Wolves and the decimation of our legacy

S

Shotgun59

Guest
You people need to make Don start putting some money where it WILL count....pretty soon the wolves will decimate my state of Montana and their elk/deer pops...and Idaho and Wyoming...they must go somewhere for food and that is Utardia and Colorado..pretty soon your UDWR managers will care about more about wolves than their precious governor and expo tags...Wolves are comming to your state beleive it or not due to the DC aholes who have never been out west.
 
The idea of reintroducing Wolves does concern me, but it also reminds of the story of my first trip to Alaska over 30 years ago. I actaully spent 7 summers in SouthEast Alaska, making money to pay for my schooling. The first year, as I was learning my way around the area and I went on a short boat ride with a local resident around the Island I was living on. Me and this local pull into a small cove where a creek was located. Very neat setting. I ask the local about the deer population. He tells me that there are just not the number of deer there used to be and explains it was the result of "those damn wolves." I ask further about the deer and wolves, and he tells me about a few years back he and his buddy came into that cove and shot 40 deer with there 44 revolvers. Then he concluded by stating that you just could not do that anymore because of "the damn wolves." In the 7 summers I spent in SouthEast Alaska, I never did see a single "damn wolf."
 
well cali boy, you couldn't be more clueless come up to montana and show you all the wolves you can handle. if you don't think they decimate elk, moose, and deer populations you need to do some research look at elk numbers where wolves are. and then open your trap. the prooblem is we have these cali transplants up here with all the money in the world trying to change things because they are to damn ignorant to leave it alone. they want to come up here to get away from california then the want to make it just like it. get a clue! and tell your buddies to stay away from my state, they are f***ing it up.
 
Wow. Play nice. I think the previous poster was pointing out that the decrease in deer and elk populations may be multi-dimensional and that we don't really solve the problem unless we figure out all the variables to the equation.
 
Geeze wiz Tuf, I did start off by saying I was concerned about the reintroduction of Wolves, and then just recounted a story form my days 30 years agon in Alaska. I did not say that reintroduction of wolves was not causing a serious problem for your state or any ohter state for that matter. I did not say your concerns were not valid or that others did not have reaason for concern. All I did was recount a story that I am always reminded of when I hear about problems with wolves. I did not express an opinion one way or another about your suggestion or alert for others to be concerned. So I think it is you that are overreacting and yes clueless when you attack a post that does not express an opinion one way or another.

As far as Californians messing up your state, again another complete generalization, which although I am sure it applies to some, would not aply to all. But I expect that none of what I say matters because I am from California, therfore a bad and clueless person, and I did not instantly and clearly agree with what you said, so I should be dismissed, ignored and belittled.

Have a good day Tuf.
 
it is easy to sit in another state and make assumptions about a state you don't live in. that is what politicians do and is what environmentalist do that live in the city. caelkhunter i know i blasted you, but think before you write something very touchy to people who live in the areas where these battles are on there door steps. what the post is stating is be ready to fight becauase soon the fight will be on your step. and if you have an example make it pertinent, ak so many years ago means nothing and you don't just see wolves, but that doesn't mean they are not there. i understand your point but that is no where near the issue at hand. have a nice day
 
I did not express or make any assumptions about your state, but did express concern about he reintroduction of wolves.

Plain and simple, I retold an old story that I have always found to be humorous, and am always reminded of whenever issues of wolves comes up.

I did think before I posted and thought others might find it humorous. I disagree with your view that it is not pertinent in any respect.

It is you that should think before you blast someone for making such an opinionless post.

At the end of the day, I like to think that all who participate on this site, by and large, are true hunters, who share common values and have a respect for nature and what god has provided for us all. It should not matter what state in which you live, whether you live in a city or the country, or whether you are in the same economic situation. I like to think we can find enough common ground to stand together on the fights that matter to our hunting interests. I have always been concerned about how hunters attacking fellow hunters, on important hunting issues, hurt our interests and provides fuel to the anti-hunting communities such as PETA.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-03-10 AT 09:46PM (MST)[p]tufcntry,

I think you should listen to caelkhnter, he's actually a whole lot closer to the truth than you are...

You believe elk are being wiped out in Montana due to wolves? Ever read the Montana Elk Management Plan? According the EMP, elk are still at or over objective in 36 of 44 EMU's. Also, according to the EMP, MT has an obligation to keep elk numbers at objective numbers.

So, for the last 10 years the MTFWP, under threat from wing-nut state representative like Debbie Barret from Dillon MT, they have been doing everything possible to kill the living $hit out of the elk in Montana. You know, things like having large quotas on antlerless elk in the Bitterroots, a real cool late hunt in a large part of SW Montana a few years ago...all on general tags for BOTH of those hunts. Oh, and lets not forget issuing a $hitload of cow permits statewide.

To top it off, another great thing happened in all of regions 1 and 2 in Montana. The MTFWP, being pushed by the lion hunters in Montana came up with a great plan. Lets make all of region 1 and region 2 (just about all of Western Montana) a "trophy" cat area. The result? Lion harvest dropping in one major drainage of MT from 100+ cats a year to 10...only a 90% reduction.

Oh, and dont think the deer were left out either...2 doe permits issued OTC to any resident with a spare ten dollar bill in his pocket. And lets not forget about the additional doe permit available through the draw.

...and of course the wolves too.

So, now that we've reduced the elk populations via gross over-hunting, reducing lion harvest by 90% in regions 1 and 2, and allowed each hunter 4 deer in most areas of Western Montana...lets just claim its all about wolves.

Are you fuggin' serious?

To top all that off...now MTFWP in its infinite wisdom, and who are STILL claiming elk are over objective...have turned all cow elk permits (that required you to tag a cow if you took one with your general elk tag)...into cow elk "b-tags" which allows each hunter to now kill a cow AND a bull.

The wolves are killing all the elk...yet the MTFWP is continuing to allow very aggressive and very liberal elk and deer hunting in Montana. You know why that is? Because elk are still at or over objective numbers according to the EMP and the MTFWP is under constant political pressure to get elk numbers under control.

I'm about tired of idiots claiming that wolves are killing all the elk...when in reality...the State Legislature is where you need to be spending your time. Call your representatives and tell them that MT's EMP needs to be revisted and realistic elk objectives need to be set.

Montana has the habitat to easily support 200,000 elk...yet currently is at 136,000...and according to the EMP...over objective.

Thats pretty funny to me...when I have not seen a single browse line or other sign of elk over-grazing or otherwise damaging a single acre of winter range in Montana.

The real wolves in Montana that are kicking the crap out of the elk herd meet a couple times a year in Helena...

caelkhuntr,

I was born in Montana and lived there for 32 years before moving to Wyoming 10 years ago. I hope you realize that people from Montana are not all like tufcntry. Your opinions are valid wherever you live, and your story about AK is about spot on with regard to whats going on in Montana. Montana hunters are opportunists, and a vast majority will be trying to kill 2 elk each this year. Of course, wolves will still be the only thing killing elk in Montana though.
 
So are you saying that we shouldn't worry about wolves as much? I think the data is pretty solid when it comes to wolves being detrimental to big game herds. Could there be better management of hunters and harvest quota? Yes, without a doubt, but neither can we be so cavalier about the wolves.

What about Wyoming and Idaho? I am in Idaho and the problem is very real and it is not related to much to poor management of hunting opportunities. I think you are giving hunters too much credit because I don't know many people that have a desire to go after two elk, shoot does, etc. Maybe Idaho hunters are just more lazy than those in Montana.
 
Buzz thanks for the comments. As far as Tuf goes, I expect he, as most people from Montana are, is a good person. He just has strong feelings about his concerns for his hunting opportunities. We all need to keep in mind that our fellow hunters are not the enemy, the anti hunting groups like PETA are. Therefore, we all need to take a deep breath before responding in a hostile way towards fellow hunters. Otherwise we run the risk of bashing each other and perhaps adding arguments and bad examlpes that the anti hunting groups will be able to use against our common interests.
 
ok boys, thirty thirty had it right obviously mt is doing piss poor job on managing elk, and i live in dillon so i know all anout debbie, what i meant about assumptions is politicians and animal rights people sit out of state and make decisions for the rancher and the outfitters losing there jobs and there ranchs due to wolves not overhunting. if you look at any data from where wolves are left alone they deciamte elk and moose herds. good examples yellowstone, selway bitteroot wilderness just to get you started, and if you don't think that will happen to your area when wolves are there your nuts. already in this part of the state we have lost many moose units due to wolves not overhunting. also you should look up the long wolf study done MSU. they found that wolves just being in the same area as the elk, causes the cows to be puched up in the trees during there pregnancy so instead of eating the good grass they need to grow calves, they are eating low pine brows and it is causing abortion. so wolves are hurting elk herds in more than one way. we saw this in our summer scouting last year the cow to calf numbers were really poor. another fun fact is these morons wanted to restore the natural habitats so they reintroduce CANADIAN wolves that have now killed the timber wolves off that actually inhabited this area, timber wolves are half the size of the wolves running around now. so i am hot headed at this point. i am not saying your not a sportsman, and i stand and fight with you any day for the right issues, to me this is a website where we need to iron out our idea's so when it comes down time we were all on the same page. and if your from california your gunna get bashed thats just the way it is bud its mostly fun, but you don't know what its like until your state is flooded whith out of state hunters. i am sure you are good dude and if i knew i might like ya who knows but a cali guy man, that is just joke around here.
 
At least Montana can help fix their problem with better people management. Trying to manage wolves is a heck of a lot more difficult than managing people. I would rather loose elk to fellow hunters than to wolves. I think Idaho big game is in for a world of hurt. Better get your trophies while you can. I need to get on some anti-depressant meds:)! I am able to hunt different states every year and Idaho's big game decimation seems to be on a j-curve. We will rival Oregon in a few years!
 
thirtythirty,

I wish what you said regarding wolves VS People was really true...but its just not.

The MT Legislature is on a mission to drop elk numbers way lower than they are now...and hunters are the tool they'll be using.

Wolf numbers can be controlled via a combination of sport hunting and government hunting.

With the seasons and work by government trappers, along with some natural mortality, wolf populations in WY, ID, and MT only grew by 4%...the lowest growth rate since reintroduction. If WY would have had a season, there may have been NO growth or even a reduction in over-all populations.

Wolves can be controlled, no question.

Controlling the politically appointed FWP commission, FWP director, and the Legislature that controls them???....Good luck.
 
Hey BuzzH,
First of all, Are you for the wolves or what? It sure sounds like you are, just curiouse! And where are you getting your statistics? From a study done by one of the most liberal universitys. I happen to live in the heart of one of the most beautiful places on this earth, there once was thousands of elk wintering fifty miles from my door. Now there is maybe six hundred and there five miles away in a safe location surounded by ranchers that are not afraid to SSS SHOOT SHOVEL SHUTUP. I will go on to say one other thing, this last year a ranch near by lost 75 of there RAMS and several lambs in one attacke overnight. And you dont think thats a problem?? I just so happen to be good friends with our local gov. trapper who in the last year killed over 50 wolves by order. This same trapper recieved earlier this year another order to take out 20 more after an attacke, which they killed 25 cows and calves. This same trapper has not killed one this year, infact the wolves have come to know that when they hear the plane to head for the timber never to be seen. thoughs are not statistics they are real life examples within fifty miles of my door. thanks
 
Well good grief, he killed 50 by himself? Sweet, hunters killed another 72. The state killed what, another 150 or so? Sounds like we are killing wolves. Sounds to me like the system is working.
Now if we could only stop slaughtering our cows, maybe we would see an increase in our herds. Do you see a problem with that? That is what I took from Buzz's posts.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-10 AT 12:53PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-06-10 AT 11:31?AM (MST)

I challenge EVERYONE who thinks hunting for self or for future generations is worth fighting for to stand together and put your money and mouth in one fight. Go to this website and join.... www.biggameforever.org. It's only for fighting the wolf battle

I just gave $1000.00 for membership... Are you willing to do something????

Robb Wiley
Non-Typical Outfitters
 
man if you think 150 wolves is controlling them your crazy. wolvews are here to stay now. look at coyotes we hunt them when ever we want, how we want, and the govt has kill orders on thousands and they are still thriving, wolves are the same just smarted and harder to kill. put them on the predator list and shoot them when you can. they will still be around but we will have a handle on them. idaho shot nearly 200 wolves just hunters alone. and the govt probably matched that, as did ranchers. wolf numbers you read is about as reliable as counting ants they have no idea how many wolves are actually out there. they think are only 39 breeding pairs in MT. that is just ignorant there are packs of 25 wolves running around everywhere. and they think only two wolves in the pack breed, come on. no one ever said that there are not other issues at hand for managing elk, but wolves will be what breaks the camels back if we let them go. they are the number one threat to elk and moose populations right now...
 
The government killed 150, another 72 in the season, and more natural mortality. Well over 200 in Montana. A bunch more in Idaho as well.

