shoulder shooting elk with a bow

T

tufcntry

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ijust watched a hunting video and a guy just shot a bull right in the shoulder at 20 yards, the bull ran 40 yards and died. i asked my freind and he said, his buddy shot a bull 10 yards and it went through the shoulder and into the opposite shoulder, bull 20 yards away. my question is with todays bows shooting hunting arrows over 300 fps, can you ethically shoot a bull in the shoulder 20 yards or closer with a fixed blade broadhead, with confidence in the fact it will penetrate and kill the bull?
 
You might be able to do it a few times and get through the scapula edge maybe, but eventually you will hit the elbow, or center the bone and it will stop the arrow. Not worth the risk. The answer to your question is no.
 
Not sure why you'd want to... It's not going to shatter it like a bullet would... I'd prefer a complete pass through with wide wound channels for easy trailing.

Workman Predator Calls Field Staff
 
>You might be able to do
>it a few times and
>get through the scapula edge
>maybe, but eventually you will
>hit the elbow, or center
>the bone and it will
>stop the arrow. Not
>worth the risk. The
>answer to your question is
>no.

this! end of disscussion! IMO.
 
i would never shoot it on purpose i am saying is it possible, if that was the only shot is there any confidence. these new bows are prerry unreal and there penetration ability is amazing, just wondering if anyone had, would, or is it possible.
 
Most people don't understand the anatomy of the critters they hunt. Many think the leg bone goes straight up and you should shoot behind the front shoulder. Wrong!

The most deadly and fastest killing shot with a bow should be shot straight up the front leg and little below half way up bodywise. You most generally will watch the bull go down.

There has been several discussions recently and through the years on Bowsite.com. A search on proper shot placement would bring those up. They are very infromative.

Here's a photo I posted on that discussion that show the make up of the front leg and how it all goes together on a live critter. The > you see above the bulls front leg is the area one should be trying to hit. Not only will it kill an animal faster, but you are much less likely to hit the guts with that shot should you shoot back a few inches.

Have a good one. BB

8044elk_with_shoulder_blade_and_vitals_edited-1.jpg
 
i think buglinbilly is right i think most people probably assume that shooting above the elbow like that was bone when they were really punching our the heart. shooting an elk in the scapula is pointless.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-10 AT 02:39PM (MST)[p]This is a better example and easier for people to see and understand.

The first photo is of an antelope I shot in 2008. I did this specifically for educational purposes and a way to show those that don't understand the make up of antelope, elk, deer, moose etc. (A bear) is different but most big game we hunt is built like this.

The photo below shows the vital area in relation to the front leg bone structure. If you look close you can see the leg bones, the scapula, the lungs and heart immediately behind the leg and the liver behind the lungs.
5341antelope_bone_and_vital_area_1.jpg


In the photo following this paragraph you will see I have drawn a black vertical line at the crease, or at the place most people call (just behind the shoulder). In front of the black line I have drawn a green line thatshows the area of vitals ahead of the line and the area you have to hit without hitting bone. Behind the black line you will see I have drawn a blue line that shows the size of the area you have before you are in the guts.
9738antelope_vitals_overlay_best_hit_up_front.jpg


Keep in mind the area in front of the black line will kill a critter many times faster and in a much shorter distance than will a hit behind the black line in most cases. You not only will kill a critter fsster you will also find you loose far less animals.

Now here's how that all looks when over laid on an antelope.
The colors are switched from front to back on this example, vs the ones above, but the principle is the same on deer, elk and moose.
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos/78431_antelope_with_vitals_showing!_copy_2.jpg

Here's what a moose looks like for example. Now imagine the bone structure as being the same with elk deer and moose as it is with antelope, just bigger basically.
6528bull-moose-vital-over-lay-p.jpg


The vitals and guts that I over laid on a moose photo are the organs of a moose I killed in 2007. I have drawn a dounut on that moose and the center of that donut I have marked with a blue dot. That dot is where I hit my moose and watched it go down in a matter of a few sceconds and in a very short distance.
9166bull-moose-vital-over-lay-p_sweew5_wspot.jpg


Keep your shots forward and you will kill more critters and loose less.



