Montana Questionaire..............

Dean Parisian

Active Member
Messages
439
Last evening I was preparing to go out with my bride of 16 years, (celebrated last night actually, been the best 12 years of my life) and the phone rang. It was a paid intern for the State of Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks department doing a harvest survey for last year. Funny she should call as the day prior I had mailed off $1,326 to try and again hunt elk and muleys in MT this fall. Her questions were the usual, did you take any pheasants, sharptail grouse, etc.......I did take one pheasant actually ...on the front grill of my rental 4x4...and the usual questions of harvesting any deer and elk.....Anyway, she concluded by asking if I had seen any wolves or lions and I responded by saying that if I had I would probably have tried to give them the proverbial celestial dirt nap. She said that it was okay to tell her that and that they wouldn't prosecute me if I did tell her the truth. No, I replied but the S, S and S up was always on my mind. I asked her to please tell her superiors to request the legislature to change the law to shut down buck muley hunting during the rut.

She was very polite and courteous and did her job very well.

I hope my son and I get drawn. It will be his first trip hunting to MT and where I grew up, something Dad has looked forward to for many years.

Dean Parisian
Chippewa Partners
Team Muleys Pro Staff
http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com
 
I received the same call around 6:00PM, but from a rather old sounding gentleman. He was very polite and asked pretty much the same questions. He didn't ask me about cats or dags though. I did tell him that we shot several dogs in the 3 days we were muley hunting, he actually thanked me.............rf
 
Perhaps the last 4 years were misery?
ismith

"Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ~ anonymous
 
About how long does it take to get drawn in montana. My dad works on a ranch up there and i have the opportunity to go up there any time. Been thinking about doing it.
 
How long to draw MT, for us working stiffs you'll probably draw 3-5 times for elk/deer combo, and for just a combo, probably 1 out of 5. For the outfitted hunts all you need is an outfitter and twice as much money and you get a tag.
 
nice to know that people are so willing to break a game law. I am no fan of wolves but to say if you saw one you would shoot it is pretty stupid.

Do you only obey the game laws you agree with? Great ethics.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-07 AT 09:48AM (MST)[p]I obey all game laws as do the majority of hunters. That said, having taken several hundred different canines in steel-jawed traps in many different states, by my estimate, wolf packs do far greater damage to elk herds and muleys on the winter range than a poached animal here and there, or an animal killed by a "local" to feed his family. There are some pictures floating around the internet that are associated with the following note. If you get a chance anywhere to view them they are fairly graphic.

These photo's were taken by Lewis Turcott. Lewis is a 69 year old retired man from Orofino, ID. He actually camped for weeks at a time during the winters to film the horrific predation taking place on theelk winter ranges. All the killing he filmed took place on the North Fork of the Clearwater River in North Central Idaho. The large cavities on the rear of the cow elk are where the fetus was removed. The photographer found and documented that the wolf always ate the fetus first and sometimes the cow was still found alive after the fetus was
removed and eaten. Lewis also found that many elk were killed in
surplus, or "Sport Killed", and left to rot. During the winter when the elk are driven down low and concentrated along the river, they are easy prey and the wolves just keep killing both old and young. These photo's were scanned in from the original photographs on 2-22-07 because Lewis only owned 35mm cameras. I've been after Lewis for months to allow me to scan his pictures but he was reluctant because he's "loaned" many of
them out before and never got them back. I had Lewis stay at my side while I scanned away and he has his pictures back and the world can begin to see his work.
Steve
Lewiston, Id


Hey guys, no kidding, it is one week every month that is rough around this crib.........in fact it is sheer terror. Maybe your wives go through the same thing. I still hate it after 16 years!!!


Dean Parisian
Chippewa Partners
Team Muleys Pro Staff
http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com
 
NeMont, don't get your panties in a bunch;^) My post was about coyotes not wolves, perhaps I should have been more specific...................rf
 
My panties are not in a bunch.

I find it funny that Dean is one of the loudest voices griping about what how difficult it is to draw a Montana tag, that landowners should be given tags, what they cost, hunting the rut, you name it but has no problem saying he would willing break a law by killing a wolf.

