Elk Committee Needs Input

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nebo12000

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The Elk Committee will start meeting in September. They will be working on the 5 year elk plan. You can contact any of the RAC members or committee members. We need as much input as possible so that the plan can reflect what the majority of the elk hunting public wants. Biologists know that it only takes 3-5 bulls per 100 cows to maintain adequate calf production. The question is though is what the public wants as far as bull/cow ratios - age class ratios.Also, do you want to increase overall herd sizes ? If you do, we need to convince all the government agencies to agree to that.
One other big issue-- Should we include in the elk counts, the elk that are on private lands and unavailable to public hunting. That would include antlerless, late season hunts where the elk are primarily on private land where pulic hunting is not allowed. Most counts are done when elk are most likely to be on private unhuntable lands. Many elk stay on private lands even during the summer months. If the elk that are on private lands are not available to public hunting should they be excluded from the elk management count numbers. There are many areas in the state where only 50 to 70% of the elk are actually available to the public hunter. Should we require that only the elk that are on huntable ( public or private but open to the public) lands be counted toward the management objective numbers for that particular unit ? If there are public elk on closed private lands, should the landowners be responsible to control or eliminate any nuisance elk.
Let me know your thoughts on these subjects. R Hansen CRAC
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-09 AT 12:30PM (MST)[p]Who is on the elk commitee?

We need to get rid of age classification. Why are all the other animals in the state managed on a male to female ratio. We need to manage elk on a bull/cow ratio.

Also I support the new season dates that the DWR is going to recommend this fall.
 
OH Man I hope the CAT is out hunting and away from his puter.
This is going to get good real quick.

Seriously I don't think we need to dump age classification we just need to let the biologists manage to them.

If I remember right 99% of the units were not just a little over but freaking miles above age class.

Get r Done CAT!!!
 
I also support all the season dates the dwr is going to recommend this fall.

+1 for bull to cow ratio
+1 for buck to doe ratio


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Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
how bout goin toe to toe with those selfrighteous landowners, cattle growers, and sheep herders. the dutton is in a choke hold thanks to those public land moochers. the dutton could hold 2000 more head of elk and easily still support those worthless stinking sheep. better yet.... letsbuy the sheep and then issue a few hundred thousand mutton tags for the dutton....

my suggestion is to quit bowing to the cattlebarons and increase elk numbers on the dutton.



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+1 for bull to cow ratio

could somebody post the proposed dates.

My proposed dates would push the archery farther back into sept. Let the muzzleloader and archers hunt togather the last two weeks of the bowhunt Then put the LE rifle dates the very end of sept, first of Oct. I would also like to see a rotating premium rifle hunt in the state that the dates would be in mid Sept.

I believe this would allow us to increase the tags significantly and give more opportunity to everyone.
 
I can't seem to find the elk committee contact info. on the utah DWR web site. Does someone have the link to there emails? I found the rac member info. and have emailed them before and feel contacting the rac members is a waste of time. So I would like to try contact the elk committee direct rather than through the RAC members.
 
As far as dates go. Start and end them on a specific date, not a specific weekend. End archery on the 17th or 18th or so, any Weapon on the 26th, and muzz on Oct 3rd or something like that? This would allow fairness and no variables on start/stop dates.

This is absolutely my only post on this thread!;-)
 
So what are the dates they are going to change that are so secretive? Every year things are reccomended, but that don't mean they are going to change anything.
 
I dont see those dates being a whole lot different than it is now. We need to have the muzzy hunt before the any weapon and the archery hunters need to hunt till at least the 20th if not later.
 
Who do we send comments to? As mentioned before the archery hunt needs to be pushed further into September, then muzzleload, then rifle.
Also what about making more general open bull units. 10,000+ hunters in the Uinta's is a little rediculous!! WE DO NOT NEED TO HAVE EVERY UNIT IN THE STATE A TROPHY UNIT!!!


