LE Elk Hunting Changes

bowhunt

bowhunt

Long Time Member
Messages
3,191
Most of us realize that our kids will never hunt Big Bulls in Utah.
With the current levels of tags and tag allocations it just simply will not happen.
I am ok with me never hunting big bulls in Utah again, but I would like to see my kids have the chance.
With that said I have put some time into thinking about what can be done. I have come up with 2 possible solutions, but will only post one for now.

Goal of Proposal

1: Keep harvest levels at the current rate.
2: Keep the Rifle hunts during the premium time.
3: Only make changes on 2-3 units and evaluate success.
4. Give more opportunity for hunting/get people out of the pool.

Here we go.

The Wasatch Unit currently offers the following tags:

-Archery 104 tags harvest success of 33% or 34 bulls
-Rifle 239 tags harvest success of 95% or 227 bulls
-Muzz 62 tags harvest success of 70% or 44 bulls

Total harvest of 305 mature bulls per year.
Total hunters leaving the pool of applicants 405 per year.

Proposal:
-Archery 400 tags harvest success of 30% or 120 bulls
-Rifle 150 tags harvest success of 95% or 142 bulls
-Muzz 62 tags harvest success of 70% or 42 bulls

Total harvest of 305 mature bulls per year
Total hunters leaving the pool of applicants 610 or 205 more than before.


Apply this math to the Manti Unit:
Currently:
Archery 78 tags
Rifle early and late 179 tags
Muzz 11 tags

Proposed:
Archery 250 tags
Rifle early and late 125 tags
Muzz 11 tags

Total hunters leaving the pool of applicants 386 or 118 more than before.

By making these adjustments, on just 2 units, we could take an additional 323 people out of the applicant pool per year.

Cons:
-Fewer Rifle tags, when the majority of people want to hunt with a rifle.
-Crowding during the archery hunt, notice I dropped the success by 3 points
-Muzz hunters still have limited opportunity

Pros:
-More total opportunity each year
-More people moving through the bonus pool
-Rifle hunt is still a PREMIUM HUNT
-There is hope


Thoughts?
 
I like the idea of opening up the opportunity for more people to hunt. I would rather see a few less archery tags and a few more muzzle loader tags. Over all I like the proposal.

Dillon
 
I also like the idea. It would help move people through the pool faster for primitive weapons, especially if there were a few more tags for muzzleloader. Of course I like it because i am an archery hunter. But it would slow down and back up the point pool for the rifle hunters. As for overcrowding in archery, I would rather have mutiple opportunities over my lifetime with added pressure than hunt them once or maybe twice with less limited entry hunters around.
 
That would be fine with me. But I dont think it would sit well with the rifle hunters they would cry for days. Utah could fix a lot of problems with points if they would push the rifle hunt into October like every other State. Give more archery tags with the dates in September odds will go up some but not a ton. By moving the rifle hunt into october odds will go down some and bigger bulls will not be as easy to kill like they are now. Place the muzzle loader hunt 10 days in the middle of the archery hunt so for 10 days they hunt together.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-09 AT 04:05PM (MST)[p]I like it but the rifle hunters would throw a fit, it would move more hunters through and I would definetly hunt with my bow from here on out for elk. Only thing is they need to give the archers the prime rut time and let the rifle hunters have the last of the rut, while then move the Muzz hunt to what is called the late hunt now and I think everyone would be happy, of course with that many archers out hunting elk it could scatter them out to where the rifle hunters success rate would drop, of course they have the advantage of being able to make those long shots where archers do need to get close, the muzz hunters would be able to hunt after the elk settle down a little but they would be bachlored up again which isn't that bad.
 
Not much different than PRO's I400. According to your plan, the majority of hunters leaving the pool are archers, but the majority of applicants are rifle hunters. This proposal just makes it possible for an archer to draw every ten years and makes the rifle hunt a once, or nonce (I know that isn't a word) in a lifetime. Why would the majority of hunters (rifle) want this? Why are your kids more important than mine? I would also like to see my sons draw elk tags in their lifetime. But your proposal makes this much more difficult than the current system.

How about we give all tags to rifle hunters? This will clear out the pool the fastest, is that what we all want? I don't think so. Your proposal only clears out the archery pool faster and makes the rifle pool even slower. This is not best for all; but only best for archers. I didn't come up with the current plan, just keep that in mind. I just have to play the cards that I've been dealt. Everyone that applies for LE elk permits, knew the game and the odds before they starting applying. I knew the rifle odds were very high when I started putting in. I also knew that the rifle hunt and not the bow hunt were in the rut. I also knew that the give a higher percentage of tags to rifle hunters than they do archery or muzzy hunters.

I'm not crying, just stating an alternate opinion to yours. Can we please keep this an adult conversation. You had to know that not everyone was going to agree with your plan.
 
