We have the power to change management

P

Prince

Guest
I quit posting on MonsterMuleys a long time ago because I felt that most conversations on this site usually deteriorated into bickering, name calling, and foul-mouthed ranting. I don't know if any of you remember me, but I use to post fairly often several years ago until I got into a shouting match with a few members and left. My apologies to any that I offended.

The reason I'm posting now is due to the excellent comments I've been reading on the "Can We Do Better in Utah" thread of posts. I don't think I've ever agreed more with a post than groundshrink's about the pressure we put mule deer through in Utah. I believe he hit the issue right on the head. I believe that with the way Utah's mule deer are so relentlessly pursued for nearly a quarter of the year each year, they'll never recover in numbers.

Let me say this, however: Each year after the hunts are over we inevitably have discussions such as this regarding how we can make things better in Utah. There is always a thread of hopelessness that weaves its way through each topic. Phrases like "the DWR needs to" and "when will they" and "what needs to happen is." It's as if we need others to solve our problems, when, as I see it, we have all of the power as sportsmen and women.

"How?" you ask. Well, as I see it, it's all about the money. If we all got together via the power of the Internet, via word of mouth, via ads posted in popular magazines, etc. and spread the word about a "Voluntary No Hunt Season" where we all voluntarily decided to not hunt during the general hunts in 2006, thus costing the UDWR tens of thousands or potentially hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, then I believe they'd sit up and pay more attention to the average sportsman.

Sure, you might think that no one would go for this idea, and assuredly not everyone will. But if even a few thousand hunters decided not to send the UDWR their general season money for 2006, think of the impact. As long as we keep sending the UDWR our money year after year, what motivation do they have to change?

Think of all the special discounts, new vehicle designs, and new policies and implementations the US domestic automakers are putting into place because they're losing more and more business to foreign automakers. Money talks, folks. Plain and simple.

If we could get something put together where hunters voluntarily agree not to send money to the UDWR for the general hunts (yes, still apply for limited entry hunts, OIL hunts, etc.) and let several thousand of those 97,000 permits sit unclaimed on the counter, then you bet they'd think about changing things.

Now, think about this, if we could even get one-third of Utah's hunters to skip their general season hunts for one year, that would cost the UDWR over a million dollars. Think they'd start implementing new ideas then? I think so.

IF A CERTAIN BUSINESS' CUSTOMERS ARE OBVIOUSLY UNSATISFIED AND ARE NOT BUYING THE PRODUCT THE BUSINESS IS OFFERING, THEN YOU BET, NEW IDEAS WILL BE CONSIDERED.

Again, this post is just food for thought. Let's remember, we have the power to make a change. Never in the history of the world have average citizens had the power to implement changes due to the voice we collectively have. I believe we can start a campaign and see it to fruition if we use the Internet and sites such as this to publish an idea to boycott a year of hunting to show the UDWR that we're dissatisfied with the quality of mule deer hunting we're seeing in Utah.

Yes, people will say things such as drought, winter range depletion, etc., but get off the Wasatch Front and see all of the prime country that exists with very few mule deer roaming the hills in Utah. Elk are increasing like crazy in Utah, so let's not focus all of our energy on land losses. Yes, elk and mule deer need different types of food to survive, but, again, I believe the land is there to sustain much larger mule deer herds if they're managed correctly.

One more time, if we all send a clear message via the withholding of our money for a general season, maybe the UDWR will think more seriously about the mule deer's future in Utah.
 
I agree with Prince. Money talks and BS walks. As long as agencies get their big fat pay checks, they'll continue to sit on their rear ends and do absolutely nothing. Take away the money and things will happen in a hurry.
The only problem with this is that most sportsmen won't give up hunting their favorite spots for a year. The mentality for this type of move just isn't out there yet.
The best thing to do is convince Non-resident hunters from hunting a particular State for one year. As much as Non-residents pay, it would bankrupt most of big games states IMO.
 
