Montana Draw Odds?
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Dean Parisian
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-07 AT 09:03AM (MST)[p]The odds with zero points or even 1 point are under 25% for the deer general tag.
Dean Parisian
Chippewa Partners
Team Muleys Pro Staff
http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com
Dean Parisian
Chippewa Partners
Team Muleys Pro Staff
http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com
huntnphool
Active Member
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I talked with MFW&P a couple weeks ago. They told me last years drawing for combo, with no points, was 53%, with 1 point was 78% and 2 points was 89%..............rf
canyoncrosser
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What about antelope tags how hard are they to draw?
B
boneaddict
Guest
I believe there are spots with almost a guaranteed tag.
NeMont
Long Time Member
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Last years elk/deer combo odds were 53% there has been a fairly healthy increase in both applications and in people holding multiple preference points that the elk/deer combo odds for drawing with no points have gone down. At least that is what the people at the region 6 HQ told me.
Antelope tag drawing odds depends on the district. A region 7 tag is fairly easy and bow tag are guaranteed.
Nemont
Antelope tag drawing odds depends on the district. A region 7 tag is fairly easy and bow tag are guaranteed.
Nemont
canyoncrosser
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How about region 3 for antelope?
B
BlueLeader
Guest
In regards to the draw odds in Montana, I wouldn't be surprised if those tags got a little harder to get this year. The reason is, the Outfitter Guaranteed tags went up for both deer and elk/deer combo. The elk/deer combos really went up. I had some of my clients try their luck on the lottery instead of buying the guaranteed tags due to financial reasons. One of Montana's genius ideas again, trying to regulate the demand by pricing the everday sportsman right out of the game. This is due to over-sells of the outfitter guaranteed tags by some greedy outfitters that sell the tags to out of staters and never see or hear from them again. This being extremely illegal, not to mention un-ethical, it is very difficult for the Board of Outfitters to catch them, therefore driving the prices up, and up, and up, until nobody will want one.
That's just my theory on how things will play out this year in regards to the lottery. I hope that it works out well for all of you guys. Put in for region 700 for antelope, odds are good and we are having a pretty good spring for horn growth and we got plenty of moisture last fall, so they should take right off.
That's just my theory on how things will play out this year in regards to the lottery. I hope that it works out well for all of you guys. Put in for region 700 for antelope, odds are good and we are having a pretty good spring for horn growth and we got plenty of moisture last fall, so they should take right off.
NeMont
Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-07 AT 02:33PM (MST)[p]
Totally off topic
Blueleader,
How many average hunters hire an outfitter? I wish Montana would do away with the Outfitter Sponsored tags and put all of the tags into the draw pool. That would help out the average hunter way more then worrying about the cost of Outfitter Sponsored tags
I believe every year the Outfitter Sponsored tags sell out. They are priced on supply and demand. So that system works fine.
Not trying to argue with you but to say that you are worried about the "average" hunter is a littlie misleading. I think you meant you are worried fewer will be want to hunt with you because of the price. If these are repeat clients that can spend $5,500 every year for a hunt they are not average.
Nemont
Totally off topic
Blueleader,
How many average hunters hire an outfitter? I wish Montana would do away with the Outfitter Sponsored tags and put all of the tags into the draw pool. That would help out the average hunter way more then worrying about the cost of Outfitter Sponsored tags
I believe every year the Outfitter Sponsored tags sell out. They are priced on supply and demand. So that system works fine.
Not trying to argue with you but to say that you are worried about the "average" hunter is a littlie misleading. I think you meant you are worried fewer will be want to hunt with you because of the price. If these are repeat clients that can spend $5,500 every year for a hunt they are not average.
Nemont
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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Nemont,
I agree with you 100%.
Time to do away with the entire outfitter sponsored tag B.S. in Montana. The state of Montana should not be subsidizing the outfitting business.
Make it one draw for everyone and roll the dice. Let the hunters decide if they need a guide or not.
Nothing like good old state sponsored outfitter welfare...
I agree with you 100%.
Time to do away with the entire outfitter sponsored tag B.S. in Montana. The state of Montana should not be subsidizing the outfitting business.