The only way to move people through the system would be to increase tags for all three hunts. But then the quality of the hunts goes down. I personally would rather hunt every 10 years than go for a monster once in my life or never. I think that they need to open up some of the LE to more people and keep 1 or 2 at the current or less #s for those that want 400+ bulls. I don't care if they move the dates. I just want to be able to hunt a elk larger than a spike.
 
Good Comments Rutnelk.

My kids are not more important. In fact I am sure they want to Rifle hunt, not bowhunt.

I am assuming people may switch over and start putting in for archery when they see there is actually a chance at being able to get a tag. Thus clearing out all applicants. Giving your kids a better chance of drawing.

If your kids are under 18, they wont draw a rifle tag, we need to do something to breath some hope into the system and NOT kill all the bulls.

Another option would be: Change the dates of the rifle hunt, and lower the odds of success.

Or just keep it how it is, and most will never draw.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-09 AT 05:25PM (MST)[p]I took the elk survey and I'm sorry but the DWR is flat out catering to the Rifle hunters. I can't blame them for doing this on their end because it is where they make their money. I can blame them and be upset about it on my end because it isn't fair to the public who's resource it is they are managing. NO OTHER STATE has rifle hunts during the rut. It's flat out rediculous. I helped a friend out on the wasatch with a Muzzy hunt and called his bull into 25 yards. The success rates are off the charts for rifle and because of that it is one of the most sought after states to hunt. I am having a hard time swallowing the fact that my boys will never enjoy the hunting opportunities that I had as a kid, no matter what the changes are. It sucks any way you slice it. Every group will try to favor themselves in hunt dates and I don't see very many people who are really looking at the interests of the common good and the overall big picture. The only ones winning are Private land owners (CWMU's), Rifle hunters, and the DWR. I know that I sound like I am against rifle hunters....and believe me I am not because I still own one and love to hunt with it. I just think that it is rediculous to have the ability to call an elk into 30 yards with a weapon that can shoot accuratly up to 300 yards...and much further with the right set up. Give the time to the primitive weapons where the success rates are lower and you can increase opportunity and then let the rifle hunters go after them.
 
It's not a rifle hunt, it's and any weapon hunt. You can use a bow, pistol, rifle or a muzzleloader. during the any weapon hunt.
 
I would like to see the archery hunt start the last sat of august go until sep 19th then have muzzy hunt start sep 20 and then rifle sep 30 just got back off the wasatch and those bulls are very vocal.My friend just harvested a 310 bull at 16 yards and had 4 other chances to harvest bulls so the rifle hunt would not suffer kicking it back.They are herded up well we seen alot of herd bulls.dont mind those #s yore taking about
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-09 AT 05:59PM (MST)[p]I'd be all for it but I'd like to see the rifle tags pushed out of the rut into october where they should be. You could then offer more rifle tags than you proposed, pushing even more hunters through the system.
Have the archery hunt start later and run through the rut followed by Muzz before rifle.
 
The LE archery guys hunt with spike hunters in Aug. So the LE rifle(anyweapon) guys should have to hunt with the spike hunters in Oct. Just my thought.
 
OK, if you take a look at the bonus point odds for the Wasatch (you chose the unit), everyone in the archery pool with 7 points or more drew this year! In my book thems pretty good odds. What more do you want? People can see the odds and they still put in for the rifle hunt. They vote with their money and their precious bonus points. The vast majority of people like it like it is.

I know it sucks to think you may never draw but when my waiting period is up I'm back in the elk game. If I want to hunt dinks, that's what Colorado is for (sorry CO, but it is what it is).

I think you're looking at the wrong end of the equation. We need to increase the elk herds so we can increase tags. We can carry a lot more elk than we currently do. We need to put some incentives for grazers to leave more feed. We need the conservation organizations (meaning us) to put up the money to lock up winter range from development and create reserves like Harware Ranch, etc. to increase the herds. More elk=more tags, then you can fight about who gets to hunt in September.

HAZMAT

www.muddyroad.net
 
Hazmat,

The vast majority DO NOT like it how it is.

But I like the idea of increasing the herds, however since we are killing the crap out of cows that tells me no one is willing to have more elk
 
Bowhunt the easiest way to accomplish the tag problem is moving the dates for the rifle... I dont get it how they get the easiest weapon, and the easiest season. I dont care who you are a 98 percent success rate on any hunt is out of control, and you cant issue more tags cause the success rates are so high, so its pretty simple, lower success rates which means moving the rifle hunt out of the rut. Also they could do what NV does and offer 1-3 units a few tags during the rut and let those that are hell bent on hunting with a rifle in the rut compete for them, AZ is a perfect example of how to do it. I mean for hells sake they offer 500 tags on Unit 10 for the rifle hunt, yet each year we ooh and ahh over all the giant bulls they pull off of there!!!!!! I was on the Panguitch this year helping a buddy hunt with his muzz and was thinking how tough it would be hunting that unit in October with a rifle. But if you want the easiest weapon you should hunt the hardest season.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-09 AT 10:53PM (MST)[p]there are units that can be drawn with 5 points, why dont you re-do guys hunt them? if its all about opportunity, its there. you just want the heart of the watermelon and dont want to wait for it.

the best units will wind up like them if you guys have your way.
 
