Southwest Montana public land hunting?

[muley7]

First time I will be hunting in Montana!! Any info. on public lands in the southwest part of the state would be great (how are the elk and deer populations in this part of the state)! Will be hunting both deer and elk. I am a resident of Colorado so If you need any info on Colo. just ask. Thanks and we will be hunting late from nov. 21-26. Muley7

 

[ismith]

muley7,
The elk populations are excellent, mule deer populations are really hurting and on the decline, whitetails are booming and expanding their range. There is decent public land access in S.W. Montana, just keep in mind that the weather may be an access factor late in the season when you will be hunting.
ismith

 

[TFinalshot]

hey ismith, you said mule deer are really hurting in SW, where are you getting your information and where, exately are you talking about the deer herds hurting? Not trying to start a fight or debunk you, I'm interested in where your getting your information. . .

Thanks,

 

[ismith]

TFinalshot,
First hand experience as well as some secondhand (other hunters). Also look at the 2003 population survey info on the MFWP website under plan a hunt. Let me explain why I say that muleys are really hurting.
1.) Booming elk population~ Elk are a secondary prey animal for mountain lions, this means that as the primary prey(mule deer) populations decrease, the lion population will shift to its secondary prey source enabling the lion population to remain stable or even increase. The primary food source(mule deer) are unable to recover.
2.) Competition with whitetailed deer~ I have personally seen whitetails at 9000 ft elevation as well whitetail/muley hybrids with mule deer doe groups.
3.) Wolves, as well as bear predation on fawns. Much lower survival rates for fawns.(Source- FWP winter range surveys)
4.) Hunters shooting the first forked horn buck they see. Alot of elk hunters blast the first forky they see for camp meat. Every buck I saw hanging in camps was a forky or young 3point. I definately believe its time to make most of S.W. Montana permit only for mule deer, much like N.W. Montana is starting this year.
ismith

 

[cauch]

ismith, where are you talking about? I live in the Bitterroot valley and the muley population isnt hurting at all. There were even a couple 200+ muleys pulled out in the southern part of the Valley. Im just curious where you are and where your hunting.

 

[ismith]

cauch,
Im talking about Madison and Beaverhead counties for the most part. Ill just say that the Bitterroot valley is a different story. If im not mistaken, the southern part of the Bitterroot valley is all permit only muley hunting?
ismith

 

[sheepeater]

Yeah Cauch you cant really compare the Bitteroot to the rest of SW Montana. Totally different management, totally different predator problems. SW montana deer herds in general are in tough shape. People need to start shooting more predators, quit shooting young bucks, knock the elk herds down, and the state needs to put a 4 point only rule in place for the entire state. Montana has the potential for some of the biggest bucks in the world but our management sucks.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/mtblackdog/hunterrunningfrombearlgclr5ju.gi

 

[cauch]

Yeah that is true. I agree with the state wide 4 point rule. Also making these areas with smaller muley populations a limited draw area with a size restriction would help alot.

 

[ismith]

Another thing that might help is reducing the antlerless mule deer permits. In some areas I just dont understand why they give out so many. The whitetail population is booming and everyone wants to shoot a muley, especially out of state hunters. I can understand why they want one, but Its my humble opinion that MFWP needs to get a handle on the situation and start managing for quality.(ie. permit only with antler restrictions) Im gunning for a big ol' whitetail buck this year as well as all the whitetail does I can get tags for.(Unless I draw a permit for the southern bitterroot valley)
ismith

 

[cauch]

Thats the other thing I dont understand. The Whitetails are spreading like rabbits and the out of state hunters would rather shoot a muley doe than a whitey. The last whitey I ate was alot better tasting than a old muley doe.

 

[sheepeater]

They used to have the four point rule, not sure why they ditched it, I remember seeing some lots of good bucks in the Gravs and Tabacco Roots when it was in place.

 

[TFinalshot]

ismith,

"1.) Booming elk population~ Elk are a secondary prey animal for mountain lions, this means that as the primary prey(mule deer) populations decrease, the lion population will shift to its secondary prey source enabling the lion population to remain stable or even increase. The primary food source(mule deer) are unable to recover.
2.) Competition with whitetailed deer~ I have personally seen whitetails at 9000 ft elevation as well whitetail/muley hybrids with mule deer doe groups.
3.) Wolves, as well as bear predation on fawns. Much lower survival rates for fawns.(Source- FWP winter range surveys)
4.) Hunters shooting the first forked horn buck they see. Alot of elk hunters blast the first forky they see for camp meat. Every buck I saw hanging in camps was a forky or young 3point."