I've been doing that very thing for several years. The problem is there's always someone to take my place and all the tags sell out anyway.
 
It's a shame we can't all stand together on this one. If enough hunters boycotted the general season for just one year, our points on interest would be heard, and we wouldn't have to count on groups like SFW to represent us.
 
I think this is a great idea, but the logistics of such a movement are a nightmare! It would have to be very public, and now would be the time! We may even be to late, registration for general permits happens as early as Jan 01. This is something you would need to plaster everywhere in the next two months. Hunters are not going to willing give-up the general season without KNOWING that everyone else is too, and that it will make a difference. If this was really going to be pushed, it needs to be in the news, on Doug Miller, all over Cabela's and Sportsman's, in magazines..... Hunters who put in for general season tags need to feel guilty and be critisized by their peers....

I'm just not sure that it's possible, but I'm in.
 
>Hunters
>who put in for general
>season tags need to feel
>guilty and be critisized by
>their peers....

I cant think of a single positive thing that could result from belittling and critisizing our fellow hunters and making them feel guilty at a time when our sport is struggling against those who want to see it disappear altogether.

We need to be united, not come up with new ways to divide outselves. There are some great ideas presented here and the real only way they will come about is if we elect who will, or pass propositions to, change existing methods.


-DallanC
 
holy crap i didnt see that ,,,, i need to be criticized for hunting general seasons ? huh ? are you a anti hunting plant ? dallan i couldnt agree with you more ,,,
 
Money talks... agreed.

Now, instead of hurting ourselves as a hunting community and taking away the income that our DWR survives on. Let's see about getting the state and federal level tax money involved.

I've seen articles written before about "non-consumptive" users.
Almost everday people enjoy wildlife and the outdoors, bird watchers, campers, photographers, etc. These people are utilizing the same natural resource we are in a different form. But for some reason, we are expected to foot the bill alone. Our license money is used to buy property on occasion, study wildlife and pay people to organize and watch over it all.

How about the amount of revenue generated by our dollars that aren't spent on licenses? We buy more gas, we eat at local resteraunts, use local businesses, hotels, etc. Studies are done constantly about how much money hunters pump into the economy while hunting. How come none of the tax revenue is kicked back to us? Why do we continue to let this sort of thing happen?

The general public still conceives hunters as killers... not conservationists. It has been proven time and again that hunters are always the group to step up to the plate and help protect and strengthen the number of animals and even save them from extinction. Let's focus on getting them educated and get some help instead of trying to carry the load alone.

-Lucas :)~

http://www.monstermuleys.com/cgi-bin/stories/site.pl?page=lucasdavis10103
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-05 AT 01:43PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-05 AT 01:39?PM (MST)

We should definitely not criticize other hunters for not participating, but I don't think it would be time wasted if we did our best to circulate the possibility of boycotting a year and encouraging other hunters to do so.

Think about it, we have the DWR's Web site we could post this topic on and several other hunting and fishing Web sites that I can think of, and as was mentioned, we could propose the idea to other outlets as well.

Think about what would happen if every hunter who was interested e-mailed a form letter and a petition to every hunter that he/she knows and asked that the message be forwarded on to other hunters. In just a short amount of time, we could reach thousands upon thousands.

We could start a collection and advertize in popular magazines and on TV; we could start an online poll and petition to determine possible hunter participation; we could circulate handouts at popular hunting venues and places of business if they will allow.

As was suggested, maybe we're too late this year, but the idea could be proposed for 2007.

There are many things that could be done if we are willing...
 
another thought, have some of us lost sight of why we do this thing called hunting ? cant see the forest because of the trees thing ? some here seem to be very unhappy with their hunting efforts ,,,can it be better ? sure ,,, is better good ? you bet ,,, but if we cant find any enjoyment out of what we (love) to do ,,,, maybe we should just take up watching the paint on the wall dry ,,,, its supposed to be FUN guys ,,, i for one HATE watching paint dry :)
 
I believe that things are the way they are because that is how the majority of the hunters want it. I believe we get in our heads that because we want something, everyone else must want it that way too, and that's simply not true. No matter how you see it, the majority of the hunters just want to buy their deer tag, head out with the family, and have a good time.
If you don't believe me, just try out this plan, and see how many people don't buy tags. My guess is it that there will be precious few that don't go hunting, and the majority will have spoken.

