Arizona Draw Worth Getting In?
- Thread starter upmuley
- Start date
It's only a waste if you figure it so. Not making any attempt to try to get a tag while you can would be a bigger mistake in my eyes. You can still get drawn for a tag out here but if you only put in for the creme de la creme expect to wait. There's nothing wrong with selecting some lesser units until you can accumulate some points, and then go for the best. You may just get selected for a hunt or two along the way.
POINTS DO NOT MEAN ANYTHING in AZ. You have a decent chance of drawing a tag without points, even in the top units. In AZ you cannot hunt lesser units and build points, they take your points with any tag you draw. If you apply with 3 points for a bull tag 1st choice, then a cow tag second, and you get your second choice, you will lose all your points. No matter what choice you draw, you will lose all points. The only hunt I am aware of that does not lose points are the population management hunts and I believe leftover tags in some of the low density units (East of Flagstaff). However, there is not likely to be leftover tags, I think there were the first year or two on these hunts. If you don't apply you can't get drawn.
K
ktc
Guest
Absolutely! In Arizona you can hunt big bulls every 5 years or so.......
K
ktc
Guest
I would not say it is that easy either. If you have followed the Utah elk debate you will see my comment are purely sarcastic.
PleaseDear
Long Time Member
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Heck yes... like posted above...Az. is a Bonus point state... every year guys/gals with 0 or low point amounts draw out....
Sure ya got the Nerd types that are all about 'Doom and Gloom' with some speculative math formula that results in all draw tags going only to the max. point pool...... in X amount of years in to the future sometime...
Go for it for sure!!
Robb
Sure ya got the Nerd types that are all about 'Doom and Gloom' with some speculative math formula that results in all draw tags going only to the max. point pool...... in X amount of years in to the future sometime...
Go for it for sure!!
Robb
nochawk
Moderator
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This was posted this morning. just alittle FYI. Going to hurt? or help? what ya think?
ARIZONA RESIDENT HUNTER ALERT
In January, Representative Jerry Weiers introduced legislation that would cap nonresidents at no more than 10% of the hunts in any drawing. Insuring resident hunters (ourselves and our children ) would have at least 90% of this states hunting opportunities. This legislation strengthens a new Commission rule that was adopted last winter.
This could be a tremendous gain for resident hunters!
This legislation has moved through the House of Representatives and Senate with incredibly strong support. In the next few days, it will be sent to the Governor for signing.
The only glitch in this process has been a split vote of the Arizona Game & Fish Commission. Three members of the five member Commission do not believe this legislation is necessary. Those three Commissioners, believe the Commission, and only the Commission, should have any say on legislation relating to hunting, fishing, wildlife management and more importantly, who gets to hunt. Unfortunately, on Tuesday these three Commissioners asked the Governor to veto HB2127.
The reason this legislation was developed in the first place, is because of the failure of an existing Commission rule that capped nonresidents at 10%.
When challenged in federal court, by outfitter George Taulman, the Commission's 10% nonresident cap rule was found to be unconstitutional. This almost eight year legal battle, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars, ended with nonresidents being given equal status with residents in our hunt drawings.
In the last two drawings (2004 & 2005), nonresidents have been drawing many of our most coveted permits. I some instances they are even drawing more permits in a unit than residents.
The only thing that saved resident hunt opportunities, was a ground swell of concern from hunters throughout the west, combined with the strong support of western federal legislators, who rose to our defense and passed
legislation in Congress, once again giving states clear authority to regulate hunting and fishing. President Bush quickly signed the legislation into law and the states were once again in control.
As I mentioned earlier the Commission quickly adopted a new rule capping nonresident hunters, and we commend them for their action; but this time, after the past fiasco, we want even more protection.
This is why we have asked for statutory protection and why Representative Weiers introduced HB 2127. The Legislature has strongly supported this additional protection. Now we must ask the Governor to do the same.
We have a window of no more than a week to get our support for HB 2127 to the Governor.
Below is the Governors web address and phone number.
If resident sportsmen want this legislation signed by the Governor, they need to let her know they support it. Please don't delay do this now.
Ask Her to SIGN HB 2127 and protect resident hunting opportunities.