Make it one draw for everyone and roll the dice. Let the hunters decide if they need a guide or not.
Nothing like good old state sponsored outfitter welfare...
I agree 100%.
I'm from Quebec,in eastern Canada.
In Canada we have taken outfitter sponsoring to a new level : non-residents must hire a guide to hunt, period. This doesn't only apply to non-canadians, but also to canadian citizens living in other provinces. Since elk or mule deer hunting is limited to 2 or 3 western provinces, that means I cannot hunt them in my country without hiring a guide, and you know the price ( 4000 and up, in U.S. funds !!!! ).
In fact I have more hunting rights in USA, where I'm considered like any non-resident, but at least I can enter any draw and may be get a tag, and hunt on my own.
Please, keep on fighting for your freedom to hunt, don't end up like Canada !!!
I'm from Quebec,in eastern Canada.
In Canada we have taken outfitter sponsoring to a new level : non-residents must hire a guide to hunt, period. This doesn't only apply to non-canadians, but also to canadian citizens living in other provinces. Since elk or mule deer hunting is limited to 2 or 3 western provinces, that means I cannot hunt them in my country without hiring a guide, and you know the price ( 4000 and up, in U.S. funds !!!! ).
In fact I have more hunting rights in USA, where I'm considered like any non-resident, but at least I can enter any draw and may be get a tag, and hunt on my own.
Please, keep on fighting for your freedom to hunt, don't end up like Canada !!!
B
BlueLeader
Guest
I think that you would be surprised at how many "average" hunters go with an outfitter, and just what exactly is an "average" hunter. It seems to me that I was going to bat for the "average" hunter by saying that the prices were getting out of hand. Before you start in about getting rid of the outfitter tags and how that would help the "average" hunter.........not so much. The outfitter sponsored tags are what fund the Block Management program that Montana is so proud of. Take away the sponsored tags, take away the Block program, take away opportunities for the "average" hunter. As soon as that happens, the landowner now has to find some way to make up that annual income that the block program was bringing in, how does he do that......charges the "average" hunter. Or the price of the general tag goes through the roof and everyone, including the "average" hunter helps to make up the lost revenue to fund the Block program. I am all about the "average" hunter, beleive me, I think that it's great that the "average" hunter comes out to hunt in Montana because the "average" hunters are usually the best ones to have around. Do I think that Montana charges the "average" hunter too much...............certainly. So don't accuse me of being anti "average" hunter because I am definetly not, exactly why I think that if Montana isn't careful they will take all opportunities for the "average" hunter away economically.
Don't you think that $5,500.00 is just a little over-board for Montana?
Don't you think that $5,500.00 is just a little over-board for Montana?
NeMont
Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-07 AT 01:00PM (MST)[p]
Perhaps the Residents hunters could suck it up and pay more for their tags to replace the Block Management Dollars. We resident hunters pay a stupidly low price for tags.
.
There were approximately 170,000 resident hunter last year in Montana. If we charged each of them $25 more we would generate $4,250,000 of revenue which is more the last years $3.9 million dollar block management budget. The landowners would not be affected in any way. They would recieve the exact same amount of money as previous years.
There would be greater availability of tags to all participants if the current Outfitter Guarantee Tags were placed into the general pool. It seems to work in Wyoming.
I have Outfitters for friends and clients none of them cater to, are interested in nor care about the "average" hunter. They are all about money, which is their right as they have private property and can do as they wish with it. I suspect your only worry is that your bottom line will suffer as tag prices rise. I know that is all MOGA cares about as I have talked to enough of their representatives. It is a good thing for Outfitters that MOGA has been able to snow job the legislature of Montana and that resident hunters are so apathetic.
You have no right to cry as you will sell out your tag allotment and are encouraging other clients to take opportunities away from other DIY hunters by putting them into the draw pool. If you cared about the "average" hunter you would lobby MOGA to get the law changed, FYI the legislature listens to everything MOGA says. Have you picked up the phone and called Mac Minard to tell the legislature to do something about the cost of outfitter sponsored tags?
