Washington Desert Unit
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clyde
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Why? If my son drew that tag I would be really excited too see him have a chance at a tremendous buck. just like you and me. little fellars that hunt, put there shoes on one at a time too!!
ridgerunner
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I'm all for giving kids a great quality experience out of the get go, the odds of drawing that tag are so low I doubt it will affect many people, plus the kids aren't going to be trophy hunting, most will probably shoot the first buck they see.
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slider
Guest
Not my kid? Good Luck
Like most of the fathers and most hunters on this site, I would love to see more youth opportunities especially with antlered hunts in good units. Best deer of my 41 years so far was the whitetail doe my 10 year old shot 2 falls back. With 2 does under her belt now I think she wants a buck.
Good hunting,
Mike
Good hunting,
Mike
LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-06 AT 09:52AM (MST)[p]I think it's great to get kids involved with and excited about hunting, and when my daughter is old enough I hope there are still plenty of good opportunities for her to have a good hunt (she's 3 months old.) But, I don't see a need for kids to get preference for special permits in units where the number of permits is extremely limited anyway. Let them have a good portion of the antlerless permits, but the buck permits? I'd rather see an older hunter who doesn't have many years of hunting left draw a Desert buck permit instead of a young kid who has lots of years left to hunt for a trophy buck. Besides kids won't have the appreciation for big mature bucks if they kill one in their first year or two of hunting.
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Colville
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I have a slightly different take and I know people will play the child card after I say it... No one should get a better shot at a given tag than another, howz that? Boy or man we are all citizens and no preference or artificial barrier should help or harm one vs another. I understand the desire to get kids into the sport and support it but I think that's a matter for private organizations not the WDFW. There's plenty of antlerless oportunity in this state where success can be highly improved for the youngster. A young person should not get a better bite at the apple of such a highly valuable and highly limited (PULBIC) resource simply because they are young.
I would support allowing a father/mother to transfer a tag they've drawn to (only) their son or daughter if that was their choice.
I would support allowing a father/mother to transfer a tag they've drawn to (only) their son or daughter if that was their choice.
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kirkl
Guest
Im with bob d. and colville on this one. Hopefully my daughter will be hunting in a couple years and I wouldnt want her to get preference over somebody that has tons of points built up and has been at it for a long time hoping to get that monster some day, waiting to get drawn. They can put there time in for does and and other units. Id want my kid to really enjoy that theyve just shot a big 4pt and not just think, great i just shot a buck, they need to grow up and learn to appreciate a big buck just like everybody else on here (me included) dreams about shooting (im still waiting with 9 points).
Just my .02
Just my .02
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clyde
Guest
I still disagree, I wouldn't let my son or daughters shoot a forky or three point. They would only shoot something that's a quality buck. My seven year old undersstands what it means to draw a tag at this magnitude. I understand about them hunting a anterless before going after a buck and thats my plan, but I'm still going to put them in all the draws as well when they pass there hunters ed. I understand it sucks to have max points but I'm no better than anybodys kids. But this is my opinion and not yours. The first thing my son said to me after I got back from my any bull archery hunt was did you find one big enough and after I told him he said, Thats ok, you still have late season to get a spike or cow.
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kirkl
Guest
I guess im with sage rat on this one, ill put my kids in for all buck hunts to like Clyde but i dont think they should get preference in a unit like the desert unit which is strictly managed for trophy deer. I think if a unit is strictly managed for trophys like the desert it should be an equal hunt. Theres tons of units they can do that for kids if they want.
ridgerunner
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I was surprised that they are giving tags to the kids in this unit. I can definately see both sides of the argument though, it is frustrating to be one of 4000+ putting in for a unit and then see the department open up some of the tags to kids and knowing that they will have much better draw odds. Maybe they should have only given 5 tags to the kids and added the extra tags to the general draw for that unit.
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missinMT
Guest
I agree with Colville on this one. Toss all the tags into a hat and let the chips fall where they may. In these "odd" game management, uh, "people management" times, it is sometimes a challenge to understand the thought processes behind the decisions on whether to add or remove tags from certain areas. Is it good science, or just someones "hey, I got a good idea?" sort of thing. Above all, I am left scratching my head sometimes....(no wonder I got no hair left)
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Colville
Guest
rest assured, this will mean that every man in WA with a son/daughter of hunting age that desires that tag will get them Hunters ed and put them in, knowing the odds go WAY up. Then they'll drag their kid along to kill the trophy they always wanted while still leaving their name in the long odds too.
