WY Region H Pounded by Winter

SPAZ

Active Member
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568
I've heard rumors and phoned the Jackson G&F people and confirmed it. It looks pretty ugly in those parts. Has anybody hunted this area after a very bad winter? Does it really zap them that badly? With the deadline coming up and preference points starting, not sure I want to be considering Region H. CRAP.
 
I just came back from H & the snow levels look the same.
Major winter kill BS!!!!!!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-06 AT 08:27PM (MST)[p]Are you saying the snow isn't that bad? I called Doug Brumyer of the G&F in Jackson and he said it was severe.

If it is that bad, how many years does it take to recover?

Many skiiers that I know who have been to Jackson Hole and Targhee say it's a monster snow year, unlike they've ever seen. That's why I called the G&F. Doesn't sound good, but it can't kill them all.
 
we need some of that snow up here north in wyoming, we are getting 50 degree weather..i want snow
 
SPAZ,
I have been here since the late 50s & seen many a winters in Big Wonderful.
Don?t worry about the winter
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-06 AT 04:01AM (MST)[p]HaHa nice try SPAZ haha!! Maybe if your info wasn't 'hidden' ya might have some merit.

To late to jockey for better H draw odds, many-many guys have been long gone in the mail for H.....

There is a HELL of a lot more to H than just the Jackson area.
 
I just went on the NRCS snowpack data site and checked the western Wyoming basins. Here's the official record:

Snake River drainage - 116% of normal as of now
Green River drainage - 112%
Wind River - 88%
Yellowstone - 108%

We have the same deal here in southern and southeast Wyoming. But we don't have much snow down low and things look fine.

You can check the NRCS website by just doing a google search for "Wyoming snowpack NRCS" and then clicking on the basin update. It changes daily. It's also available for all other western states.
 
What they should tell you is that the area has been pounded by over hunting-not snow.

Until the Wyoming G&F puts 2 and 2 together and figures out that they can no longer allow it to be overhunted they'll blame it on too much snow, too little snow, etc, etc.

Winter range reports from guys I know and trust that have been up looking at deer say it's pathetic compared to years past.

Still some awesome bucks, some of the most incredible country in the West, but not what it used to be by any stretch.
 
Amen, Prism. It's been poorly managed for way too long. I won't even go there any more because it breaks my heart to know what it was and what it can be. It could be a crown jewel, but instead it's just another place.
 
I would venture to say with my experiences in Regions H and G that the O&G Business are taking a toll on mature bucks. Look at how many O&G Businesses their are in these Regions, clients they bring in per week, in each outfit, and the amount mature bucks each outfit harvests during the season. Extend that over the past 5-7 years. This has to have some impact on the # of mature bucks in these Regions, and I would say, more impact than people think. I'm not trying to knock the businees, cause they definately have their place and their right.
 
Anywhere after a tough winter will be a tough hunt. Don't forget all the oil and gas drilling that is going on in the winter range of these deer.....that will have an effect too.
 
>I would venture to say with
>my experiences in Regions H
>and G that the O&G
>Business are taking a toll
>on mature bucks. Look
>at how many O&G Businesses
>their are in these Regions,
>clients they bring in per
>week, in each outfit, and
>the amount mature bucks each
>outfit harvests during the season.
> Extend that over the
>past 5-7 years. This
>has to have some impact
>on the # of mature
>bucks in these Regions, and
>I would say, more impact
>than people think. I'm
>not trying to knock the
>businees, cause they definately have
>their place and their right.
>


I think that if you try and put this on the outfitters and guides then your not looking at the big picture. The problem is that too many people can hunt units G & H. This is poor mgmt on a state level. As long as there are liberal tag #s and residents hunting it on an OTC tag the units will not rebound. The outfitters and guides are working with what the state is giving them, I cannot hardly blame them for that.

Drummond
 
Huntsonora.
You are correct about the outfitters using what the state gives them.However I am very confident that if the state proposed changes the loudest cry would be from the outfitters.We have to make a living would be the cry. And the excessive tags is what got them in the buisness to begin with. This state does a poor job of regulating a wonderful resource.
Doug
 
I'm not saying the only factor the deer #'s are down in these Regions are solely because of O&G's. Deer populations are effected by many factors, however, hunting and weather are really what drives big game populations. You could argue that predators play a major role as well. The States issue far more tags for deer than they expect to have harvested. They bank on hunting success to stay down to 30% or lower. I am in agreement that there is far too much hunting pressure in these Regions. My point with the O&G's is that their success in harvest is significantly higher than the average deer hunter in Wyoming, and they take in quite a few clients in a season. They also take a high percentage of mature bucks. If there are several O&G's that hunt in an area and harvest a good # of mature bucks in an area every season, the # of mature bucks that will survive in the area is going to be significantly lower than an area that does not have an O&G or an area that only has a one or two. Again, I am not trying to knock the business, I am just stating a couple of hard facts.
 
