Idaho Mule Deer=STUPID MANAGEMENT

[Prism]

I've asked this question before but here goes again.

Why in the world does the Idaho Fish and Game allow hunters to purchase more than one deer tag when the deer herds suck almost as bad as Utah's?

I guess the quick answer is $$$. But surely the Idaho Fish and Game isn't quite that dense!

Let's see here we're trying to increase our deer herds by allowing hunters to kill more than one deer. Makes sense to me! NOT!!!

BTW Idaho sold out of all deer tags in 2005-first time in looooonnnnngggg time.

 

[ridgerunner]

$$$$$$$$, but there are some areas in IDaho that can handle the pressure, specifically the whitetails up north. Don't know why Montana doesn't go to OTC tags for whitetails in NW Montana. They have them coming out there ears......

 

[Prism]

I can see the extra tags for whitetails up north.

It just doesn't make any sense to let guys buy extra tags for mule deer in the south though.

 

[supersider34]

Not all tags sold are used in every unit. I know several guys who bought NR tags at NR prices. They drew tags, Harvested there deer then hunted elsewhere.

 

[Blank]

Unanswerable questions for F&G-
1. Why do we still run late deer hunts in the rut in trophy units, when buck/doe #'s are down, and they've been chased during archery, then general gun season.
2. Why run all these doe hunts in units with poor numbers; let's just burn down the factory producing the product.
3. Why sell all those non-resident tags as an extra to anyone who wants one? If they are good, they've killed a nice buck, then go after another. Limit them to WT's up North where there are plenty.
4. Why sell tags after the season opens? You oughta know what you plan to do, more than a day in advance.
5. Why don't we have a 3 or 4 year wait out on these trophy units, to give some other people a chance.

Lots of others, but you guys get the general idea.

 

[lostinOregon]

The multiple mule deer tag is a killer. Weren't they conducting a "study" to find out what is happening to the mule deer. I don't have a degee in wildlife but I would venture a guess, a layman's guess that over harvest would be the problem. Of course I'm no biologist.

 

[supersider34]

What about the people that did not harvest animals? I know of a bunch of hunters that did not harvest. Also know of kids that did not harvest animals. I can count probably 14 adult tags and 5 or 6 kids that did not harvest. I know guys that hunt that have ate tag soup for yrs only so they can get a wall hanger. Get close but can seal the deal. I have hunted with guys that dont listen to advice and just try to do things there own way. Just counting up the tags I know of and maybe talk to some others could come up with some also.

 

[graybeard]

One fact I can offer is that the ID method for counting deer is very flawed on the optomistic side of numbers. It has been tested on a re-count in a trophy unit in CO where the sportsmen forced them to re-asess the numbers in unit 10. They had to use ID methods in CO as part of the survey. The ID count was close at least 50% higher than the CO count and they were all counting the same deer, just different methods....Other than that, it beats me why they are so earger to sell tags...Steve

 

[eweikum338]

I have to disagree with you. I think Idaho has the very best management program of all the western States.
Idaho has appx 12,000 deer tags available. What difference does it make who buys them? Weather 12,000 hunters buy one each or 6,000 hunters buy two each? It's still 12,000 tags no matter how you count it.
I'm sure alot of hunters like myself use the first tag for some great tasting venison and the second to hunt for a trophy which almost never gets filled.
Be very happy with what you have, any change will be a loss for hunters. Idaho could adopt Califs deer tag numbers, like 65,000 for just one zone, (A) zone, or 33,000 for D3-D5 where I am sure there aren't even 33,000 deer in the area.
Idaho could change like Nevada where you might get a deer tag every 10 years or so, which totally sucks in my opinion.
Remember, change is not always a good thing for hunters or deer.
Just my opinion.

 

[fairchase]

"Why in the world does the Idaho Fish and Game allow hunters to purchase more than one deer tag when the deer herds suck almost as bad as Utah's?"

I don't know, probably the same reason they have continued to increase the number of doe tags.