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You want to reduce or control the price of Outfitter Guaranteed tags but then you say they are completely necessary to fund Block Management.
Like most Outfitters you want to have your income guaranteed and would like to eliminate any competition but also would like to reduce opportunity for every DIY NR hunter. You have a right to have a business but the State of Montana should not be subsidizing it with guaranteed tags. There are a million and one ways to continue to fund Block Management that is an empty arguement.
I am not anti Outfitting, I am just tired of Outfitters whining all the time about the way the State charges too much etc. MOGA wrote the bill that created the current Outfitter Guarantee System and put in the market based component to the tags.
Nemont
Perhaps the Residents hunters could suck it up and pay more for their tags to replace the Block Management Dollars. We resident hunters pay a stupidly low price for tags.
.
There were approximately 170,000 resident hunter last year in Montana. If we charged each of them $25 more we would generate $4,250,000 of revenue which is more the last years $3.9 million dollar block management budget. The landowners would not be affected in any way. They would recieve the exact same amount of money as previous years.
There would be greater availability of tags to all participants if the current Outfitter Guarantee Tags were placed into the general pool. It seems to work in Wyoming.
I have Outfitters for friends and clients none of them cater to, are interested in nor care about the "average" hunter. They are all about money, which is their right as they have private property and can do as they wish with it. I suspect your only worry is that your bottom line will suffer as tag prices rise. I know that is all MOGA cares about as I have talked to enough of their representatives. It is a good thing for Outfitters that MOGA has been able to snow job the legislature of Montana and that resident hunters are so apathetic.
You have no right to cry as you will sell out your tag allotment and are encouraging other clients to take opportunities away from other DIY hunters by putting them into the draw pool. If you cared about the "average" hunter you would lobby MOGA to get the law changed, FYI the legislature listens to everything MOGA says. Have you picked up the phone and called Mac Minard to tell the legislature to do something about the cost of outfitter sponsored tags?
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You want to reduce or control the price of Outfitter Guaranteed tags but then you say they are completely necessary to fund Block Management.
Like most Outfitters you want to have your income guaranteed and would like to eliminate any competition but also would like to reduce opportunity for every DIY NR hunter. You have a right to have a business but the State of Montana should not be subsidizing it with guaranteed tags. There are a million and one ways to continue to fund Block Management that is an empty arguement.
I am not anti Outfitting, I am just tired of Outfitters whining all the time about the way the State charges too much etc. MOGA wrote the bill that created the current Outfitter Guarantee System and put in the market based component to the tags.
Nemont
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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Nemont,
As usual, great post. I couldnt add anything to make it better.
Dont forget you could even raise the NR deer combo, elk combo, and deer/elk combo $25-$50 dollars as well if they were all open to the public draw. That would generate another big chunk of change for the Block Management Program.
On top of that...the State of Montana could have a check off where a hunter could donate a dollar or more to the BMP every time they bought a license.
Wyoming has that program and they generate enough to fund darn near all of the Access Yes Program...all through voluntary donations from hunters.
The wife and I each kick in $50 a year when we buy our new fishing licenses each year for the Access Yes program.
As usual, great post. I couldnt add anything to make it better.
Dont forget you could even raise the NR deer combo, elk combo, and deer/elk combo $25-$50 dollars as well if they were all open to the public draw. That would generate another big chunk of change for the Block Management Program.
On top of that...the State of Montana could have a check off where a hunter could donate a dollar or more to the BMP every time they bought a license.
Wyoming has that program and they generate enough to fund darn near all of the Access Yes Program...all through voluntary donations from hunters.
The wife and I each kick in $50 a year when we buy our new fishing licenses each year for the Access Yes program.
L
live2huntmuleys
Guest
NeMont great post.