->>>--Elkoholic8-->
 
Rumor that I heard was they are wanting to have the general archery elk start the same time that it has been, but then the LE archery elk will start around the 1st of Sept and go to like the 20th or somewhere around there
 
HuntinFoo,

I refuse to get in a damn pissing match over this once again. If you dont see any difference in the dates then you are a fool. It ends on the 11th this year! So the 17th or 18th would be 6 and 7 days respectively! Try to be fair, and ask for a little instead of trying to take the whole pie! I think it needs to be FAIR. Not your way, not my way, just FAIR.
 
Yes their would be quite a difference this year but in a year or two the dates should bump back a week, and then it will be about the same. I just think it is crap that a guy waites 10+ years for an archery tag and has very little chance the call a bull in because the hunt ends about 2 days after the ru starts. I talke to a ton of limited entry archery elk hunters and most have a real hard time getting the bulls interested in calls. How does the dwr expect a guy to have a chance at a mature bull. I dont know for sure so dont hold me to it but what I would guess from what I have seen archery success is around 20% and any weapon is 80%+, I think we can afford t even things out and make it fair. Even if the any weapon hunt started as late as October 1st I think the success would still be 70%+. Most the areas I am familiar with the best dates are the last few of sept. and the first few of Oct. anyway. So why dont we give the archers a chance, and the muzzys a chance before everything is shot up.
 
HF,

I agree it is not fair. I would not want a archery tag with 1000's of spike guys either. I also believe a more fair way is to end it on the 18th. That gives you those days annually, not every 7th year or however it works. I dont buy the hunt ends 2 days after the rut. Guys are killing bulls right now. Utah bulls dont call in late Sept any better than early Sept on the units I have hunted. I think it is about adapting. On the Any Weapon if you go into it trying to call you are screwed. Every bull has been educated long before the Any Weapon starts.

I dont want to argue this any more. I have 2 more years to wait and I have 0 points. The guys with points need to figure it out not me. I just tossed one idea out there.
 
As many know, I really dislike age classification as the most important part of the management equation. While age classification should be part of the equation, it shoudl not be the most important part. The way the DWR is using elk age classifications will be better, but it takes some time to implement. I am sure the elk committee will see what the DWR has put in place and I bet they will like it. Every group present when we were shown how the DWR issues bull tags liked the idea. Maybe some have flip-flopped.

Best of luck with the meetings. The last elk committee ended in an ugly manner.

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www.sagebasin.com
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ktc
I agree the set date thing would help a lot, so it isnt a few good years and a few bad, and the 18th would be better that most other years. I just want to see something done I prefer hunting with a bow or muzzy and have enough points to draw some of these hunts and not too far behind a few others. I just dont want to blow 10+ years of building point because they are not rutting enough to bring them in or because the heards have been picked through. A rifle hunter can pick a bull off at 300 or 400 yards, they dont need them to come in close to be succesfull. I guess we both agree that something needs to be done, but have a little bit different idea exactly what needs to be done.
 
I never get tired of hearing people complaining that they drew an archery elk tag and the dates suck.

If you want to hunt on Sept 18th, Put in for the ANY WEAPON tags.

Any weapon means you can use you bow....

I know it takes more years to draw, but thats the price you pay for the better dates.
 
elkantlers,

That is another way to put it. I just wasnt brave enought to say it!;-)

Seriously, I like Utah elk. Could they do it in a manner that would satisfy everyone a little more? Absolutely. I think the muzz hunt is going to be good this year? The archery has started off very good.

Okay, I will let you guys have at it now!
 
KTC, I have 16 points for elk. Other than a few select hunts I could draw most any unit. When I draw, probably next year, I want the hunt dates to stay the same. I want to be able to use my rifle if I choose. I will probably use my muzzleloader during the any weapon hunt, but if that doesn't work out I want the option to use my rifle. I think seventeen years of applying for the tag gives me the right to have the best dates to hunt and to be able to use what ever weapon I feel like.

Most of the people wanting to change the dates for the archery hunt have probably already had one or two archery elk tags or had a deer and antelope tag.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-09 AT 08:45PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-09 AT 08:45?PM (MST)

>I think seventeen years of
>applying for the tag gives
>me the right to have
>the best dates to hunt
>and to be able to
>use what ever weapon I
>feel like.
>

That attitude is the reason for alot of the problem's in Utah.
Everyone in Utah thinks that they have "right's".