Wolves are not the number one threat to moose and elk populations.

If they are, how do explain elk numbers dropping in areas that dont have wolves...like the Missouri River Breaks?

If wolves are running around in packs of 25...why did Idaho fail to fill its hunting quota? Wouldnt you think with "thousands" of wolves running around that the small quotas would fill?

Sounds to me like a lot of tough talk and not many people taking action through a legal state season.
 
BUZZH,
Do you live in Montana? Do you live in a area that is home to the wolf? did you buy a wolf tag last year and make an attempt to harvest one yourself?

nobody ever said that the wolf was the only cause of the decline in our elk pop. yes there needs to be something done to lower the amount of cows being killed. On another note, since your so smart on MT politics and points out that Debbie Barrett wants to kill of the Elk. Why does the Barett ranch limit the amount of hunters they allow on or through there land? I would think if she wanted them all dead they would allow any and all to have access, dont you think?
 
obviously numbers go up and down, you sound like these damn liberal jack kobs, twisting words and numbers to fit there cause. explain the numbers in yellowstone, in the selway bitteroot genius, in the frank church, in many area's in idaho, MT, WY. we are not talking about areas with out wolves. and you don;t know there aren't wolves in the breaks because you obviously aren't a sportsman, you are probably a liberal tree hugger anyway. the numbers where wolves are do not lie. and as i said before look at the affect they have on elk during calving. if you don;t think its a problem and the number one problem where wolves are, you do not live in wolf country. wolves are more intelligient than any animal we hunt. why don't we fill our quotas on anything, sometimes aniamls are hard to kill. get a clue buzz or go to tree huggin wolf lovin site. unfortunalty until a guy like you gets a freind eatin while you are on a nature hike, you will never get a clue because you are just to ignorant like the rest of them.
 
Buzz just because you can hunt wolves does not mean the issue is over... For one you must kill over 80 percent of the population to stop growth of the population. Why do you think Alaska went back aerial gunning. If you had an open season year around wolves would NOT disappear. Hunting will only spread the packs out more. Hopefully before it's to late hunters will stand together...
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-10 AT 10:22PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON May-06-10
>AT 12:53?PM (MST)

>
>LAST EDITED ON May-06-10
>AT 11:31?AM (MST)

>
>I challenge EVERYONE who thinks hunting
>for self or for future
>generations is worth fighting for
>to stand together and put
>your money and mouth in
>one fight. Go to
>this website and join....
>www.biggameforever.org. It's only for
>fighting the wolf battle
>
>I just gave $1000.00 for membership...
> Are you willing to
>do something????
>
>Robb Wiley
>Non-Typical Outfitters


+10 Robb

Thanks for the tip, looks like a great organization and I just joined. Believe me when I say I doing what I can to help control this cancer the liberals have put upon us. The only thing I didn't like on their web site, was the use of their words of reintroduction and recovery describing the wolf program. This is not reintroduction nor recovery. It is an unscientific experiment and an introduction of a non-endangered species.
Oh, I used your name that you referred me.
 
Ruttnbuck,

Fair enough questions and I am more than willing to answer.

I was born in Missoula MT, lived there 32 years until I moved to Wyoming 10 years ago. My father and brother still live there, and I have not missed a single big-game season in Montana since 1979. My family has lived in the Missoula/Flathead area since the late 1800's. We also had a family cabin on the Blackfoot River from 1950-1976. I've trapped, hunted, and fished MT since I was old enough to set a trap, bait a hook, and shoulder a rifle.

Further, I was involved with and commented on the wolf reintroduction...as you know Missoula was grand central station for a lot of it. I made comments on the first scoping meetings, the Draft EIS, and also the Final EIS. I had direct contact with many agency folks that were directly involved, including the USFS, USFWS, and state biologists as well. I'm also aware that in the history of the ESA and NEPA, the wolf reintroduction had more public involvement, more comments received, and more information meetings and documents EVER. Over 750,000 information documents released, well over 100 public meetings, and more than 200,000 public comments received (a vast majority of which were in favor of reintroduction).

Its fair to note that wolves were already occupying Montana on their own with established populations in the Ninemile area as well as the Flathead for at least 10 years before reintroduction. The wolves were going to be a part of the landscape...and they were listed as an endangered species in Montana starting in 1976. In 1995, when they were reintroduced the wolf population was established as a "non-essential" population with a "threatened" VS "endangered" federal status. This gave the USFWS broad control measures. Wolves have been controlled via lethal methods ever since...and the first wolves controlled via lethal methods happened 7 years before reintroduction, in 1987. I also personally saw a kill permit issued to a rancher in Montana in 1999.

I've long been a proponent of keeping wolves at levels needed to just be off the ES list. I'm 100 percent in favor of the current hunting seasons, 100 percent in favor of having a trapping season, and also 100 percent in favor of government hunting of wolves.

But, I'm also 100 percent sure that wolves are not going to be removed totally from the landscape ever again. They are here, they are going to stay. The biggest mistake we can possibly make at this point is to over-harvest wolves and get them relisted. The hunting seasons, along with the government control, have proven that wolves can be controlled. This year, the wolf population in the Tri-state area only grew 4%, the lowest growth rates since reintroduction. Keep in mind that if WY would have had a season this year and killed 75 more wolves, there likely wouldnt have been ANY growth in the wolf population. This isnt Alaska, wolves are way, way, way more accessible than wolves in remote areas of AK. Not real bright to compare the situation in AK to MT, ID, and WY. Two totally different issues...and thats putting it mildly.

I've been involved...way more than 99% of the people on this board...or anywhere else for that matter.

I'm also fully aware of the elk woes in Montana, and not much of it is due to wolves. Wolves have an impact, no question...but so do bears, so do lions, so does poaching, so does high elk quotas, so does the flawed EMP, so does politics.

I was also heavily involved in Montanas Elk Management Plan, which is an absolute joke and is doing way more to keep elk numbers surpressed in Montana than wolves. Thats not open for debate, the MTFWP is being forced via the EMP and the State Legislature to further reduce elk numbers. The reason? Because elk are still at or over objective in 36 of 44 Elk Management Units.

I also have some serious questions that nobody seems willing to answer.

If elk are being ripped by wolves in Montana can you answer why these few items are still happening:

1. extended elk hunting with general tags in 18 hunting units in SW Montana in 2008 that resulted in over 2000 elk being killed in 21 days.

2. High antlerless permits in most every hunting area in the state.

3. High antlerless elk quotas in the Bitterroot, both in the East Fork and West Fork areas...again open to general tags (MT sells 140,000 general tags per year...more tags than there are elk in the state).

4. The opening of "cow week" to general license holders in most region 2 areas in Western Montana the last 2 years.

5. Changing all cow elk permits (which required you to use your general tag) to elk "b" tags that are an additional elk tag. Meaning that anyone who draws a b-tag can now legally kill a cow as well as a bull.

6. Reducing lion and bear hunting opportunities to the tune of 90% in the case of lions in most of regions 1 and 2. Shortening bear seasons from May 31 to May 15 in areas that should be open until June 15th.

Having liberal, extended, and long hunting seasons on antlerless elk by hunters...has no impact???

Its all wolves????

Yeah, sure it is.....

As to Debbie Barret, if you believe she is for elk, why has she proposed elk be managed as livestock by the DOL in Montana, and called for total elimination of elk in Yellowstone to control and maintain brucelosis free status for MT's cattlemen.

Class dismissed....
 
Yawn...when you are done, come and solve Idaho's problem. The fact that Idaho didn't fill their wolf quota is NOT because there wasn't very many of them, but rather they were not as easy to hunt as everyone first thought. I hunted my butt off and didn't harvest and I like to think I am a decent hunter. I know many others that had similar results. They didn't become top predator in less than 20 yrs for nothing.

Even though you make Montana sound like a cluster #^%$, it still has better elk hunting than Idaho and yes, maybe better game management will help there, but not in Idaho. Wolves ARE the major problem here. Elk and moose populations in a lot of areas of Idaho, have been utterly destroyed by wolves ALONE. It is going to take a lot more wolf harvest by public and government to overcome the damage that has been done.

Maybe this doesn't belong in this thread because a lot of the things you preach don't ring true for Idaho's (maybe it does for Montana)current situation.
 
WRONG BUZZ..............GO BACK 14-16 YEARS AND TAKE WOLVES (INTRODUCTION).....OUT OF THE PICTURE AND WE HAVE NORMAL NUMBERS OF ELK & MOOSE. IN FACT WE HAVE LARGE HEALTHY HERDS......COMMON DENOMINATOR = THE WOLF........ITS NOT THAT DIFFICULT........YD.
 
nobody is saying the that wolves are the only problem for elk. but for moose absolutly. we are always going to have issues in an oppurtunity state like mt with liberal seasons and rules. thats just the nature of an oppurtunity state not a trophy state. the extended seasons were to protect ranchers from elk overgrazing there fields. and that is another reason wolves should be shut down is to preserve our ranching heritage that these wolves are putting out of business constantly. all the issues at hand beside wolves are not new but, wolves are what is going to be the final straw. and as far as you are concerned Missoula=liberal, hippie, tree hugger, worst in the state missoula sucks. missoula is central station for all the animal rights B.S. so missoula is knock against you.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 08:32AM (MST)[p]Buzz,

You may have a few points. But you are wrong on the impacts of wolves in MT. I went sheep hunting in the Bob Marshall wilderness in 08. You must know that most the elk winter on the sun river wildlife refuge. (Gibson Res area).
Counts went from around 2500 to 2000 in one year. calf cow ratios are about 5 per 100. Weather conditions were great for counts. They have years of data. MT has a manditory harvest check. The harvest for the past two years has been pathetic. Some hunters were asking the G&F to extend the season date, they were so bad.

Hunters, guides, local taxidermist, who have lived their whole life in the mountains, say it's woves and grizz. Mostly wolves.

They say it's sad to see their livlihoods and what they love go down the drain. Wolves the main problem.

It will be very hard to manage wolves in this remote country.
 
BUZZH,

First, Missoula is argueably the most liberal cities in the NW, so that explains a lot about your schooling.
Second, If you have a problem with a state rep. fighting for one of our last natural resourses in ranching, I just got alot bigger BEEF with you.
It is the fault of our crappy biologists that are responsible for our mismanagement of game, who I must say are coming out of schools like the one in missoula. So dont you dare say with all your statistics that wolves are not the cause of our troubles or that its ONE of our state reps. who is trying her darndest to save the ranching industry in MT more importantly BEAVERHEAD COUNTY. There are a lot of things that need to be done, STARTING with the WOLVES.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 09:28AM (MST)[p]tufcntry,

Where you were born and lived has nothing to do with the facts...and the fact is, when it comes to hunting, trapping, fishing, or knowledge of the issues at hand...you couldnt carry my jock strap.

Yukon Dall...you're full of crap.

You go back 14-16 years in Montana and there were less than 95,000 elk in Montana. Currently, with slightly lower numbers than a few years ago, MT still has 136,000-150,000 elk. Which is still over-objective numbers.

Take a look at the elk harvest in the Bitterroot for an example.

These numbers are directly from the MTFWP website...units 250 and 270 specifically.

2001 and 2002 harvest data is as follows...keep in mind these figures are 6 and 7 years after wolf reintroduction:

2001: 424 total harvest
2002: 408 total harvest

Now notice a trend starting in 2003...now EIGHT years past wolf reintroduction:

2003: 1,099 elk total harvest in the same 2 districts.

How about 2004-2009...a total of 5,340 elk harvested in the same two units (BTW, thats not including any archery harvest, just rifle)...these totals for a 6 year period, if you say 100 elk per year were taken during the archery hunt, are roughly 1,000 per year.

For the years 2003-2009 thats a 250% increase in harvest from the year 2002 and prior.

The wolves ate all the elk...or did they leave the Bitterroot in the back of trucks?

The data doesnt lie...
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 10:07AM (MST)[p]RUTTNBUCK,

So, you think its a good idea that Debbie Barret has introduced legislation to eliminate elk in the GYE? You cry about wolves while she has systematically...and publically...asked the hunters in Montana sacrifice elk for the sake of ranching?

Ok.

You also think it would be prudent to transer management of elk from the MTFWP to the Department of Livestock?

Ok.

Great ideas...keep blaming wolves while Debbie rips the elk to pieces.

Check on these bills introduced by Debby and tell me how these will help hunting and fishing in Montana LC1282, 1377, 1384, 1578, 1579.

So, you think its right to destroy the huge hunting/fishing industry in Montana to save the ranching industry? No compromise to be had there...according to the above legislation. I also have a "BEEF" with any idiot that would sacrifice my public wildlife, and my hunting and fishing...thats putting it mildly.

Its not the fault of the biologists, they are hamstrung by a POLITICALLY appointed FWP Director...and a POLITICALLY appointed FWP COMMISSION. The biologists are some of the best in the business, but cant do their jobs correctly because of people like Debbie Barret and the politics of the state.

