a 427 (restored) bull in AZ last year (2008) that was broken off and it was confusing for a couple of seconds but then Randy hammered him. This bull is absolutely huge. I have had my hands on 400 class bulls before but a really big bull will just knock your socks off. We took a wide 343 bull on the same hunt and the big boy absolutely dwarfs him.

The difference between a 380-390 and a 400 class bull is fairly close but using the framing method and then a quick look at the total makeup, mass, width, tine length, which usually has to be done fairly quickly, with practice will get you fairly close. I don't always get it right but am usually fairly close.

I used to hang up on thirds and fifths but their is no real consistency in using those measurements.

It takes looking at a lot of bulls over a lot of years to get good at it. You will know a really big bull when you see one.

 

[BCHunter]

>Most women could tell a difference
>of an inch even at
>that distance.

Very underrated post. It gets a golf clap from the cheap seats.

 

[grizzly]

For a bull to go 370, I look for the main beam to reach the light part on the flank, the brow and bez to reach the tip of the nose, solid thirds and good fifths.

If it easily passes all of those, you are probably pushing 400.

Grizzly