Hunting is a privledge and a management tool. We need to get rid of that attitude and start managing our herds with "common sense" and science. I say down with the "me" attitude.
 
elkantlers,
FYI, Utah is the ONLY state that hunts elk in the middle of the rut with a rifle. I make a living during the fall shooting elk during the rut with a rifle and I would like to see the rifle dates moved. It's not just the bowhunters. I am a bowhunter by the way and ktc is till my friend, so he doesn't hate all bowhunters. Just the ones that wine all the time.:D


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
The LE archery hunt needs to start September 1st, and go until september 21st. Then start the muzzeloader hunt the 22nd, and go until about the 31st. Then start the rifle hunt the 1st of october until about the 7th or so. This way it is FAIR for everyone. All three hunts are catching apart of the rut. I do think the muzzeloader hunt should be before the any weapon hunt. Also the state needs to do something about the general spike hunt, LE archery hunters should not have to wait 10 years to draw a tag, and have to compete with 1000 other hunters. If everyone wants to make it fair, then put the general rifle spike hunt the same time as the LE any weapon hunt, and lets see how far that goes!
As for the age class of the bulls, I think the dwr needs to go away from that. Most hunters would love to kill a 8 year old 380-390 bull than to kill a 5 year old 340-350 bull!
 
as I am not from utah and have never hunted your state take this with a grain of salt. I for one have noticed the elk tend to rut from mid sept thru first week of oct. and agree with the dates rotorhead suggested. as for the subject of elk on private land, no they should not be counted if the general public has no access to them. make the landowners hunt their own lands and that will cure some of that! and I don't remember who the selfish guy was, but you don't have anymore "rights" than the guy who draws his first year! you are the type of guy that gets under my skin more than any other! I bet you already have "your" bull picked out don't you?
 
hornhunter - if you get a landowner tag whether it be through the public lottery draw or buying one direct from the landowner, the only property you can hunt in Utah is the private property that the tag is issued for. Utah is NOT like Colorado when it comes to landowner vouchers. Just FYI.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
thanks awlb, that's good you guys do that for your elk, maybe im thinking of deer?
 
It applies to all game hunted on a Cooperative Wildlife Management Unit (CWMU). The tag is good only on the property which it's issued for. I wish Colorado would do that as well. It would sure make buying a Colorado LO voucher a better deal.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
AWLB,

Thanks. I like bow hunters generally. The ones who go out know what the dates are and give it hell. I feel bad when they bust their butt and dont connect. However, it is a tougher deal and it is low rate of success. Blaming the dates are no excuse. Do the Any Weapon if the dates are wrong. Do I think starting/ending on a specific date would give a more consistant hunt each year? Absolutely. It could be done without upsetting the apple cart a whole lot?
 
awlb we let the elk landowner elk hunters go wherever they want in nm as well and I agree 100% what do you guys think the true "huntable" numbers are there? you guys already have enough problems getting tags there, I actually see that hurting you guys.
ktc I thought you were done posting on this one? lol
 
Utah landowner tags in limited entry units are good unit wide. They are not specific to the landowner's property. Now, antlerless depredation (landowner) tags are only good on the private property for which they were issued.

In full disclosure, I have already drawn a Utah limited entry elk tag. I think that Utah made a few mistakes when they first started their system.

The first mistake is the UDWR was never allowed to manage units to their age objective. A unit that was supposed to have 5 year old bulls was really averaging 7 year olds. That is a huge difference in the antler size brought off a unit. This folly brought many hunters to a higher expectation that never should have been reality. Some feel that they have been puting in for xx years so they should have the right to shoot a xxx" bull. In reality they should be glad they didn't draw in 1997, before the Utah herds really took off.

The second folly was having the rifle hunt in the middle of the rut. How can a guy put in for xx years and see others hunt bugling bulls, then they tell him you will be hunting after the rut? Good luck on that issue.

Points are another issue. It is tough to say, but if people had to have chosen between a point or hunting would they really have a 40 year wait to draw?