Even worse, is when uninformed fools blame the current elk mis management on biologists.

Its a sad day when biologists get no support from hunters...it really is. Its equally sad when I see supposed hunters showing no consideration for our PUBLIC resources and letting politcally motivated special interest destroy the resource on a scale that makes wolves look like childs play.

Find a clue.
 
Buzzh,
The more I hear from you the more I want to throw up. You write and write and write but you dont listen!!!!
I attended a meeting last night where we discussed the local biologist and his mule deer doe quota in our area. He claims there are thousands of mule deer in 15 mile radius and it is thoughs numbers he bases his permits on. EVERYONE in the meeting asked where he was seeing that kind of game, he tells us and we say lets go for a drive and see these deer. In that room was true sportsman who also happen to be ranchers etc. That experience prooves to me the incompetance of MY LOCAL BIOLOGIST, and no, he wont be showing us the deer. The big land owners ie ranchers do a better job at managing our GAME than THE BIG SHOTS WE EMPLOY. And everyone loses when it comes to the wolves.
 
Who's your local biologist and what area are you talking about...I'll give him a call and see what he has to say regarding mule deer.

PM me if you want, although I've never found any biologist to be bashful...and their info is readily available on the website.

Name will do...
 
BUZZh

jockstrap? i think you mean tampon, and i would run your a$$ into the dirt ya treehugger. i didn't say where you were from had anything to do with hunting and fishing abilities. i did say it has to do with your views ie: the crap you are writing down. we will not lose elk in the GYE because of brucelosis it is just not common enough. we will lose them to guess what? WOLVES. once again like ruttin said your write but don't listen. you think you have these numbers and statistics, but they mean a thing. once again you don't live here and you don't truly know. you just read what other want you to read and beleive the same. this is an endless post obviously we won't change your mind and you are making the rest of us sick, so why don't you just go back to your condo, and keep your bull ##### to yourself.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 11:25AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 11:22?AM (MST)

tfcntry,

I dont live in Montana anymore, but I'm actively involved with 4 Montana based hunting organizations. The people in leadership positions of 3 of them are very good friends that I've known for many years. I communicate with them on many issues, usually at least on a weekly basis.

I know more about MT and the issues than you do...so whats your excuse for being so ignorant of the issues? Dont care? Just plain dumb? Lack of comprehension skills? Must suck to be you.

I understand the issues, and so do the organizations I belong to. Dont worry, we'll do the important work for you. I'll continue to provide the peer-reviewed data and facts, and you can continue to whine and cry like a child.

Oh, and BTW, after drawing the coming home to hunt deer/elk combo license...this will be my 30th straight hunting season in Montana with elk and deer tags in my pocket.

Who knows, I may get lucky and stumble into an elk and deer the wolves havent found...

Found this one in a heavy wolf area last year...not bad, considering I only hunted elk for 5 hours, oh, and on public land managed by one of those crappy biologists.

IMG_3291.JPG


IMG_3300.JPG
 
AGAIN......IT WAS A NICE TRY BUZZ, BUT YOUR SLANTED BS & TREE HUGGIN DEMEANOR HAS DISCREDITED YOUR INFO & NUMBERS. NICE BULL PIC,BUT THAT WONT CARRY YOU EITHER..........YD.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 11:57AM (MST)[p]Yep, the MTFWP slants all their harvest data...

When compared to your data...oh, thats right...you have no data.

Laffin'....

Tree hugging demeanor...thats really funny.

Back when I lived in Montana...when I wasnt busy hugging trees, I found a spare minute or two to do a bit of trapping:

Two weeks on Christmas break:

fur1.JPG


One of the last legal lynx ever taken in Montana:

lynx.JPG


Bobcat:

bobcat.JPG


Fisher a couple days later in the same set:

fisher.JPG


A few hours hunting big red:

fox2.JPG



Damn tree huggers....
 
doing all the work my a$$. i don't have to toot my own horn but we are fighting along side ranchers, sportsman and outfitter to preserve our great heritage in mt. we are just sick of guys like you making the fight even harder. i know you think your a super bright and are a big outdoorsman but we all know that is bull by the way you talk. you can say what you want and post what you want but your words have spoken clear as a bell to where you stand its just too bad, that we are on such seperate ends of a fight, that is becoming more and more unreachable. big money, poitics, lobbyists and piss poor, biased govt employees, make it hard to swallow what is hapopeneing to our state. if we want to look at stats once again look at the destruction wolves have done to wildlife in the areas they inhabit it also doesn't help that we have candian wolves not the timber wolves that were here to begin with.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 01:22?PM (MST)

The wolves inhabiting Montana from 1976 until 1995 were wolves that had migrated out of Canada to all areas north of Hwy 200...ON THEIR OWN and they were established with viable populations, well over 100 wolves. They were also listed as endangered under the ESA.

The EXACT some wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone and Central Idaho...most from BC and some from Alberta.

Your claim that there were/are two seperate species in MT is flat wrong. Period. They're all Candian Wolves...all of them.

I challenge you or anyone else to find one shred of DNA or scientific data that supports your claims of two seperate species of wolves.

I'll save you the effort, there is none, not one shred.

The fight isnt unreachable for the informed, you just cant present Bull$hit like you're spouting...two seperate species of wolves as a classic example. People dont listen to crazy talk that isnt supported by any facts or data. The only person on this thread that has posted any factual data is ME.

By the way, please feel free to post your stats showing how many elk Montana have been lost to wolves in the last 5-6 years.

If you really are fighting the good fight, you should be able to produce those stats. My guess...you'll provide more BS, just like you already have.

Put me in touch with all your biased govt. employees and tell me what you think they're biased about. I'll gladly talk to them and report back with the facts of any correspondence I have with them.

Unlike you, I'm not afraid of the truth, and I'm really not afraid to confront people on their BS, titles mean zip to me.

My guess is you wont provide a single name or a show where all the bias is....just run your mouth some more.
 
Buzz,
You didn't respond to the elk declines, counts, cow calf ratios,poor elk harvest from G&F check staion in Augusta. Can ALL the outfitters, taxidermist's and avid hunters who know and have been hunting this area for over 30 years be wrong. Wolves are the main problem, devestating elk herds. They have data for years. Elk winter in the same area for years. Sun river refuge. It's not that hard too figure out.
 
Look at the data yourself, the harvest data is there. Tell me what you see.

Do you think over 100 outfitters working the Bob Marshall and Scapegoat is too many? About right? Too few?

Also, look into the number of cow permits issued from 1995-present. Tell me if there has been an increase or decrease in cow permits.

Also, look at the elk counts during that time frame...always constant? Or has there been drops of a few hundred here and there?

How do explain the population swings prior to wolf reintroduction?

How do explain increases in cow permits.

Finally, check Montanas Elk Management Plan and see if 2,000 elk on the Sun River is under or over objective.

Do those things, and we'll talk about the impacts wolves are having VS the impacts hunting, bears, lions, etc. are having and how we can address the issue when the EMP says we're still carrying to many elk and hunters to need to kill MORE elk.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 02:31PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 02:30?PM (MST)

Huntin100,

I took 2 minutes and looked into the Sun River herd in the EMP. My memory was telling me that 2,000 elk was well within objectives for the SRWMA...not true.

They want NO MORE than 2,000 on the SRWMA:

Directly from the EMP:

HDs 424, 425, and south half of 442:
1) Maintain the total number of elk observed during post-season aerial trend surveys within 10% of 2,500 elk (2,250-2,750 elk). No more than 2,000 observed elk should be on the SRWMA.
2) Maintain at least 200 brow-tined bulls observed during post-season aerial trend surveys.
3) Maintain 15% of harvested bulls at least 6-years-old (as measured at the Augusta check station.


Also a quick check of the 2010 regs...2,200 cow elk b-tags valid for all 400 series hunting districts exept 401, 410, 417, and 455.

Implication: 2,200 hunters that choose to hunt the Front this year will be legally able to harvest TWO elk this year.

In addition areas like 421, 423 either sex general seasons. Additional elk b tags in 422 to the tune of 350. Antlerless elk general seasons in 424 on general licenses. Unit 441 has an additional 350 cow b tags. 442 antlerless elk hunting on general tags.

Those kind of liberal seasons and 2,900 additional elk tags (allowing 2,900 hunters to kill TWO elk each)...having any impact on elk numbers? Or is just all wolves?
 
>Your claim that there were/are two
>seperate species in MT is
>flat wrong. Period. They're all
>Candian Wolves...all of them.
>
>I challenge you or anyone else
>to find one shred of
>DNA or scientific data that
>supports your claims of two
>seperate species of wolves.
>

This is where I've got to say something. Buzz you are right there is probably not one bit of DNA difference between the Canadian Wolf and the now extinct wolf that inhibited Idaho. A fact that cannot be proven or disproven on either side. However I challenge you to show the DNA difference between the Canada Moose and the Shiras Moose, you'll find there is none. For animals to survive the colder winters in the north, they have selectively survived to a larger body giving us a larger animal, same as the wolves. THEY ARE BIGGER, END OF FACT. I don't have 10,000 years or whatever for the size to breed down and neither do our game populations.
 
BuzzH,

http://missoulian.com/news/local/article_e8bf996a-ca99-11de-b688-001cc4c03286.html

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-07/msu-gye071709.php

http://www.bullsandbeavers.com/2010/04/10/rmef-turns-up-heat-on-pro-wolf-groups/

You want your stats MR BUZZ. Suck on this for a while and then start telling us that the wolves have little impact. I could go all day and all night with you on this topic because at the end of the day I LIVE IN WOLF COUNTRY and although I know that something needs to be done with the amount of cows being killed, I know at this point there is alot bigger fish to fry the wolves and and idiots like you. And I dont need your kind of help with my biologist. Keep on thinking your smarter than 90% of the population and we will see where that gets you.
 
once again you think you are hard core, and its funny how you protect the employee's then ##### about the number of tags being issued, and the elk objective numbers. your the one thats is full of #####. you are just looking for an arugument, i've ran into guys like you all my life you just keep running your mouth with nothing backing it up. hiding behind a computer, old crotchedy bastard probably a roadhunter anyway. i just want to know why you are such a wolf lover, and what side you are on.
 
Ahh yes, getting all your info from the local newspapers...nice.

As to the GYE area...again directly from the EMP, page 274:

Since 1968, the Northern Yellowstone elk population has fluctuated widely between 3,200 and 19,000 elk, often with annual changes of 10-20% and some annual changes of up to 40%, as a result of major winterkill events. Population fluctuations in the northern Yellowstone elk herd are more dynamic than other elk populations in southwest Montana.

Take a good look at the years prior to wolf reintroduction...a drop of over 8,000 elk from 1988-1989...before wolves were reintroduced.

Wonder what caused that decline???

Another drop of a couple thousand from 89-90 to 90-91...hmmmm....also before wolves.

veddy interesting also from the EMP regarding the GYE, page 276:

In addition to wolves, results of an ongoing elk calf mortality study in YNP indicate that grizzly and black bear predation is the major cause of elk calf mortality during the first few weeks of life.
 
BUZZH,
CLASS IS OVER,
You have had your fun quoting your research, now is the time for you to crawl back into your shell and shut your trap. Last I checked they dont allow any hunting in yellowstone and you can see what the wolves did to the animals there!! But maybe you have some statistics showing the effect of hunters in yellowstone??? So you can take your liberal biologist , tree hugging, and otherwise clueless theorys and shove it, because we dont care what you think. Finally, We dont need people like you talking to any of our biologist or represenitives.
 
tufcntry,

This sentence of yours proves how smart you really arent...

You said, its funny how you protect the employee's then ##### about the number of tags being issued, and the elk objective numbers.

Do you think the employees of the FWP were the ones that set the objective numbers in the EMP?

If you do...you're wrong. Ask anyone who took the time to comment on the EMP what was going on. The EMP was largely pushed and written by the livestock industry in Montana, and guess what...they pushed for and lobbied for the low objective numbers. The FWP commission sets the tag quotas, biologists can only make recommendations. Dont forget the Commission is politically appointed...so is the FWP Director.

I dont know a single hunter in Montana that took the time to comment on the EMP, that ever agreed to the low population objectives. Not one, and I know a bunch of people, myself included that wrote extensive comments on the EMP. Many groups like the MWF, MBA, RCFWA, RMEF, etc. etc. also were actively trying to get the objectives set higher.

Didnt happen though...politics 101.

Currently because of the low objectives elk are still considered over objective, even though there is NO indications anywhere in the state of any damage being done to winter ranges due to high elk populations.

So, the Montana Legislature is catching flack from the landowners that elk are still way over objective. The Legislature demands the MTFWP do something about it...what choice do they have but to increase harvest? They dont have a choice, thats all they can do, the EMP is what the MTFWP uses to guide management. The FWP is issuing more cow elk tags than ever, having longer seasons than ever, and as a result, killing more elk than ever.

So, more and more elk die each year via hunting and the wolves get the blame.

