Answer my stupid question.

H

huntsd

Guest
I keep reading posts that say the bull to cow ratios are too high. If I'm reading this correctly some places have too many bulls compared to cows on a unit. The question is what is the desired ratio and why is having too many bulls a bad thing? Probably a stupid question but I'm just trying to learn.
 
Ratios are a very sticky area and seem to vary widely depending on many factors.
I find it funny how the states pet elk herd (Deseret) is kept at a 1:1 ratio and never gets below 1:3 yet is arguably the healthiest herd in the state, if not beyond.








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Bull:cow ratios on very controlled PRIVATE land is very different than bull:cow ratios on PUBLIC land.

On public land, high ratios mean fewer calves being born each year. This means less opportunity for the public hunters. A herd on any given unit has a set population objective that has to be maintained at/below said objective, so a herd that is forced to carry excess bulls due to absurd harvest age objectives will have fewer cows in the mix. Fewer cows, again means fewer calves. Fewer calves means fewer new bulls being recruited into the herd. Fewer bulls being recruited into the herd means fewer bulls available to harvest down the road. It's a vicious cycle, one that neither nature nor biologists prefer. The other risk of a herd having excess bulls is that is disease, drought, or predators were to cause a big die-off, there would be fewer cows to build the herd back up.
 
Just opinion, I agree perfectly with what hoytme said about cows and calves. I would just add that one thing that can be carefully managed on private ground that can not be on public is genetics. I believe that there are many old bulls in Utah that never get looked at by hunters because they are not as good genetically. I don't know the answer to the problem but we as hunters try for the best genetics we can find which hurts the herd unless there are a lot of calves being born every years, with hopefully a few of them have great genetics.
 
I don't think genetics is a factor anywhere in Utah except on high fence farms.

Another thing about DLL versus public land, public land has population objectives that MUST be adhered to legally, no such limits apply yo DLL. So, DLL can harvest as many bulls/cows as they see fit, that luxury is not available for public land game management.
 
>Just opinion, I agree perfectly with
>what hoytme said about cows
>and calves. I would
>just add that one thing
>that can be carefully managed
>on private ground that can
>not be on public is
>genetics. I believe that
>there are many old bulls
>in Utah that never get
>looked at by hunters because
>they are not as good
>genetically. I don't know
>the answer to the problem
>but we as hunters try
>for the best genetics we
>can find which hurts the
>herd unless there are a
>lot of calves being born
>every years, with hopefully a
>few of them have great
>genetics.
More calves being born just ends up meaning that many more "junk bulls" that no one will harvest, just like horseguy mentioned above. We keep skimming the cream off the top through trophy hunting and letting inferior bulls gobble up resources and doing the rutting.
No matter how we dice it up, we still have to kill bulls of all sizes and shapes.
A "trophy" will be the lucky few who run into a perfect 380" bull.

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]
 
>I don't think genetics is a
>factor anywhere in Utah except
>on high fence farms.
>
>Another thing about DLL versus public
>land, public land has population
>objectives that MUST be adhered
>to legally, no such limits
>apply yo DLL. So, DLL
>can harvest as many bulls/cows
>as they see fit, that
>luxury is not available for
>public land game management.

Your very close Pro, but not exactly correct.
DLL has the same "laws" as public land (in a biological sense). Keep in mind that DLL is the largest cattle ranch west of the Mississippi, there are just as many cattle there as say the Dutton or any other unit, therfore must be managed in the same mannor to accomidate ALL livestock and wildlife.
DLL has a perfect balance, bar none.
http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]
 
>Bull:cow ratios on very controlled PRIVATE
>land is very different than
>bull:cow ratios on PUBLIC land.
>
>
>On public land, high ratios mean
>fewer calves being born each
>year. This means less opportunity
>for the public hunters. A
>herd on any given unit
>has a set population objective
>that has to be maintained
>at/below said objective, so a
>herd that is forced to
>carry excess bulls due to
>absurd harvest age objectives will
>have fewer cows in the
>mix. Fewer cows, again means
>fewer calves. Fewer calves means
>fewer new bulls being recruited
>into the herd. Fewer bulls
>being recruited into the herd
>means fewer bulls available to
>harvest down the road. It's
>a vicious cycle, one that
>neither nature nor biologists prefer.
>The other risk of a
>herd having excess bulls is
>that is disease, drought, or
>predators were to cause a
>big die-off, there would be
>fewer cows to build the
>herd back up.