 

[PronghornHunter]

Wyoming did this with antelope tags around my area in the early 90's. Their count from the year before was way off (computer screw up?)so it seemed we had an over abundance of antelope and they were selling up to six additional doe fawn tags per person. Well it didn't take them long to figure out they were way off when they did their field count after season was over. I had heard one story that the low numbers were due to predation. Of course they are the educated experts and know better. Try telling that line of BS to the varmint hunters.

 

[idabigbuck]

Prism,
Do you have any stats to back up your assertions? Everything I'm reading says the herd numbers are up across the range in Idaho. During my scouting I'm seeing deer on a consistant basis.

The only way you can get an extra tag is to put in for a depredation hunt, or buy a leftover non-resident tag at non-resident prices. All the X controlled hunt tags are for whitailed deer only and they are anterless. They are all up north except unit 60, and that is whitetail only also.

I believe the biologists at F&G have a pretty good handle on what the carrying capacity of the land is in each unit. They make their tag recommendations based on the stats. It is often necessary to reduce the doe numbers to bring the buck to doe ratios up to management objectives.

Do you live in Idaho? Your profile doesn't say where you live.
Do what I did and go to the F&G website and sign up for the updates. They inform you when the commissioners meetings are so you could voice your opinions to the people that make the decisions about tag numbers and quota's.

 

[fairchase]

idabigbuck,
When it's necessary to reduce the doe numbers to bring the buck to doe ratios up...that's fine. When it's done to keep landowners from complaining about depredation I think it should be looked at on a case by case basis. But, when F&G offers large numbers of doe tags on public land to keep cattlemen who are leasing state and fedral property from whining because they think their cattle should come first...that's just wrong.

 

[Prism]

I'm one of your neighbors from the south-Utah. I lived in the Cache Valley for a couple of years and spent a lot of time from Preston to Soda. I've owned hunting licenses in Idaho for about the past 8 years and have hunted up there about every other year.

So, I'm by no means any kind of Idaho expert. I know that there is some great hunting in some controlled units and some good hunting in some other general units-in my opinion better than Utah's general units, but not by much.

From what I've experienced up there and from what I gather through the grapevine, I can't see how or why the Idaho Fish and Game allows hunters to take multiple mule deer bucks in the general units.

Perhaps I'm way off and Idaho's general season area mule deer are doing great, but I doubt it.

 

[kingfish]

I have to agree with 338. I have hunted Idaho for 20 years and if they only allow so many tags what difference does it make??. I have seen a slight decline in deer numbers but deer numbers always cycle for one reason or another. Idaho is by far the best managed state I have hunted.

 

[idabigbuck]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-05 AT 08:47AM (MST)[p]Fairchase,
I agree with you. I think the wildlife should come first.

Prism,
speaking for myself, I don't have the budget to be able to buy non-resident tags. Perhaps there are some that do, I just don't know anyone who has bought a non-res tag.

I haven't hunted eastern Idaho, but I do understand that F&G is having a hard time getting the herd numbers up there. They do have a plan called the mule deer initiative to look at habitat loss, predators, fawn mortality, ect. to try to improve the herds, especially in eastern Idaho.

My personal opinion, we better start looking at predators, especially wolves and cats as the main culprit keeping the herd numbers down. And heads up because if the sierra club and defenders of wildlife get their way you will have wolves in Utah devouring your herds quicker than you can say Wasatch mountains.

 

[IdahoMuley]

dont know, the area i hunted the deer herds were way up this year and the amount of decent size bucks were up to saw more nice 4pts than 2pts, in genral season. and there were hunters every whare camper on every corner. so at least they are doin a pretty good job in one part of the state.
Muley Man!

 

[Moosie]

Prism, keep asking the Question.. but just because you don't get the answer you're looking for doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.

"Why in the world does the Idaho Fish and Game allow hunters to purchase more than one deer tag when the deer herds suck almost as bad as Utah's?"

1st off, I'm a little hard pressed to see how anything in Idaho can Suck as bad as anything in Utah. The deer poplations are one of the furthest that suck as bad as Utah.

2nd, Can you point out why the Deer numbers are as bad this year as they have been ?