My harvest statitistics above prove it...250% increase in elk killed in 250 and 270...year after year after year.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 04:31PM (MST)[p]RUTTINBUCK,

Your education on how things work in wildlife has just begun...someday, when you grow up and complete hooked on phonics, you'll understand.

Rest assured, my theories on wildlife, who is controlling what, and whats causing the declines in elk numbers are shared by the people that matter...fortunately for the sake of MT hunters, you're not one of those that matter.

This forum, while fun for me, is not where decisions happen or where changes are made. Its practice for the times that do matter, and I'm way more involved where and when it matters.

I'll bring back a few photos next week from Lobby Week while I'm in Washington D.C...just to horn you up.
 
ok bud this is my last post on this subject, we both know where you and i stand. but a couple things. while you are in D.C. where you fit right in. fight for the right cause. if you say you are a sportsman stand up for sportsmans, and the sportsman don't want wolves, because they know the affect the have on game populations. once again no on is disagreeing with you on cow tags and elk quotas. mt is an oppurtunity state not a trophy state. so there will be alot of tags issued and there are years when hunters are going to do better then others, and that will show in elk numbers. but we are still in control of that since we have BADA$$ guys like yourself standing up for it. lastly quit bashing the real sportsman that does nobody any good, when you call sportsman dumb that is the way it is perceived by the country and anti's use it as fuel. hopefully that is not what you are after but nobody knows for sure. so if you are and the right side of the fight great, but fight for the right causes and right reasons.
 
The sportsmen dont have a choice on wolves, there are going to be wolves on the landscape forever, its a done deal. So, its too bad if sportsmen dont want wolves, we're going to have to live with them.

Its now a matter of controlling them at levels that will not have a huge impact on game, but keeping populations high enough to keep them off the list. If they drop below the numbers in the EIS, the Feds will retake control and MT will likely never have control ever again...I dont care how high the population gets. The wolf issue is being watched...big-time, and it is in the best interest of sportsmen to act accordingly with precise and proper management.

I am in receipt of some information regarding proposed wolf quotas in MT for the 2010 hunting season, just got it today. Increased quotas are being proposed and the public will have the opporunity to comment, the quotas will be high enough to have a REDUCTION in wolf numbers.

I have no doubt the quotas will increase and more wolves will be killed in Montana, providing the season is not stopped because of Wyomings grand-standing.

The wolves are an easy fix, the EMP, politics, etc. etc. etc. not so much, and those items are having a much more significant impact on elk.
 
The article in question released today.

I'm in favor of the increased quota, and will make public comments supportintg the MTFWP. They've handled the situation perfectly to this point, proceeded with management at a cautious, but precise pace.

Montana?s Fish, Wildlife & Parks Commission will be asked to consider a number of changes next week for the proposed 2010 wolf hunting season.

Based on lessons learned from the state?s first regulated wolf hunt last year, FWP wildlife managers are proposing to create 14 wolf hunting units and will ask the commission to consider overall harvest quotas of 186 and 216 wolves. Commissioners approved a harvest quota of 75 wolves across three wolf management units for the 2009 season.

?In a word, it's all about balance,? said Ken McDonald, FWP?s chief of wildlife. ?Smaller and more wolf management units represent lessons learned from the 2009 hunting season. Some areas contributed more to the harvest than expected and prevented us from addressing management needs in other areas. We want to adjust that to ensure a widely distributed harvest and yet still target areas where we're seeing impacts on prey, like elk and deer, and where recurring livestock depredations are anticipated.?

The FWP Commission will meet Thursday, May 13 in the old Supreme Court Chambers on the third floor of the Montana State Capitol in Helena, beginning at 8:30 a.m.

In addition, subquotas are proposed in three areas to limit harvest during early season backcountry hunts and including the area directly north of Yellowstone National Park. Wildlife managers also will ask the commission to consider a wolf archery season to run Sept.4 through Oct. 17, the same time as Montana?s deer, elk, lion, and black bear archery seasons.

McDonald said a harvest quota of 186 wolves would likely reduce the wolf population by about 13 percent, to a predicted 439 wolves living in packs at the end of 2010. A harvest quota of 216 is projected to reduce the wolf population to 403 wolves living in packs, or by about 20 percent. These projections include anticipated reductions due to livestock depredation and mortalities from other events, like accidents and natural causes.

McDonald noted that the proposed harvest alternatives carry specific tradeoffs. ?We believe both options are in line with our wildlife management responsibilities,? he said. ?The lower quota of 186 wolves moves us at a slower management pace, while a quota of 216 wolves allows us to move a bit more rapidly to address the wildlife and livestock depredation issues that are occurring. In both cases, we know these quotas are conservative and in line with what we think will be viewed as reasonable proposals. We need to hear how the commission and public feel about the pace and the associated tradeoffs.?

The public will have an opportunity to comment on any proposal approved by the commission. The statewide meetings to discuss the proposals will be held June 2. The public comment period is expected to run through June 14. A final decision on the wolf season and quota is set for July 8.

For the 2010 wolf hunt, northwestern Montana would have a total of nine wolf management units with a total quota of 122 or 133 wolves; western Montana would have two management units with a total quota of 26 or 31 wolves; and the three proposed management units in the southwestern portion of the state would have a total quota of 38 or 52 wolves. Eastern Montana is included in hunting units as well.

?Montana?s approach to wolf management continues to be balanced, scientific and measured,? McDonald said. ?We?ve learned a lot over the past year and our proposals for 2010 reflect a rigorous, science-based effort to manage the total number of wolves that can be taken by hunters while maintaining a balance among all wildlife, their habitats and the people who live here. That balance will include managing for a recovered wolf population while addressing livestock depredation and impacts to other wildlife. It's our responsibility to address the fact that more than 200 sheep and about 100 head of cattle were killed by wolves last year and that wolves have depressed deer and elk populations in some areas.?

Last year, during Montana?s first ever regulated wolf hunt, hunters harvested 72 wolves between Sept. 15 and Nov. 16. As hunters approached the overall harvest quota of 75 wolves, FWP closed the hunt about two weeks before the season was scheduled to end to ensure the quota would not be exceeded.

McDonald stressed that FWP will continue to monitor the wolf population before, during, and after the hunting season to determine how the population responds.

Wolf hunting season dates would generally correspond with the opening of Montana?s big game hunting seasons. All wolf hunting would close Dec. 31, if quotas aren't reached earlier. Hunting licenses will cost $19 for residents and $350 for nonresidents. License sales should begin in August.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-10 AT 08:52AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-08-10 AT 07:30?AM (MST)

bUZZ - Nice elk. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile. I wonder what the hunting was like there 10 yrs ago and what it will be like 10 yrs from now. I wonder what numbers you will pull out to explain things away then.

Why don't you come to Idaho and trap some wolves for us because your numbers have no recourse here. Wolves ARE the major problem here. It is sad to see outfitters that have been doing elk hunts for 39 yrs, go out of business because their bookings have dropped through the floor.

Did you see the economic impact study that Idaho did that showed we lost IIRR, $9 million last year, because of the wolves? Where is the revenue the wolf lovers promised us if we had wolves to view?

I hope you and your opinions are in the minority. You really are just a wolf in sheep's clothing and your kind is more dangerous to big game than a flat out, tree-hugging liberal environmentalist.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-10 AT 11:30AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-08-10 AT 11:29?AM (MST)

thirtythirty,

I dont have to wonder what the hunting was like in that country 10 years ago...or even 30 years ago...or even 40.

I've been hunting and/or trapping that country since 1979...my Father since the early 1960's and my Grandfather since the late 1940's.

I've seen a lot of change in that country, and most of it favorable.

Between my Dad, Grandfather, Brother and I...along with a few friends we've taken 137 whitetail, 23 mule deer, and 56 elk from the major drainage we hunt since 1980. I know that my Father and Grandfather took some animals there before, but I dont really know how many.

I've kept detailed trapping and hunting journals since 1980, paying particular attention to animal sightings, tracks, weather conditions, snow accumulation, etc. etc. etc.

When I first hunted that country in 1980, it was rare to see more than 10-12 deer a day, mostly mule deer. Starting in about 1985, whitetails really took off. All through the late 80's and through the late 90's the whitetail population went absolutely crazy. The populations on whitetail remained high and with massive road closures, the population peaked around 2005. Since then, aggressive over-the-counter doe permits for both R and NR has taken a severe toll. My hunting camp is partly to blame, 14-16 deer taken in a week was common, along with an elk or three. We rarely took mule deer, even though their numbers have increased slightly since the early 1980's largely because of no open doe seasons and also the road closures.

Interestingly, elk have remained pretty constant population wise the whole time. But, what has changed since the road closures is the age structure of bull elk. There are more branch-antlered bulls NOW than there was even in the early 1980's. Most of that has to do with road closures and some to do with the unit going to brow-tined bull only about 4 years ago.

Deer numbers (whitetails) since 2005 have declined severely...I blame that on 2 items.

1. Hunters in that area were allowed up to 4 deer tags EACH, including their A-tag (buck or doe) and 2 OTC antlerless permits and another through the draw.

2. A marked increase in lion populations, largely because the lion hunting went from a quota system where everyone could hunt with a general cat permit to what we've had the last two years, where hunters need top draw a special permit to hunt them at all. The lion harvest has dropped from over 100 cats a year prior to the "permit only" hunting to about 10-12 cats the last couple years. This is consistant with what I'm seeing. In the years between 1979-2005 I saw a total of 4 cats, one of which I killed with a friend who had hounds, saw the other 3 while hunting deer and elk. From 2006-2009 I've seen 9 cats while deer and elk hunting, I have video of 4 of those lions. Tracks that I made note of would run maybe 2-5 cat tracks a year while elk and deer hunting from 1979-2005. The last 3 years, I've cut as many as 5 seperate cat tracks a day, and I dont note every cat track I see anymore. Theres also wolves in the area, but not even close to as many wolves as lions.

IMO, and from what I personally witnessed, the largest impact to the reduced number of deer is over-harvesting by hunters. There were a lot of antlerless deer taken from the drainage in the 3 years you could buy OTC permits. Thats reflected in the check station harvest statitistics as well. I've talked with the area Biologist and his conclusions are similar to mine.

But, the elk hunting is better, the bull I took was with another nice 6 point and 2 other smaller, but legal brow-tined bulls. I saw elk every day I hunted with my Dad and Brother after taking my bull.

Also of note is that in the years between 1979-2003 we only shot one six point in there.

That would be this one I took in 1987:

buzzsixpoint.JPG


Since 2004, we've taken two six points, the one in the pictures above and this one my Dad shot:

dadelk04.jpg


We've taken more brow-tined bulls in the last 7-8 years than the previous 25+.

Elk populations are staying pretty constant.
 
Buzz,

What about the 5-6 calves per 100 cow ratio? Yes I agree they have too many cow permits. What was hunter success rates the past couple years compared to the last 10-15 yrs prior to wolves?

You say wolves is a quick fix? ID sold over 26,000 tags and didn't reach their quota of 220 wolves.

How are wolf populations going to be drastically reduced in remote areas?

See the original plan was to have 100 wolves in MT,ID, and MT. It was agreed upon the wolf lovers, sportsmen, ranchers, and other parties from what I have heard and read. Now there are about 1,700 wolves and wolf lovers groups want 5,000 wolves. They can't be trusted. They spend their money on law suits to fight hunting. They don't spend money on habitat or to preserve wildlife. They want to do away with hunting and ranching.

They want to do away with what people love to do on this site. Hunt, ranch, trap, taxidermy, outfit, etc.

The bottom line. Wolf populations are and have exploded far more and faster than the experts thought. Elk populations are declining. Drastically in places. Ranchers are going out of business in some areas because of wolf numbers.

I don't mind having 100 wolves in each of the three states like the original plan stated.
 
Heres an example of some deer...

I shot this buck in 1990, shortly after the whitetails really took off, this was by far the best buck we'd taken to that point:

hvywt.JPG


Through the 90's...

buzzwt3.JPG


buzzwt1.JPG


mattswt2.JPG


Gramps with one:

grampswt1.JPG


95whitetail.JPG


96wtail..JPG


Gramps with another:

grampswtdoe.JPG


Dad with one:

dads02wt.JPG
 
Didnt suck in the 2000's either...

matts04mtwt2.JPG


case04mtwt.JPG


buzz04mtwt.JPG


whitetail2.JPG


wtail012.JPG


mtwt203.JPG


case03buck.JPG


dads03deer.JPG


IMG_0809_1_1.JPG


IMG_1555.JPG


IMG_2796.JPG


I have a lot more pictures...but the point is, I know whats going on in the country I hunt.
 
Huntin100,

Painting with a broad brush in that reply...which specific areas are you talking about with cow/calf ratios of 5-6 per 100?

Statewide that surely isnt the case, far from it.

The over-all hunter success rate in Montana has been 21-24 percent for as long as I can remember. It hasnt fluctuated much, if at all, since wolf reintroduction...speaking statewide.

