Utah's Deer Herds

P

Prism

Guest
Do you think that Utah's public land deer herds (and general deer hunts) are in worse or better shape than they were 10 years ago?

What do we have to show for the last 10 years?

Look forward to your thoughts.
 
I don't know about the rest of the state, but in the northern area with a few exceptions like cache county, I think they are holding there own, I'm seeing about the same number and about the same buck/doe ratio in the areas I hunt. On the winter range I see close to the same numbers every year for that last 5-6 years, as well as the last 3 generations of a certain genetic buck line.

I just got to get the old guy before Pleasedear or Founder get the old feller...LOL

Nate
 
I can hardly remember what I did last week... and you want me to think about ten years ago. lol I don't know that I could say better or worse but, I will say that it's bad and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. I really don't think that there is any one reason for the poor deer herds in Utah. Besides the lack of management(way too many tags, no preditor control, ect) the state is selling all the winter feeding grounds to housing developers. It's pretty clear when you go into Colorado, Wyoming, or Idaho that Utah is not doing something right. Maybe next year I'll get that limited entry tag and not have to shoot a two point on the last day. LOL
 
LAND OF THE NOMAD BUCK IS IN TROUBLE AGAIN!!!

I'VE SPENT WHO KNOWS HOW MUCH TIME & MONEY WATCHING THE MONSTEROUS HERD IN THIS REGION!!!

THE DEER WERE COMMING BACK A LITTLE AROUND 92,BUT ALL THE PRESSURE FROM COW-KILLER HUNTS & A SEVERE STORM WIPED ALOT OF DEER OUT IN THIS REGION!!!

BY 2000 THE HERD HAD COME BACK JUST A LITTLE BUT THE DEER WERE LOW AT RIFLE SEASON & WHAT TOOK 6-7 YEARS WAS WIPED OUT IN ONE SEASON!!!

BY 04 THEY HAD RECOVERED JUST A LITTLE & WERE SMACKED HARD,NEARLY EVERY DECENT BUCK IN THE REGION WAS SHOT,A STORM MOVED THEM INTO LOWER TERRITORY & THEY WERE HIT HARD AGAIN!!!

I SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS ON THE WINTER RANGE & I'M TELLING YOU WE ARE IN TROUBLE IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING DECENT!!!

IF YOU DON'T SEE THEM IN NOVEMBER,DECEMBER & JANUARY THEY AIN'T THERE,KNOW WHAT I MEAN???

I CAN ASSURE YOU THE LATE COW-KILLER HUNTS DID NOT HELP A DAMN THING IN THIS COUNTRY!!!

THE ONLY bobcat SEEING ONLY A SLOWLY DIMINISHING HERD!!!
 
Why do you have to shoot a two point on the last day? I realize you might have been kidding but if you weren't.
Eat tag soup!
As much as I hate saying this because of the hunting pressure this unit already gets. I have been hunting the Wasatch front for 10 years and it has only gotten better. I have never seen a two point shot in this area. Ten years ago I rarely saw a four point. Now every year I hunt good quality bucks. Now the DWR might try to f with this unit. They say it was never meant to be a trophy hunt. Well it is! WE NEED TO PROTECT IT. If you see anybody hunting to close to houses TURN THEM IN!
Riffle hunters if you want quality hunting pass on those younger deer and Fight to get your tags back from the special interest groups. Do you realize that these groups are not really doing anything for us? Look up their numbers follow the money. These groups are taking 6000 tags of limited hunting opportunity in 10 years. I bet I would have drawn a tag if they didnt have their greedy hands on them. Also we used to have a 5 dollar habitat fee that could only get used for habitat. Some how it got turned back into our license fee where it will never get used for habitat. Utah needs to only use hunting and fishing license money for better hunting and fishing.
If I sound harsh it is because I will probably not be able to hunt elk until I draw a deer tag with max points and then take max points to draw an elk. By this time I will be 60 years old. These should not be a once in a lifetime hunt.
 