There is no easy solution to the bull problem and drawing a permit in Utah. There will be a huge fallout if they change any part of the current structure. The sad truth is Utah limited entry hunters have come to expect 100% success during the rut, and we all know that can't happen without truley limiting permit numbers and lengthening the wait to draw.

As for private landowners, most I know have a love-hate relationship with the elk. They love having them on their lands, yet they hate fixing fence, dealing with trespassers, and elk eating feed. I'd wager the majority would rather have the elk than deal with hunters whom they do not know. The UDWR should issue cow permits through the draws if they are having problems killing cows off these lands.

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
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the problem I see is that noone from utah knows what in the heck their talking about! lmao sorry had to! your right packout there really is no way to please everyone. ok off subject but one thing that chaps me is why can I put in for every species as a nr and the residents can't? that's one thing you should be just livid about.
 
So Packout, you're telling me that if I have a CWMU permit I can hunt anywhere on the LE unit that it sits in? I know 2 guys that would beg to differ on that one. Both got hefty tickets for hunting an area they were not permitted for. Luckily they hadn't shot anything yet. Both had CWMU permits on a specific LE unit in Utah and were hunting outside the boundaries BUT within the boundaries of the LE unit. AGAINST THE LAW!!!!! Now, that being said, I think you are right when it comes to just a permit given to the landowner themselves in situations that don't involve a CWMU. Those are rare and I am not 100% sure of the regulations there. I don't deal with those permits. I do however deal with CWMU permits so I'm not just blowing smoke.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-09 AT 06:55PM (MST)[p]Jim, I thought Hornhunter asked about Landowner tags. Landowner tags are given to landowner associations within specific limited entry units and are good unit wide. Book Cliffs, Pahvant, Diamond Mtn, Pauns, SW Des, etc all have landowner bull/buck tags which can be used unit wide. CWMUs are a whole different story and you are right about them. They are like a small limited entry unit. I do sit on the Committee for the UDWR which deals with landowner tags/issues. So I kind of know what I am talking about, kind of. haha I didn't mean to offend, just clarify. You should stop by my shop one of these days when you make it up by AmFork. I come across much better in person than in writting.

Edit to clarify: Landowner Rule: http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules/R657-43.php
CWMU Rule: http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules/R657-37.php

Hornhunter247-- As for applying for all species..... well that is just plain wrong. If Utah has 50,000 limited entry applicants, why in the world would anyone want to compete with every other applicant? Yeah, you get to apply for every species, but it costs you $10 per and your odds of drawing any tag will go even lower, extremely lower. Last year was the first year non-residents could apply for all species and nonresident applicants went from 4,300 to 8,000 just for limited entry deer. I'd wager resident odds would be 3-4x worse.

Ok-- back on topic. IF elk do compete with deer (as claimed by many biologists) then why should Utah increase elk numbers? MDF has no seat at the table, which I think is interesting.....

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
-------------------------
 
Jim-
That is excatly right...a CWMU is good ONLY on that specified property, it is NOT a "tresspass permit" per say.

If someone draws the Alton unit in the Pausagunt, they can NOT hunt the unit outside the Alton. (example)

Unless something has changed that i'm not aware of......... ;-)






48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
packout I appreciate explaining that. I was getting confused for a min there. I was almost on the phone to st george to chew a utard butt! lol and you can't argue those reasons for allowing nr to apply across the board!
 
No offense here Packout! We were talking about 2 separate things. I have heard about those landowner vouchers but have never dealt with them before. I may be wrong (go figure) but wasn't the Skoronski bull killed with a "landowner voucher" down on the Books?

Anyway, In a perfect world it would be nice to increase the elk numbers but with the deer numbers the way they are right now I don't think we can afford to unless we are bound and determined to have every elk in the top ten in all categories come from Utah. If the DWR keeps going in the direction they are (decreasing the age class and trophy quantity) then I would just as soon see them concentrate a little more on deer. The very first thing they need to do is get that rifle hunt out of the rut. Seriously, I don't care who you are, if you can't shoot a bull on a LE hunt here in Utah it's either because #1-you were too damn picky (me) or #2-You're blind, have no legs and don't own a gun. It's a shoot fellas if you just want to kill a bull. I would like to see the dates change a bit. That would give more opportunity and at the same time keep the success ratio about the same.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Landowner vouchers are good in the entire unit....just like the Skoronski bull, yes :)

Totally seperate tag than a CWMU.