I think your points are well taken, but isn't this really just a microcosm of the same issues for most areas?

 

[Bambistew]

Sheep I remember quite the opposite... Especially in the TR's, I used to spend 2-3 days a week up there in the fall. Cutting wood, hunting, etc.

I don't think antler point restrictions will do much to help... Not everyone is a ?trophy hunter? like us and wants to kill a big buck, some just like to hunt and take home a little meat, or just be successful at something. Killing a few small bucks doesn't hurt much IMO Limiting hunters will do the most good. They've tried point restrictions and IMO what they ended up with was a herd of dinks and monster 2 and 3 points running around. Plus a lot of shoot and check points later going on.

They need to go to a draw only system or at least go back to 'pick your unit' when you buy your deer tag OTC. IMO the pick your unit and draw only for those units in SW MT had a dramatic effect on the buck size and deer populations. For those 4-5 years that they had it the deer herds bounced back dramatically. Thr days of getting an OTC deer tag should be done away with for mule deer. Back in the day, people didn't travel much farther than 30 miles to hunt. In the areas where I hunt, of the 5-15 cars that will usually be at the trail heads, I'd just about put money on it that I'll be the only ?local? and probably one of three from less than 40 miles away. Getting a tag and having the whole state to hunt is BS and bad for the herds.

IMO they need to stop hunting mule deer state wide after three weeks of general season and let those rutting bucks do their thing. They're too visible and easy to pick off. From what I've seen in the units that they do it, it's working much better than any point restrictions have. I'm just as guilty of it as everyone else and I like to hunt them when their stupid, but I'd gladly stop doing it if it meant that we'd have more deer around. I'll hunt muleys a few days each year, but usually end up shooting a whitetail because I can't find a muley buck that that I'd be happy with. As a mater of fact I'll probably shoot at least 2 whitetail does in MT this year and probably a buck. Those fuggers have taken over and its tough to get a handle on the populations when land is leased up or no hunting is allowed. There are some areas that have whitetail deer populations in excess of 40-50 deer per square mile. I see it time and time again.

Most all those areas are 'posted' as well and the hand full of people that actually allow hunting still suffer, because for every deer taken of the hunted property, two from the posted take his place. My parents own about a 100 acres of pasture and hayfield and some times have over 100 deer on their place. They come there to feed at night. They kill a few of them, but its hard when they figure out that hunting season is on and they show up when it gets dark. And most of the crop damage is done well before the season starts.

I can't speak for any other areas than the area where I grew up, like ismith, Madison and Beaverhead counties. I will say this though, the mule deer populations in those counties are about half of what they were 12-15 years ago, maybe less. I can remember seeing hundreds of mule deer on wintering grounds, with quite a few mature bucks. My parents neighbors used to have about 250 muleys that lived on their place year round, now there is a handful, and hundreds of whitetail varmits!!!

I'm not really sure why they declined but they haven't rebounded that's a fact! I remember horn hunting the spring of 93 or 94 I think it was, and counted 10-20 deer carcasses a day.

Most of the areas that I know really well allow only limited mule deer hunting. They used to have deer herds in excess of 300-400+ head and would take a handful of bucks, and for years one ranch didn't allow any bucks! and few does, very little hunting pressure, so it wasn't because of all the forkys getting whacked... I

think I'd be hard pressed to find 100 deer wintering on those same ranches today. Lions are being pursued much harder these days, coyotes populations have declined due to all the wolves, and I really don't buy into the wolves killing off all the deer. There are a lot more bears around IMO, but I will agree with the previous post about the elk. There are so many damn elk around, most of which are on private unhunted land that its disgusting. There is easily twice as many elk today as there was 15-20 years ago!

 

[nochawk]

Well i for one like to come up there and hunt for whitetails, usualy in the Big Hole river area or over in the Bloody ##### river area, most of the whitetails are along the river bottoms and sometimes I can get permission to tresspass on the private property, sometimes not. I never seen any Big bucks, just nice basket size fellers with 12in spreads... but they are fun to chase.
most of the mulies are up on the hills but by staying low I dont see many mulies, either they are not there, or I have just been lucky and stayed out of them. I can hunt Mulies here in Ut so I leave the Montana mulies alone.

If anyone has a hotspot for Whitetails in SW PM me and I will help rid you of a few...

Nate

 

[ismith]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-06 AT 12:59PM (MST)[p]

"I think your points are well taken, but isn't this really just a microcosm of the same issues for most areas?"