Here is a Litle link with a couple numbers :

http://espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/s/f_map_05_ID_Magic_Valley.html

Some quotes ?

"We're having excellent fawn recruitment in many parts of the region this year," said Randy Smith, Idaho Fish and Game's Magic Valley regional wildlife manager (208-324-4350) in Jerome, Idaho."

Deer go in Cycles and in Idaho it happens too. You can blame deer dropping accross the Western states due to overhunting but if you look at the root, the Real problem, It's Lack of Habitat.

There are many reasons fish and Game change the rules and limitations on areas and I'll be the first to agree that they are not all right or perfect. But I will say the guys on the Ground are doing whatthey can to maintain a Huntable and sustainable deer herd in Idaho.

There is 3 basic Hunters. The meat hunter, the Social Hunter and the Trophy hunter. I would lay Dollars to donuts that 90% of the hunters fall under the Middle catagory. You'll hearthe I only hunt for meat or I only hunt for trophy's but there is so Much BS in most of those comments I can't even start typing on that.

Which lays down to the Hunting opertunities. A ballence of trophy units, and general units is what a State needs and Idaho is working on that. I've seen more deer this year then in years past and I've spent a fraction of the time out there like I usually do.

On the does hunts it's a Simple math Equasion I'm told. There is a Calculated (Estimated) guess on the Number of Deer that a Winter range can hold. If the numbers get out of Wack, in either direction, a Ballence of Bucks to Does need to be met. Someone needs to come up with this and Fish and Game does it's best with it's Budget in maintaining the Numbers.

We could take away the Fish and Game and leave the Management to groups like SFW so only the Rich can hunt each year. But at least when they pay for the tag they'll get a big buck.........

• 
  [*] -Moosie

~~If you're going to walk on thin ice, Ya might as Well DANCE !!
WALK the TALK, Or shut the HECK UP !!

 

[Prism]

Thanks for the info guys.

So, it seems that the majority of you feel that Idaho can handle the extra deer being harvested.

Seems like a good deal then. Maybe I should look into it. That way I can harvest a deer, and then look for something bigger.

Maybe I'll get SE region tag again then hunt another area later. Better yet, maybe I'll draw a tag and then purchase a tag to archery hunt the same unit(S).

The possibilities are endless......almost.... Seems like the extra tag deal is gonna get pretty popular.

Good luck on your own draws.

What's the latest news on bonus/preference points?

 

[Moosie]

Prism, I can't read you yet....Was that post serious or Sarcastic ? I need to know before I respond

The extra tag thing is nothing new, it's been around for awhile. Don't get me wrong, it is a Money thing. When there is a shortage of deer in an Area you can't buy a tag for that area. Take the SE area of the state for example.

Southeast Deer - Application period for these tags is December 1, 2005 thru January 31, 2006. 1,115 Available. You can't buy a tag in that area as a non res, you need to apply for it. The deer herds aren't like they used to be, should be, or could be.

I look at it like this, If there can be 10 apples picked from a tree and 10 people each take one apple thats great. If only 5 people pick apples the other 5 will fall of and go to the ground right ? So I personally don't see whats wrong with 5 people each taking 2 apples from the tree.

That being said, If the farmer tells me I can Take 2 apples and 4 other people can take 2 apples and there is only 3 apples, somethings wrong and should be changed...

For the Utards, Apples represent deer in the above story and yes, I know you can't pick a deer from a tree, it's ....uhhh, like an example

NOW, Onto the Bonus System, as wa typing this I paused to Call Brad Compton with Fish and Game. He'll be the firstto know whatthe Bonus System will be like and. I'll be the 2nd the vote in the last meeting was 4-3 against the system. The issue is the cost. He said the re-send a vote and Pushed it till Jan 12th. They also brought in the guy that does the Nevada, Utah,AZ, Etc draws and negotiated the minimal fee to do a "draw" system. they got it down to about an Extra 3-4 bucks. (Bucks being cash, not an animal... )