48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
More of a question than an input.......


It says if you do not apply for a species for 2 consecutive years---you will lose your points on those not applied for species....

So would that not mean yo have to go every other year .... deer this year---first year and elk next year---second year......or you would loose your elk points by doing deer 2 years in a row?

That is screwy------ya can only do 1 of each LE/OIL a year....

Robb
 
since we are talking about CWMU's, there is a little something i found out recently that pissed me off some.

how is it that a lot CWMU's have public property within there boundaries that is closed to public hunting, in an otherwise general tag area?

that chit ain't right IMO.
 
If they do have blm or forrest that is land locked they are required to give out more public permits based on the amount of acreage. That's how they try to balance that. It may not be right but imagine trying to police that nightmare during hunting season. You know somebody would be hunting where they aren't supposed to. It would be an access nightmare. But I understand your frustration.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
What!? how come we havent heard from PRO on this subject? He must be mowin lawns tryin to make 10K before tomorrow.

Laters I'm goin hunting
--------------------------------------

"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
PleaseDear
It says that if you apply for one of the bucks or bulls (deer, elk, antelope) without skipping 2 years you will retain your points for all of the bucks or bulls. And the same in the OIL tags.
 
OIL= once in a lifetime

AWLB, is it just landlocked blm/forrest and state? or is there corner issues also?

I admit i was blissfully ignorant of this until a few weeks ago. there is a piece of state land that is landlocked on a CWMU i always wanted to get too, but short of hiring a chopper it aint gonna happen. so i guess if it is landlocked, the inclusion into the CWMU makes more sense , still aint a fan of it tho!
 
Mike I agree with what you said about age classifications.
I still honestly believe that under the current plan it worked.
It would have worked even better if sportsmen would let the biologists manage to the targets of the plan.

I'll bring this up and see how it goes.
 
>What are these new dates that
>DWR is porposing? Are
>they on the DWR website?
>

Haven't seen these on the DWR site yet but as far as I know this is still the latest proposal - http://bit.ly/YxS0y
 
RedDog - it's my understanding that it's only landlocked blm.forrest land. If there is direct public access it can't be included in the CWMU. I guess the way I read it is if you have to cross private land (even if it's only a foot) then it's considered land locked. I'm not sure how many of the CWMU's are like that but I would say that most are continguous acres and don't have that issue to deal with. Thank goodness that the CWMU's that I hunt don't have that problem. I hope that makes sense.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Will someone let us know who exactly we can send comments to?

Its been my understanding the division is going to propose option 2 for the dates. They want to try for 2010 for the changes.
 
I will be attending the elk committee meeting. I have a list of the members. I have tried to copy the list to this forum but have been unable to. You can send your comments to me for now to
[email protected] or p.m. me here.
I would still like to know if elk that are on private land and not available to public hunting decreases your hunting opportunity. Does the DWR need to adjust population management objectives by factoring in the number of elk that are not available to tag holders. Should the DWR manage and count resident elk on private grounds seperately from those on public grounds ? Let me know.
 
Wisconsin tried the earn a buck technique. You must shoot an antlerless animal before you shoot an antlered animal. This only takes place in units with extremely high populations and mostly unaccesable private land. It ticked a lot of hunters off but is effective. They also sold a ton of antlerless tags at a reduced cost of $2.
 
What the heck is wrong with our elk herds????????? We are producing more trophy bulls than any state out there. We have great herds that increase every year in size. People sit here and cry about the elk, when we have tons of stuggling deer populations throughout the state. Our elk management is fine, leave it alone and start looking at deer options.
 