It's a shlt idea to give prference to kids in such a high demand area. It's a shlt idea to give preference to one WA citizen over another on an arbitrary basis (age) for a limited resource. There's tons of ways to get kids into the sport without having to STEAL oportunity from your neighbor and that is exactly what is happening here.
I'm not inclined, but an equal protection suit would likely win against the WDFW.
Seriously, I've never heard a good argument about why one tax paying citizen deserves preference in access or use of a public resource. Let's here one. When did children become a disenfranchised class needing afirmative action quotas in game allocation?
It's a shlt idea to give prference to kids in such a high demand area. It's a shlt idea to give preference to one WA citizen over another on an arbitrary basis (age) for a limited resource. There's tons of ways to get kids into the sport without having to STEAL oportunity from your neighbor and that is exactly what is happening here.
I'm not inclined, but an equal protection suit would likely win against the WDFW.
Seriously, I've never heard a good argument about why one tax paying citizen deserves preference in access or use of a public resource. Let's here one. When did children become a disenfranchised class needing afirmative action quotas in game allocation?
I'm with Colville on this as well! I also see what has happened with the Okanogan youth antlerless permits. It has become a way for adults to shoot deer on their kids tags. We saw this happen several times in Okanogan Co. We ran across one father that had a whole rig loaded with kids. The Dad jumped out of the rig and shot a doe right in the middle of the road. He got back in the rig, gave a kid the gun and sent him out to pick up it up. Over the course of 3 days we saw the same guy do this 4 times. We talked to the local game cop, he checked out the guy and told us that the kids all had youth doe tags. He did say that he was going to investigate farther into our accusations of the father shooting the deer instead of the kids. The game cop said that he has had a lot of complaints about this sort of thing happening in that unit. My friend that lives in Omak has seen it many times. Hell, we didnt have special youth hunts years ogo and I think that some of us became better hunters because of it. We had to learn how to be successful. Give the kids a challenge, shooting does is like killing a cow with a hammer. It gets the job done, but where is the sport in it?
Eric
Eric
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Foothunter
Guest
I see kids pictures all the time with nice sheep and other animals that are killed on very limited draw tags. I have trouble believing that the majority of them know what they have drawn let alone appreciate a sheep hunt. Who knows, when they are older they may not even enjoy hunting and the sheep or deer will have no meaning to them. I feel they should not be allowed to apply for trophy units or bank points until they are 18. I am all for getting them involved but hard to draw trophy units should not apply. As one person stated he would not let his kid shoot a forky or 3 point (who's hunt is it?) As stated the dad says to shoot, kid shoots and he has a nice buck. Antlerless tags are a better way to get involved without all of the pressure.
Well I'm glad to see there's others that share my point of view. Now we all wait to see if this proposed hunt actually happens. I feel like I appreciate hunting more for all the hard work it has taken me. I remember as a kid thinking I'd never ever get my first buck. When I finally did get that little 2 point blacktail it was and still is one of the highlights of my hunting career. I didn't kill my first trophy until years later, in my eyes that's the way it should be...
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clyde
Guest
Hey foothunter, Its the kids hunt, but in a trophy unit like that, would you let your kids shoot something small? not all kids understand what it means of a trophy hunt, but mine does. There are tons of other units for kids too hunt but if my kids wanted too put in for that specific unit and understands what it means, who am I too say no. Old enough too hunt, old enough too choose his hunts. I've been putting in for years and still haven't drawn and probably will not for a long time. But thats life and not all things are fair. Foothunter, around here, don't be afraid to use my name instead of that person. It's just my opinion.
Why is the youth hunt scheduled so early in the year starting Sept 1-15 for muzzleloders. All the other youth hunts are in October. Will the bucks still be in batchelor groups and in velvet. Might be easyer to pattern them. Have any other hunts started this early.
The youth hunters will be hunting the desert unit for a month and a half before anyone else gets a chance to hunt.
Between the adult tags and the youth tags there will be 70 any deer permits. Wont take long to wack a lot of the big boys
The youth hunters will be hunting the desert unit for a month and a half before anyone else gets a chance to hunt.