The herd in central region took a huge hit in the early 90's and certainly has gotten better as far as numbers and quality of bucks go. For whatever reason (predators, development) the herds just don't seem to really take off? Are they better this year than 10 years ago, where I hunt yes, but it certainly isn't a management issue, it is part of the cycle. I'm all for making smaller units like colorado.

T
 
If hunting is worse than it was 10 years ago, I've signifcantly improved as a hunter.
 
I agree with you tooele. I think going to smaller units could help. And yes swbuckmaster, I was only kidding about shooting a two point. I'd rather let the fork horn go so I can shoot him another day.
 
I think you'd have to go farther back than 10 years to find a good deer population in the west desert area I've hunted. I think the deer have been struggling and trying to rebound since 92-93. There was a good die-off that winter and not the normal 3-5 year herd recovery to formal levels. Jeez, I guess all the browse must have died that winter also to have changed the habitat so quickly that the deer couldn't rebound?
The late 80's were great.



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Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.
 
Prism,

Here is my observation. I think the herds are better. Not a lot better, but better. The problem is no year over year improvement.

Since the hard winter of the early 90's I think it improved some then it has become a little stagnant. I think quality has improved since the days of 250k hunters.

The biggest problem I see is the amount of people who still hunt because they think it is their god given right when they fail to draw. Don't be fooled, the number is quite high.

I wonder if things will take a jump forward? Or, is maintaining the status quo where the efforts are?
 
Without a doubt. WORSE. I agree with most people on here. The number of big bucks in dwindling. I was talking with one of the fish and wildlife workers in Logan canyon during the deer hunt. As of the opening weekend, they had checked out 6 bucks. Thats it, in two days...... Nothing big either. There needs to be smaller units, less tags for a while. The wintering range of the deer herds is dwindling every day. Houses are going up all over the northern region. You have a better chance of getting buck with your car than actually finding one on the mountain. Eat your tags. I cannot see the benefit of everyone slamming a two point every year. If you're in it for the meat, consider a doe tag. Now a first time hunter, I can see where a two point is not big deal. Sometimes eating your tag will be filled out two years later with a nice mature buck........ Just something to think about
 
My $.02's is that the deer herds have held there own or somewhat better since the number of permits were restricted, more than 10 years ago. With a few exceptions, we have not had a bad winter in the last 10 years, and should be doing much better. My feeling is that there are more predators than 10 years ago. I have no proof, but I suspect there is more poaching, or shooting deer out of season in the remote areas than we are aware of. Some of the locals in the south have joked for years that the hunting season is "everyone else's season".
 
N.Utah, worse IMO. Much less public land, over hunting, and a few bad winters.

I don't know about others but I think there is far less deer this year (N.Utah) than there was last year. Maybe I am wrong????

Mule deer are just not as big as priority as elk in Utah.
 
Well here's my take.

I get to travel around the state quite a bit and talk to hunters from Tremonton to St. George on occasion.

I think the deer herds in certain areas were making a small come back prior to the 2004 season. I'll attribute the comeback to the lack of any winterkill to speak of since the 92/93 winterkill and little else.

The early and heavy snow storms of 2004 were great for hunting and terrible for the deer. Utah's macromanagement approach to deer lead to the overharvesting of what little comeback Utah was experiencing as large numbers of hunters were allowed to hunt concentrated deer. A scenario that could of been avoided had Utah managed smaller units or closed the hunt early.

In my little world of overhunted areas East of Heber City, Currant Creek, Tabi Mtn, etc. I honeslty believe the deer herd is in worse shape now than it was right after the 92/93 winter. I'll attribute this 99.9999% to overhunting by human predators due to the Utah DWRs lack of balls brains or both.

The lack of many mature bucks around Heber City this past winter is a sad thing to see.

The mismanagement of our deer herds drives me crazy.:(
 
ONE MORE THING!!!

THERE WERE A FEW AREAS THAT GOT SO BAD THEY HAD TO BE CLOSED!!!

THE BOOK CLIFFS WERE ONE OF THE AREAS!!!

WHEN THEY (UDWR) CLOSED THE BOOK CLIFFS,SEVERAL THOUSAND HUNTERS WENT ELSEWHERE!!!