I consider myself a very dedicated, and above average hunter, and like most of us "serious" or "trophy" hunters, would love to see more and better quality deer, but I strongly believe that there are ways to achieve that without disallowing people the opportunity to go out hunting each, and every year.

I drew a Utah LE elk tag this year after 9 years of trying. Hunt of a lifetime, right? Not a chance! Yes, it was a great hunt, but the fact is I consider my general season, over the counter deer tag to be my BEST tag each and every year no matter how many other LE, out of state, or whatever other tags I might have that year.

I'm going to buy a tag.
 
-holy crap i didnt see that ,,,, i need to be criticized for hunting general seasons ? huh ? are you a anti hunting plant ? dallan i couldnt agree with you more ,,,

IT WAS HYPOTHETICAL!!!!
I absolutely love hunting and the general season! I simply meant that we need to be united. What good will it do if we don't encourage others to join the cause? Word of mouth would probably end up being the strongest advocate of such a push. Okay, criticizing fellow hunters is not the ideal way to get this done, but we would need to be very vocal about our cause...

Sorry for the toes I inadvertently crushed...
 
"and let several thousand of those 97,000 permits sit unclaimed on the counter, then you bet they'd think about changing things."

I think you're going about it all wrong. I'll admit I don't know about how the UDWR operates, but I assume they have public meetings. How many hunters show up to those meetings? You'd be much more effective if those "several thousand" hunters showed up to every meeting and voiced their opinions. You'd be more effective if those several thousand hunters wrote letters every month voicing their opinions. My guess is that Utah is just like CO in that the same 10-15 people show up to each public meeting. Voicing your complaints on an internet message board is going to get you nowhere.

Before anyone jumps on me...I'm sure everyone involved in this thread actively participates with public input. The problem is that the other 96,990 people don't care enough to get involved. That's the sad fact, and unless you can do something to change it, the money interests will win out.

Oak
 
Is boycotting really the best way to go about getting things changed? I really don't know to tell you the truth, but doesn't a good chunk of the money spent on licenses go towards helping out the wildlife? Perhaps the best way to change things is to get people out to the public meetings. Also, if you plop down a document with 20,000 signatures on it in front of the head honchos that says that everyone that has signed it is willing to give up a hunting season to better the deer population, you may get a better response than if a couple of thousand people don't buy licenses. I really don't know, just a few thoughts.
 
i think that there are some good points on this page but i dont think you could ever unite that many people, too many people, including myself, could not give up my tag just so someone else could get it. but i do agree with what Oak says about nobody showing up to these meetings. i think if we showed up in mass numbers, that they would have to listen to our input.
here is just an idea to think about that i think could definitly help out our herds and the quality of bucks taken each year. i think that the state should put a 4 point or better regulation on the hunts. how many of the bucks killed each year are young yearling bucks? where i hunt i see it all the time a camp with 4 or 5 spikes and two points with a tit still hangin out there mouth. sure you would have about two years of slow huntin but think you give all those young bucks a chance and instead of a bunch of young bucks being killed you have a bunch of mature bucks being killed a couple years down the road.
but one thing people dissagree with this is because of the illegal kills. (bucks under a 4 pt.) but think about they have a spike bull elk hunt and rest assured there are illegal kills everyear on that hunt but look at how the elk population in utah is exploding.
letting these bucks mature would also help the heards because each year in some areas some does dont get covered due to the lack of mature deer. if there were more mature bucks capible of completing a good rut season then there would not be the problem of does not getting covered.
just something to think about. let me know what you all think and the problems you see in this plan. id just like to know how others would feel about an idea like this.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-05 AT 09:39PM (MST)[p]Point restrictions have been discussed many times before. Works fine for elk because mostly all elk will become 6 points with age. Doesn't work for deer. It was tried in the Book Cliffs several years ago and soon there were GIANT 2-points doing the breeding. You can see it now out there with all the big 2x3s and 3x4s. It weekens the genetic quality. What does work? Limiting permits (more like 50,000 instead of 97,000). Let whoever gets the permit shoot a 2-point if they like.
 