Individual units, yep, things fluctuate way more and in some areas that does have to do with wolves, or more than likely, a combination of wolves, other predators, and hunting.

Thats why I posted the above article, Montana is going to create more wolf areas to address problems in a more specific way, like 5-6 calves per 100 cows, areas where wolf and livestock problems exist, where higher wolf populations occur, etc.

Also, the numbers you quote were a MINIMUM number, and there had to be at least 30 breeding pairs with at least 300 total wolves for a minimum of 3 consecutive years. That was achieved in 2002, and IMO, that is when control should have been given to the States. The reason it didnt has nothing to do with wolf huggers, greenies, what ever you want to call them. Wyoming caused the problem because their wolf recovery plan was unsatisfactory...the USFWS and the Courts agreed. The only reason the seasons happened last year was because ID and MT were seperated from Wyoming in regard to delisting.

The upcoming court case will have everything to do with the fact that WY still has no acceptable plan. Judge Molloy has already made it CLEAR that Wyoming has the potential to derail the entire delisting. If the case is lost, it will be Wyoming that is to blame...period.

The reason I say that is two-fold:

1. Molloy already allowed delisting to happen via letting the MT and ID seasons commence. The seasons were a success, the wolf population was able to sustain about 600 wolves being killed, and still GREW by 4%.

2. Molloy is bound by the EIS, and the law, to allow State Management of wolves to continue as long as the conditions of the EIS are met (which they are with the exception of WY's lack of an acceptable plan).

If Wyoming would just classify wolves as a big-game species statewide (which would make their plan acceptable), there would be NO legal avenue with a valid reason for the courts take State control of wolves away. But, currently, the loophole being used to stop the delisting is WY's lack of an acceptable plan, which by law and per the EIS is enough to keep the wolves in the tri-state area listed.

What doesnt matter is how anyone feels about Wyomings stance, its all about the EIS and the laws that the states agreed to at the time of reintroduction. The rules didnt change, Wyoming, Montana and Idaho all agreed to the EIS and are obligated under the law to adhere to them.

Wyoming isnt adhering to the law and thats a problem...and a tool that anyone will use to either stall delisting, or keep wolves listed, and thats a fact.

I would also like for you to show some proof of ranchers going out of business because of wolves...havent seen or heard that one yet...

There is a compromise to be had, and I dont question that wolves need to be controlled. But, there are several more issues, just as pressing, if not more so than wolves. The other problem I have is that most people that reply to these types of threads want all wolves eliminated. Wont ever happen, so the dialogue now has to be how can we live with wolves and how can we still have healthy herds of elk?

I think with a combination of controlling wolves (and definately bears and lions), creating better habitat, controlling antlerless elk harvest, revisiting the EMP, setting higher objective numbers,...to name a few things...its very attainable.

The sky isnt falling because of wolves...its just not.
 
Wolves should have never been on the "list". They are not and were never endangered. There are thousands in Canada and Alaska-Hatrick
 
Buzz
You make some good points... there are many issues other than wolves. But I have a few different view points that I must share. Wyoming's plan is the only plan that will work... The reason I say that it's all about habitat. Most of our western states don't have the big chunks of wilderness to sustain wolves without problems with ranching and over predation on our ungulate populations. We have to keep them from spreading . You say the sky is not falling just because of wolves... Ask the boys in the Gallatin and Gardner area of Montana who have outfitted for generations if the sky isn't falling. Ask the boys in the middle fork of the salmon river in Idaho if the sky isn't falling. Ask the boys in Cody Wyoming if the sky isn't falling or the boys in the Teton wilderness around Jackson Wyoming... Buzz you have blinders on if you can't see what is happening in a short period of time with wolves. Have you ever tried to kill a wolf that has been hunted for a couple of generations??? I guess the answer is NO. Please man, join the fight on the right side of the line for your kids if you have any. These big dogs are a biggg problem.
 
WYNONTYPICAL,

No, Wyomings plan will not work, its not an acceptable plan. The feds and courts are never going to accept it, end of story. You cant manage wolves in Wyoming without an acceptable plan...you're dead in the water.

Also, whats going on with wolves has not happened over a short period of time, its been well over 20 years since wolves began to reoccupy Montana, been 15 years since reintroduction.

As to the wolves preying on cattle, etc. easy fix, kill the wolves, just like they've been doing all along. I'm 100 percent in favor of lethal control...be it a rancher defending his livestock or me when I have a tag in my pocket with a legal season going on. I'm all about keeping wolves within reasonable numbers at levels high enough to keep them off the list and keeping control in the hands of the States.

The Gallatin and Gardiner areas are being impacted by wolves, no question. But, theres also been a HUGE increase in Grizzly numbers there in the last 20 years. Grizzlies take a lot of elk, both mature elk and calves as well. In the case of Gardiner, the elk in that population were grossly and artificially inflated because of the park. The herd when it peaked, was heavily skewed toward old, old, and very unproductive elk...in particular with regard to cows. The herd was already in an unproductive state to start with, and I agree that wolves and bears have not helped the situation. But, its also fair to note that elk in the Northern herd are still well within objective numbers. Counts from this year indicate that elk have stabilized at around 6-8K, almost unchanged from last year, but obviously down from the peak at 19,000. Another thing to consider is that in 1968, there were half the elk in the Northern herd than there is TODAY. Its a wildly fluctuating herd to begin with. AGAIN, I see no reason to not control wolves aggressively in the Gallatin and the Gardiner areas. But, its also unfair to blame the situation there all on wolves, because that just isnt the case.

As to the Middle Fork...I've spent considerable time working in that country the last 3 years. Hiked, horsebacked, and flown it as well as talked with locals out of Challis and Salmon. Not all are painting the grim picture you are. A co-worker of mine who lives in Challis, and has lived there his whole life, says that he's never seen more elk than he has the last 5-7 years, he kills a bull every year there near Challis.

Further, I see elk from the plane every time I fly into the middlefork. I've yet to see wolves, but I do see tracks every trip in, and not doubt the population is healthy and also no doubt they can stand to be thinned. I also see plenty of black bears as well...lots of bears.

The thing I'm not seeing is mountains of dead elk in there killed by wolves. Yep, I've found carcasses and again, theres no denying wolves are impacting elk there. I just fail to see depredation at the extent thats posted on these boards...and I look for it, and I'm in the field 150+ days a year at work, most of it wolf country.

A few pics from the last 3 years in the Frank Church:

Mahoney air strip, watched a plane crash on the airstrip while working in Little Loon.

163.JPG


Yours truly at little creek:

196.JPG


Norton Peak and Mahoney Lookout:

173.JPG


Cold Meadows:

cold%20meadows3.JPG


Soldier bar:

soldier%20bar.JPG


One the wolves missed:

d22.JPG


Headwaters of Trapper Creek:

trapper%20cr3.JPG


Birch Creek off Marble...mean country and a long, long hike:

IMG_2581.JPG


Pungo Mountain:

IMG_2602.JPG


Riding off Dead Horse Peak toward the main:

IMG_2972.JPG


Looking back toward Corn Creek:

IMG_2967.JPG
 
Buzz,
It's very obvious no one is going to change your mind with a numbers or a facts so I won't even try. But I would be willing to make a bet with you that our kids will be talking about what the old days were like if we or you don't wake up. For someone who travels the back country as much as it seems you do I am amazed you can't see what is happening in front of your eye's.

Northern Yellowstone Elk herd 19,000 to 6,000 in a little over 10 years. Where are the wolves going to go when the number of elk drops even more???????

Your buddy in Challis is probably seeing more elk in the private land close to town because of the wolf pressure in the backcountry.

Have you done much flying in the back country during prime winter? When the wolves are at their best?? I bet you would see the carnage you miss in the summer...

I have hunted much of the country in the Frank Church you have pictured and it has changed in a hurry from wolves. I watched the first wolves go down the road to corn creek in the back of the fed's trucks. Not much has changed other than the wolf and lack of elk...
 
WYNONTYPICAL,

What facts and numbers have been provided...other than the numbers and facts I've provided? I'm more than willing to change my mind when I'm provided with facts, provided with some pertenant data, etc.


Theres a lot of emotion and hearsay posted by most on this thread...and a noted lack of anything to do with facts.

I'm well aware of the NY elk herd and the numbers...have I ever implied I havent? The MT EMP has herd data back to the early 1960's...wild fluctuations before a wolf population was ever established. How do you explain those fluctuations...when there wasnt wolves to blame? Did Scottie beam them up?

I'm also fully aware that its more than a wolf issue, and all the data I've found states that very thing.

I'm sure you're also aware that the wolf population in Yellowstone has been in decline for a few years due to disease issues? You also know that elk populations seem to have stabilized at 6-8 thousand?

You should also note that wolf quotas are going to increase STATEWIDE, and that will reduce the wolf population.

Theres only so much that can be done, and total removal of wolves will not happen...ever. I dont need to bet on that, its just the way it is.

Which leads me to believe that we HAVE to address the other issues adversly effecting elk if we want to increase elk numbers. We can only do so much with the wolves, the state is only going to kill so many, and the Feds will not allow numbers to drop below what was agreed to in the EIS. There will always be more than 30 breeding pairs and the poplation will likely NEVER drop to anything close to 300. Wont happen, theres too much at stake, too much to lose if the state hammers wolves back to those numbers. There is NO QUESTION that if wolves are killed back to less than 30 breeding pairs and less than 300 total, the Feds will retake control and those wolves will never come off the list again. Then, you will have a wolf problem, one that makes the 1700 we currently have look like a Sunday picnic.

I believe if the other issues with elk in MT, WY, and ID are addressed, having 1000-1500 wolves will not be a huge deal. IMO, it would be optimal to have 500-750 wolves as long as the minimums requirements were met. I dont think thats realistic, but what I'd like to see.

We have to come up with some things that will allow for 1000-1500 wolves and still have healthy elk herds as well. The reason I say that is because I seriously doubt the States will allow wolves to be controlled at anything much less, I could be wrong. I'm convinced we can deal with that scenerio if we increase wolf harvest, increase bear and lion harvest, keep up with habitat improvements, revist the EMP (to get higher elk objectives), quit the late hunts in MT (like the Madison a few years ago), and decrease the antlerless harvest.

I dont see wolves being the limiting factor to get Montana from 136,000 elk to 200,000+...
 
Buzz,
What is your occupation??? I'm serious what do you do for a living. Why are you in the back country so much???

I do not have facts that come from an educated zoologist or biologist, but what I have is observation from people who have spent a lifetime living or making a living in the backcountry. People who don't depend on a survey to tell them the health of a herd. People who have read the so called experts numbers of what is going on in the backcountry and call BS. It seems sometimes the more educated the study the further from reality it is. Turn to the back page of the study and find out who funded it and see where it leans before you read it. For example the Idaho fish and games system of counting game...It's a joke.

Buzz who funds you????

About the north yellowstone elk herd, the lack there of, that is what is to come to all elk herds if the wolf is left unchecked or politically controlled. Think about it buzz, North Yellowstone area is ground zero for wolf reintroduction. They have been established the longest in the lamar valley. Plus think about how many more wolves we would have in the North Yellowstone area without the Parvovirus in the packs.

In 1996 I personally watched with my own eye's 4-5000 elk in one herd. There was more than one herd of that size after a big storm. You used the number of 19,000 elk. I heard numbers that were over 22,000. We would see wolves and they ran the hell out of the herds, but look at what has happened in short order. You have your proof right under your nose.

The part you have not figured in about politically correct wolf control is just because there are tags available does not mean wolves will be controlled. Do you understand that you have to kill over 80 percent of the population to control growth. They grow exponentially once you disrupt the packs by hunting. The more you hunt them the faster they grow.... That is a fact, ask the boys in Alaska and Canada, that is proven.
 
Buzz, you have made some good points, but I think you are a little off on the Northern Yellowstone herd.

It is certainly not possible to say the herd has stabilized at 6k - 8k animals. The actual populations the last three years has been between 6k - 7k, and the likely reason is the reduction in wolf numbers due to disease. Now that wolf numbers are increasing, I expect we will also see the reduction in the elk numbers increase as well. It is also interesting to note that Moose have disappeared from much of that area. No other explanation I am aware of except wolf predation.

I always find it interesting when I hear the Northern Yellowstone herd is around the objective. In fact, the biologists managing this project claimed that it was good the elk herds were finally down to objective when the numbers hit 11,000, then again at 9,000. Now, they are at least admitting wintering elk within the park are below objective, and at the very low end of the acceptable numbers in Montana adjacent to the park.

In some ways, the scary thing about Idaho is that wolf predation combined with overharvest has caused some populations to crash at a much faster rate than in Yellowstone. That will be what happens here in Oregon, and likely in Colorado when wolves get established.