Have a good one. BB

PS Learn the anatomy of the critters you hunt!
 
I've been saving your pics to my puter for a cpl years now Bill, really appreciate it.

Good luck to you and DonV this year.
 
now thats what we're talking about just look for the deer, elk, cow, moose, bear or what ever that has his hide pulle back and shoot him in the green spot.
supper job BB
No, i realy mean it supper job alot of people don't realy understand the anatomy of critters.
like hte moose just a shade above your green spot is the spine.
its not up in the hump like would many think.
 
Very nice post. Hope you don't mind but I have copy and pasted the post into a pdf doc. I am going to use it in my Hunter Ed classes that I teach.

Thanks. And again Great post.

DeadI/Jared
46e8aeb1660028c5.gif
 
Great post and great pictures.

I think it needs to be pointed out, that the picture of the disected animal does not show the true relations of the organs of the cavities on either side of the diaphram. The stomach and guts are obviously inflated and begining to swell, where as the lungs are colapsed. The space occupied by the lungs/heart is a bit larger and extends farther posterior than what is represented in the picture. When the lung cavity is opened and the diaphram is cut, the guts collapse inward or forward.

I agree that we need to keep our shots forward, but the picture is misleading. When talking about archery, IMO, it is better to keep your shots tight BEHIND the shoulder. I have seen far more animals lost because they were hit too far forward, than too far back. In archery, penetration and cutting is the key. The shoulder is no mans land when I am flinging sticks.
 
Great Post!! I have forward this to all of my family and hunting buddies. Even if you are on top of the animal?s anatomy a refresher is always good!

<------<< I love it when the plan comes together.
 
The photos posted represent pretty closely the real anatomy and placement of the organs. The spacing is as close to real as I could do it. The lungs when inflated do take up a slightly larger area no doubt, but other than that things are pretty much as they are on a live critter.

"I agree that we need to keep our shots forward, but the picture is misleading. When talking about archery, IMO, it is better to keep your shots tight BEHIND the shoulder. I have seen far more animals lost because they were hit too far forward, than too far back. In archery, penetration and cutting is the key. The shoulder is no mans land when I am flinging sticks."

Mr. Carbonnation your statement sounds like double talk to me and could not be farther from the truth!

I would venture to say more animals are lost with a bow and a rifle to gut shot wounds than to all other wounds put together.

How can you say you believe you have to keep your shots forward, but then turn around and say to keep your shot tight behind the shoulder. If you truly mean the leg bones, then I agree with you, but I don't really believe that is what you mean.

If one studies the anatomy of an elk (or deer, moose, antelope, etc) he will learn in fast order that shooting straight up the middle to straight up the front leg is a far better shot with a bow than shooting it behind the crease.

If you are above the bottom of the < and below the back bone and behind the scapula and straight up the front or middle of the leg, you are hitting the most vital area on the animal with a bow. Death happens so fast it will astound you.

Again there is not a better hit with a bow than that area. Another consideration is if an animal moves upon release of the arrow he is going to move down and forward. That means a shot behind the "shoulder" very likely will end up in the guts.

Study these photos and keep your shots forward and you end up killing more and wounding less!

Have a good one. BB
 
I've shot 2 elk in the shoulder. One ran off with 28+'s of arrow sticking outta it. The other hit the round bone, glanced back cuttin the outside of the ribs. I glassed this one at 100 yards and thought I had a great hit based on the blood immediately behind the leg. Then I recovered my arrow and only the broadhead and one side of the shaft had blood on it. Lost blood within 300 yards.

I do have clarify that this was 15+ years ago and equipment has improved BUT I will avoid that shoulder on a dead broadside everytime. Slightly quartering away is better IMO.
 