I could not agree with you more, lets chip in a little more money and make the out staters draw just like the rest of us. It is getting tougher and tougher to find places to hunt when you have to compete with the outfitters. I got in an argument with a hunter and his giude this past fall. I was on horses in the backcrountry enjoying a nice ride when I came around the corner and noticed a bright orange jump suit trying to hind behind some bushes about 10 feet off of the trail. My horse "snuck" right up on the guy and damn near made him jump out that orange jump suit. I was very friendly with the guy who immediately took the defensive claiming that I was hunting in his area. There were four of us with ten horses and I was not about to get off of my horse. He claimed that he had bought a "guranteed" tag from an outfitter and that we did not belong back there. To make a long story short it is people like this that make me disagree with the guranteed tags. Dont get me wrong I have a lot of friends who are in the outfitting business and they are great people, I feel you should not gurantee an out of state hunter a tag just because he can afford it.
I could not agree with you more, lets chip in a little more money and make the out staters draw just like the rest of us. It is getting tougher and tougher to find places to hunt when you have to compete with the outfitters. I got in an argument with a hunter and his giude this past fall. I was on horses in the backcrountry enjoying a nice ride when I came around the corner and noticed a bright orange jump suit trying to hind behind some bushes about 10 feet off of the trail. My horse "snuck" right up on the guy and damn near made him jump out that orange jump suit. I was very friendly with the guy who immediately took the defensive claiming that I was hunting in his area. There were four of us with ten horses and I was not about to get off of my horse. He claimed that he had bought a "guranteed" tag from an outfitter and that we did not belong back there. To make a long story short it is people like this that make me disagree with the guranteed tags. Dont get me wrong I have a lot of friends who are in the outfitting business and they are great people, I feel you should not gurantee an out of state hunter a tag just because he can afford it.
B
BlueLeader
Guest
NeMont
I agree...........charge the resident hunters more for our tags, that is a great plan. Put all of the tags in one pool, another good idea that I have no problem with......glad that we could agree on something. But do me a favor.......don't throw me in the same pool as most of the other outfitters, due to the fact that I do care about the average as a lot of my freinds and family are the average hunter and I am not just worried about my bottom line. If we could come up with an alternative plan to fund the Block program, great, but right now they aren't willing to do it. Another thing, I am not against the DIY hunter, I am one, your one, most of the people that log into this are one, but there are alot of sportsman out there that are not and don't care to be, you can't argue with that, so don't accuse me of trying to "reduce opportunities" of the DIY hunter, and I am not one bit afraid of competition nor am I wanting a "guaranteed income".
Excuse me if I sound like I am talking out both sides of my mouth as I am all for the DIY hunter, if they can come up with an alternative to Block Management funding, that is great. And FYI, I am not a member of MOGA.
BlueLeader
I agree...........charge the resident hunters more for our tags, that is a great plan. Put all of the tags in one pool, another good idea that I have no problem with......glad that we could agree on something. But do me a favor.......don't throw me in the same pool as most of the other outfitters, due to the fact that I do care about the average as a lot of my freinds and family are the average hunter and I am not just worried about my bottom line. If we could come up with an alternative plan to fund the Block program, great, but right now they aren't willing to do it. Another thing, I am not against the DIY hunter, I am one, your one, most of the people that log into this are one, but there are alot of sportsman out there that are not and don't care to be, you can't argue with that, so don't accuse me of trying to "reduce opportunities" of the DIY hunter, and I am not one bit afraid of competition nor am I wanting a "guaranteed income".
Excuse me if I sound like I am talking out both sides of my mouth as I am all for the DIY hunter, if they can come up with an alternative to Block Management funding, that is great. And FYI, I am not a member of MOGA.
BlueLeader
NeMont
Long Time Member
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BlueLeader,
I wish I could believe you but on your website you brag about locking the public out of public lands and using them exclusively for your clients.
Here is the quote from your website:
"We specialize in trophy quality mule deer and antelope, with a few good whitetails thrown in the mix. All of these hunts take place on private ranches with some public land but no public access".
I find it interesting that you will willing lock up public lands and complain about the cost of tags.
But back to the subject. Montana could fix the issue through either the legislature or through the initiatvie process but your industry, whether you are a MOGA member or not, goes CRAZY whenever anyone dares to suggest getting rid of guaranteed tags. You are the first Outfitter I have ever visited with who has agreed with that position.