The biggest problem with wolves regarding elk, and one that get's little discussion, is the impact on the health of cows, and subsequent reductions in calf ratios that has now been well established. A recent four year study in Yellowstone found that the effects of wolf harassment on cow elk in late winter and spring was a far more serious problem than direct predation when it came to population declines. Given we already have very low calf/cow ratios here in Oregon, that will likely be the bigger problem here as well.

Finally, the conservation groups behind most of the legal action are NOT looking to maintain wolf populations at their current levels. Most of them appear to be promoting a plan that would see somewhere around 6,000 wolves in what they call the Northern Range, basically north of I-70 across Colorado to I-15 in Utah, then south to Las Vegas. Anyone who thinks 6,000 wolves in that area will not result in the end of elk hunting as we know it has smoked too many funny cigarettes.

Scoutdog
 
Buzz,

When ID sold more than 26,000 permits. Had a long season. The first year of hunting, when wolves were not so afraid. They still didn't reach the quota of 220 wolves.
When wolves multiple like they do. This is a huge concern.

I hunt several western states. I wanted to hunt moose in WY and had several bonus points. Some of the top units 8-10 yrs ago were around Jackson. non res get 25% of the permits. over the last 10 yrs, the number of permits FOR NON RES. went from 20 to 3 permits in the unit I wanted to hunt. Look at the loss of opportunity to hunt. This is JUST the non res. permit numbers. Not much change in habitat, weather, etc. The change was wolves.

You don't need to be very smart to know if wolf numbers aren't decreased, it will CONTINUE to impact hunting. If the wolf numbers go to 5-6,000 like these wolf loving groups want, there will be little to hunt, and no need to hunt. There will not be a surplus of animals to hunt. I think your smart enough to see this.
 
Buzz - Ok, I get it now. Your are the worlds greatest hunter and your opinion on wolves is gospel. Here is a star to put on your forehead. You can probably spend all day posting picture (and it looks like you have)but it still doesn't really answer my concerns.

My wife's family has outfitted in the Salmon/Challis area for 39 freaking years! In five years time, they went from making bank to owing the bank. It was not from over harvesting, it was from WOLVES and nothing else. What about the $9 million in lost revenue for the state? I guess if it doesn't effect you personally, then there is no reason to change or consider something else. Some of your opinions may be valid but the way you dismiss all others is myopic so why should be any different?

It looks like you have enjoyed some good hunting through the years. Will your grandchildren say the same thing if things remain status quo? I have seen first hand what the wolves have done to Idaho. Keep throwing out stats and posting pics. I will take first hand experiences and base my opinions on something a little more tangible.
 
Buzz,

+1,000,000, I'm sure you realize it but it is very difficult to educate those that do not want to be educated. They are entitled to their opinions and that is exactly what they have, OPINIONS, no matter how unfounded they may be.

After reading through this entire thread it is very apparent that you are much more involved in the issue than any of the others who continue to side step your questions. I would just like to say that while it seems the majority don't BELIEVE/COMPREHEND/ACCEPT the facts and data you have presented, there are some of us that appreciate it.

Its lonely at the top.... just the way I like it.
 
Buzzh,
whats a matter buzz? you dont seem to want to answere my good buddy from WY questions. You dont want everyone to see you for who you really are! My guess is you are one of thoughs putting out all of thoughs bogus statistics. But I could be wrong, I guess that is something we will never know. Because you wouldnt admit it even if it was true.
 
well...........

all this bullsh!t aside, i WILL shoot any wolf i ever come across. ( wether you treehuggers like it or not:)) if i can personally stop them from coming to colorado- i will:)
 
What kills me, is when someone likes to cloud the facts with a bunch of liberal BS and will say the sun is not shining at noon day and look at it and go blind to prove their point. If Buzz thinks the impact is minimal due to wolves why don't he go and buy one of the outfitters businesses that are for sale in the wolf infested areas he hunts.

There is no question that game numbers went up and down pre wolf introduction due to predators, mis management, and weather. The problem is they have introduced a super killer that kills so efficiently that the numbers will keep crashing. There will be little hope of those numbers returning to huntable populations once they crash to a level of no return, hence an end of hunting as we know it. Hunters lose, Anti Hunters win.

I like putting things simple, because when it's simple it usually is true. When it's complicated it is usually filled with mis-information. We don't have the game to support wolf populations anymore and continue sport hunting. Pre white man, the west was full of game and you had a fixed number of wolves per area, because they limited themselves in numbers to given areas. With the large number of game animals, 200 years ago, a pack of wolves could take 2 or 3 hundred animals per year in a given game unit of today and no one would of noticed with the thousands of animals of buffalo, elk, etc. Today that same 2 or 3 hundred today being taken by wolves per year, means the end of Big game hunting in that unit eventually.

If hunters want any hunting left in 50 years they better start getting involved politically and financially to groups who will fight for us and for state's rights. We can turn it around, but we got to get involved.
 
Frontier,

You are correct! The key is get involved and stop letting guys like buzz or In_The Shallows make the most noise.... Stand up for what you hold valuable!!! Or watch it fall apart.
 
A freakin men boys, we can't let these guys like buzz and in the shadow ruin it for our grandkids.
 
According to Buzz,

"Take a good look at the years prior to wolf reintroduction...a drop of over 8,000 elk from 1988-1989...before wolves were reintroduced.

Wonder what caused that decline???

Another drop of a couple thousand from 89-90 to 90-91...hmmmm....also before wolves.

veddy interesting also from the EMP regarding the GYE, page 276:

In addition to wolves, results of an ongoing elk calf mortality study in YNP indicate that grizzly and black bear predation is the major cause of elk calf mortality during the first few weeks of life.
---------------------------------------------------------------

1988 was the year of the big fires in YNP, and elk populations plummented, so that stands to reason.

There are an estimated 400 wolves in Montana, each taking between 25 and 80 elk per year. (10,000 to 32,000).

http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2009/02/11/wolves-reducing-elk-populations-in-montana/

Also assuming that the wolf population is not spread out evenly across the state, it stands to reason that some elk herds are being devistated by wolves, along with bears and cats.

It seems simple enough to me. Other factors influence elk populations, but can these numbers be denied?
 
25-80 elk a year!?!?!
Your low number is still double the actual. Where on earth did you pull that number from?
 