What is the ideal ratio for a healthy herd on public land and on private land? I don't know how you can figure this out but what is the ratio of a heard that is not influenced at all by hunters? Mother nature's ratio I guess I could say.
 
Competition!!! Ecologist and Biologist will always say that too many bulls in a herd causes to much competition. This is because bulls spend large amounts of energy keeping other bulls out of their cows, and that energy could be better put to use in breeding. Also it doesn't really matter is a small bull or a big bull breeds the cow very much, which is something a lot of sportsman don't believe. I believe that if the little bull has the right set of genes to pass on then they will be just as good as those of a bigger bull if not possibly better.

States set ratios to give them a set point as to how a herd is doing from year to year. It is a way of having an average and allowing enough hunters to go out and hunt according to how the bulls are ratio wise the next year with respect to the average.

In my opinion the bull ratios are too high because we allot to may cow tags in Utah. If we cut back on cow tags the elk populations would sky rocket, I promise.

But that means no cow tags, with is a very easy way to fill the freezer.

That is the best I can think of as why they think bull ratios are too high and why.

Dillon
 
Several things come in to play when ratios are set, and it can vary from year to year depending on hunter success, current bull to cow ratios, habitat (or the lack thereof) and a major factor.....livestock grazing groups.
It's a year to year balancing act that is never dead on.









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As said above, too high a bull to cow ratio will result in broken racks, so that Perfect 380 bull thats missin 9" off his 3rd on the left side isn't a trophy anymore in some folks mind.

IMO there is no right or wrong answer. I hunted a unit where I saw dozens and dozens of bulls but the biggest herd had 4 actual cows (not countin calves)

In NV I saw bigger herds, better bull cow ratios IMO but more broke antlers. Mineral deficiency?? Don't know, I'm no expert.

As a NR in every state that offers quality elk huntin, I leave this fight for the locals and just try to take advantage of the situation the best I can. I'd rather have a tag this year with an out of wack bull:cow ratio than wait 5 years to hunt the unit with a "perfect" ratio.
 
And Pro,
Remind everybody why the Bull to cow ratio is out of Wack?
GEEZUS!
 
It's all theory! Most of the time the theory is exactly the right thing (case in point; DLL). However, there is always something that skews that theory and each individual area needs a custom management strategy. A better example is the Paunsagaunt elk herd vs the Panguitch Lake herd. THey border each other but the PL unit is A LOT stronger than the Pauns unit. Why is that? They use the same management stategies so why aren't the herds similar?

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Hey Jim, i know that answer!
It's reverse osmosis to everywhere else.
There's too many deer on the Pauns and they are running all the elk off! ;-)









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You can look at areas where hunting, or very little of it takes place to see what 'nature' determines is the ideal bull:cow ratio. On Antelope Island the buck:doe ratio is right around 35:100.

As for the Paunsaugunt versus Panguitch Lake, habitat is very different on the two units, the PL has over 1000 elk on it ans the Pauns has less than 200 elk on it. Funny thing for those who support harvest age objectives, the PL is at 5.7 for the last 3 years while the Pauns is at 6.0 for the same time frame. Tell me again how harvest age means squat! And they do NOT use the same management strategy, the DWR has openly stated they want ZERO elk on the Paunsaugunt.

Yes, they do indeed run cattle on DLL, but they do NOT have state mandates that dictate how many elk they can have on DLL at any given time. And for all those 'extra' junk bulls being in the mix if "too many" bulls are allowed to mature, issue management tags!

Bull:cow ratios are out of whack because hunters have mistakenly thought that having harvest age averages in excess of 8 years of age is needed, therefor forcing units to carry excess bulls in order to get to harvest age objectives, and since populations must stay at/under population objectives the DWR has NO CHOICE but to issue cow permits.
 
"And for all those 'extra' junk bulls being in the mix if "too many" bulls are allowed to mature, issue management tags!

You really want to issue management tags for the 25000 280-310" 6x6 bulls that no one wants that will never really be anything better??
I think not.