TFinalshot,
Yes Its fair to say that it is a microcosm of the general situation out west, but In my opinion a more intense example. What It boils down to is mule deer are a more sensitive species than whitetails and elk and need more intense and deliberate management. I think perhaps the MFWP is starting to figure this out and hopefully they will do whats right for the muleys. Id really like to see them go to draw only for muleys at least in the western part of the state.
ismith
My Dads '05 whitetail, notice the double eyeguards

My girlfriends first deer

 

[TFinalshot]

If you go to draw only, don't you just kill off the healthy eastern Montana herds by allowing them to be overhunted? I mean, people are going to hunt and if you take away their hunting in western montana, they will go east. . .!

I'm for using a combination of hunting season changes, weapons restrictions, protected areas, habitat enhancement, and predator control, across the entire state, to get our herds up before I'll support more LE hunting. I think LE tags for western Montana would mark the death of our hunting heritage. I'll appose more LE hunting in western Montana, period. . .

 

[ismith]

TFinalshot,
I think the majority of the resident western montana hunters will just hunt whitetails. I dont think most people really even care which kind they shoot. I seriously doubt many more people will start hunting the eastern muleys due to gas prices and just the long trip over there. Just my 2 cents.
ismith

 

[TFinalshot]

points well taken, but the out of state guys WILL and more are coming!

The point is that we should not rush to shutting down our hunting in order to build a few permier hunting units. I think I'd rather hunt good deer for two weeks, and or with a bow or smoke pole than have to wait 5 or 10 years to draw a tag.

 

[ismith]

I think we both can agree that FWP needs to do something! I agree with you about shorting the seasons like they do west of Dupyer. They also give out a limited number of permits for folks that wanna shot at hunting the rut. So maybe a setup like that would be the answer. I do know that some of the HD's in N.W. Montana are closed to the taking of mule deer during the general season, with the exception of kids, and some are permit only now.
ismith

 

[Bambistew]

I'm against the LE thing too. I'd like to see them go to an ulimited tag but you have to pick your unit like they did 6-7 years ago and still do in unit 380. If that won't work, then shorten the season and take the rut out of the equation, especially with a rifle. A late muzzy hunt would be cool! I doubt it will happen though.

IMO eastern MT is a shell of what it used to be. Everyone and thier dog hunts out there as it is. I hunted out there two years ago after not being out there for a couple years... there were people all over the place. It was hard to belive it was the same eastern MT that I hunted all those years ago. I doubt I'll go back. I'd imagine that making the western part of the state a draw or limiting the hunting would increase the pressure out east, but I doubt it will that much, its already way more croweded than the western part of the state IMO.

NR are a very small portion of the hunters in MT anyway. Maybe 5-7% of the total??? Most are elk hunters first and deer hunters second. Most get to hunt for 7-10 days, where as residents have much more opportunity. IMO they really don't factor into the equation.

Last spring I spent the better part of three days glassing 25 miles of a single mountian range in SW MT. I counted over 4000 elk and was able to pick out roughly 75 deer... That was it. This same range 15 years ago would have netted easily 4-500 deer in that much time behind the spotter. It made me sick to my stomach to see that few deer around.

 

[mtmuley]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-06 AT 07:51PM (MST)[p]I happen to have grown up hunting Western Montana in a now very desireable hunting area. We have a great population of large mule deer bucks on public land. The reason that these bucks are here is our quota system for drawing tags. Just 10 years ago, a hunter couldn't find a good four point buck to save his ass. I'm talking 150 class. NOW, there are really good deer to be had. I fully support the limited tags available. In my opinion, in the two premier areas near me, there are too many tags alloted. And trust me, not every Western Montana mule deer hunter will flock out East if he doesn't draw a limited tag. There are many guys here in the West that have been going East for years. Even before the restrictions. Guys like me that truly love BIG muleys and the chance to hunt them, wouldn't even consider complaining about the limited tag allotments. The bucks are here because of them. And bambistew, I don't know where you hunt in the East, but it aint NEAR as crowded as the West. And yes I have hunted the East. mtmuley

 

[Dean Parisian]

I have written letters and complained long and loud.

The State of Montana needs to shut down hunting the mule deer rut. I lose too. All Montana mule deer hunters lose.

The resource wins.

What is so hard to figure out?

Tradition and lobbying die hard. Money runs the issue.

Dean Parisian
Chippewa Partners
http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com/

 

[mtmuley]

Hunting the rut DOES NOT NEED TO BE STOPPED. Mule deer buck tag quotas work very well. I choose not to disclose areas, but near my home, the quotas have been fabulously successful. There are tons of mule deer. In one area, 700 doe tags are alloted. And I know from personal experience, private land in my area holds many 190+ deer. The quotas work regardless of rut hunting or not. Period. mtmuley

 

[TFinalshot]

but are there any 265 non typicals like there used to be?