Final Rule to Establish a
Gray Wolf ? Northern Rocky Mountain Distinct Population Segment and Remove
from the Federal List of Threatened and Endangered Species
IMPORTANT NOTE: the delisting of the northern Rocky Mountain gray wolf
population becomes effective [May 4, 2009] which is 30 days after the publication of
the final rule in the Federal Register on April 2, 2009.
The wolf population in the northern Rocky Mountains (NRM) has exceeded its
numerical, distributional, and temporal recovery goals every year since 2002. The States
of Montana and Idaho have made strong commitments to maintain wolf populations well
above minimum recovery levels. In combination with continued U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service (Service) management in Wyoming, the NRM population will contain over 1,200
wolves at its low point in mid-winter. Therefore, the Service is designating a northern
Rocky Mountain wolf Distinct Population Segment (DPS) that will include all of
Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming, the eastern third of Washington and Oregon, and a small
corner of north-central Utah. This wolf population will be removed from the protection of
the Endangered Species Act [Act], except in Wyoming.
All threats to the wolf population in the northern Rocky Mountain DPS, except the lack
of adequate state regulatory mechanisms in Wyoming, have been resolved, as evidenced
by the wolf population?s healthy annual growth, high genetic diversity, wide-spread
distribution and the legally binding written commitments for future wolf conservation
made by Montana and Idaho. The Service will remove the entire NRM DPS, except
Wyoming, from the federal list of threatened and endangered species. This final delisting
action for the NRM population will not affect the status of wolves in any other part of the
United States.
What is the current status of the NRM wolf population?
Currently, there are at least 1,645 wolves in the NRM living in about 217 packs, at least
95 of which contained an adult male and adult female that successfully raised two or
more pups through 2008. Another 500 or more pups will likely be born in April 2009.
Resident wolf packs occupy nearly all the suitable wolf habitat covering110,000 square
miles of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. The wolf population is highly genetically
diverse because wolves from many different Canadian packs were reintroduced in the
NRM, subsequent management relocations, and the phenomenal natural dispersal
abilities of wolves. The range of NRM wolves is a 400- mile southern extension of a vast
Canadian wolf population of over 12,000 in Alberta and British Columbia and nearly 60-
70,000 wolves in all of North America. Considering the present healthy annual growth,
genetic diversity, and widespread distribution, only excessive and prolonged levels of
unregulated killing of wolves by people over a very large area could threaten the NRM
wolf population in the future. The federal and state governments have laws, regulations,
management plans, cooperative agreements, and memorandums of understanding to
prevent such a scenario from ever happening.
What has been the level of conflict between wolves and people?
Since 1987, confirmed kills by wolves total 1,109 cattle, 2,133 sheep, 115 dogs, 21
- 2 -
llamas, 28 goats, and 10 horses. Although the rate of kills is increasing, reported
conflicts per 100 wolves in the NRM wolf population is lower than predicted. Last year
was a record for conflicts with at least 214 cattle, 355 sheep, 18 other large domestic
animals [llamas, goats, and horses], and 14 dogs being confirmed killed by wolves.
Studies indicate in worst case scenarios, only one in eight wolf-caused losses of calves
can be confirmed by agency investigators. In 2008, $476,000 was paid by private and
state wolf damage compensation programs. In 2008 USDA Wildlife Services spent
nearly $1,000,000 dealing with problem wolves. In 2008, the management agencies
killed 264 wolves because of livestock depredation, but the NRM wolf population still
increased 8% from 2007 levels. As the wolf population increases and wolves
increasingly try to occupy areas intensively used for livestock production, the rate of
conflict per wolf and level of wolf removal needed to resolve conflicts increases
substantially.
Is the wolf population biologically recovered in the NRM?
The NRM wolf population is biologically recovered and it no longer meets the legal
requirements to remain listed under the Endangered Species Act (Act). The minimum
recovery goal for the NRM is a wolf population that never goes below ?Thirty or more
breeding pair comprising some 300+ wolves in a metapopulation (a population that exists
as partially isolated sets of subpopulations) with genetic exchange between
subpopulations. Montana, Idaho and the Service in Wyoming will manage for at least 15
breeding pair and 150 wolves to ensure each state?s portion of the population never goes
below 10 breeding pairs and 100 wolves. In late 2002, the wolf population achieved its
minimum recovery goal of at least 30 breeding pairs and more than 300 wolves well
distributed among Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming for at least three consecutive years. At
that time there were an estimated 663 wolves in 49 breeding pairs. The recovery goal has
been exceeded every year since 2002, and all threats to the species have been addressed.
Currently, the wolf population in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming is over 95 breeding
pairs and at least 1,645 wolves. The states will manage the population to exceed 1,200
wolves after delisting, far above minimum recovery levels.
Does Wyoming now have an approved State law and wolf management
plan?
No, Wyoming does not have a Service-approved wolf management plan. After the
federal court injunction on July 18, 2008 the Service took a much closer look at the
Wyoming State law and Wyoming?s implementing regulations. We determined
Wyoming?s regulatory framework did not meet the purposes of the Act. Wyoming law
did not allow the Wyoming Game and Fish Department to keep some of the
commitments made in its wolf management plan. Consequently, wolves in all of
Wyoming will continue to be managed by the Service until Wyoming can develop a law,
regulatory frame, and management plan that the Service determines meets the purposes
of the Act.
Does the Endangered Species Act require wolves to be maintained
throughout all of Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming?
No, the recovery goals only mandate that each state maintain a wolf population that never
- 3 -
goes below 10 breeding pairs and 100 wolves per state and is managed for more than 15
breeding pairs and 150 wolves per state. Montana intends to manage for over 400
wolves, Idaho will manage 500, and Service management in Wyoming will maintain
about 300. The States also committed to maintain adequate distribution and genetic
diversity of wolves in the NRM. However, there are many parts of Montana, Idaho and
Wyoming where historic wolf habitat has been so modified by human use that it can no
longer support wolves due to an acceptable level of chronic conflicts. The Service fully
recognizes that wolves cannot occupy their entire historic range and supports limiting
wolf pack distribution to suitable habitat to reduce conflicts with people, as long as wolf
recovery is not threatened.
After the wolves in the northern Rocky Mountains are delisted, how
many wolves must the States manage?
Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming have each committed to manage at least 15 breeding
pairs and at least 150 wolves in mid-winter to provide a buffer to ensure that the NRM
wolf population never falls below the mandated minimum level of 30 breeding pairs and
300 wolves (10 breeding pairs and 100 wolves per state). If the wolf population drops
below that level, the Service could take actions to protect wolves through the Service?s
emergency listing authority under the Act. Service and National Park Service
management in Wyoming will maintain about 300 wolves.
After delisting, what happens to wolves outside the NRM wolf DPS?
This action will not affect the status of any wolves outside of the northern Rocky
Mountain wolf DPS. The status of wolves under the Act is determined by their location.
Therefore, any wolf outside the boundary of the northern Rocky Mountain wolf DPS
would retain its current status. For example, if a wolf dispersed to Colorado, it would be
listed as endangered. Wolves in the Western Great Lakes DPS are also being delisted but
any wolves outside that area would likewise remain protected as endangered.
Is the NRM wolf population threatened by low genetic diversity?
All experts agree that the NRM wolf population is highly genetically diverse. There
aren't any conservation problems related to its current level of genetic diversity. Right
now there are at least 1,645 wolves in the NRM & they live in about 217 packs, at least
95 of which successfully raised pups. Another 500 or more pups will be born in April
2009. The Service and the states committed to maintain over 1,000 wolves in the NRM.
The NRM population is highly genetically diverse because wolves from many different
Canadian packs were reintroduced, subsequent management relocations, and the
phenomenal natural dispersal abilities of wolves. Both relocated and long-distance
naturally dispersing wolves have bred in all three recovery areas. There is nothing short
of excessive and prolonged levels of unregulated killing by people over a very large area
that could affect the NRM wolf population?s genetic health into the future- and that
clearly won't happen. Montana, Idaho and the Service have agreed to manage the wolf
population well above minimum recovery levels, promote continued natural dispersal
between recovery areas, monitor genetic health, and in the highly unlikely event it was
ever required, relocate wolves, easily correcting any theoretical genetic problems.
- 4 -
Who made the final decision to delist wolves?
Acting Service Director Rowan Gould made the decision, consistent with the Act's
requirements.
After wolves are delisted, will there be any federal oversight?
Once a species is delisted a state or tribe has sole management responsibility. The Act
includes many safeguards to ensure that the wolf population will remain recovered for the
foreseeable future. For example, the Act mandates the Service to monitor the wolf
population for at least five years after delisting. This helps to ensure the population
remains above recovery levels and emerging threats do not jeopardize the wolf
population. Mandatory annual reports by the states and the Service?s analysis of them
will be posted on the Service website during that period. Protections of the Act would be
reinstated should the wolf population again become threatened or endangered. In
addition, any organization or person, at any time, may petition the Service to relist
wolves if they believed the wolf population has been again threatened or endangered.
The Service is required by law to use the best science to make that determination.
After delisting, what are the roles and responsibilities of tribes?
Tribes manage resident wildlife on tribal reservations. Once wolves are delisted each
tribe will manage wolves on their lands or assist others with management where they
have treaty rights or agreements. Some tribes have also taken a management role on
other lands. For example, the Nez Perce Tribe led a highly successful wolf management
effort in Idaho administered under a cooperative agreement with the Service from 1995 to
2005. The Tribe and State of Idaho signed a cooperative agreement in 2005 to maintain
the Tribe?s involvement in wolf management after delisting. States and tribes will
address any tribal treaty right issues on other lands, such as potential for tribal harvest,
just as they currently do for other resident wildlife species.
How will livestock and wolf conflicts be handled after wolves are
delisted?
The Service, tribes, state fish and wildlife agencies in Montana and Idaho, and USDA
Wildlife Services currently work together to investigate and respond to reports of
suspected wolf damage to livestock. The states and tribes have cooperative management
agreements with USDA Wildlife Services to assist them with wolf management. Once
wolves are delisted, the states and tribes will continue working with USDA Wildlife
Services to investigate and manage conflicts between wolves and livestock. The states
have laws to protect private property from damage caused by wildlife. The state laws are
similar to the federal experimental population regulations that were in effect while
wolves were listed. Under those laws, landowners and grazing permittees will be able to
legally shoot wolves attacking or molesting their domestic animals, just as they now can
shoot resident black bears or mountain lions that are seen attacking or harassing their
livestock. In Wyoming management of conflicts with livestock will continue to be
addressed by the Service under the 1994 experimental population regulations.
Does delisting of the northern Rocky Mountain wolf DPS mean that
wolves can be hunted?
- 5 -
Yes, wolves can be hunted once the delisting takes effect, if states or tribes establish
hunting seasons and related regulations designed to maintain the wolf population above
agreed upon levels. The number of wolves killed by hunters would be tightly regulated
to ensure the wolf population is never threatened. The states and tribes already have
hunting seasons for many species of resident wildlife, including black bear, elk, deer, and
moose. Regulated hunting programs have a strong record of helping conserve wildlife
populations. When wolf populations are well above 15 breeding pairs in Montana and 20
breeding pairs in Idaho, the State fish and wildlife agencies may propose public hunting
seasons to help manage wolf numbers and wolf pack distribution to reduce damage to
private property and balance wolf predation to native prey abundance. The Service
supports regulated public hunting programs as important tools to help manage and
conserve recovered wildlife populations. Federal authority for conserving wolf
populations in Wyoming and in national parks, such as Yellowstone and Glacier will
remain in place.
After delisting will the states and tribes allow hunters to kill most of the
wolves?
No, while Montana and Idaho are both planning to establish highly regulated public hunts
for wolves, just as they conduct for mountain lions, black bears, elk and deer, but those
hunts will be highly regulated. Wolf hunting would be allowed in fall during seasons for
elk and deer. Each wolf hunting area has a maximum number of wolves that can be
harvested. A hunter must call in just before going hunting to make sure that area is still
open. Successful hunters must report killing a wolf within a day. Once the quota is
reached the area is closed for hunting. The fall hunting seasons are designed to assure
that wolf dispersal and breeding aren't significantly disrupted. Montana will maintain
400 wolves and Idaho over 500 after hunting seasons have concluded. Very few wolves
live solely on tribal lands but tribal hunting maybe allowed there and in other areas
covered by tribal treaty rights in accordance with those treaties and other agreements.
Wolves in Wyoming will continue to be managed by the Service and public hunting can
not be allowed. Hunting will not be allowed in National Parks. The states of
Washington, Oregon, and Utah have no plans to hunt wolves at this time. Regulated
public hunting can be valuable and cost-effective wildlife management tool to conserve
healthy wildlife populations, fund wildlife conservation, maintain and improve local
human tolerance of wolves, and manage the numbers and distribution of wildlife
populations to reduce conflicts with people.
Can the States manage wolves?
Yes. It is important to remember that State fish and wildlife agencies and sportsmen
made wolf recovery possible by restoring wolf prey, including elk, deer and moose. The
states also already manage healthy populations of other large predators such as mountain
lions, and black bears. They have professional fish and wildlife organizations with
hundreds of employees, including biologists, wardens, researchers, educators, and
managers who have done an incredible job of restoring and managing wildlife in their
states. The States of Montana and Idaho have done an outstanding job managing wolves
in their states since 2004 under cooperative agreements with the Service. The written
- 6 -
commitments the states have made in their wolf management plans ensure that they will
do the same for wolves once they are delisted. In the unlikely event that the states do not
meet the terms of their management plans, the Service can take action to again protect
wolves under the Act.
Who is paying for all of this?
While listed under the Act, the federal government has paid most of the costs for wolf
restoration and management through annual appropriations from Congress for
endangered species recovery. In 2008, about $3.6 million was spent on wolf
management in the NRM, including funding for Idaho and Montana and the Nez Perce
Tribe. Once wolves are delisted, states will begin to fund some of the cost of wolf
management through other funding sources, including other types of federal funding.
The Service will continue to fund its management of wolves in Wyoming.
Who will pay livestock compensation after delisting?
Since 1987, a private group, the Defenders of Wildlife, has paid nearly $900,000 for
livestock and herding and guarding animals killed by wolves in the northern Rocky
Mountains. However, it is uncertain if that private compensation program will continue
when wolves are delisted. Therefore, the States of Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming,
established State-administered compensation programs for wolf damage that will
complement or take the place of the Defenders program after delisting. In 2009, about
$284,000 was paid by the states and $183,000 from a private compensation program for
damage caused by wolves. In addition, Congress established a federal grant program in
2009 to help states reduce and compensate for livestock damage caused by wolves.
How will the States that have portions of their States outside the
proposed DPS boundary be affected?
Wolves outside the DPS boundaries of the NRM and Western Great Lakes
populations will remain listed as endangered. If control actions are needed, the Service
has a number of options, including removing the problem wolf. Additionally, state
management could involve nonlethal control of problem wolves and relocation.
Will other States in the West need to have Service-approved wolf
management plans?
No. The significant portion of the range for the NRM population of gray wolves is
Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. Service-approved wolf management plans are needed
only for those states to ensure the wolf population will remain recovered. If Wyoming
developed a plan that met the purposes of the Act and Service approved it, a separate
rulemaking, including opportunity for public comment, would be proposed to delist
wolves in Wyoming.
Who is the point of contact regarding wolf issues after wolves are
delisted?
The State wildlife agencies in Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, and Utah are the
primary contacts for wolves within the NRM DPS. In Wyoming the Service is the
primary contact. There will be no federal regulations and no specific federal authority for
- 7 -
wolf management within the boundaries of the DPS, except in Wyoming and within the
National Parks. Wolves in national parks will remain under the management authority of
the National Park Service. On national wildlife refuges, the individual refuge should be
contacted. On tribal lands, the tribes have management authority, and they should be
contacted.
-FWS

Now everyone can be an expert. BTW a pack kills AT LEAST an elk every other day. So if you believe there are 400 wolves in MT and packs average 8 then that makes a minimum of 9,000 elk a year being killed by wolves in MT. So, Randy11 his numbers weren't that far off. And my guess is there are more wolves than we know. NEW Packs are being established all the time.

HK
 
Every science based, peer reviewed study done on wolf predation in the Northern Rockies has found a number between 12-15 elk per year per wolf. 15 to 80 is quite the reach.

I love that wolves are finally being controlled, and can't wait to whack one this fall. But what's the point in grossly exaggerating the numbers like that? It just makes you look uneducated on the subject.
And just speaking in terms of MT here, the numbers stayed the same last year, so no, there aren't new packs being formed all the time.
 
...from a president of a shooting association. Real great source for a biology question.

http://www.yellowstonepark.com/MoreToKnow/ShowNewsDetails.aspx?newsid=10
Claims 22 per year in winter, which as we all know are wolves most active time, hence consuming more meat

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FRO/is_2_135/ai_84967172/
1.8 elk per month per wolf = 20ish. Again, winter study, and they even admit in this they kill more elk in winter than summer.

http://www.journalnet.com/news/local/article_639aacda-1232-11df-87ef-001cc4c03286.html
Idaho Biologists came up with 16 per year.

I was a little low, evidently at the time of reintroduction they were using 12 as a basis, and are now finding that to be a little low, my bad.

Either way, throwing around a number like 25-80 is just crazy.
 
Randy,

I don't know the specific numbers, I think some are guesses. Some from models.

There is ample evidence that stress from harassment causes cow elk to abort more calves. This lowers cow calf ratios. These numbers need to some how be factored in.

Also the decrease in populations from continued harassment leading to starvation, malnourishment, and disease. This needs to be factored in.

Wolves don't take a day off from harassing wildlife. Even if they are not hungry, they don't just sit around. They chase wildlife daily. Huge problems. Huge impacts.

I don't mind 100-150 wolves in each state. 1,800 in the 3 states combined is a joke. It's wiping out some herds. FACT

5,000-6,000 wolves is now what our wolf loving groups want. Far greater number than the original agreement.
 
WAIT TILL SOME OF THESE GUYS THAT ARE SOFT ON WOLVES, CANT DRAW A TAG, CANT FIND ANIMALS IN THEIR HONEY HOLES.....IT WILL BE TOO LATE. KINDA LIKE THE OUTFITTERS THAT HAVE BEEN WOLFED OUT OF BUSINESS THUS FAR. A ELK/ MOOSE REBOUND WILL TAKE DECADES....IF EVER THEY REBOUND...........YD.
 
Huntin100 is right. The effect wolves have on elk goes way beyond what an individual animal is estimated to kill per year.

And remember, biologist/scientist are often wrong or worse - flat out dishonest.
 
You're correct Randy11. What was I thinking... There were NO new packs formed anywhere in any State...and wolves only stay in the state they were born...and all biologists are 100% unbiased...wolve counts are as accurate as a DNA test...REALLY?

I hunted a NEW pack of wolves in ID that was YES "a new pack." They were in the wrong place. In fact they were traveling into MT and back into ID. If you think just because MT stayed "about" the same that there aren't any New packs being formed, well you are simply miss-informed. Read the findings about wolves posted above and become more informed.

HK
 
> WAIT TILL
>SOME OF THESE GUYS THAT
>ARE SOFT ON WOLVES, CANT
>DRAW A TAG, CANT FIND
>ANIMALS IN THEIR HONEY HOLES.....IT
>WILL BE TOO LATE.
>KINDA LIKE THE OUTFITTERS THAT
>HAVE BEEN WOLFED OUT OF
>BUSINESS THUS FAR.
> A ELK/ MOOSE REBOUND
>WILL TAKE DECADES....IF EVER THEY
>REBOUND...........YD.