Reddog,

If you look at the proposal...then you will realize that the same number of elk are killed, so the units will not get worse.

The units that take 5 points to draw will take 10 points in 5 years...thus those that are just getting in will NEVER draw.
 
That is the biggest problem....I am worried about my kids!!!! They will most likely not draw a tag EVER in the state of Utah the way it currently sits. That is just wrong to grow up in a state with such great hunting opportunity and not be able to have a chance to take advantage of it. Now I know that I can really put the time and effort into getting deep enough with them to have some opportunity at a branch antler bull. The problem is that it will not be during the rut and it won't be near the experience of a LE tag. There needs to be a way for everyone to have the opportunity of drawing a tag. The crazy bit is that 10 years ago....if any of us had a chance at a 350 bull we would have done anything for that.....all of a sudden if it isn't 390 or better it's not a nice bull. Sorry to tell most of you but the chances of you taking a 400 class bull even now are not good. If I see a 340 or so class bull on any unit...it's hitting the dirt....if I can hold still long enough to do so : ) The quality can still be great and increase opportunity. The key lies in the success rates. Right now the rifle hunt success rates are just STUPID!!!! I call that kind of success rate SHOOTING not hunting. Hunting...if I remember right from my hunters safety is when the animal has a fair chance to escape while being chased. Rifle hunting during the Rut is not fair chase in my book. I won't lie...I am an archery hunter by trade...but I am putting in for Rifle hunts for Elk....only because if I am only going to draw one tag, I am not going to waste that opportunity. If there were more chances at drawing a tag....I would 100% go archery...especially during the rut knowing that I could very easily eat Tag Soup. If people had more than one chance at drawing a tag I think it would change application behavior. You would see more people bailing out of the rifle option and going with more primitive weapon choices. DWR...if you are listening....I don't know very many people that agree with hunting Elk with a Rifle during the Rut. In fact....someone who knows how....post a survey...let's see if I am wrong. Those in Favor or hunting during the Rut with a rifle vs not in favor.
 
I know that all this type of website chatter will do nothing to change anything but it is nice to ponder.

I personally do not want a huge crowd of hunters in the same unit and dates when I draw again.

I feel that the more tags given out the more unpleasant the over all hunt experience will be as the crowd control will almost equal a General OTC type hunt crowd.

I realy do not care if the rifle hunt is during the 'rut' type dates.
I can bow hunt during the very same 'rut' dates if I apply for and draw the 'rut' dates Any Weapon tag.

It is enjoyable to read others thoughts and important desires on these type of Hypothetical threads.

Some real good logic and thoughts for sure.

Robb
 
bowhunt, if you've been paying attention those easy to draw units have been the same for years, and if you are just after a bull for your kids, they have excellent success rates. so again, if opportunity is what you guys are after???

I have been putting in for late hunts the past few years so I can draw before opportunists get their way. I would happily wait the 5 years or so more that it would take me to draw an early hunt, but sadly I don't believe we will have the hunting like we have now, for obvious reasons.

if you look at the # of hunters with points, there is no way you can issue enough tags to move that mass through without killing quality.

so say you double tags, then you will have a mere 10 year wait + the 5 year waiting period so you can hunt rag horns. sadly, not everyone can hunt big bulls, there aint enough of them. but the opportunity is there for kids if you want it.(general tags, spike tags, easy to draw LE tags) does a kid have to start off by shooting a 330+ bull?
 
Good comments Red,
No kids do not have to start off shooting big bulls, but it would be nice for them to have a chance SOME day.

You want to shoot a big elk right? Why is anyone different than you.

Why don't you go be happy with Spike, Cow, and Any Bull Units?

Again, if you look at what I propose, it will NOT kill more bulls. So the quality will stay the same.

Anyway, Like PleaseDeer said, fun to think about, nothing will change. We are going to be left to never draw tags.
 
Get it figured out. Most people don't like the way it is right now. Change it, and the other half will be complaining. Utah will never get it figured out. They are way behind and will never catch up. My advice would be, apply in every other state out there. At lest that way your kids will have a chance of drawing a tag someday.
By giving more tags it will only hurt the populations and the quality of the animals hunted. Utah makes it way to easy for everyone to apply. Everyone puts their whole damn family in, hoping to draw a tag.
It's all STUPID.
 
