So I found some bulls.....

Tope · Jul 20, 2009

I just have to get this out. I was very very lucky and drew a tag for one of Utah's top elk units.I have been making the three hour each way drive every weekend for the last 4 weeks. So any way, I found a herd of bulls. Nice bulls, with a couple of very nice bulls. The problem I have is that both Friday and Saturday night there were several vehicles coming through between 11pm and 3am spotlighting these elk. I don't think they were looking to poach, since there are camps all around. I have a hard time believing this was just a few locals out for a joy ride at 10,000'. I am working my butt off solo trying to take every opportunity to maximize on my pure luck on an expo tag. I have never hunted one of these high $$$ units before. Is this a common "scouting" technique or am I off base for thinking this is unethical in so many ways?

TripleK · Jul 20, 2009

Unethical and illegal. Sorry, dude. Elk season seems to bring out the WORST in some people anymore.

NeverStopHuntin · Jul 20, 2009

unethical. . .maybe

illegal. . .no

If someone can spotlight the bulls you are watching then you are probably scouting way way too close to the roads

slamdunk · Jul 20, 2009

Not that i do it, but in this kind of extreme heat that we're having, locating elk at night is one of the only ways to see what you have.

I know several guides out on top LE units right now struggeling to see elk "naturally" but their trail cams are lighting up like crazy in the dark at water holes.

theox · Jul 20, 2009

as long as there not poaching i dont think ists a big deal could be local boys just havin a good time spottin. i dont think anything unethical about it! anyway what unit you got a tag for? back in the day we would take a trip up the mountain to spotlight. something to do in these small towns. never harmed a thing doin it. and dint harass just wanted a look at the big boys that only come out at night. i wouldnt wrorry to mucha bout it

isayNUNYA · Jul 20, 2009

Why is it unethical to scout at night?
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"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"

ironranger · Jul 20, 2009

Not much you can do about it. Just focus on your hunt and if you put the work into it just maybe everything will fall into place.

calicokid1 · Jul 20, 2009

I bet its those Minersville boys out doin it again. Did you find empty Keystones?

REDDOG · Jul 20, 2009

it will be going on during the hunt also, get used to it.

300wbyfan · Jul 20, 2009

S
potlighting
Utah Admin. Code R657-5-14
You may not use a spotlight, headlight or other artificial light to locate any protected wildlife, including big game, while having in
your possession a firearm or other weapon or
device that could be used to take or injure protected wildlife.
The use of a spotlight or other artificial light, in any area where protected wildlife are generally found, is prima facie evidence of attempting to locate protected wildlife. (Prima facie evidence means if you're spotlighting, the burden of proof falls on you to prove that you were not attempting to locate protected wildlife.)
The provisions of this section do not apply to the use of the headlights of a motor vehicle or other artificial light in a usual manner
where there is no attempt or intent to locate protected wildlife.
These provisions also do not apply if you're licensed to carry a concealed weapon in accordance with Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7 of the Utah Code, provided you're not using the concealed weapon to hunt or take wildlife. this was taken right out of the 2009 big game guidebook so the way i read it it's illegal.

REDDOG · Jul 20, 2009

no, as long as the gun is in camp you can run the spotlight as much as you want.

no one said anything about hunting while spotlighting.

cantclosethedeal · Jul 21, 2009

Unfortunately, spotlighting IS legal in Utah so long as you do not have a firearm in your vehicle. It is a pretty effective way to locate game, but this ranks up there with flying your ultralight over the Arizona strip looking for bucks. It draws a pretty fuzzy line on fair chase. IMHO
That being said, in my youth, I spotlighted a time or two looking for bucks in new areas. I have since stopped the practice.

swbuckmaster · Jul 21, 2009

LAST EDITED ON Jul-21-09 AT 10:57AM (MST)[p]This is kind of a grey area. How do you think one of the best guides in Utah locates the bulls they hunt?

This is one of the tricks in the bag of tricks they use.

They pay a kid/spotter who drives around at night without a gun and then tells the guide which canyon the bulls are going to be in the next morning.

Archery is a year round commitment!!

HuntinFoo · Jul 21, 2009

It is clear in the proclamation, as stated above that it is 100% legal to spotlight as long as you dont have a gun, or if you have a concealed weapon permit you are legal to spotlight even with a gun. I think you would have a hard time convincing tha law if you had your 270 in the truck, but as long as you just have a pistol you should be fine. I see nothing wrong with spotlighting as long as it is done leagally, just a few more hours of watching wildlife that you couldnt do in the middle of the day when it is 100 deg.

swbuckmaster · Jul 21, 2009

at what point does it become game harassment which is illegal?

is it ethical?