Kill all the dawg's you want just don't brag about breaking the law to some minimum wage caller who probably doesn't even reside in Montana.

Nemont
 
Hey Dean, does this mean youre going to do the ethical thing and forgo the rut hunt if you get drawn? That's what I thought. . . Love the guys that say shut down the rut hunt but then buy a tag. . . cracks me up. .
 
Nope, he wont skip the rut hunt if he gets drawn, but he will sure as hell ##### about not getting drawn and about how screwed up Montana's game management is because he doesnt get a cheap landowner tag every year.
ismith

"Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ~ anonymous
 
dean,

Now I understand the 12 year/ 16 year discrepancy and it makes perfect sense. LMAO.

JB
 
Montana State University ecology professor Scott Creel's study on wolves made for some interesting reading in The Gazette last week. It told how wolves aren't just preying on elk, but their presence is hurting pregnancy rates and that's resulting in low calf numbers.

Creel said, "Most people assume that low numbers of calves were due to direct predation. The paper says in large part it's because of the effect on pregnancy rates."

When wolves are present, elk tend to move around more, eat in different places and change how they cluster in groups. With those elk, researchers found lower rates of progesterone and, as expected, fewer calves born the following year.

For their study, Creel and others examined elk scat from five wintering elk herds from 2002 to 2006. The herds were from Gallatin Canyon, Dome Mountain, Blacktail Plateau and Wall Creek in the Yellowstone ecosystem and Garnet Mountain, about 120 miles to the northwest.

In the Gallatin Canyon herd, there were just eight calves per 100 cows. Generally, 30 calves per 100 cows is considered a solid ratio to sustain a herd.

Between 1994 and 2004, the elk count for the Northern Yellowstone Herd fell from 19,035 to 8,335. This winter's count, conducted on Dec. 30, found 6,738 elk.

Dean Parisian
Chippewa Partners
Team Muleys Pro Staff
http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com
 
The mystery predator that killed more than 120 sheep in Eastern Montana last year was a "domestic" wolf and not a wild wolf from the Northern Rocky Mountains, state officials said Wednesday.

DNA testing at two labs determined the wolf was the product of "human-manipulated breeding in a domestic, captive situation," according to the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks.

The animal had genetic material from wolves in the Great Lakes region, the lower 48 states and Alaska, tests showed.

"You just don't see that Heinz 57 hodgepodge in wild wolves," Carolyn Sime, head of the state's wolf program, said Wednesday afternoon.

Still unanswered is the question of where the animal came from.

"In the absence of any permanent markings on this animal, we have no way to trace it back to its owner," Sime said. "That part of the mystery will remain unresolved unless somebody comes forward."

The 106-pound male caused a stir for months in Garfield and McCone counties, where it traveled widely and periodically preyed on sheep. Reports of depredations began in December 2005 and lasted until July of last year.

The predator eluded trackers until last fall, when its footprints were spotted in deep snow. Federal agents with Wildlife Services shot and killed it from the air Nov. 2 on a ranch east of Jordan.

Though some assumed that the wolf had wandered from the Yellowstone ecosystem, that explanation didn't quite look right, wildlife officials said at the time.

Samples for DNA analysis were sent to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service National Forensic Laboratory in Ashland, Ore., and to a genetics lab at the University of California Los Angeles.

The Ashland lab has the largest collection of DNA samples involving North American wolves, domestic wolves and wolf hybrids. The UCLA lab has been putting together a genetic family tree of Yellowstone's wolves.

Tests at the labs determined that the animal wasn't the product of a free-roaming wild wolf population in the Northern Rockies, the Midwest or Canada.

It didn't have any DNA matching domestic dogs. Its maternal genes came from the Great Lakes, its paternal DNA was from the lower 48, and other DNA came from Alaska, the analysis showed.

The presence of three DNA sources from thousands of miles apart precludes the possibility of it being a wild wolf, state officials said.

"This individual displays classic characteristics of being a domestic wolf," Dyan Straughan, a forensic scientist at the national forensics lab, said in a prepared statement.