Whats the VALUE of the elks tags if the hunt is taken out of the rut?? You guys are going to have to compete with the 500 lb gorrilla. The high dollar hunter will be pissed. LOL
 
This whole thread is a wast of time when you see what the division new proposal is going to be this fall. It also is rumored to be good with the wildlife board. So its a shoe in for change coming in 2010.

The division is finally thinking with their heads instead of their pocket books.

Now it they can get rid of the gay spike tags I would be forever happy!

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
More tags DOES NOT = MORE DEAD ELK

so all you who don't understand success rate pay attention. You give out more tags, even rifle, but with a lower success rate hunt so the same number of elk killed every year!!! DOES NOT AFFECT HERD NUMBERS (would probably produce bigger elk since they aren't cherry picked in the rut)
 
Thanks Wilderness!
I am glad someone gets it. Sounds like we may have something close to what we want soon anyway.
 
>I know that all this type
>of website chatter will do
>nothing to change anything but
>it is nice to ponder.
>
>
>I personally do not want a
>huge crowd of hunters in
>the same unit and dates
>when I draw again.
>
>I feel that the more tags
>given out the more unpleasant
>the over all hunt experience
>will be as the crowd
>control will almost equal a
>General OTC type hunt crowd.
>
>
>I realy do not care if
>the rifle hunt is during
>the 'rut' type dates.
>I can bow hunt during the
>very same 'rut' dates if
>I apply for and draw
>the 'rut' dates Any Weapon
>tag.
>
>It is enjoyable to read others
>thoughts and important desires on
>these type of Hypothetical threads.
>
>
>Some real good logic and thoughts
>for sure.
>
>Robb

+1!!!!
The only people i see complaining are the archers and they complain about not being able to hunt during the rut with their bows.
Aren't the rut hunts called "any weapon" for a reason??
Why not put in for those and use your bows?
Flooding the september rut hunts by quadrupeling the archers is NOT going to be a good thing, just wait and read the negative posts about it next year.
These forums are already riddled with compalints about multiple trailcams over one wallow.........


48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-09
>AT 12:20?PM (MST)
>
>SW whats their proposals?

sorry I dont want to post it. It will be coming out this fall so Id say attend your rac's and watch it get passed.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
The reason bow hunters don't bow hunt during any weapon hunts is because they waited 20 years to get the tag and are not going to enjoy a hobby to pass on a monster bull.

Limit spike tags at least, they are ridiculous. Lots of opportunity to hunt, but a nightmare on the mountain.

No quota on archery is a joke too.

Dillon
 
I'm gonna take some heat for this.... Everytime I read the elk forum I see where archers are pizzed because the rifle hunters are getting to hunt during the rut? I don't disagree for a minute that its easier to kill one with a rifle than a bow. I don't hunt with a bow and its because I don't desire to hunt with one. I do like muzzy's and rifles. I keep hearing: give archery more tags...increase opportunity...I have to admit there is a pretty good amount of greed in that thinking. What if I were to propose we give archers 1 1/2 weeks to kill their bull and split archery into two seasons? That would make the flow go better....get people through the system faster.....heck I'd even propose they have the second season where rifle is now and bump rifle into late Sept 1st of Oct. If I were to start that...there'd be a whole lot of archers pizzed. C'mon you guys may not have the premium time of the rut depending on the year, but you have 3 times as long of a hunt. Archers also have all fall to kill there deer on these extended season hunts. I don't say one thing about that. But if you start trying to take away from rifle hunters its gonna bite you because like it or not.....they are the majority. Do I agree with everything the way it is right now? Heck no but I like to hunt when the elk are bugling as well so be careful what you propose. I would hate to see any of us lose opportunity. It might be bent but lets not break it :) Like I said on another thread....we are in this together.
 
"The reason bow hunters don't bow hunt during any weapon hunts is because they waited 20 years to get the tag and are not going to enjoy a hobby to pass on a monster bull."

Not sure i follow here.....
Why would they pass on a monster bull during the rut if they choose to hunt with a bow?

If i was a die hard archer and waited 20 years for a chance to kill a monster bull on a LE unit, i certainly don't see an issue with putting in for the "any weapon" rut season as it is now???