If the Governor does not want to go against her Commission she could always just let HB2127 become law without her signature. What would be tragic for resident hunters, and incredibly hard to understand, is if she would choose to veto HB2127.
Governor Janet Napolitano's website, http://www.governor.state.az.us/
Then go to the left side of the home page to: Contact the Governor.
Governor's office number 602-542-4331
Please do not delay, contact the Governor immediately. Protect resident opportunity to hunt in Arizona.
In support of HB2127:
Arizona Antelope Foundation
Arizona Deer Association
Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society
Arizona Elk Society
Mohave Sportsman Club
Yuma Valley Rod & Gun Club
and Others
Nate
ARIZONA RESIDENT HUNTER ALERT
In January, Representative Jerry Weiers introduced legislation that would cap nonresidents at no more than 10% of the hunts in any drawing. Insuring resident hunters (ourselves and our children ) would have at least 90% of this states hunting opportunities. This legislation strengthens a new Commission rule that was adopted last winter.
This could be a tremendous gain for resident hunters!
This legislation has moved through the House of Representatives and Senate with incredibly strong support. In the next few days, it will be sent to the Governor for signing.
The only glitch in this process has been a split vote of the Arizona Game & Fish Commission. Three members of the five member Commission do not believe this legislation is necessary. Those three Commissioners, believe the Commission, and only the Commission, should have any say on legislation relating to hunting, fishing, wildlife management and more importantly, who gets to hunt. Unfortunately, on Tuesday these three Commissioners asked the Governor to veto HB2127.
The reason this legislation was developed in the first place, is because of the failure of an existing Commission rule that capped nonresidents at 10%.
When challenged in federal court, by outfitter George Taulman, the Commission's 10% nonresident cap rule was found to be unconstitutional. This almost eight year legal battle, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars, ended with nonresidents being given equal status with residents in our hunt drawings.
In the last two drawings (2004 & 2005), nonresidents have been drawing many of our most coveted permits. I some instances they are even drawing more permits in a unit than residents.
The only thing that saved resident hunt opportunities, was a ground swell of concern from hunters throughout the west, combined with the strong support of western federal legislators, who rose to our defense and passed
legislation in Congress, once again giving states clear authority to regulate hunting and fishing. President Bush quickly signed the legislation into law and the states were once again in control.
As I mentioned earlier the Commission quickly adopted a new rule capping nonresident hunters, and we commend them for their action; but this time, after the past fiasco, we want even more protection.
This is why we have asked for statutory protection and why Representative Weiers introduced HB 2127. The Legislature has strongly supported this additional protection. Now we must ask the Governor to do the same.
We have a window of no more than a week to get our support for HB 2127 to the Governor.
Below is the Governors web address and phone number.
If resident sportsmen want this legislation signed by the Governor, they need to let her know they support it. Please don't delay do this now.
Ask Her to SIGN HB 2127 and protect resident hunting opportunities.
If the Governor does not want to go against her Commission she could always just let HB2127 become law without her signature. What would be tragic for resident hunters, and incredibly hard to understand, is if she would choose to veto HB2127.
Governor Janet Napolitano's website, http://www.governor.state.az.us/
Then go to the left side of the home page to: Contact the Governor.
Governor's office number 602-542-4331
Please do not delay, contact the Governor immediately. Protect resident opportunity to hunt in Arizona.
In support of HB2127:
Arizona Antelope Foundation
Arizona Deer Association
Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society
Arizona Elk Society
Mohave Sportsman Club
Yuma Valley Rod & Gun Club
and Others
Nate
N
NMHUNTNUTT1
Guest
Yes its worth getting in , some one has to draw , you can't win if you don't play . I hear every year of this guy or that guy getting drawn with no points or very few , if you ever hope to go to AZ , then you got to enter and buy the general license , thats my theory ....
Gator
Long Time Member
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- 18,131
The only thing that saved resident hunt opportunities, was a ground swell of concern from hunters throughout the west, combined with the strong support of western federal legislators, who rose to our defense and passed
legislation in Congress, once again giving states clear authority to regulate hunting and fishing. President Bush quickly signed the legislation into law and the states were once again in control.