Between the adult tags and the youth tags there will be 70 any deer permits. Wont take long to wack a lot of the big boys
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Foothunter
Guest
Clyde,
I did not use your name as my post said "most" kids. If my kid drew that tag I would not "want" him to shoot a forky or a 3 pt but if he understands the aspect of the hunt the thought of shooting something small should not be an option to the "kid" regardless of the fathers input. Odds are it is the father paying the license cost, putting the his kid in for the hunt and doing all the research. If I knew the kid could do all of this I would be all for it as it would be clear he is more than dedicated to trophy hunting. If the cost fell on the kid he may not put in as it is not as important to him. (depending how old they are and if they work)There is a reason you have to be 18 to vote and 21 to drink. IMO.
I did not use your name as my post said "most" kids. If my kid drew that tag I would not "want" him to shoot a forky or a 3 pt but if he understands the aspect of the hunt the thought of shooting something small should not be an option to the "kid" regardless of the fathers input. Odds are it is the father paying the license cost, putting the his kid in for the hunt and doing all the research. If I knew the kid could do all of this I would be all for it as it would be clear he is more than dedicated to trophy hunting. If the cost fell on the kid he may not put in as it is not as important to him. (depending how old they are and if they work)There is a reason you have to be 18 to vote and 21 to drink. IMO.
If a kid is that dedicated to trophy hunting then by all means, put in for the desert. But why should they have SPECIAL TAGS ONLY FOR YOUTH? The guy who said it was right, too many of these bucks are going to be wacked and the unit will start slipping. It's a shame.
I agree. If we have youth only hunts, they shouldn't be trophy hunts. Give the Dad's that want to give their sons/daughters an enjoyable hunt that is easy on the legs, with lots of deer to be seen. If a kid wants to get a trophy tag, they should have to compete with the others for that tag as well. Regardless of age.
Michael~All Gods creatures welcome... right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.
Michael~All Gods creatures welcome... right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.
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JACKELOPE
Guest
I agree with michaelj and the others. as far as a kid having equal opportunity as us older guys...and i disagree with the others. clyde, why would you not let your kid shoot a 3 pt??? just curious, don't take it the wrong way. i think that when i take my kids hunting the first couple seasons, i will be overjoyed with whatever they harvest as long as they are happy and understand the values of hunting and doing what we all love so much. it's just like fishing, which i do alot of and take lots of kids fishing...take them somewhere where there are lots of fish to keep them interested. i would be very concerned with taking a young kid into a trophy unit where they may not see so many deer, get discouraged, bored etc. and lose interest not being able to or allowed to shoot a deer. i think the youth hunts are a great idea for does or any-deer situations because there opportunities for a harvest are greater. if the kids want to put in for trophy units, let them, but right along with the rest of us.
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clyde
Guest
Hey Jackelope, I respect your opinion, and My kids are going to put in for anterless the first couple years, but if there giving tags for youths in the desert, why wouldn't I let them put in. If they want too. That's their choice. lets say they are hunting the desert unit, with that said, knowing the trophy potential, he would look for something bigger but if it came down to it, he would be happy shooting a doe. My family has always been meat hunters but we do put in for trophy draw units like everybody else. My wife will be hunting for her first time this year and she asked too put in for an anterless tag. I value my family's hunting heritage but if there giving youth tags, why not?
My son is only seven and in a couple years he'll be going through hunters ed until then he'll learn even more from his family. It's a special feeling that my kids share my passion for the outdoors as they are growing into their own passion for the outdoors as well.
I do not force any of my kids into anything and all I can do is guide them into being the best that they can be.
Clyde
My son is only seven and in a couple years he'll be going through hunters ed until then he'll learn even more from his family. It's a special feeling that my kids share my passion for the outdoors as they are growing into their own passion for the outdoors as well.
I do not force any of my kids into anything and all I can do is guide them into being the best that they can be.
Clyde
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JACKELOPE
Guest
ok clyde...i'm with you now as far as the kids go, but i still don't agree with the youth only desert unit draw...
thanks for clarifying
thanks for clarifying
WAstickslinger
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Do any of you guys spend much time in the desert unit? I know I do and I am seeing way too many bucks dying of old age. I see a lot of regression. I also see a good share of monster two points that are mature bucks and will never be a high scoring deer. The buck to doe ratio is rediculous out there.I see more bucks than does. I like the idea of having a quality buck draw just as much as you all, don't get me wrong, but some of these bucks need to be killed. There are not enough bucks being taken out there. I think giving out a handfull of branched antler to youth would be awesome. I think the game department sees the same problem and is looking for a way to help take care of the abundance of bucks. What better way to do so than allowing youth to get an opportunity? I see how it could be a positive thing. Just my two cents.