I'm assuming I'm one of the guys this is directed at.
I can't guarantee, but I'm willing to bet my elk area has been hit harder (or as hard) by wolves than any other poster here. The drainage I hunt has three established packs and the elk numbers are 20% of what they were 7-8 years ago. I have a pretty good handle on what kind of 'decimation' the wolves can cause.

Here's a picture I took on an old logging road in the middle of my elk spot.
3549wolf_spot.jpg


Yeah, it's frustrating to me because I love hunting elk.

You know what though? I still got my bull this year, the mule deer numbers are going up with the reduced elk numbers, the wolf population has leveled off the last few years, and quite frankly I'm pretty excited about having another tag in my pocket to fill.

My family and I could have filled near all our wolf tags last year too, had it not been for the low quota shutting down the season early.

Aside from Wyoming's problem, I really just don't see a reason to be worried. There are still a ton of elk out there, and a leveled off population of wolves isn't going to drastically change that. Sure, they'll hit some areas pretty hard at times, but game populations are cyclical, numbers will go up and down. We're hunters, we can adjust.

And so what if the pro-wolf groups want 5000 or whatever wolves, the USFWS and state agencies don't, and they're the ones that make the call. As long as we adhere to the ESA, and keep the numbers over that minimum, and Wyoming finally figures out what they're doing, we have control of the management. MTFWP is setting the quota at 40-50% of the total wolf population for this upcoming season. They're on our side guys, and for once seem to be handling something really well, let them do their job.

In my opinion, we've seen the worst of the wolf battle, we're over the hump and things have swung in our favor. We've won this fight guys, now lets work on much bigger problems, like Montana's embarrassment of an Elk Management Plan.

This is what kills me about RMEF and SFW diving so head first into this whole thing, it's a horrible waste of resources.
 
>You're correct Randy11. What was
>I thinking... There were
>NO new packs formed anywhere
>in any State...and wolves only
>stay in the state they
>were born...and all biologists are
>100% unbiased...wolve counts are as
>accurate as a DNA test...REALLY?
>
>
>I hunted a NEW pack of
>wolves in ID that was
>YES "a new pack."
>They were in the wrong
>place. In fact they were
>traveling into MT and back
>into ID. If you
>think just because MT stayed
>"about" the same that there
>aren't any New packs being
>formed, well you are simply
>miss-informed. Read the findings
>about wolves posted above and
>become more informed.
>
>HK


Sorry, didn't mean to come off like I did. I said above, I was speaking in terms of MT mainly. Looking back I butchered that, because even with a level number of wolves, packs do interchange and subdivide and what not. My mistake.

My point was that the wolf numbers are leveling off, therefore the predation numbers should be too.

And yeah, I trust biologists. I know quite a few and if there's an person among the state agencies you can trust, it's the biologists. Their opinions and suggestions often aren't heard or carried out, but not that's not their fault.

And I know all about wolves crossing back and forth over state lines, I watched a pack on the border all summer, and could have smoked one in the Idaho side the first week of September had I had a tag. Two buddies of mine went over in February and filled their tags after a couple days of hunting, out of the same pack. The quota was never met in that area, for what it's worth.
 
randy randy randy wolf populations are not leveling out. they have no predators and they lose very few pups. next idaho and mt had a span of years where they were not able to fund counting wolves so the numbers are drastically off. plus in idaho ranchers have the right to shoot wolves and the idfg do not report that and its a higher number then the hunt and kill orders combined, and there numbers still grow. another thing you need to read MSU's wolf study you will learn alot they did a very extensive study and the results are very alarming. if you think 20% of your elk heard is ok then you don't like good hunting, ie mature bulls are very few when a heard gets hit that hard. also if you think the people making decisions about wolf quotas are on our side and that there hands aren't tied from political influence your crazy, especially in mt. once again you pro wolf guys are hard to get through to and don't like reading the numbers of where the wolves have inhabited, go back and look its not good. but if you don;t mind 20% of the heard remaining you won't care.
 
hey how old are you randy? i was just looking at the mt forum and saw your bull, and its your only bull. i am not bagging on you but how long have you hunted elk there and how good is the hunting if you've only killed one? i am also from mt
 
That was my first bull. I'm 22. Same age as you right?

Not really sure how that does anything but prove my point if anything though?
I must not be much of a hunter if I've never killed a bull before that, so therefore it's amazing an inexperienced hunter like myself could kill a bull in the area hit hardest by wolves in the state. A good hunter would probably kill a 330 with no problem. But wait, there can't be any 330 bulls in an area with wolves, ie mature bulls.

I guess this set I picked up a couple weeks ago were planted from Colorado, no way they could have been found less than a mile from where I took the wolf track pictures above. And when I shot over his back last season, must've been a moose I had mistaken.
2350hyt556.jpg


I've read the MSU study. And it really does suck that we have to compete with wolves for elk, they can have a huge impact in some areas. I know this first hand. The thing is though, no matter what happens, we CAN NOT get rid of them. It's not possible. We HAVE to learn to live with them, we don't have an option.

I was 8 when USFWS was taking public comment on whether or not to reintroduce wolves. Frankly, I'm bitter that the generation ahead of me didn't do enough at the time to get it stopped. As Buzz points out, hunters really didn't do squat about it. It sucks that I was just starting to hunt during the golden years of MT elk hunting. I missed out.

You guys are refusing to see where guys like me and Buzz are coming from. We are not 'pro-wolf', we're VERY pro elk. We're just looking at the situation a little differently.

I'm really not trying to get in a pissing match here, I'm just hoping to show that there is another angle to look at this from.

I'm gonna go kill a bear now, do what I can to save a few calves this spring.
 
the fact you killed a raghead bull and the fact you found sheds mean nothing bud. there are some big bulls still, thee are some big bulls in yellowstone to, big deal. they are just not as many, which the key. i am older than you by quite a bit, which doesn't mean anything either, what you need to understand is that if we keep shooting 75 wolves a year or even double that they will devastate the elk populations, we need to fight to get them on a more generous quota or no quota. we are obviously not getting rid of wolves everyone knows that, wolves are big coyotes, and we hunt the hell out of coyotes and barely keep there numbers in check, and wolves are harder to kill. they will do just fine on the program. if you have read the MSU study and that doesn't hit you in the mouth your choosing not to beleive what you read as buzz does, you choose what you want to beleive, everyone see's your guys' points but your points are not the number one problem right now. if you read in the general hunting forum we now have a stud appointed and paid to head up the fight on wolves so the fight is getting better. maybe you and buzz can go to d.c. together and do what you guys feel is important.
 
Randy11,
Do wolves have a severe impact on Elk numbers??? The answere is YES! You said it yourself. Did you read the opening thread???? Buzzh has tried to say that the majority of the issues with elk numders dropping is do to the Hunters. If we base your success rate as our guide. You have probably been hunting for 10 years and have only killed one bull, how many elk do wolves kill a year????? Yes, I agree MT could do a better job at managing there elk but the fact still remains the same that if you want a good solid elk heard, CONTROL the wolves. You might want to look further into your buddy BUZZH comments because it doesnt sound like you are as liberal as he is.
 
When a wolf kills one elk that leaves one less for a hunter to take. A proper game management plan has to take that into account to keep the numbers up. If you have 1,000 wolves in Idaho that means the harvest has to be reduced by about 25,000 elk. I'm not willing to give that many to the wolves and reduce the take by hunters by 90% in order to keep our numbers healthy. It's just that simple! Hopefully SFW and other groups can fight for us to get the accepted number in Idaho down to under 200, if we can even hunt them to that level. Alot of the wolf harvests were coincidental, meaning hunters were hunting elk or deer and seen a wolf and killed it. Take hunters from the mountains, because of reduced elk and deer opportunities and watch the wolf population explode then.
 
"Either way, throwing around a number like 25-80 is just crazy."

Why is it crazy? Because you watched "Never Cry Wolf" and you thought that wolves only eat Lemmings?

You turn a pack of wolves out on a herd of elk that have never been around wolves and I bet that number is low. As the elk wise up and/or get depleted that number will go down, sure.

When somebody like YukonDall says that wolves are wiping out the moose and elk in parts of Wyoming, I beleive him over some jerk water government paid biologist with an agenda.
 
I dunno guys, I guess I'll just agree to disagree with you then. We really are agreeing on a lot, I'm just more optimistic I guess. It's just that I can live with wolf levels in MT between 350-400 wolves. I'm comfortable with that number, if someone can get it lower, great, I just don't see a difference one way or the other making that big of an impact. Especially with the bigger problems we have concerning our elk numbers. If you older guys want no wolves at all, did you comment in 1994-1995???

Sorry Tufcntry, I was thinking you were a guy from Dillon my age that I'd talked to before, I must have you confused with someone else. Honest mistake.

eelgrass, is yukondall the guy in the article you linked to?
If so, where'd you get the numbers Yukondall? I'm honestly curious, as a quick search online found a dozen or so articles with the roughly twenty number, from lots of different sources.
 
Randy

The origional agreement was 100 wolves in each state. That is 300 wolves. I dont mind even 3 times the origional agreement 300 wolves in ID,WY, and MT.

Why do we have to have 1,800 wolves in the 3 states?

Why did these wolf loving groups say they want 5-6,000 wolves now?

Why do sportmen have to pay for wolf management?

IF ID sold more than 26,000 permits and after a long season could not reach their Kill quota of 220 wolves, whats going to happen to wolf population, elk, and moose populations?

Who said MT will keep wolf populations at 400? The wolf populations are growing.


When you asked if sportsmen commented back in 1994, remember the agreement was 300 wolves. Who lied about the numbers? If we just had 300-400 wolves combined, we wouldn't have the problems. You CAN NOT trust these pro wolf groups.

I hope you can see this.
 
>Randy
>
>The origional agreement was 100 wolves
>in each state. That
>is 300 wolves. I
>dont mind even 3 times
>the origional agreement 300 wolves
>in ID,WY, and MT.
>
>Why do we have to have
>1,800 wolves in the 3
>states?
>
>Why did these wolf loving groups
>say they want 5-6,000 wolves
>now?
>
>Why do sportmen have to pay
>for wolf management?
>
>IF ID sold more than 26,000
>permits and after a long
>season could not reach their
>Kill quota of 220 wolves,
>whats going to happen to
>wolf population, elk, and moose
>populations?
>
>Who said MT will keep wolf
>populations at 400? The
>wolf populations are growing.
>
>
>When you asked if sportsmen commented
>back in 1994, remember the
>agreement was 300 wolves.
>Who lied about the numbers?
> If we just had
>300-400 wolves combined, we wouldn't
>have the problems. You
>CAN NOT trust these pro
>wolf groups.
>
>I hope you can see this.
>

I'm not saying I trust the pro-wolf groups. I'm saying I trust Fish and Game to manage the wolves, which they are now doing. Last year over 200 wolves were killed in MT. The population leveled off at only a 4% increase. In MT there was only 16 more wolves at the end of 2009 as their was at the beginning. That is leveling off. Keep in mind, this was with the only 75 wolf quota. Fish and game is proposing almost a three times higher quota this year.

The original agreement was that once a MINIMUM of 300 wolves was reached, they would be eligible to be removed. No where in the report does it say that is the target number, strictly the minimum. Look it up man, it's clear as day what that 300 number was meant as.

I'm not worried about what numbers the pro-wolf groups want, I'm worried about what the Fish and Game agencies want. And so far they've shown that they want to decrease the wolf numbers, and are willing to do what ever they need to get this done. This is my entire point, the good guys have control now, things are swinging in our favor.
 
Randy11 or should i say BUZZ,
"I'm not worried about what numbers the pro-wolf groups want, I'm worried about what the Fish and Game agencies want. And so far they've shown that they want to decrease the wolf numbers, and are willing to do what ever they need to get this done. This is my entire point, the good guys have control now, things are swinging in our favor"

I find it a little contradicting that when it comes to the wolves you have all the confidence in the world with the FWP, but when it comes to their piss poor managing of hunting permits you guys blame it on DEBBIE BARETT and all the other politicians. You dont understand what runs the goverment??? its $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ if they can keep overloading us with cow permits and wolf permits that is exactly what they will do. Just think about the revenue this industry brings in! Wolves are a huge issue and that is exactly what we are trying to say. And because of guys like you and Buzz who think all is well while uncle SAM is in control, that try to distract people from the real issue. O wait I have an idea, maybe the FWP will put a quota on how many elk a wolf can kill a year!!!! That makes just about as much cense as your thoughts.
 
remember randy there are atleast 1800 wolves. the key word being ATLEAST, the FWP and IDFG have a very small grasp on the true mnumber of wolves. the govt trappers are lucky to get with in 1000 yards of the damn things. you think they have an exact count? you think the population only grew by an exact number of 16. thats hilarious, come on man, be real with yourself. we had some wolves come in to our truck and i called the wolf experts of the fwp over here and they said it wasn't true, because they didn't have any collars and they are in an area with no wolves. that statement alone tells me these guys don't have clue. i you are taking there word as gospel.
 

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