Those same people who came to your defense is the same people you want to cut out of more tags(hunters thoughout the west).I guess we should all say thanks.
legislation in Congress, once again giving states clear authority to regulate hunting and fishing. President Bush quickly signed the legislation into law and the states were once again in control.
Those same people who came to your defense is the same people you want to cut out of more tags(hunters thoughout the west).I guess we should all say thanks.
First, to the posting, AZ is having a definite drought year, despite recent rain. This may not be the best year to get in, but 33, you definitely have a lot of years for great opportunity left and if you surely want to hunt in AZ sometime in the future then you better start soon. Granted, it does depend on the quality of the hunt you want, but for public land DIY or even guided, its hard to beat!
Now for the legislation. This is a difficult topic to debate, as I personally had been opposed to most ANY state or federal ruling and usually have always left this up to those who know best, the Game and Fish department themselves. However, as of late, as with many residents I too have found myself questioning the AZ G&F agendas. Why not limit the non-residents, and for that matter why not limit them in EVERY state since this will only benefit the resident for opportunity. If you want to hunt there so badly then move there yourself! The wealthy who can apply across 20 states every year should only have significant preference in one state IMO, the one where they pay taxes and contribute to their community. We do not want to "CUT" tags, we simply want to limit them in proportion, the same ruling that was in place previously before all of the lawsuit absurdness and we want it set in stone as it was. This same percentage was derived by other states and not as absurd as it sounds so why the debate? With the growing population in AZ, its getting hard enough for residents to draw tags without the high non-resident demand. The Western supporters I do not think support unlimited non-resident hunting, I believe the support was for the state to decide what is best and to leave the Federal courts out of the rulemaking. If we as a state decide 10%, then this is our decision just as the next state should have the final say not the federal court. IMO 10% is generous enough and was never a debate until hunting guides got involved. AZ has no preference toward guides so this is how the system becomes under attack and questioned; a guides income and interstate trade and all sorts of other implications come into legal wording. If they want to guide, then tell them to recommend their clients to move here too or they should guide elsewhere!
We all want great opporunity and want to apply for the prime hunts in the prime states I know, but this mentality leaves many lower income and time restricted residents with having to apply for a difficult and far from quality hunt just to get drawn and this in not how it should work. If we don't start to limit NR hunters (and only to previous 10% standards), its just a matter of time until we need a modified system to account for the modified bonus point system, to account for the resident hunters which is where every states loyalty should be. Just my hunting philosophy though?
Now for the legislation. This is a difficult topic to debate, as I personally had been opposed to most ANY state or federal ruling and usually have always left this up to those who know best, the Game and Fish department themselves. However, as of late, as with many residents I too have found myself questioning the AZ G&F agendas. Why not limit the non-residents, and for that matter why not limit them in EVERY state since this will only benefit the resident for opportunity. If you want to hunt there so badly then move there yourself! The wealthy who can apply across 20 states every year should only have significant preference in one state IMO, the one where they pay taxes and contribute to their community. We do not want to "CUT" tags, we simply want to limit them in proportion, the same ruling that was in place previously before all of the lawsuit absurdness and we want it set in stone as it was. This same percentage was derived by other states and not as absurd as it sounds so why the debate? With the growing population in AZ, its getting hard enough for residents to draw tags without the high non-resident demand. The Western supporters I do not think support unlimited non-resident hunting, I believe the support was for the state to decide what is best and to leave the Federal courts out of the rulemaking. If we as a state decide 10%, then this is our decision just as the next state should have the final say not the federal court. IMO 10% is generous enough and was never a debate until hunting guides got involved. AZ has no preference toward guides so this is how the system becomes under attack and questioned; a guides income and interstate trade and all sorts of other implications come into legal wording. If they want to guide, then tell them to recommend their clients to move here too or they should guide elsewhere!
We all want great opporunity and want to apply for the prime hunts in the prime states I know, but this mentality leaves many lower income and time restricted residents with having to apply for a difficult and far from quality hunt just to get drawn and this in not how it should work. If we don't start to limit NR hunters (and only to previous 10% standards), its just a matter of time until we need a modified system to account for the modified bonus point system, to account for the resident hunters which is where every states loyalty should be. Just my hunting philosophy though?