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
I usually don't get into the politic here but I have an idea. Maybe this things been beaten before, if so, you can just ignore this post. Anyhow, I agree with many about moving the any-weapon hunt out of the rut and that we need to find a way to make the pipeline move along a little faster. Like I said, maybe these ideas have been throw around before but I can't read every post on here :) What if the bonus point fee was increased (both residents and non-residents)? I'm not a rich man but I would pay $50?? each year for the point if it meant I had better draw odds on LE Elk. I think it is too easy for everyone and their grandma's dog to put in now. If we raised the point fee the DWR would have more money and I think fewer people would apply. IMHO Secondly, what if your points were purged if you did not apply ever single year for a species? Some might complain that they have to travel or serve in the military but it is really easy to have Uncle Bob put you in for a point if you are unavailable. It just seems like the whole system is too easy. There are all kinds of hunters and that is what makes us all so great. Let's get those who don't "really" want to hunt huge bulls out of line. I hope that isn't rude but I think it is true. Well, what do you think? I hope this doesn't hi-jack this thread. I was going to start another but I think this applies to this post and the problems presented here.
 
high country hunter, I don't think it's a bad idea to charge more for a bonus point. Draw odds were much better when you had to front the money for the draw and not just put it on a card. That one definitely throws grandma out of the loop unless she's serious about it.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if bonus points could be sold or traded like stocks and there was no limit to how many a person could have. I think that would create a small industry itself. If your in a pinch don't go to the pawn shop, sell your bonus points.
 
One reason most bow hunters don't want to hunt during any weapons season is because people shoot at you. I've been shot at on two different occasions before I said to heck with this and I have friends that have been shot at as well before the said the heck with it. It will be interesting to see what the dwr has come up with this yr.
 
Did you guys read the proposal?

THE RIFLE HUNT STAYS THE SAME! EXACT SAME DATES.

Just shift the amount of tags, then hopefully people would see they had a chance at a tag and switch to archery, or muzzleloader and get people an opportunity to hunt.

It does not make sense to me that the 98% success weapon has the most tags! 60% of the total tags go to rifle hunters. Reduce that a LITTLE and give tons more archery tags.

I know my name is Bowhunt, but I would sure as crap prefer to rifle hunt elk, and so would my kids. The problem is they will NEVER get a chance.

Again:
KEEP THE DATES THE SAME
REDUCE THE RIFLE TAGS
INCREASE THE ARCHERY TAGS
KILL THE SAME NUMBER OF BULLS.
 
3blade you hit the nail on the head why most archers don't want to hunt during the any weapeon hunts it's out of fear. I for one wouldn't want to be 30 yards away from a monster bull while someone else is launching 338 Lapua rounds at it from 1000 yards.
 
this is a never ending debate. first off why do the rifle hunters feel they deserve to hunt prime rut? here this is simple, move the archery hunter a week later let them hunt the middle rut, then let the muzzys hunt the end rut, then give out like 15-20 rifle rut tags, then offer a crap load of rifle tags completely out of the rut. doing this you can maintain harvest objectives, increase hunter opportunity, and you quit slaughtering the giant bulls before they get a good chance to pass their genes. and you'll be able to draw multiple tags over the years. utah's the worst state about what you deserve all the time!
 
im new to monstermuleys but my brother just got done with a wasatch rifle tag had a good time gat a good bull but my concern is how do they expect to maintain big bull numbers with the spike only hunts in the LE areas somewhere the suppy is going to run out
 
And yet thousands of people from all over the world submit any weapon LE elk applications in Utah every year.

I think you've got it wrong there. Why do archers think THEY deserve to hunt during the rut. Every other state in the West allows archery hunting during the rut. Maybe the reason there are so many in the pool is because Utah IS the only state that rifle hunters can hunt during the rut. For guys who have never hunted with a bow, this is pretty exciting option for them. Sounds a lot like the same argument, just from a different angle.

We all knew the rules and regulations of the game when we started. No one forced you to bow hunt; it was your choice.

Mike, I have an honest question for you. How is your proposal going to reduce the # of hunters in the any weapon pool faster than the current plan? Your proposal reduces the # of any weapon tags by about 75/year on Wasatch alone. Sure some guys will switch to archery, but I think if most guys were serious about bow hunting they would already be doing it. And as we all no, the any weapon pool is the largest group of applicants in every unit.

How about the rifle hunters and the bow hunters switch hunt dates and lengths straight across the board. The rifle guys will hunt from the middle of August until the middle of September. And after hearing about how hard this hunt is, the success should be lower and then we can increase the number of rifle tags. Then the archery guys can hunt the 8 days after the rifle hunt. And because the success rate for archery hunts are historically lower, we can also increase those tags. This sounds like a win/win for both groups, what do you think? Now I am mostly kinding about this, but you can see that my plan would move the rifle hunt out of the rut, increase rifle tags and increase archery tags. And, my plan would move people through the system even faster.

Sorry to be a bit of smart A, it's just in my nature, a character flaw I guess.

And littledog (I think that was your name, Wasatch has been spike only for general season for almost 20 years and there are still big bulls on that unit. Maybe not as many but there are still quality bulls on Wasatch. Take a look at some of the pictures on MM for proof.