ALOT OF OTHER AREAS WERE SMACKED HARD!!!

THEY DIDN'T REDUCE THE 97,000 PERMITS!!!

HUNTERS JUST MOVED CAMP & SLAMMED OTHER AREAS!!!

NOW TELL ME???

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE!!!

I'M WITH Prism,HUMANS ARE THE WORST PREDATOR THERE IS WHEN TURNED LOSE!!!

NOW EVEN Prism IS IN A BAD MOOD!!!

THE ONLY bobcat HUNTING IN THE LAND OF THE NOMAD BUCK!!!
 
I agree with the comments on bucks, both big and small. But what about the herd size itself? This is where I see large herd size reductions and with that goes the ability to reporoduce more deer at a faster rate. Bucks are 10% to maybe 35% of the herd makeup. For the most part hunters kill only bucks, so what has happened to the rest of the herd, the does. They are greatly reduced also. In the winter months one doe equals the two fawns she is carrying. Hmmm, what kills most of the does? And the fawns? What might contribute to the death of the fawns?

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Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.
 
Prism,

I know that there are still a lot of good bucks in the North Eastern unit, I am not saying that the snow of 04' season didn't effect it but I don't think it was to terrible. Last year was a great year for me I saw many bucks over 165 on all three hunts.

I think that it is better now in the North East, at least for my group we are averaging at least one buck a year over 160, including a 200" typical in 04' and a 160" and 165" inch in 05'. And that doesn't even count the 180" buck I missed with a muzzeloader, I should stick to archery I can't hit anything with a gun.
 
ARROWHNTR,
I would consider myself lucky if I was you, here in the Northern region a 4 point, no matter how many points he scores, is a monster. Every buck, no matter if its a spike or anything, gets shot.... There are way too many tags for the land avaliable and the number of deer. So if I was you, I wouldn't talk too much about your success, or you're going to have thousands or Northern hunters migrating that way... hahhaa, how about posting some pictures of your bucks?
 
Prism, I couldn't agree with you more. I have been preaching micromangement for years but I fear that it falls on deaf ears. The DWR needs to look at CO and other States to see the positive results of micromanagement. In fact the Dwr doesn't even need to look out of the window of their own state to see the benifits of micromanagement. Just look at the Paunsaugunt, Heneries, Vernon, Oak creek, Book cliffs. They are managing specific herds of deer on specific mountain ranges and they are getting fantastic results. The DWR would have us believe that habitat and predators are the main cause of the decline of Mule Deer in the State when in fact the problem is they issue more tags than the herds can sustain. And to top it off, they give you an area to hunt the size of 4 counties. Consequently if an area gets good it won't be good long; the majority will always hunt the best areas.
Do I think hunting in Utah has gotton better or worse in the last ten years? In limited entry areas, where a guy is lucky to draw 1-2 tags in his lifetime, yes, I think it has improved greatly. As for the rest of the State, it has gone to hell. I won't even waste my time with a Utah general season tag anymore. There are to many other awesome places to hunt out of State.

Mike
 
Prism, that very attitude of "it is my god given right to hunt every year" is the whole reason we have not gone to a micromanagement system in Utah.

Mike
 
ARROWHNTR,

You know what they say about arguing with success;)

You guys have w/o a doubt taken some great bucks the last couple of years. Infact, your uncles buck is the largest legally taken buck off of public land in that area (that I know of) in my short 31 years.

But, I'm sure you'd agree that you guys are a huge exception to what most of the hunters experience in that country.

Any buck over 140 is a huge accomplishment anymore on Utah's general hunts, and I'm not dissing on 160 class bucks. However, I know that the area is capable of SO MUCH more, and it pains me to see it not getting any better.

This past year on the winter ranges around here was the worst of my entire life. Sure there were a handful of 160-180 bucks, but the majority of them were CWMU bucks. I saw ONE buck all winter that may have gone 190.

There are some good bucks around, but I don't believe the area is living up to 10% of what it could be and use to be.