Thanks Prince for starting this discussion with a proper tone. The thoughts have been provocative and polite, and a breath of fresh air.
I am leaning towards ColoradoOaks thoughts and here is why. The DWR is not a business, it is politics, and politicians think very differently than a businessman. Usually they lack common sense. A loud, overwhelming voice and the possibility of the politicians losing their "power", will be more effective than taking away their money. I deal with politicians all the time and this is how you get them to listen. Take away their money and they will just find another way to get more. In this situation they would ask for an emergency appropriation from the state legislature, and a lousy million bucks would be turned over without a bat of the eye. Or, they would have an emergency over the counter sale to out of staters, or multiple tags per hunter, or anything to sale the left over tags, and they would sale them and make their money.
Not only should we take the actions ColoradoOaks mentioned, but a huge lobbying effort on our elected state officials to fire or re-appoint high ranking members of the DWR would really get their attention. If the DWR got pressure from the top and the bottom, maybe we could squeeze some results out.
Todd
 
verry good post! first off some people may remember me saying for a long time that utah needs to shut down the deer hunt for a couple years. and i have posted the same thing about not buying permits. but that will not happen. the next best thing to do would go back to either sex.. believe it or not there is a lot of meat hunters here. they would rather take a big doe over a small 2 point anyday. some people dont have the luxerary of taking all the time of that some people do. most are the "weekend warriors" they only have the weekend to hunt and they know damn well if they dont get one on opening weekend it gets really hard to fill the tag after that. there are way to many does in this state. if there was not then why do some areas have 2 doe permits?? i know some people say if you kill the does that would effect the fawn population. and they say who carries the fawns? well the does do but who helps make the fawns? the bucks so it is basically the same. but if you can take a dry doe with no fawns basically she is past here prime and can no longer have babies. but most people know that most of the breeding is done by the small 2 points. so why not go back top either sex???
 
Colorado Oak has it right. The Central RAC meeting was held on Tuesday and discussed the big game rules, season lengths, units. There were 17 people in attendance. 12 of those were supporting UBA, which did get support of the RAC for their proposals. Talk about APATHY! All this talk on an internet site will never change anything. It doesn't even rally people.
 
>the next
>best thing to do would
>go back to either sex..
>believe it or not there
>is a lot of meat
>hunters here. they would rather
>take a big doe over
>a small 2 point anyday.

>they say who carries the
>fawns? well the does do
>but who helps make the
>fawns? the bucks so it
>is basically the same. but

No, 1 buck can service alot of does. You need 1 doe per pair/fawns for them to survive, it is NOT the same.

>if you can take a
>dry doe with no fawns
>basically she is past here
>prime and can no longer
>have babies. but most people

I doubt very many people can tell the difference in a Wet or Dry doe in the field.

>know that most of the
>breeding is done by the
>small 2 points. so why
>not go back top either
>sex???

What does being a 2pt have anything to do with? A small 2pt is a sign of maturity not genes. Every buck recorded in the Boon and Crocket scoring system was once a yearling and had a small rack. Do you feel the does should not have been bred by them because of their age? Young Age does not equal bad genes!

I dont think we have an overabundance of does currently. There is only a faction of what we used to have when I grew up here. Packout nailed it, we need to find out why fawn survival is as low as it is... until then we need all the does we got to just maintain our current status.
 