Nate if you take the time to read and understand the bill you may see it's intent. It's to offer another layer on insulation from lawsuits like USO. The biologist's still propose the tag allocation for each unit for the commission to approve. I doubt the groups that would like to see this passed (see above) would be foolish enough to put game management into the legislatures hands.
DonMartin
Very Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-06 AT 06:11PM (MST)[p]Boys:
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you don't have max bonus points for deer, or early rifle elk you CAN't draw one of these premium tags, and here's why.
We have this thing called the 20% set aside which means that all sportsmen (resident and non-resident alike) who have maximum bonus points are put into one pool and 20% of the tags in each unit are drawn.
Let's use Unit 13B, the most sought after deer tag in Arizona as an example.
This year, there will be 75 tags issued. Under the 10% rule, NR's can get a MAXIMUM of 7 of those tags.
The 20% set aside drawing will see 15 tags given out on that draw before any other tags are drawn.
Right now, there are MORE NR's with max deer and elk bonus points than AZ residents!
So all the guys (NR's and residents) with max bonus points are going into that first draw. With there being more NR's than residents in this pool, don't you think that the NR's will get their 7 tags out of those 15? I called G&F and spoke to the draw section to see if in fact all 7 of those NR tags COULD be issued in that set aside drawing. He assured me they could. The 10% cap doesn't apply in this case...
I get the draw list every year in the course of my business and I bet that you will see that every tag available to NR's on this hunt will be gone in the 20% set aside drawing.
That means that if you don't have the max, then you CAN'T draw one of these tags, as there will be NONE left for NR's in the second draw. Can you draw in other units that have more tags? Sure.
Same thing applies for early rifle bull. With limited tags (10-30 in most hunts) and only 10% available to NR's, when they do that 20% set aside, then the NR's with max bonus points will get the 1-2-or 3 tags that are available. You others are out of luck!
Do the math and you tell me I'm wrong. I've already brought this to the attention of G&F and so far haven't got much of a reaction..
They say you guys shouldn't just apply for premium hunts.
Better look at archery elk hunts with over 100 tags and the early Kaibab with the 500 tags they're gonna offer this year if you have less than max points.
That's just my assessment, let me know if it's flawed...
Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you don't have max bonus points for deer, or early rifle elk you CAN't draw one of these premium tags, and here's why.
We have this thing called the 20% set aside which means that all sportsmen (resident and non-resident alike) who have maximum bonus points are put into one pool and 20% of the tags in each unit are drawn.
Let's use Unit 13B, the most sought after deer tag in Arizona as an example.
This year, there will be 75 tags issued. Under the 10% rule, NR's can get a MAXIMUM of 7 of those tags.
The 20% set aside drawing will see 15 tags given out on that draw before any other tags are drawn.
Right now, there are MORE NR's with max deer and elk bonus points than AZ residents!
So all the guys (NR's and residents) with max bonus points are going into that first draw. With there being more NR's than residents in this pool, don't you think that the NR's will get their 7 tags out of those 15? I called G&F and spoke to the draw section to see if in fact all 7 of those NR tags COULD be issued in that set aside drawing. He assured me they could. The 10% cap doesn't apply in this case...
I get the draw list every year in the course of my business and I bet that you will see that every tag available to NR's on this hunt will be gone in the 20% set aside drawing.
That means that if you don't have the max, then you CAN'T draw one of these tags, as there will be NONE left for NR's in the second draw. Can you draw in other units that have more tags? Sure.
Same thing applies for early rifle bull. With limited tags (10-30 in most hunts) and only 10% available to NR's, when they do that 20% set aside, then the NR's with max bonus points will get the 1-2-or 3 tags that are available. You others are out of luck!
Do the math and you tell me I'm wrong. I've already brought this to the attention of G&F and so far haven't got much of a reaction..
They say you guys shouldn't just apply for premium hunts.
Better look at archery elk hunts with over 100 tags and the early Kaibab with the 500 tags they're gonna offer this year if you have less than max points.
That's just my assessment, let me know if it's flawed...
Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters
MNHunter
Active Member
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Don, you are right though it may take a few years to see the full effect. DonV has been saying the same thing for a while now and people are starting to listen. It will definitely happen in the hardest to draw/best units first.
"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