"Yes, they do indeed run cattle on DLL, but they do NOT have state mandates that dictate how many elk they can have on DLL at any given time."

This could not be any further from the truth.
They most certainly do dictate how many elk can be on there at any given time, that ranch is most certainly ran by the state ;-)








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Hey Pro,
Comes a time when a few cows might need to be thinned,but don't stomp a unit clear out because the cow killer hunts are generating lots of money.
You ever heard of proper management instead of piss poor management?
 
"You really want to issue management tags for the 25000 280-310" 6x6 bulls that no one wants that will never really be anything better??
I think not."

25,000? Where did you come up with that number? At the most, 1200 spikes are killed each year, so help me out with this 25,000 junk bull theory.

"Comes a time when a few cows might need to be thinned,but don't stomp a unit clear out because the cow killer hunts are generating lots of money.
You ever heard of proper management instead of piss poor management? "

I agree, so we should get rid of harvest age objectives immediately! We should issue a pile more bull tags, we should stop worrying about how much funding the special interest groups can garner from "piss poor management" that worries more about rack size than herd health! Great idea, glad you thought of it.
 
PL vs Pauns is NOT a habitat issue. Funny how 3/4 of the state of Arizona has the same habitat as the Pauns and the elk thrive. I think you do have a point with the Division not wanting the elk herd to grow down there but why? Are they afraid that the elk will take over? That goes against their stated logic that deer and elk intermingle well. It's a crap shoot on half the units in the state. I don't think I've seen a "5 year plan" go the full 5 years yet. I'm all for opportunity on these units, which is what the management plan is trying to accomplish I think, but drastic changes are BAD! Look at all of the drastic changes that the DWR & wildlife board have put into affect. The Vernon unit - gave out waaaaaaay too many tags the first year it opened back up and it almost set that unit back to where it was before they closed it. They lifted the 3 point or better hunt on Book Cliffs and anialated that unit within a couple of years forcing a closure. The infamous "Fish Lake massacre" - no more needs to be said about that one. It's a scary deal when we make drastic changes Ease into this thing. We should have done something different several years ago. I'm no biologist, just an avid hunter that sees a need for some change in just about every aspect of hunting we have here in Utah.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
>"You really want to issue management
>tags for the 25000 280-310"
>6x6 bulls that no one
>wants that will never really
>be anything better??
>I think not."
>
>25,000? Where did you come up
>with that number? At the
>most, 1200 spikes are killed
>each year, so help me
>out with this 25,000 junk
>bull theory.
>
>"Comes a time when a few
>cows might need to be
>thinned,but don't stomp a unit
>clear out because the cow
>killer hunts are generating lots
>of money.
>You ever heard of proper management
>instead of piss poor management?
>"
>
>I agree, so we should get
>rid of harvest age objectives
>immediately! We should issue a
>pile more bull tags, we
>should stop worrying about how
>much funding the special interest
>groups can garner from "piss
>poor management" that worries more
>about rack size than herd
>health! Great idea, glad you
>thought of it.

Your right Bart, you always are, no?? Lol
So my number was just a tossed out guess at how many "junk bulls" there are that YOU suggested need to be attached to a management tag, was that not the statement made??
I sincerely apologize for not being as good as you with exact numbers, no one is.
But I wasn't talking about "spikes", i clearly stated 280-310" "junk" bulls.
I guarantee you there are a hell of a lot more of those "junk bulls" than there are spikes, maybe not 25000, but definately more than those 1200 dead spikes, and their still living brothers.
I'm just not interested in hearing about 1200 spikes, they are already dead thank you ;-)
http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]
 
SJ needs some of those 5x6 and 5x5( old Bulls) killed so how about a mangement hunt or two.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-10 AT 12:43PM (MST)[p]Bess/B_BOP_A_LU_LU

with all the piss poor management we have in this state. I have never herd your recommendations on fixing anything. This is your chance!

How would you issue more opportunity without shooting the quality out?

How would you fix the bonus point butt plug?

how do you keep a unit that is at objective in elk numbers from going over objective with out killing cows?

how did you feel about the management tags?

explain to me why we allow elk to be hunted in the rut with rifles and it works and it would never work for deer?