And finally for my last comment (hooray). I disagree with you INMYSIGHTS, the rifle hunt isn't a shoot it is still a hunt. You talk to guys that have these tags and they will tell you how hard they hunted to fill their tag with a quality bull. Stinky said he lost 15 pounds on his hunt and I have heard the same thing from numerous guys with rifle tags. Sure most of them fill their tags, but they work a lot harder than you make it sound.
 
Rutnelk,

Your questions is fair and good.

I am making the assumption that people will move pools, like I did and many others I know. I finally got tired of putting in for Rifle because I knew realistically that I would never draw. So I switched to Archery, and whammo I am out of the log jam.

I could be totally wrong!

It sounds like the solution is going to be: moving the Rifle Hunt out of the rut, and reducing the success rate.

What I proposed would keep the rifle hunt in the rut, just reduce the tags...hopefully encouraging others to move to other weapons.

You have NEVER heard me complain about the archery dates. You have never heard me say the Rifle hunt is easy.
I am just trying to figure out how to make things a little better.
 
You are right, I have never heard you complain about the dates or make assumptions about the rifle hunt. Those comments of mine were directed at other members and I apologize for making it seem like I was attacking you.

I do like that you left the rifle hunt during the rut in your proposal.
 
Rutnelk,

Thanks!

Serious question:
Do you think people would change if they thought they could draw a great unit and hunt with a bow?
 
I think some people would change, but I don't think the percentage would be very high. But who knows, I could be totally wrong. Maybe this is a question we should ask all of the guys and gals in the any weapon pool? If a lot of them would be willing to change weapons for a better chance to draw, your plan might work. But, I think that most people would stay with the weapons that they are already applying for.
 
Change is coming in 2010 for the better :)
you guys can sit here and argue all you want but its true big changes is coming for all deer and elk hunters!

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Why do you keep bringing this up and then don't post what the proposed changes are? Pretty childish if you ask me.
 
Childish is arguing a moot point.

If you were active in a hunting group say SFW, UBA, or any other group you would know what the proposal is going to be.

This is where change happens. It doesn't happen on the internet.

I am not going to open my mouth on here and say what the proposal is because it could get changed before it gets presented. I want to see it get passed so I will keep my mouth shut.


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
>Rutnelk,
>
>I finally got
>tired of putting in for
>Rifle because I knew realistically
>that I would never draw.
>So I switched to Archery,
>and whammo I am out
>of the log jam.

Yet again someone that has already drawn a tag trying to find a way to draw another tag!! To fix the log jam why don't we make anyone that has drawn a tag already drop out until everyone with 5 points or more that hasn't drawn a tag get's pulled for the hunt of a lifetime. Then we can all start at zero points and archery can have what ever dates they want and as many tags as they want? That will fix the log jam right?? Or I really like the idea of switching the ANY WEAPON (which is any weapon) dates with the archery dates, I would love a month of hunting bugling bulls with ANY WEAPON that I want to hunt with!! And log throwers can have the dates they keep crying over!!
 
SW
We are not arguing about anything. We are talking about what we would like to see.
Guess what, even if they do change, we can propose more and different change.
I am glad you are in the know, thanks for letting us know you are.
 
Tay,
Thanks for your productive comments.

I do not plan on every applying in Utah for Elk again, so I am not trying to get a tag.

Let me guess you have a bunch of points and don't want it spoiled.

Here we go again, a selfish guy who has points only thinking of himself. Not worried about the young kid that may never draw...

LOL
 
I agree bowhunt; I don't feel like we have been arguing at all. We were just discussing different options and opinions like adults until sw came along.

The internet may not be where change takes place, but it is where sw can be a DB. Congratulations sw, you are a DB on the internet, and I'm sure a lot of other places too.
 
I am a rifle guy. Nothing against bowhunters, just never done it myself.

Bowhunt,
What does a good bow set up cost? Your'e telling me with this proposal that I should switch to archery, but that sounds like another costly investment for me and my four boys.
This proposal only benifits one group. Archers.

How about this proposal.

Archery hunt ends Sept. 15th no matter what day in falls on. Muzzleloader hunt starts Sept. 16th thru 25th. Rifle starts the 27th thru Oct. 6th.
Give more tags to all three groups and everone in happy. Or is that possible?
 
There needs to be a week between each different season. The scouters for the next season compound the nuber of people in the woods during the hunt. Currently, during the last week of LE Archery Elk, there are almost as many rifle hunters scouting as there are bowhunters hunting.
 
Maybe the bowhunters should be in the woods hunting instead of online crying about there season date.
 
>Tay,
>Thanks for your productive comments.
>
>I do not plan on every
>applying in Utah for Elk
>again, so I am not
>trying to get a tag.
>
>
>Let me guess you have a
>bunch of points and don't
>want it spoiled.
>
>Here we go again, a selfish
>guy who has points only
>thinking of himself. Not worried
>about the young kid that
>may never draw...
>
>LOL


Am I the selfish guy because I have been waiting for my turn to hunt elk in the rut or are you because you think your kid deserves a tag more than the people that have waited 13-14 years?
 