There is no question that the outfitters would not be happy with reduced tag numbers but I can guarantee that the residents would not be happy if they had to draw a premier tag such as G or H. The state needs to do something.

Drummond
 
I know that the outfitters often brag about their success rates being close to 100%. They also like to show that they are taking mature bucks. If I had the money to hire an outfitter I would. I would also not want to see the tags reduced if I were an outfitter. The state of Wyoming did drastically reduce the tags in G and H a few years ago. I hunted H this last year and the bucks I saw preseason tell me that there are plenty of mature bucks. We did not get one but that is only because there were a few things happening that were out of our control. The tags could be reduced a bit but overall I was pleased with the quality of animals I saw.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
Hey guys!!How about letting Wyo G&F know how you feel????They don't listen to us residents!We are all a bunch of crybabies as far as they are concerned-especially the outfitters!!They are a RE-active dept.The only time they are PRO-active is if they can see more $$$$$$!!!They reduce tags or use point restriction AFTER the damage has been done.They increase tags when they feel like there COULD BE too many deer in the coming years(they give out doe tags to make more $$$$$$$$$).Truth be known,our deer herds have never recovered from the winter of '92-'93.Although I realize there are a myriad of reasons for this,the only thing that G&F can control is hunter numbers,and they refuse to do this,as it will cost the department MONEY!They refuse to believe that they could actually be wrong!Our deer herds are in the worst shape they've been in for 13 yrs.
 
Nontypical, great post, but take a look at these official numbers from the 1990's. In 1990 the Wyoming range mule deer herd was estimated at 52,300. In 1991 the carter lease herd unit, area 134 west of Kemmerer, was added to the Wyoming range herd, for an estimate of 57,200. As many people know the early 90's was slaughter time. With as many as 9 permits per hunter, this "greatest disgrace in the history of wildlife managment" is still joked about by members of the game and fish, they call it the "deer wars". The sickening part to the story is the thousands of hunters who killed truckloads of deer. The hunters who participated in this are as much to blame as the game and fish. So in 1991 we had 57,200 and in 1992 the estimate was 34,000 deer. WOW 23,200 deer come up missing in one year. Can anyone say overharvest? The excuse of the winter of 92-93 killing all the deer is nothing but a lie backed up by the departments own paperwork. So in 1992 we had 34,000, in 1993 25,803, a difference of 8,197. The deer were wiped out long before this bad winter.Mismanagement, misinformation, incompetence and $$$$, are to blame. Sorry for the boring numbers but the truth needs to be told. All concerned sportsman should contact Terry Cleveland, director of the Wyoming game and fish at 5400 Bishop boulevard, Cheyenne WY 82006. The more complaints they hear the better.Thanks for reading.
 
You hit the nail on the head jd. Those extra doe tags did most of the damage. I have written the Wg&f. Now their only choice is to limit residents. Until they bite that bullet Reg. G & H will only be great country with average deer hunting.
 
Right on,JD.I still submit that hunters will do as much as they are allowed to.Unfortunately,the majority in our ranks do not see things the same way we do.I was guilty of taking 1 additional doe for 2-3 of those years.I was feeding a family at that time,and did not kill a buck until '91(or '92).I do remember seeing pickup trucks literally over the bed with antelope(as you remember,you could take 13 of those..).Those people(I won't call them hunters)that did that were obviously misguided,which further makes my point that G&F was to blame(for the most part).Though they did later admit their counts were exaggerated,game management is really more about managing hunters than it is the animal.Later.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-06 AT 06:37PM (MST)[p]In response to the original question, we've had alot of snow this year and the snow pack looks great for summer. Hopefully it won't melt off too fast. The elk herds are down, but I don't think it is worse off for this winter. Weather is not the primary cause of elk herd reductions.

The deer really don't winter in the areas of heavy snowfall. The deer herd has been pitiful and I expect that we will continue to see it decline. It was colder in the Jackson, Star Valley, Grays river areas this winter than it has been. I'm not sure about the Pinedale, Kemmerer, Evanston areas where alot of our deer winter. The condition of the feed grounds are poor. A few large burns to increase the quality of the winter forage would go a long ways and as stated above, changes in hunting would be helpful.

I'm not a biologist, but don't think a few doe tags for youth hunters would be a bad thing and then maybe a 4 point or better restriction on bucks for a few years/ or just plain decrease the quota. Get the buck to doe ratios up and maybe more of the younger bucks well into adulthood. I really hate to see the opportunities to hunt for the youth decreased. We have a small window to introduce them to , and get them hooked on, big game hunting. Something I'd far rather see them doing than what many that age are...
 