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Yes sir, I am with Bugling Billy, he is the man when it comes to photos & shot placement on critters, guys would be wise to listen to him!

I too have accidentally killed elk with Muzzy 3-blade 125 grn heads when hit in scapula plate! It's certainly not a desired or sought after placement if you like eating elk meat, but sometimes we get lucky! (grin) You will find that most shoulder/scapula hits with arrows are denied. Too, hit above petition wall of plate & you are over the lungs & if lucky enough to penetrate it up that high you are now at the mercy of the broadhead to find it's way down towards the lungs as animal runs off!

2ndly, it takes a very squared animal to get ultimate penetration as to alleviate any ricocheting effects on shoulder plate hits.

Without a doubt more animals are gutshot or hit out of the area an elk lives & breathes than scapula hits with arrows!

ElkNut1
 
BB

I agree that more animals are lost to gut shot than to shoulder shot, but speaking from my own experience, more of these animals are lost to impatients or poor tracking on the part of the hunter. If I screw up and hit an animal too far back with an arrow, I know that all I have to do is give it time, and I have no doubt that I will find it. A sharp broadhead that gets good penetration will do its job.

However, if that same sharp head gets too far forward and does not get penetration, I have had very little success of finding those animals. I am not doubting that a well placed shot in the area you are discribing is extremely deadly, but lets be honest, in the real world all shots are not well placed. Even with all of the practicing we do, in the heat of the moment and in the unpredictable outdoors, bad shots happen. An archer has to give themselves so fudge factor in both directions.

My point was just to say that there is more exposed vitals behind the crease than the pictures indicate. Im not saying that you should aim for the flank, just that a shot placed behind the crease will take out the lungs. I have hit more than one animal close to or behind the line drawn on the disected animal and I still take out the lungs. You obviously know what you are talking about, and I wouldn't questions your shot placement, but when I am behind the bow I feel more comfortable sending my arrow tight behind the crease.
 
You guys are awesome! This is the most educational post I have ever seen. Thanks for taking the time to make the diagrams.
 
Study these photos close and learn how the bones make up the front shoulder. Realize the better area in which to aim. The crease is not the area to aim, on a broadside shot with a bow, if you want the best results.

As a side note, if one hits the major bones, even with today?s equipment, it is very likely they will not push through those large bones and kill the animal. It happens on rare occasions, but it is very unlikely. A broadhead in the scapula or in the major leg bones of an elk will allow the elk to live and recover completely in most cases. An arrow in the guts, is a slow agonizing death, to the animal and once jumped they are seldom recovered. So everyone who is shooting the crease, with a bow, would be much wiser to move forward and insure more kills and less lost critters.

We all need to remember that archery should be a close encounter in which we limit our shots to close range. If you do that you are doing animals and bowhunting a big favor, because you are greatly reducing the chance of a bad hit and/or a non-recovery

Below is a good example to which I speak. In 2006 I was antelope hunting with my son. As some of you know, I love to take photos as much as I do shoot critters with my bow. So when the antelope came in, that he wanted, I began taking still photos with my camera. When my son pulled back on the buck antelope, I waited until the instance he shot and I triggered the shutter. The first photo shows the exact moment his arrow hit the buck. You will notice in the photo, if you look close, the antelope has dropped down and moved forward and you can see that action (even in a still photo) in the body and leg positions. Note the fletching of the arrow as it enters the antelope. That is the exact spot where he hit him from less than 20 yards. Also notice the green dot which is the approximate spot my son was aiming and where he wanted to hit when he released the his arrow. Notice also the violet colored spots. The lower one is where one would probably be aiming if they shot the crease and the other is where the arrow would approximately have hit had he aimed for the crease.

Also notice in the first photo on the lower left of the photo a kind of brown blur. That is the burlap corner of the shooting hole of he blind. In the second photo notice the short distance his buck made it. Again notice the burlap blur in the same area. The buck barley made it across the green, grassy ara which was behind him. Most good crease shots make it from 50 to 80 yards, but like I have noted the bad ones hit guts and unless everything is treated correctly, you have lost an animal that could have been down in seconds.