I personally think it should be banned and enforced

Archery is a year round commitment!!

stinkystomper · Jul 21, 2009

Sorry SW, but they are flooding my state with wolves. I've personally watched wolves chase herds, note I said herds of elk all day long. I saw them at noon, at 10 am and at 3am chasing herds of elk. I sleept at night but am pretty sure they chased them all night as well. How can we say locating elk at night isn't ok but releasing the worst monsters ever to relentlessly persue our most prized posessions is ok. I say screw all the nit picking legislation like this and put it to good use in utah officially banning the wolf in that state before your herds are wiped out. I seriously doubt a night location ban would have nearly the effect as an outright ban on wolves in Utah. And yes Utah can go against washington cramming crap down their throat and put an outright ban on these beasts.

cabinfever · Jul 21, 2009

I think spot lighting is ethical as long as you don't try and hold the spotlight while you shoot. Always have your buddy hold the light while you shoot.....than it's ethical. And never, never, have the driver hold the light, drive, and try too shoot at the same time. That kind of behavior is unethical!

Seriously, what is the difference between spot lighting and hanging a trail camera........

Welcome to the era of tecnology where bows shoot over 300 fps,european glass can extend our vision for miles,and rifles can polax a monster buck at over 1/2 mile. Unless you wear a loin cloth and hunt with a spear tipped stick, you likely employ or use some type of tecnology that gives the animal an unfair advantage.

Just my two cents not trying to get anyone riled up!

swbuckmaster · Jul 21, 2009

I will do it "if it is still legal" when I draw a once in a life time elk tag.

you need every trick out to accomplish your task especially if you are trying to kill something above average.

I just feel it is border line ethical IMHO. Kind of like a 60+ yard bow shot!

As for wolves I aint never seen wolves in Utah just big coyotes!
sss. Is that ethical?;-)

Archery is a year round commitment!!

betterlucky · Jul 21, 2009

Like I have read in one of the other post, It is great when you are working your AZZ off and somebody is spotlight all during your hunt.I would love to see something changed but a TON of people do it and don't have a problem "teaching" this behavior to their kids. I wish people would give a crap about the other hunters in the woods and teach their kids with a little more ethics. Just my 2 cents Andy

HuntinFoo · Jul 21, 2009

Now if you are spotlighting during your hunt then their may be some bad ethics involved their. But to do it in the summer as a scouting technique I see no problem. I love to go spotlighting all summer long, sometimes in areas I have a tag and sometimes in areas I dont (just to see some quality animals.) You would be amazed at what you may find spotlighting, espacially in general areas (I have been), around here most deer and elk that live past 2 yrs old are 99% nocternal thaey have to be to live that long. It just gives me some motivation to actually hunt these geneal hunts that all but suck.

Gator · Jul 21, 2009

I love going out spotlight and seeing those monster bucks and Bulls some of these buck it the only time we see them.Couple of times we spotlighted lion in those same fields. We all thought we might of saved a deer or two that night, With being said we don't carry guns and we always check in with the local LE. so if they get a call about us they already know whats going on.
I'm just a SOB that for sure for loving a good spotlight..

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".

NVPete · Jul 22, 2009

One of my fondest memories led to spotlighting. My boy was bugling to a bull one night and he was bugling back...it went on for quite some time. We both decided to grab a spotlight and get a look at this bull if we could... even with the light on him, he circled about 8 or 9 cows, kept pausing to bugle, then rack his antlers to make a crashing sound...kept circling the cows, trying to prevent them from "checking out" what the "other bull" might have to offer. After watching this for 15-20 minutes, we just left... I guess this was "unethical",and maybe bordering on "harassment" but in NV not illegal. As someone else has posted, I have seen lots of game (bobcats,a lion,coyotes, really nice bucks calmly lying in a field) I might not have encountered some of this during daylight or other times. I used to go out spotlighting with a video cam, but I have had just as much success early morning/late evening, so I no longer even spotlight...I guess IMHO it's not so unethical...there can be such a broad range of "fair chase" with all the modern technological advantages... it becomes a judgment call or someone's opinion just what constitutes "ethics" and "fair chase".

rugarm77 · Jul 22, 2009

Well at first I thought it was not ok to spotlight. But after reading some of the pros and cons I can see both sides.

I guess if you are not breaking the law then go ahead. A-lot of questions come to mind,,,,,,,,,,, Is this unfair to the game?? At first I would be inclined to say yes however I guess if it was a big deal then states would put a ban on it.