One should never quit or give up. Glad to see you posting. I'm new to this as well, eager, on fire, and hopw to effect some change.

Groundshrink's post is right we do put too much pressure on the deer hrerd and need to cut it back drastically. Doing this might help them recover.

I agree we need to stop waiting for the DWR to change things for us. We need to step up to the plate and make things happen. Put energy behind our ideas, support them, get the facts, and then get momentum and start effecting change. Sitting on the sofa or at the computer desk preaching or writing does little other than make us complainers with no initiative.

While I like the idea of a boycott for a hunt, I don't really think it would have much effect nor would it be able to rally up enough support to make it effective. I firmly beleive the way to change things is to work politically and directly with those in the position of power to effect change. This can be done by backing groups or federations that support our cause, starting your own, or working directly with these folks.

My simple posting here and e-mailing the DWR board is causing a bit of a ripple and I am getting e-mails and responses from a lot of different people (all concerned individuals). People with a lot of momentum wanting my support and wanting to talk.
 
I agree we have to get involved and start channeling tax dollars and put them to work for our causes. All in an effort to help out deer hunting in the state.
 
While I beleive that the DWR does focus on "the family hunt" and I understand its importance. We need to in act change and change our way of thinking or there will not be any deer left for "the family" to hunt.

These traditions run deep and thoughts along with tradition will have to change or we risk the continual steady decline of the herd.

Perhaps one thing to do is carve it out so you can have a general hunt only or a draw hunt only but not both.

The state needs to dramtically:
increase the number of hunting units for better management/control
limit the number of tags
shorten the overall pressure period on the deer

The hope and tradition of deer hunting for future generations depends upon it.
 
Boy, a lot of good posts have been made. Most of you are probably right in that I doubt we could get enough momentum behind a general season boycott for a year. I just thought I'd throw out the idea and see what you all thought. Most of you are also right that attending the RAC meetings and writing letters to political leaders are probably the best ways to go about making changes.

I'll comment on a couple of other things that have come up. First, I believe that doe deer are probably our most valuable mule deer resource. It only takes a few bucks to breed 100 does, so in order to increase the herds, it's vital that we protect does and subsequently their fawns from year to year.

I know someone here mentioned that we need to look at increased predator control, preventing highway fatalaties, replanting of key feeding grounds, etc.

For the life of me, I have no idea why we have a single doe hunt in this state. If some farmer is complaining about does eating his crops, then can't we look at subsidizing his losses or transplanting some of the deer away from his land? I know that would be expensive, but think of what 15 transplanted does would do to an area that is struggling with mule deer numbers. If we're constantly worrying about the mule deer decline in Utah, then why are we currently shooting even one doe in this state?

Secondly, I just want to say that I feel bad about missing the recent RAC meeting. I believe it's about time I get more involved. What bothers me so much, however, is I wonder if the RAC meetings are about the only way I can get involved.

Thinking outside the box, is the Mule Deer Foundation really stepping up to the plate and doing its share to increase mule deer numbers in Utah? Why do I never hear about anthing they're doing, yet I hear a lot about the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation? Also, I think the SFW organization is not worth any of our time. I've never seen a hunting organization that caters so much to outfitters, to the rich, and to special banquet-type tags that take so much away from the average Utah hunter.

Well, that's my .04 cents, given that I've already expressed some other ideas earlier in this thread.
 
the nice thing about this post is it has not turned into a personal bashing one.. YET.. lets try and keep it that way. now my point was shot down by a couple people here and that is cool. but 1 thing you have to remember not every area is the same. the area that dallan c hunt is probley different than the area i hunt. were i hunt when you can count well over 100 does in a weekend and not find a buck there is a problem. mabye 2 problems 1 not enough bucks.. right.. 2 to many does? right. what i meant by the 2 points breeding is after a few years when the 2 points are doing the majority of the breeding then the genes start going to hell... were so you think all those big 2 points come from?? i could be wrong but i believe they are from the dad granddad ect.. only being 2 points and this deer finally made it past its 2nd oe 3rd year but the genes are gone. the only ones left are the 2 point genes.just my thought but i still say there are to many does. hell how many deer are hit on the roads? and how many are bucks compared to does???
 