For those of you who understand all this, congratulations, but those of you who aren't shooting forward it time to make the move!

This is just some food for thought, but I can promise you that after 50 years of bowhunting I have learned some hard taught lessons as I had no one to help me. I just had to figure it out on my own. But once I began to understand how effective forward shooting is, I would never again aim for the crease unless the animal was quartering. But on broadside shots or nearly broadside shots I think you will be amazed, as was I, on how fast an arrow can kill a big animal.

Codyshitwithdots.jpg


Codysbuckdead.jpg



Have a good one. BB
 
Great post and pics guy's. Bill your pics are awesome as usual. I have shot my share of animals with a bow and since shooting forward of the crease, my blood trails are usually unnecessary as the animal drops in sight. I did also kill a bunch shooting for the crease too. Accuracy is essential in all hunting and this is no different. What I love about the forward shot is you typically hit all the artery's and blood vessels right above the heart. Major blood trail!! Good luck in all your hunts guy's!
 
Thanks for the details buglinbully. I have believed in this theory for a long time but never took the time to validate it like you have here. My brother lost two elk last year from shots that went too far back. I started telling him to shoot for the front shoulder to insure he would get a better hit.

I agree that the animal will probably live if you happen to hit one of those big bones. I just know we will find those two elk up there the next time we go into that area. Makes me sick that we didn't find them.

Personally I don't take risky shots. I want good clean kills. To me the story is more important than getting the animal. Tracking a gut shot animal is not in my game plan.

Thanks again, Hondo
 
most informative post I've ever seen I think... Thanks..!!! I saved it as a favorite to my computer.


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Here's another photo of an elk which shows its front leg bone structure, and a close approximation of how the vitals would look if the hide and ribs were cut back. The major organs showing in this example are labeled by color code.

The pericardium (heart sack) has been removed so you can see the heart. Immediately above the lungs and on the bottom of the back bone is the descending aorta (not shown in this illustration but can be seen in the moose photo in one of my earlier posts and appears kind of like a white rope, just above the lungs and under the moose's backbone).

Remember with an arrow to keep your shots close and shoot straight up the middle or the front of the front leg and will be amazed at the good things that happen.

4467elk_vitals_labeled_posting_size.jpg



Have a good one. BB
 
Here's another larger photo of my moose vitals with the labels. I posted this larger so you could better see it. Moose, elk, deer, and antelope are pretty much the same other than size. The previous photos I posted above show how these organs are arranged and placed in relation to the major bones structure of the front legs. This illustration shows the organs larger so you can see. It also shows the backbone and descending aorta and their relationship.

If you look close you can actually see the cut of my broadhead and also the trachea just before it branches into the lungs.

Vitalsonlylabled.jpg


Have a good one. BB
 
Nice pictures, thanks for the education. Very well thought out and I will be using this as a training aid throughout the summer as I am scouting!!
 
Here's an illustration of a moose with his vitals and the front leg bone make up. I have drawn a white line just at the crease, the area where most people aim BEHIND. Note the placement of the organs and note the purple area low and just behind the crease. Sadly that is a no/no area. If one hits there (on a broadside shot), they will be very fortunate to recover the animal, and yet to many they believe it's a great hit and then wonder what the heck happened! Has that happened to any of you?

Also in the photo I have place a round green dot that covers where the broadhead hit the moose. Another photo will show why I posted the green dot.

7681moose_vitals_and_lline_for_judgement.jpg


Here's a field photo of my moose and you can see in relation where my arrow entered the animal and I have also drawn a white line at the crease. Most people have been taught to shoot behind the crease. If you study these illustrations closely, hopefully you will begin to understand the importance of moving your aiming point forward.

7620p1130266_copy.jpg




Have a good one. BB
 

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