I really have no personal issues with your outfitting operation, other then the public lands comment, that does bother me. However, the Outfitting Industry in Montana is the entity that wrote the bill, they lobby HARD every session to get more tags, land, money, tax breaks, preference, what ever it is to their advantage with no regard for resident hunters. I am glad to hear that you are different.
I wish the hunters of this state would rise up and take control of their own hunting future and put some more of our money up to fund access so we don't "owe" NR anything for wanting the to come to Montana and hunt.
Nemont
I wish I could believe you but on your website you brag about locking the public out of public lands and using them exclusively for your clients.
Here is the quote from your website:
"We specialize in trophy quality mule deer and antelope, with a few good whitetails thrown in the mix. All of these hunts take place on private ranches with some public land but no public access".
I find it interesting that you will willing lock up public lands and complain about the cost of tags.
But back to the subject. Montana could fix the issue through either the legislature or through the initiatvie process but your industry, whether you are a MOGA member or not, goes CRAZY whenever anyone dares to suggest getting rid of guaranteed tags. You are the first Outfitter I have ever visited with who has agreed with that position.
I really have no personal issues with your outfitting operation, other then the public lands comment, that does bother me. However, the Outfitting Industry in Montana is the entity that wrote the bill, they lobby HARD every session to get more tags, land, money, tax breaks, preference, what ever it is to their advantage with no regard for resident hunters. I am glad to hear that you are different.
I wish the hunters of this state would rise up and take control of their own hunting future and put some more of our money up to fund access so we don't "owe" NR anything for wanting the to come to Montana and hunt.
Nemont
T
TFinalshot
Guest
Ouch!
B
BlueLeader
Guest
NeMont
I am glad that we are finally putting the gloves back on...my jaw was starting to get a little sore. But in reference to your comment about me "bragging" about locking the public out of public grounds.....I didn't mean for it to sound like I was bragging by no means. The most asked question that I get from clients is "Will we be hunting private ground or public ground?", well to answer the question honestly, I tell them that it is all private leases with intermingled public ground, but the public cannot get to it due to the fact that it is landlocked by private, guess that I should have worded it better. That public ground was locked up before I showed up on the scene the minute that the landowner signed the lease agreement with the state or federal entity for grazing purposes because he wasn't willing to have hunters cross his land to get to the public land.
I am fairly new to this business, and beleive me, I don't agree with everything that the state does on the outfitting end or the FW&P end, so I am glad that you are starting to see that I am not just all about a free lunch. I do agree that we, as resident hunters, need to start taking better care of our future so that the "average" hunter has some say as to what goes on and has some place to hunt.
BlueLeader
I am glad that we are finally putting the gloves back on...my jaw was starting to get a little sore. But in reference to your comment about me "bragging" about locking the public out of public grounds.....I didn't mean for it to sound like I was bragging by no means. The most asked question that I get from clients is "Will we be hunting private ground or public ground?", well to answer the question honestly, I tell them that it is all private leases with intermingled public ground, but the public cannot get to it due to the fact that it is landlocked by private, guess that I should have worded it better. That public ground was locked up before I showed up on the scene the minute that the landowner signed the lease agreement with the state or federal entity for grazing purposes because he wasn't willing to have hunters cross his land to get to the public land.
I am fairly new to this business, and beleive me, I don't agree with everything that the state does on the outfitting end or the FW&P end, so I am glad that you are starting to see that I am not just all about a free lunch. I do agree that we, as resident hunters, need to start taking better care of our future so that the "average" hunter has some say as to what goes on and has some place to hunt.
BlueLeader
B
BlueLeader
Guest
BuzzH
Thanks, this little debate will make the next argument with my wife seem like a day off. NeMont is not only extremely educated, but also highly opinionated.............I like that in a person. Now if we can just get our points across to the people who can do something about it........yeah, I'm not holding my breath.
BlueLeader
Thanks, this little debate will make the next argument with my wife seem like a day off. NeMont is not only extremely educated, but also highly opinionated.............I like that in a person. Now if we can just get our points across to the people who can do something about it........yeah, I'm not holding my breath.
BlueLeader
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