Now as far as a guide is concerned I can see how they would want the best for the clients. They compete each year for customers and that is how they provide for their family and income.

It's kind of like having a block of salt??? Legal ya in a-lot of states but it is a personal choice. Ethical??? That is up to you, some people will argue both ways right?

So I guess I look at it like this. If you are not breaking the law then leave the choice to you. I see a-lot more serious crimes taking place.

If you want to have beef with someone go after the pricks who are poaching and stealing from the average hunter that plays by the rules. Thanks for you time to read this. Rug

GSH · Jul 23, 2009

Sounds like Monroe???

OpeningDay · Jul 23, 2009

This subject got me thinking. I know some say it is ethical and some say it is not. I am on the fence. I don't see a problem with it when people are using spotlights to view the wildlife in the summer/winter, whenever... But I do not think it is ok if people are using a spotlight the night before the opener to locate an animal they can sit on all night. One scenario comes to mind. Let me know if you could see this happening. Night before the opener I go out at 4 in the a.m. with my spot light (no gun) and locate a quality buck/bull. I keep an eye on him til morning, (still no gun). Keep the buck/bull in my sight til he decides to bed down. Now he is pin pointed. I hop on the quad, run back to camp, trade the spotlight for the rifle and head back up to where I put the buck/bull to sleep. Lay down with my bi pod and Kaboom. maybe its never happened, maybe it has. sounds legal, but very unethical to me... What do you think?? Could this happen??

swbuckmaster · Jul 23, 2009

there are two reasons I have problems with it here they are.

how about when these spotters working for the guides go out when the hunters are asleep during the hunt and locate the bulls with the lights the hunter and the guide are going to hunt the next morning. They keep doing this until the hunter tags out. This is a grey area for me. it's legal right now so I would do it if I had a LE tag!

second reason is I think our division is stretched out already with staff. I don't think we need to have them patrolling all night. If it were illegal to spot light then more people/hunters would call it in. More poachers might get caught!

Archery is a year round commitment!!

carbonnation · Jul 23, 2009

SW....Unless I am mistaken, trail cameras don't sleep either. We have all seen the pictures of the big bulls at night posted right here on this sight. To me that is no differant than a paid guide locating with a spot light. This new technology not only takes a picture without spooking the animal, but it gives you the time, date, moon phase, and rectal temperature of everything that walks by. I really don't think you can come up with an argument to ban spotlighting that doesn't apply to the cameras.
Some will say the cameras don't bother the animals like the spotlights do, but if the spotlights bother the animals so much, then they wouldn't be so easy to find the next day. Using a technique to locate animals that spooks them or causes them to behave unpredictably doesn't sound too effective to me.

swbuckmaster · Jul 24, 2009

LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-09 AT 01:27PM (MST)[p]carbonnation in my eyes

there is a big difference in trail cameras and a guide locating game during the hunt with a spotlight and watching them all night and telling the guides with the hunters where the bulls or bucks are the next day so a hunter can take them at first light.
I use this example because it is probably happening more than it is with the general public in my eyes.

in my eyes
there is a big difference in a trail camera and a poacher taking game in the lights.

In my eyes
spotlighting is legal right now and I will use one when I draw a tag on a LE unit, unless it gets changed. Same with trail cameras!

Don't hate the player hate the game!!!!

BLooDTRaCKeR · Jul 24, 2009

This issue of hunting a highly coveted area that recieves year round pressure both night and day is sad for all those who wait their whole life to draw one of these tags or just happen across one at places like the expo. The high dollars involved in the guide services that seem to run these higher quality units are the reason many of us never get to experience things the way they were intended to be, such as an un-molested scouting or hunting trip, one in which you put in all you got to find the bull your looking for and do everything right to earn the bull you chose to harvest. Things are changing so rapidly now days with guide services and their high dollar clients. I wouldn't be surprised if some crazy things surface this year with the economy forcing everyone to tighten up their belts and do whatever is necessary to secure the trophy for their clients such as running the average joe hunter off the mountain or sitting on a bull from now until september to satisfy their clients wants. I know this crap already goes on but I think it's only going to get worse as time goes on. This type of behavior also tempts the average joe hunter to cut corners and bend rules just to get around some of this crap that guide services are doing. These are free ranging animals on public land and that is the issue we are all dealing with when we go to a prime area to hunt them. I'm sure we'll hear of someone tranquilizing an animal and holding it for opening day. Sorry to hear of your frustrations, Good luck with all the competition out there and take your cell phone with you, report any wildlife abuse/harrassement. WE have to police these areas that we hunt if we want to enjoy it in the future.