The system will be based off the Nevada system, It will be a Prime2+1. The 2 being "square". They are trying to keep it fair enough not to Discriminate against the Youth. Funding is the Biggest key. on raising fees, 65% said no way, 35% said way. on raising the Premium tag fees only 85% said not way and only 15% said way. It's predictable who's voting which way.... Guys with a litle bit of money (In towns usually) voted in the effectthat they would drop more coins to play to hunt. Guys that live in the sticks voted the Other way. Theyy feel things should be left alone and they should just get a tag when they want. Am I steriotyping ? You bet-cha

Other then that, I know nothing ......... (Except I can't wait till next October )

• 
  [*] -Moosie

~~If you're going to walk on thin ice, Ya might as Well DANCE !!
WALK the TALK, Or shut the HECK UP !!

 

[TFinalshot]

Moosie, that's what I'm told.

"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).

 

[Moosie]

"Moosie, that's what I'm told."

What's that mean ?

Is it the last part were I say I don't know anything else ?

• 
  [*] -Moosie

~~If you're going to walk on thin ice, Ya might as Well DANCE !!
WALK the TALK, Or shut the HECK UP !!

 

[Prism]

Moosie,

I wasn't being too sarcastic, just a tad.

Don't worry, my wife can't read me either. She thinks I only think about one thing and only want to do one thing-hunt.

I told her that's just not true.

I think about 2 things!

 

[Moosie]

Don't tell her you think of Hunting and Me... She might get upset like Browtines wife did

Here's what I don't get, why were you so upset and b|tchy about a topic and Switch on a dime when others disagree. Most people would go down fighting their argument a little longer. Sorry if I scared you off with my Facts to your Babbling....

PS, the latter remark was in Jest (Another Disclaimer I feel the need to point out )

• 
  [*] -Moosie

~~If you're going to walk on thin ice, Ya might as Well DANCE !!
WALK the TALK, Or shut the HECK UP !!

 

[BrianID]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-05 AT 01:51PM (MST)[p]Moosie,

Thanks for the update.

Prism,

I don't like how $$$ is making hunting more of a rich mans sport. This $$$ making strategy of the F&G could have an impact on a small area if several guys that hunt there buy additional tags but it will have very little impact on the total number of deer killed state wide. There are a lot of hunters that talk about buying a second tag (my self included) but I don't know anyone personally that has done it. The truth is trophy potential in the general season units isn't good enough for most guys to fork out the extra $$$. Like it or not the general season units are managed for opportunity not quality.

I don't see anything more unfair or wrong with it than guys that hunts multiple states every year. What is the difference in a hunter (resident or nonresident) shooting a second mule deer in Idaho on a legally purchased nonresident tag and a nonresident shooting a mule deer in their home state and then coming to Idaho to shoot one? The way I see it both hunters used the almighty dollar to purchase their Idaho nonresident tag. Anyway you're entitled to your opinion, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents.

 

[Prism]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-05 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]Moosie,

Atleast it's not anybodys wife thinking about you. Then we may some problems.

I'm not switching on a dime or quarter, just don't think it's worth arguing about.

I don't live in Idaho and I don't hunt up there every year. If you guys are happy with your deer hunting then so be it. You know better than I do how your deer herds are doing.

Apparantly the deer herds are doing good enough to allow hunters the opportunity to kill 2 deer, or eat two apples I liked your analogy, though it should of been potatoes since we're talking about Idaho

Does that mean I can kill 2 deer in unit 56? More sound management by the Idaho Fish and Game..... Sign me up!

I do enough %@$%#! and moaning about Utah's pisspour missmanagement of deer. Something I do have a feel for and deal with on a daily basis.

I'm glad that Idaho shortened the deer hunt in the SE region, and discontinued the late muzzleloader hunt. If the winters are kind, I think SE Idaho will make a huge comeback.

I haven't drawn a controlled hunt in Idaho since '99, '06 is going to be the year! I'd like to see Idaho adopt some sort of bonus point system. I would not like to see a preference point system like Colorados though. I think everybody should have a chance even without points.

I don't have many (right) answers, just lots of questions.......