The only way to give time in between hunts is to shorten them, and the only one that can be shortened in the bowhunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-02-09 AT 12:19PM (MST)[p]Albubba, I like the order of your idea, but I think the dates should be a little different.

Here is my ajustment to your idea.
Archery hunt dose not move, muzzy hunt stays where it is, and have the Rifle (or any weapon) hunt start the first saturday in October just like the genral hunts.

Leave the peak rut alone and give the elk a break.

So this is the way it would have broke down this year 2009.

Archery, 08-15 to 09-11.
Muzzy, 09-23 to 10-01.
Any Weapon, 10-03 to 10-11.

Thats what I think should happen.

Also somebody said that this only benefits the archery hunters but thats not true, this bennefits everyone by alowing more tags and still keeping the quallity of bulls the same.

And I will bet you anything that the bulls will still be screaming there heads off during the Any Weapon hunt.


Now I'm going to go hunt some piss cutters on the genral hunt, good luck to everyone else doing the same.


Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
If there are no general season hunts at the same time.
You will say that the archers have to deal with that, but the sound of a bowsting isn't the same a rifle shot when it comes to spooking elk.
 
>I am a rifle guy. Nothing
>against bowhunters, just never done
>it myself.
>
>Bowhunt,
>What does a good bow set
>up cost? Your'e telling me
>with this proposal that I
> should switch to archery,
>but that sounds like another
>costly investment for me and
>my four boys.
>This proposal only benifits one group.
>Archers.
>
>How about this proposal.
>
>Archery hunt ends Sept. 15th no
>matter what day in falls
>on. Muzzleloader hunt starts Sept.
>16th thru 25th. Rifle starts
>the 27th thru Oct. 6th.
>
>Give more tags to all three
>groups and everone in happy.
>Or is that possible?

This is very close to the proposal on the table and I like it. I have been on MANY Utah LE rifle hunts and it's like stealing a 2 year olds candy.
 
Rutnelk,

I agree that I did make it sound as if the rifle hunt wasn't work. Unfair to generalize on my part. Although you can't deny the succes rates. That was where my comment originated from. When you have almost 100% success rate then that is a little unfair to the animal. Believe me....it is nice to know that when I draw a tag I will almost be guaranteed a bull...that will definately depend on what I am willing to take of course. I will say though...I have been hunting my whole life and I have spent plenty of time in the hills during the LE hunts. Amazes me how many people just ride around on their 4 wheelers with 7 guys expecting a bull to just be right there in front of them. Crazy part is that on many of the units...they can fill their tag just that way. It may not be a 400" bull but no doubt you can shoot a 330" bull with very little work as long as that 300 Win Mag is in your hand during the rut. I have hunted with a rifle, muzzleloader and bow most of my life....I alternate quite a bit...so I am not biased in my opinion. It just doesn't make sense to hunt Elk during the Rut with a rifle. Heck...I called a 340" bull in for a friend on the muzzy hunt into 25 yards....a 400g slug took care of that bull in a split second....That could be called unfair as well....but there again...look at the success rate. I'm not fighting this because of me....I'm fighting because most of our kids will NEVER draw a tag, and that's just not right. We can increase opportunity...change behavior and still have Big bulls for everyone. It is interesting that even though the majority are rifle hunters....that if you look at the survey I posted...more people dissagree with hunting elk during rut...so far at least....would like to see more responses.

I agree as well that this is a great conversation that really gets some information and ideas going. Nothing wrong with awareness and thought provoking discussion SW!!!!
 
I don't think it's like that at all on most areas. You will always have the guys that "get lucky", but I know lots of guys that put in a lot of time before taking a good bull.
 
Yeah, your the selfish one.

"self interest or self concern. It is the act of placing one's own needs first before the good of other"

:)
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-02-09 AT 12:45PM (MST)[p]Nope....can't blame ya....the problem is just that...everyone is SELFISH!!!!! It is an all about me culture these days and it is unfortunate. I have been waiting just like you and still currently waiting...but I am more concerned about my children and their opportunity to actually continue to hunt...the reason for that concern is if they aren't interested in it because of lack of opportunity then I lose either way. Hunting for me has been a way of learning life lessons and enjoying the company of my family without all of the junk that we are surrounded by. Yes I can do that regardless if I shoot an animal or not...but the opportunity is the driving force for anyone having a desire to go hunting....the rest of what I talked about is what can result from that opportunity.

And if given the chance....would I give up my opportunity to give my boys an opportunity, IN A SECOND!!!!!
 