Here is an action plan for the G&F:

1. Limit residents
2. Buy back some of the outfitters licenses
3. Limit the area to a 4 point or better for 3 years
4. Issue more bear tags
5. Encourage more cougar hunts
6. Bring back sheep grazing in region H
7. Limit roads in the winter range

Not rocket science, I guess I should send off my comments to the idiots that attempt to run the place.
 
All great points Aspen...let me add one more to your list.

8. Eliminate ATV travel in the entire Wyoming and Salt River Ranges...too much abuse and too easy of access to (used-to-be) prime high country basins.
 
Question on #6

Could you explain why sheep grazing should be brought back in Region H? When did they stop sheep grazing?

Thanks for the other insight.

Nino
 
RE: Question on #6

LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-06 AT 07:16PM (MST)[p]"Eliminate ATV travel in the entire Wyoming and Salt River Ranges...too much abuse and too easy of access to (used-to-be) prime high country basins. "

Isn't that the truth. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a spot where there isn't somebody's custom made trail or where you couldn't see one within a mile. Used to be if a person was willing to hike a couple of miles, you could get into some great hunting. Now you hike a few miles to see fresh ATV trails and hear the drone of engines.

If they would just allow more lions to be taken, the hound hunters would take care of it and if they couldn't and they'd allow us to take one with a trap, that would definately help. G&F maintains that the current lion population is healthy. When people are routinely seeing them during the day, and they are wandering into towns, I tend to think we have too many cats.
 
RE: Question on #6

I am a little long winded on this one but I wanted you all to get a clear idea of what I meant.

Okay, so off the bat the idea of bringing back sheep grazing doesn't sound logical but check this out. I have 3 good reasons for wanting this and this is almost as tactful as PETA and the anti gunners using the wolves to take away hunting and your guns. Here are the 3 reasons.

1. It gets rid of bears. A few years ago a grizz mama and a cub were removed from the Deadman peak area of the Wyoming Range because they were eating sheep that were grazing there in the summer. The bears were in the backcountry and the F&G had to go in there, remove the bears, and then haul them out. Not too bad for the deer right? This has happened many many times over the last 30 years and will continue as long as there are sheep grazing there.

2. It gets rid of yotes. When you are a sheep hearder the last thing you want to hear at night is yotes howling at the moon close to your flocks. When I am in the backcountry I am trying to be quiet as to not run off the bucks hanging on the peaks so I never shoot the yotes I see. But, during the summer, the sheep hearders shoot each and every yote they see. Not too bad for the deer right? Even on a conservative estimate this must save a TON of deer and will continue to as long as there are sheep grazing there.

3. It usually keeps the areas from being designated as wilderness and as "suitable for endangered species." Look up the Willow Creek area in area H on the internet and soon you will find out that the area was designated as such 2 years ago when the Forest Service bought out one of the sheep grazing permits. Now the tree huggers have had the area added to the Grizzly Bear Management Program and the Wolf Management Program. Not too good for the deer right? Here come the grizz and wolves and you can't stop it now. Once a grazing permit is retired and the area is added to the governments list of useful places to put endangered species, good luck getting it back.

Lastly, and possibly the most important, the 60's 70's and 80's saw very high amounts of grazing by sheep in the high country in region H and G. Those were also some of the best years of deer hunting in that area. So, deductively you could come to the conclusion that there was enough summer range for the deer and the sheep to co exist. In support of this arguement would be that I hunted there this year, in those areas that don't have sheep grazin anymore, and there was sooooo much extra grass for the animals it was amazing. The deer do not use even a 10th of what is available. There is more waist high grass in that area in the Summer than I could believe the first time I went in there. The problem of feed does not exist on the Summer Range, it exists on the Winter range.

The enviro's and anti gunners use the wolf to further their interests, let's not be naieve. Use the sheep and cattle to protect our areas and rights. I know the initial reaction is to think sheep and deer don't mix, but let's look at the arguments I just wrote and decide if it makes any sense.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
RE: Question on #6

This may come as a shock to some people but grazing doesn't hurt deer populations. Deer don't eat grass. Grazing the grass allows other types of forage more suitable for deer to flourish.

The best deer hunting we found last year is S. Idaho was in an area that had been heavily grazed by cattle. There were deer everywhere. The worst deer hunting was in an area that has been closed to grazing for several years. Lots of grass, very few deer.

Also, the amount of active AUM's (grazing units)on public lands are at lower levels than in the last 40-50 years, yet the deer are still struggling. I don't believe cutting back on grazing has had any positive effect on deer. Elk may be another story, but not the deer.
 
RE: Question on #6

There's a pretty good snowstorm in Northern Nevada tonight, and its heading right for WY. Although it's great for our deer heards because we've had a warm winter, its probabbly bad news for WY, SE Idaho, and SW WY deer. Hope they get through the next few weeks.
 
RE: Question on #6

That is good info idhunters, we have found the same thing to be true.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 

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