Other characteristics, including its long claws and teeth in relatively good condition, also indicated the wolf wasn't from the wild.

Montana law requires that any captive, domestic or hybrid animal that is more than half wolf be permanently tattooed and registered with Fish, Wildlife and Parks and that any escaped animal be reported. Since the law passed in 1985, 332 tattoo registration numbers have been issued and 60 people have registered captive or hybrid wolves, Sime said.

The domestic wolf shot in Garfield County didn't have any tattoos. Tracing its origins might be difficult because the domestic wolf business can be hard to track.

"It's a closeted industry that's hard get a handle on," Sime said.


Published on Thursday, March 01, 2007.



Dean Parisian
Chippewa Partners
Team Muleys Pro Staff
http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com
 
What do either of those stories have to do with aying you would willingly breaking the law by shooting a wolf? The domestic wolf killed around Circle was not killed by hunters and everyone already knows the impact wolves have had on the elk population around Yellowstone Park.

Neither of which has anything to do with this thread.

Nemont
 
I wish that more people would request that Montana shut it's season down before the rut. I like to hunt the rut as much or more than most, but if we could shut the season down about 2 weeks earlier, in about 2 years Montana would be back on the map in regards to big, mature, trophy mule deer. The state will never let it happen however due to the fact that it is a huge draw to our state and it brings in a lot of money. It is a big plus for outfitters as well, but so is your clients taking a half a dozen mid 190 inch deer a year too. It's all about management, and Montana doesn't manage very well at all, they are just worried about the hunter numbers and the commerce, and they don't like listening to landowners complain about the deer eating their hay in the winter time. Another problem we have is the local hunter who harvests a fork horn or a 20 inch 4 point for meat instead of a doe.......that makes a lot of sense and we see it all of the time. Maybe Montana should look around at what other states have done to increase their quality and pay atttention a little more.
 
Back in my youth I used to love wading into a big coyote with a kill stick in that Seely Lake country and exchange the pelt for a C-note. Always thought I was doing cervids a good favor too. For the "jury" on here you boys are amazing.

I've got a nice Alaskan wolf pelt here in my office, I sure don't need a Montana wolf hide to complete my pelt line-up.

BlueLeader says it well.


Dean Parisian
Chippewa Partners
Team Muley Pro Staff
http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com
 
Close the rut hunt? Do you guys actually hunt here in Montana? In the Western part of the state, we are enjoying the best big buck hunting since the 1970's. The Eastern areas hold giant bucks as well. I like my 5 week season here in Montana. The state has done an exceptional job with muleys where I live. And I am on the mountain enough to know this. mtmuley
 
I am a Montana native. I agree with mtmuley. In the fall of 2000 I went into a taxidermy place in here in Helena. I noticed that they had a few nice mule deer and a lot of nice whitetails, so I asked a few questions. They told me that for years, most of the big deer they were getting were whitetails. They said that the big buck hunting for mule deer hadn't been good for a long time.
In the fall of 2005 I returned to the same shop and noticed that the ratio had been flip-flopped. I spoke with them again and they said that since FWP required drawing (choosing) an area to hunt mule deer in SE Montana, the number of big muley bucks they get in every year has greatly increased.
I don't think FWP is doing too bad.
Many of my best memories of my childhood are hunting with my dad and brothers. We killed some does, some little bucks, and a few good bucks. Thanksgiving weekend (peak of the rut) is when most of this took place. I wouldn't change the season for the world. I loved it then and plan on loving it with my own kids in a few years.
I get bugged with people who want to change everything to fit their lifestyle and their hunting choices, no matter what it destroys for everybody else.
We deal with a lot of that here in MT. Everybody wants to move here and buy their 2 acres. Then they want to tell everybody else what they can and can't do with the remaining 300 Million acres in the state. It drives me nuts.
-Soup
 
soup, I am a native also and couldn't agree with you more. Our deer and elk herds in the state are mostly stable, or on the rise like here in the Bitteroot. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. mtmuley
 