Why is spike hunting for elk awesome and spike hunting for deer gay?

these are all ?? that can be answered and if they were answered we all could benefit from.


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Nets are for fish!!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-10
>AT 12:43?PM (MST)
>
>Bess/B_BOP_A_LU_LU
>
>with all the piss poor management
>we have in this state.
>I have never herd your
>recommendations on fixing anything. This
>is your chance!
>
>How would you issue more opportunity
>without shooting the quality out?
>
>
>How would you fix the bonus
>point butt plug?
>
>how do you keep a unit
>that is at objective in
>elk numbers from going over
>objective with out killing cows?
>
>
>how did you feel about the
>management tags?
>
>explain to me why we allow
>elk to be hunted in
>the rut with rifles and
>it works and it would
>never work for deer?
>
>Why is spike hunting for elk
>awesome and spike hunting for
>deer gay?
>
>these are all ?? that can
>be answered and if they
>were answered we all could
>benefit from.
>
>
>
4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

>Nets are for fish!!

i'm waitning on this one:) it outta be good!


it blows me away listening to all the utah backbitting.[if i even came close to spelling that right.]

what sucks is, as a NON-res, people DREAM of hunting utah, but residents think it sucks.

YOU REALLY NEED TO COME AND HUNT OREGON........

i'll bet you all would be bar buddies before the first night, say ing" boy i'm glad are hunting doesn't such this much.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-10 AT 01:06PM (MST)[p]Actually according to DWR statistics, in 2008 rifle and muzzleloader hunters killed 1,617 spike elk. That does not count spikes that might have been killed on the archery hunts or in limited entry units.
 
Colors always come out in a thread like this. The question was about bull to cow ratios. Not how to grow a 380 bull. Those are different questions (and in my opinion what is wrong with hunting in general and increasingly in this state). What do broken tines have to do with health of elk herds? What does a number(score) have to do with an elk herd? Genetics dictates scores. In a perfect world we would cow hunt in the spring and kill only cows without calves. Killing cows in the late fall kills the cow and possibly one or two calves. If you increase the number of "hooves" on the ground, without any other variables than just random luck, you increase the number of scoreable bulls. However regardless of ratios, there are only going to be so many 380 bulls state wide, again genetics.
 
Don't look now hossblur, but I pretty much agree with your post here.:D This is just my oppinion but I think it's a pretty logical one. I have said this many times. Reduce the cow hunt numbers. I mean for hell sakes, 1500 cow permits on the Fish Lake unit? Really? Who's the DA doing the numbers on this anyway. Puppet 1 or Puppet 2? Then we have to stop killing spikes and increasing big bull tags at the same time. I agree when you said genetics dictate the score. The problem is, when you are shaving off the young and the old, what do you have. Biologists will tell you that you can't shoot out a genetic pool. I call BS on that one. The more you shave numbers off both ends there will finally be a middle point that you come to and the size will be drastically down from where you started. I haven't seen the cow numbers yet but that will dictate whether they remotely know what they are doing. Our good buddy Nebo who sits on the board has kept us pretty informed on some of the decisions but we'll see where they are going to take our elk herd.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
I don;t think it will affect the genetics, but it WILL create a major void in the mature bull pool from which to choose a 'trophy' from. Raising harvest age objectives is going to make things worse, not better.
 
Obviously hell has frozen over BULL!!!! The only point I would make is that it doesn't matter the age of the single bull breeding. A 3 year old bull breeding a cow passes on his genetics, which will dictate his final size, not his current size. Now, a three year old bull breeding cows is what has happened on the Manti with the way to many draw tags, not to mention the pile given to the auctions(still have never understood why killing of one unit improves Utahs elk herds) have really hurt a unit that was coming into its own a few years back.
 
>SWB - you've been on this
>site how long now and
>you haven't heard the cats
>oppinion on what to do?
> Well, you only have
>a little over 10,000 posts
>to find it and I
>don't think you'll have to
>look far.


He has never answered those questions.
 
>>SWB - you've been on this
>>site how long now and
>>you haven't heard the cats
>>oppinion on what to do?
>> Well, you only have
>>a little over 10,000 posts
>>to find it and I
>>don't think you'll have to
>>look far.
>
>
>He has never answered those questions.


And he never will!
 

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