 

[ismith]

TFinalshot,
I dont know but the new state record was poached in 2004 up there in your neck of the woods. Scored 207 7/8.
ismith

 

[mtmuley]

You bet. Seems to be the mindset of people when they think of this area now. The 190 deer are here. The 200 deer are here. The hype and coverage is getting more frequent. That sucks. Good for Montana, bad for good old local boys looking for a meat buck. But, I like my meat bucks with 265 inches of horn. LOL Hey TF, I bet you know where I am talking about. mtmuley

 

[ismith]

I know where your talking about mtmuley. With a little luck ill be hunting there this fall.
ismith

 

[mtmuley]

All the luck to ya ismith. If you draw, let me know. I can be of help I think. mtmuley

 

[lifeisgood]

Montana is large enough, and diverse enough to accomidate both "quality" animal areas and areas where somone can fill their freezer with meat to feed the family for a a year.
I agree Montana has the potential to have more quality areas that grow Hogs like 270 does. I wish 270 tags had stayed at the 75 quota. I have never drawn one but IF I do, it will be (I think) the best chance I have had at collecting a 200" deer in a single season.
One BIG problem with growing some "older" bucks in open, and fairly limited draw areas, is most folk panic the last few days their muley tag is good and wack a 2 or 3 year old buck, (and consequentally, leave the antlers out in the yard for Fido the dog to chew on) instead of tagging a nice whitetail doe, or two, or three.
Cmon guys, REAL MEN arent afraid to shoot whitetail does. Its been over 10 years since I have harvested a mule deer buck and I hunt them 60+ days annually.
I am hoping one of the forkhorns, or 140 bucks, or 180 bucks I have let live will my 200" buck next year or the year after.
Lets keep after FWP to manage more areas similar to 270. Their is plenty of state here to do it, and plenty of state to grow meat.

 

[Bambistew]

>Hunting the rut DOES NOT NEED
>TO BE STOPPED. Mule deer
>buck tag quotas work very
>well. I choose not to
>disclose areas, but near my
>home, the quotas have been
>fabulously successful. There are tons
>of mule deer. In one
>area, 700 doe tags are
>alloted. And I know from
>personal experience, private land in
>my area holds many 190+
>deer. The quotas work regardless
>of rut hunting or not.
>Period. mtmuley

So what is the answer? Going state wide LE?

How many people used to hunt bucks in that unit before it was turned LE??? And how many people get to hunt it now? Why did they make it an LE unit again? You don't want to disclose what unit... LOL The whole world knows what unit it is, and I'd put money on it I will never draw a tag for it in the next 20 years either... with my luck, LOL. Is that what you want the state to become? A 5% or less chance of getting a tag for a good area? IF the way the seasons are set up are fine including rut hunting, then how is that there are very very few good deer killed every year, yet every state around us puts out great bucks and either doesn't hunt the rut or is on a limited draw during the rut??? Something just doesn't add up in my mind here.

Look at CO! Its getting harder and harder to get a tag there, sure there are 'meat' hunts available every year, but the areas with decent potential, i.e. 150"+ deer are taking longer and longer to draw tags for. Keep wishing for it and you'll soon be hunting good bucks once ever 3 years if we're lucky!

I don't want to see the state go LE, but would like to see them go back to the pick one unit and hunt it for the season! I think that worked great, and I really think that the half seasons are working well too! I agree that there is room for both quality and 'meat' hunts, but I think it would be easier/cheaper to manage if they shortened the season, or at least took it out of the rut and opened ealier if we're going to have state wide OTC tags. All you have to do is look at every unit in the state minus the handful of LE units to see that there is very little quality in the state. What their doing isn't working, as far as I'm concerned...