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kirkl
Guest
Wastickslinger, not doubting your info but if there is such a big problem with so many bucks and dying of old age then maybe they can quit being stingy and give out more than the 15 rifle tags that they do now. That would certainly help also.
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JACKELOPE
Guest
thats exactly what i was thinking.
I think that Youth Hunts are a great idea, especially the doe hunts to let them 'cut their teeth' when they're young. I would support legislation to restrict the doe/cow hunts to juniors 12 & under. Then turn them loose on bucks & bulls.
Here in AZ, they have a doe hunt on the Kiabab. They also give-out some youth tags for a December muzz hunt in one of the 16 units. That could definitely be considered a trophy hunt in my opinion, as the bucks are either rutting or close to rutting then.
I don't have a problem with reserving a few of the trophy tags for the kids. My $.02 only though, as I don't live in Washington....
S.
Here in AZ, they have a doe hunt on the Kiabab. They also give-out some youth tags for a December muzz hunt in one of the 16 units. That could definitely be considered a trophy hunt in my opinion, as the bucks are either rutting or close to rutting then.
I don't have a problem with reserving a few of the trophy tags for the kids. My $.02 only though, as I don't live in Washington....
S.
ridgerunner
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15 does seem much too limited. Funny thing is before that unit went to limited entry in the mid 90's no one ever really considered hunting there, now its the "top" unit in the state.
WAstickslinger
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I agree that 15 is much too limited. It's not that the game department is being stingy, but more so that they were trying to build a good quality buck population. They have definately done this. What is so wrong with allowing youth to have a special hunt out there as well? I am sure some youth will hold out for a trophy deer but you know as well as I do that most kids under fifteen are not going to pass up a decent 130-150 inch shooter buck. Sounds like us adults are being kinda stingy. I just got back from guiding a youth turkey hunt. I haven't had that much fun in a long time. And I sure as heck am not mad that a ten year old got to shoot at monster toms before me. These kids need to develope a passion for hunting like we did. What better way to do that than in a limited entry quality buck area. I am not trying to stir the pot I just really like to see these youth succeed.
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crabcreekhunter
Guest
WAstickslinger I agree that there is enough quality bucks in the unit to support more tags and maintain the same quality. I spend a lot of time in the unit since it's right across the highway from my house and it be nice if more tags could be put in for the Desert and out of some other units.
MuleySniper
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I dont see any problem allowing youth hunts in quality units. People complain that its just another opportunity for a parent to get another name in the pot, but fail to mention all the people who apply their wives for these hunts and do everything except pull the trigger. Dont be so concerned about a handfull of youth hunters possibly taking a trophy buck from the desert, be more concerned about the a- hole poacher thats harvesting the monster buck during their own season.
Califelkslayer
Long Time Member
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I won't even pretend that i know anything about the unit you'all are talking about. Wa is the ONLY western state i don't apply in. i do believe that youth hunts are essential for the future of our sport. i personally took my son on a youth elk hunt in utah in 04. we saw a spike the first hour of the hunt. we discussed him shooting it with me telling him over and over that it was his decision. i did tell him that i thought he could do alot better but for him to decide. he let it walk. after chasing bugling bulls for 7 more days, we left with an unfilled tag. to this day he doesn't regret his decision. i know cuss i just asked him. Bottom line. If he hadn't had the opportunity to hunt elk, in the rut, with a rifle, at a young age, i'm not sure if he would ever have that opportunity. Maybe not the best units, but youth hunts with a better than average chance of success are essential for the future of our sport. i'm biased. i'm gonna need someone to pack me around in another 20 years.
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missinMT
Guest
Hey ridgerunner,
You have spoken the gospel truth with your comment. I recall my HS years fishing on Potholes with my Dad in October (knocking them dead of course) and seeing these tremendous bucks running around the sand dunes. Now that was some time ago but it does make a guy wonder.
You have spoken the gospel truth with your comment. I recall my HS years fishing on Potholes with my Dad in October (knocking them dead of course) and seeing these tremendous bucks running around the sand dunes. Now that was some time ago but it does make a guy wonder.