Can I ask who came up with the proposed hunt dates? It is hard enough to hunt with a bow and be successfull, so why would anyone propose a 10 day LE archery elk hunt? If they are going to do that then they should give the LE any weapon elk hunters a three day hunt! Also why in the world would you put the LE archery, and muzzeloader hunts the same time? I am sure the DWR could come up with something a little better than this! As I posted earlier why not start the LE archery hunt Sep 1st. through the 21st. Then start LE muzzeloader hunt Sep. 22nd through Sept. 31st. Then the LE any weapon hunt Oct 1st. through Oct 10th. That way everyone is getting a piece of the rut. That still gives the archery hunters three weeks to hunt, it gives the muzzeloader hunters a great hunt, and the any weapon hunters still get to hunt during part of the rut. The any weapon hunters still have a great chance at a nice bull, because they can shoot from 400 yards!
 
Why change the dates at all? I don't see the LE archery elk hunts going undersubscribed. There must be plenty of people willing to hunt in the dates already set.
Plus it now takes <10 years to draw alot units for archery. You change the dates and that is going to increase dramatically.

And, like I said earlier anyone that wants to hunt the middle of september with their archery equipment only needs to draw an ANY weapon tag.
 
Why does Utah do a 5 Year Elk Plan every year?

I say kill every last one of the stinky bastards. Might give us something else to talk about every fall?

elkantlers I am on your side. My opinion dont count though.
 
I don't have a problem with the archery elk hunt the way it is! The only thing I wish they would at least do is maybe move it back a week like it was! I do think we need to change up the general spike hunt a little bit so they are not pushing the bigger bulls around while hunters are trying to hunt them.
I do have a problem though with them trying to change the LE archery hunt to a ten day hunt! The success rates on these hunts are already in the 30-40% rates. Is the DWR trying to make the success rates in the 15-20% rates, and maybe even less?
I was just stating if they are going to change dates, then maybe look at something a little more realistic!
 
AWHOLELOTTABULL and Reddog

The BLM and Forest Service land that CWMU's post do not have to be landlocked!
If you research you will see that many CWMU's post easily accessable public land. We found this out many years ago on the Paunsagaunt. The Heatons post a lot of BLM land right next to a dirt road that is very accessable to the public.
I don't like it one bit. I don't care what they do on their own land but they shouldn't be able to keep the public off of public land for their own personal gain.
CWMU's SHOULD CONSIST OF PRIVATE LAND ONLY!
 
I would rather see the dates stay the same as they currently are.

I do not like any of the Option idea's listed......

Plus I like the idea of an actual 'Date' start and finish verse the 3rd saturday or 2nd wednesday gig.....

Reads like you guys that have been crying to be more like Arizona hunt dates are having an influence.......short bow hunts, late rifle hunts and even later mzzy elk hunts.....Kudo's?

Robb
 
All I can say is AMEN to what HJB, elkantlers and PleaseDear has to say on the subject. If it aint broke don't fix it.
 
Hahahahaha! That is some funny stuff! Which bow hunter put that POS together? Ya think 35 days is enough? Sorry bow guys, most of you I like, it is the guys who think everyone else can pack sand I dont like.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-03-09 AT 09:47AM (MST)[p]Attended the first Elk Committee mtg. Very interesting. Talked mainly about the questions that will be sent out to elk hunters in regards to their feelings and experiences in regards to elk hunting. BIG ISSUE-- Quality vs. quantity. More opportunity to hunt bulls (300-320 class bulls 4-6 yr old) vs being able to hunt 1 or 2 times for (340-360+ class bulls 7+ yrs old)
It was brought up that there is still room under the statewide elk population objective (80,000)for more elk. The question is where. It seems that most landowners are already involved and most would be fine with more elk but those that are Federal or State land permitees (grazing) are limited by those agencies as to the number of elk they will allow. Hopefully, there will be some areas that they can come to an agreement to increase herd sizes and thus increase more opportunity. Colorado harvests 60,000 elk each year! The quality of elk in Utah is 2nd to none-- for now anyway.We are considered by other states as the Nodstrom of elk and they are the Walmart of elk.
--interesting perceptions.
Season dates will be a big issue, as well as elk numbers on private lands that are unavailable to the public -- how should they be counted in the population objective for any one unit. Is it fair to have only 60 - 80% of the elk available for public hunting and yet be at the population objective which requires killing more antlerless elk on the areas accessible to the public? Also, season dates will be a big issue also.Anyway, hope you will let your feelings known to committee members.
 

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