 

[ismith]

Bambistew,
I agree with you that we need to limit the rut hunts and pick a unit for muleys before hand. There really is no excuse to keep hammering the mule deer when we have such a large population of whitetails. On the other hand, maybe it wont hurt to have a few more LE type mule deer units.
ismith

 

[mtmuley]

bambistew, The whole world doesn't know what unit it is. Yet. Thanks to magazines and such it is only a matter of time. I don't really care as I don't apply for that tag. And, as I understand the LE process, the unit isn't one. It is a limited tag area. As far as good bucks coming out of Montana, where have you been? There were numerous bucks in the 190 to 200+ inch range taken just here in the Root. Including the new #3 Montana typical. My buddy and I both took mid 170 bucks in our area, although not monsters, good solid deer. The buck I was after, and have on video, is a solid 190 plus typical. This year???? 200? 2 years ago I hunted the Breaks for elk. My hunting bud took a high 170's buck on that trip. It wasn't the biggest buck we saw, but it was the one that made a mistake. The days of hunting mule deer bucks when and where you want in Montana are gone. F&G may not be doing a great job statewide, but here in the SW, there is nothing to complain about. I don't hunt muley bucks for the meat. That's what the doe tags are for. mtmuley

 

[Bambistew]

There are only a handful of Quota draws in MT for deer, and thousands of people apply for a 100 or so tags in each unit. You think there is a demand for better deer??? Its not hard to figure out what one(s) you're talking about. I really don't care, as I think Limited quota (aka zoo) hunts are for the 'challenged' anyway. All you have to do is look at the UT elk hunts and the people that post thier pictures. Just kidding guys...

I'm not sure you understand the point I'm trying to make and its quite obvious when you state that there are big bucks coming out of MT and then saying where they come from... Of course there are big bucks coming out of the 'root! ITS ALL ON A DRAW!!!! A couple units have a set quota, and the other three have an unlimited quota. But the fact of the mater is these units are limiting pressure plain and simple, thus growing bigger bucks! This is what I want to see state wide (Un limited quota and either hunt the whole season or half the season, I think it would take a trial period to see what works best, maybe a combination of both, I don't know) but IMO what they have now is not working.

BTW those unlimited areas in the 'root are only open half the season if I remember right. What about your area in the Breaks? Is it open all season long? A bunch of those units close early too. Do you think that might have anything to do with bigger deer coming out of MT?

Sure there as been a handful of bucks recently that are 'big' but its still pales in comparison to all the other states around us, and it has just been a recent thing. How many of those 'monster' bucks came off a general unit on public ground? One or two?

Argue all you want about it, but your Rooter world is not all of SW MT, and is actually quite the exception. There are also a couple other untis that are producing some great bucks as of late, which also happen to be on a draw.

I used to hunt about 6-7 different units during any given season. I'll tell you this, since the crash in the early 90's there are very, very few good bucks around. Before then a 160-170+" buck was a pretty good bench mark, not since though. The only units in SW MT that are producing decent bucks on public land year in and year now are on a draw, either limited or unlimited. Take a look at any unit that is OTC and open all season long, there are not any or very very few 170+ type deer in these units, that I've seen anyway. When the Whole SW part of the state was 'pick your unit' for a 3-4 year period, by the end of the program, I was starting to see some very nice bucks around, and if it would have lasted a few more years there would have been some hawgs running around, but they oppened it all back up and a bunch of those deer got shot off, that very first year and we'er back where we were. Dinks!

 

[BANNOCK1877]

A lot of interesting perspectives here, y'all are correct, something has to change. But that's the problem--- no one wants to change (big scary word).

MT won't even establish a ML only hunt, or change opening days from Sundays to mid week(to cut down on 1st day crowds)--- what makes you think the FWP will adopt even more revolutionary concepts like MORE deer draw units for something crazy like increased trophy quality?

Just look at the draw/ltd entry deer unit stats and TELL ME Montana hunters aren't scrambling over themselves to get in on a good thing.

Has anyone on this thread gotten a response/comment from the FWP on their long term strategy for deer herd management?

 

[mtmuley]

bambistew, Calm down man. First, thousands of people apply for a couple (2) of the limited areas. Not all of them. The Bitteroot is doing very well as quality of deer goes. And the unit producing the biggest bucks is huntable during the rut. Go figure. Picking one area to hunt won't do a damn thing if quotas aren't set. Besides, if you draw a SW area tag, you are limited to that area only anyway. Even the unlimited quota, season ending at the 15th areas around me have good deer. I took a 170 class buck in one of them 4 years ago. A friend took a 32" 5x5 in the same area. Quotas work, I don't give a damn where they are used. As you said, the success here may not be representative of ALL of SW Montana, but the management in place now is a vast improvement over years past. The unit I hunted in the Breaks is open season long except on the CMR. That closes mid NOV. I guess I don't understand your dislike of the draw only system. Quality animals get that way because of limited harvest. I'd rather have a shot at a tag for a good buck than the ability take a "dink" every year. mtmuley P.S. A majority of the BIG bucks in the South Root came off public ground. I know this for fact. One landowner with a large acreage took a 231" non- typical.