Here's an idea. Utah hired Nevada to conduct its draw. Why don't we get rid of all the DWR employees above fish cop and hire NV or CO to run the state? ;-)
 
Unfortunately what we have here is the "tragedy of the commons" --(excuse me if this's been brought up before).

This is a noble thought, but there are too many other joes ready and willing to step in and shoot the deer if you won't.

Bottom line: Everybody does it or nobody does it.


Proposal--FIRST get organized and then:

1) Wage a media campaign: picket the DWR HQ and invite the press. Have prepared statements and talking points to detail the situation and what you propose (always have a solution-- otherwise you're just whining). USE UNWANTED PRESS ATTENTION TO GET ATTENTION TO YOUR ISSUES. Chances are, other guys are sick of it too and are looking to vocalize, as well.

2) Invade the resource advisory council meetings and push your points. Be prepared with talking points.

3) Money talks (right on!)--consider SUEING the DWR. That'll get attention fast. Get informed, plenty of info for free on activist sites and they are freakin' darned effective in pushing their agendas! Check 'em out...

Lots of options out there---organize and make a battle plan...
 
If someone choses to sue the DWR, they might start with the arguement that they are selling opportunity for something that doesn't exist. Just like selling lottery tickets when all the prizes are already gone, they're selling more tags than there are animals available. That'd be about right, sell as many tags as there are bucks.
 
>If someone choses to sue the
>DWR, they might start with
>the arguement that they are
>selling opportunity for something that
>doesn't exist. Just like
>selling lottery tickets when all
>the prizes are already gone,
>they're selling more tags than
>there are animals available.
>That'd be about right, sell
>as many tags as there
>are bucks.


They are selling an Opportunity to hunt, not to harvest so it would be hard to formulate any type of suit with this in mind, expecially when the harvest odds are posted and well known ahead of time.



-DallanC
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-05 AT 12:40PM (MST)[p]I don't think the suit could be won, but it would get looked at and the publicity is what Bannock was talking about. Just like when the tree huggers hold up a timber sale in court for a couple years, they rarely win the suit.
 
Gentle men great argument,and some good idea's.
Unfortunately in Utah the DWR and RACs recognize GROUPS
such as SFW, UBA the RMEF and others. As mentioned above it will take a considerable amount of people to all say the same thing to get results.

I remember last year the central RAC was jam packed by hunters that opposed the " super convention " tag fiasco
orchestrated by SFW and other conservation groups. Most of the hunters that attended were adamantly opposed to this action but it passed anyway. The next night in the northern RAC the tables were stacked just the opposite way with SFW call in people to fill the building and show support for the SFW cause.

Point is if you want to get something done in the joke of a Utah RAC / Wildlife Board system you need to unite and present yourself as a united voice. Exactly like SFW was in the beginning before $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ got in the way.

I would urge somebody a heck of a lot smarter than what I am
to put something together for the hunters of Utah. Not the banquet fundraiser money blinded groups we now have but a group that can be a presence at the RAC system and have a voice for the majority of Utah hunters.

It is, unfortunately like Don Peay has always said " BIOLOGISTS DON'T RUN UTAH WILDLIFE POLITICIANS DO "
well now we are in the stage of whoever throws the most money at the politicians and DWR makes the rules. This needs to change
 
I agree with wiley somewhat. But, there is NO way that the anti-convention folks can cry foul about the outcome. Why?? Because only 3 or 4 had the balls to stand at the mic and state their opinion against the convention. If everyone of those against the convention had stood at the mic, said "I am against the convention." , and sat back down it may have failed.

There are not many people at the Board meetings either. The RACs are nice and all, but they are just window dressing. The real decisions are made by the Board.
 

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