When I was a young kid hunting in Mt I felt Montana residents were the luckiest hunters in the west. A five week season in Nov was the reason. I am no longer so sure that this is true. The reason is the the current season is much too dependent on private land to be successful. I am not saying that indviduals can not be very successful on public land, but that to get a good and even harvest you need to have good access to private land. Here in SE Montana in Oct. alfafa fields are full of does and smaller bucks. There are some big alfafa field bucks but for the most part the older bucks are not visiting the alfalfa until well past dark or not at all. During the day these bucks are holed up in the nastiest chunck of ground in their home area. This land is often public ground because the homesteaders passed it over and took the more productive land. This all changes when the rut starts Nov 10. During the rut that older buck is just as likely to be standing with the does at eight in the morning as in the back country. The current season worked great back in the 70's when most private land was accessed by simply asking and maybe a nice gift or a little work. This is not the way it is now. Now access is ever increasingly regulated by ones ability to pay. The current season is making this trend worse in two ways. Many of those older bucks are often not available on private land during Oct but are when the rut starts. Last year I kept track of the number of nice bucks that arived on one ranch I am very familiar with. The rut more than doubled the number of nice bucks using the property from October. This also doubled the recreation value of the property. I live about 50 miles from Wyo. Nearly all the private land south of me is leased by outtfiters that hunt both Wyo. and Mt. If I was an outfitter I would take advantage of the different seasons too. More outfitters mean more competition for leases and this translates into higher lease rates.
I am not that familiar with the western part of the state but I expect that the rut and old man winter pushes much of the game to lower elevations. This land is much more likly to be private ground that is either fee hunting or locked up by some out of stater that doesen't allow any hunting at all.

I like the long season and if I had my way I'd keep it at five weeks but move it forward about three weeks. I don't believe that changing the season just for better bucks is a good reason. First I am not sure that it would be as successful as many people think and second the Montana tradition is one of November and Thanksgiving hunting. The reason to change the season is that the Montana tradition is changing. In many areas the tradition is much closer to that of Texas than to what Montana had in the 70's. If it wasn't for the limit on Nonresident licenses and that one third of the state is public land Montana would be the Texas of the north. The nonresident quota could change over night with an act of the legislature or a bad court decision. The November season is giving landowners more control over game populatons that reside on public ground during October. The November season is helping change the tradition from one of free hunting to one of fee hunting.

Antlerradar
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-07 AT 09:18PM (MST)[p]Im born and raised here in western montana as well. I think the november hunt is great and it would be a tragedy if they shut it down early. I think generally speaking, especially in my neck of the woods, you need to exert just as much energy and time in the early season as the late season.

Also where i hunt, the end of the season has by far the lowest hunting pressure (except for thanksgiving through sunday). I really dont think the reason you dont see more big bucks come out of MT is because theyre all getting killed early, but more genetics and the the vastness of the country along with low hunting pressure.

My hunting partner killed a buck this year that grossed 192 and f&g aged at 10+ yrs old. the canyon we shot him out of is only 500 yards from a main plum creek road on public property, not to mention in a general tag area only an hour from Missoula. we hunted this canyon 9 out of the last 12 days of the season, saw at least ten bucks a day, and never saw another hunter. with my experiences, its hard to say theyre all getting killed too young.
 
I love it when people say that all MT needs to do is end the season before the rut and we will be up to our ears in monster bucks.

For better than 10 yrs now the CMR has been closed to all muley hunting for the last two weeks of the season. When it first hapened I remember thinking things were really gonna get good. The truth is that the paterns of good horn years really hasn't changed much. Some years are just better than others. An easy winter followed by a wet spring seems to be the best.

A few years ago it seemed like there was a 150" buck around every corner. I expected the next year to really have some good ones and didn't see but a few that were bigger than 150". Where all those up and coming bucks went I have no idea.
 
Do you ever hunt in MT? I find plenty of mature bucks, most people just aren't willing to do what it takes to kill one. Quit complaining and enjoy the incredible MT deer hunting. The management of game in this state is fantastic. Others would love to have the opportunity to hunt mulies during the rut.
 
NeMont, what does a federally introduced non-native species have to due with Montana game laws? I have no problem breaking laws that are riduclous and unethical. What is law isn't necessarly right,
 

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