Are we all not a little selfish when it comes to hunting.
We all want the best experience for ourselves and family.
It's a catch 22. If you want your kids to hunt, we need changes, but not until I use "my" 15 points because I have been waiting for the chance.
 
Really the whole problem the dwr ran into with the elk in Utah was they managed every unit just like the Henry mountain deer. The age class on all these units were all over objective. They didn't allow the tags to go out that would keep these bulls under or at age objective. That screwed allot of people along the way. People should have drawn their rifle tags years ago. Now if I had max points I would be complaining to keep it the same as it is. Because I would feel I deserve the 400 bull during the rut.

Now there are more people on the bottom of the pyramided scheme that see they won't ever get a chance so the political processes are swinging the other direction for more tags. Change is coming

Since you wanted to know what my plan was here it is. This is not the divisions plan!!

You can't give out more rifle tags during the rut with a 98% success or the extreme top end will be shot out. Would you agree on that? The only way you can allow more rifle tags is to do it when the bulls are less valuable. You can issue more archery tags because their success is in the 30% range. They also usually take the smaller bulls so it still protects the top end bulls to maybe let a few more get one year older. You could move them into the rut or closer to the rut. The muzzy guys can go pound sand LOL. That was a joke.

All of this would allow more tags to be issued. Doesn?t mean everyone will kill a bull. It isn't archery vs. rifle battle like some of you guys think it is. It is a battle to relieve the bonus point butt plug and not loose the quality Utah is famous for.

If it were also up to me you would have to use your points to hunt for spike elk. These spike tags are going to hurt the elk bonus point butt plug in the long run if you ask me. You can't kill spikes without cutting the LE tags. I am not in favor of them.

This is why I favor the Arizona elk plan. They give out more tags percentage wise for elk then Utah does. They have fewer elk but more people can have a chance to hunt them. They also have as big as bulls as Utah does. Utah has more elk so they should move more people through the system. Arizona also doesn't have spike elk hunts. They allow more archery tags to compensate allowing the bull to cow ratio to be high and keep the herds at objective and the quality high. It is not about sticking it to the rifle hunter and giving the archer the whole cake.

If a rifle guy is a diehard he will any hunt with his rifle. If he is flexible and wants to hunt elk every 3 to 5 years on a LE unit with his bow he now can put his rifle down and do this.
As it is right now you cant with the point creep, it is more like 15 years or more for an archer if he starts out with zero points. Fifteen years or more for any tag is BS No state should run the whole state for success at drawing tags like that.


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Give more archery tags (during the rut, before the rut or after the rut) and WHAMO, you now have more archery hunters. Do this for a few years and you will see a bunch of rifle hunters that see a way to hunt elk more than once in their lifetime and they will be picking up a bow.
Give more tags to the least effective (lower success rate weapon) and you will help everyone move through the draw proccess quicker.
 
Put the muzzy guys first there was some 60 muzzy permits for wasatch, alot of bowhunters I have talked to, the elk hang up out to 80 to 100 yards let the muzzy go 1st then bow then rifle.And maybe someone can answer this the dwr set #s of how many elk they can take in a certain year on a unit, so for example 350 tags aren't they saying thats how many can be harvested to stay at age objective or am I wrong.
 
I think even slam will agree it is a lot harder to kill a bull with a bow than a rifle period. so why would anyone who has waited 20+ years to draw a "any weapon tag" Even a diehard archer, possibly waist there once in a life time shot to hunt big bulls during the rut? I say waist because by hunting with a bow they take their success rate from 95%+ down to less than 25%. I spent 26 out of the 28 day season on my fish lake tag this year and never even got a shot at a mature bull.(And keep in mind I have never harvested a big game animal with a rifle all have been with a bow or muzzy.) If I had waited for an "any weapon" tag you bet ya I would have been hunting with a rifle. It just makes no sense for someone to take that kind of a chance with a bow during the any weapon hunt.

Just Living The Dream
 
>Put the muzzy guys first there
>was some 60 muzzy permits
>for wasatch, alot of bowhunters
>I have talked to, the
>elk hang up out to
>80 to 100 yards let
>the muzzy go 1st then
>bow then rifle.

To INCREASE harvest rates? Huh?
 
Sorry but I don't agree that giving more archery tags is gonna help the point system. How many max point holders are there right now that are archers? The only thing you will do and I don't blame you for trying is: move the archers through the system faster as to have a chance at more than 1 tag in their life. I don't know the answers, but I do know there are quite a few die hard rifle hunters out there still with max points. They won't change either. If I had any say I would say simply: switch muzzy and rifle dates and see how things work.
 
Here is my proposal: Give all tags needed to meet the DWR management plan to the most efficient and humane method (rifle). let them hunt from mid August to mid November on allotted tags.


not bad eh?
 

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