It's just a lot of wasted potential, and I'm afraid we may never see it get any better.
 
I would say much worse. I used to see lots of good bucks every year. Now it is a good hunt if I see 2 or 3. The exception to this is the extended area of the wasatch. I would sure like to see smaller block management and go back to point restrictions. I know the years when Fish Lake was 3 point or better there were nice bucks all over. The year they opened it up everything changed for the worse. Hopefully something will change for the better real soon.
 
I believe 3 point or better areas are not good for the deer. Here is my reasoning you don't get the mature dominate bucks breeding the does. Therefore you don't pass on the best possible genetics.

Here is a better idea in my opinion to throw at ya.
This is from my own experience
I used to be a big riffle hunter and got sick of every area I hunted I would see millions of orange dots on every ridge and never see a decent buck all season. I now only hunt with a bow and have hunted the Wasatch for almost 10 years and this unit has gotten better every year. Why has it gotten better? It isn't because of less hunters. This unit is hunted extremely hard from Aug thru end of Nov. Some days it is down right frustrating! But I will still hike those mountains and put up with the crowds of people because of the size of deer that roam those hills.
The reasons this unit has gotten better is archer hunters that hunt this unit are not as successful as rifle hunters or they are holding of on their trigger!
It is my personal opinion that if the rest of Utah wants to have a better hunting experience they need to cut the number of the more successful hunters down meaning "Riffle and smoke gun hunters". I will put smoke gun hunters in this category because these guns in the average person hands are down right accurate.

This would be my goal and it would need a few years to perfect.
It would be a state wide draw with micro managed units with three short four or five day seasons. This would help the deer out by not running into other hunters when being pursued. It might also take you 3 to 4 years to draw but when you do draw you might be able to kill 160 to 180 class or better deer. This would turn the whole state into a kind of limited entry unit but with more opportunity then the current LE units. The other draw back to my solution is you would have to raise the price of the tags also.
But if you still wanted to hunt every year and you didn't draw a tag you could still buy an over the counter archery permit and hunt those same units with a longer season like the current extended unit.

Fire away I am open to suggestions.
 
Prism,

I would agree with you that we are probobly the exception because of the amount of time spent, but I guess it just goes to show that there are some great bucks around if you want it bad enough.

I also agree that this state is capable of producing so much more, but we have to have a change in the mentality of the divison and of hunters.

I will work on putting up some picture of these deer which have all been taken out of the NE unit.
 
Here are last two year NE Bucks

202" Typical 04' Archery

KensDeerMount006.jpg


165" 05' Archery

prestonBuck018.jpg


160" 05' Rifle

Kyle05deer.jpg
 
Nice pics! I am happy to be able to say I was there for each one. All the time and effort was all worth it.
 
Arrowhntr - Nice bucks. It goes to show that putting in the time and effort can and usually does pay-off.

As for Utah's Deer herds; I think they were slowly improving until the 2004 season's early snow and too many bucks taken. I've seen fewer bucks on the winter range around my house the last couple winters as well. Basically, I think the deer herds are stagnent.

Smokepole
 
There's no doubt that Utah has everything it needs to be the premo-trophy state, but as long as you combine ultra-high demand (tradgedy of the commons), with shrinking land access (privatization)and break-neck development (construction on critical range) ---more and more hunters will either quit, crowd into the public land, go out-of-state or a combination.

In the 15 years that I lived there, I can't count the number of hunters who quit out of frustration and disillusionment, taking with them their kids who found more value in snowmobiling, boating etc. as their preference for outdoor recreation. It was cheaper to buy the RVs and less hassle for them than fighting orange-clad crowds just to find a campsite come fall.

The DWR's interesting and unique "arrangements" with private land holders and operators was a contributor as well, and more than a few co-workers were upset enough with the un-equality of seasons and regulations that they would entertain poaching more out of spite, than anything else.

Utah doesn't have a wildlife problem -- it has a people problem--- and unfortunately it is serving as a warning to other western states with growing populations as to what's around the corner.

The predator/prey/habitat/carrying capacity relationship applies.
 

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