Thoughts on CWMU's?

B

BowHuntr

Active Member
Messages
276
So, the DWR's claim to CWMU's are that they provide an incentive to landowners to keep the habitat intact for wildlife and not sellout to some type of development. I can't disagree with that. The other big reason is the money behind the whole thing, but that's not why I'm posting. The one thing I do have a problem with, and maybe it's just me, but what is the purpose or idea of letting people hunt with rifles starting September 1st? The whole claim to these cwmu's is to "preserve," but I don't see how letting guys hunt with rifles starting the 1st of September helps preserve anything. Anyone that has hunted for any length of time knows that bucks are out and about more during the summer months, and it's not until they shed their velvet that they really change their behavior patterns. People might say, well if you draw one of these tags you only get to hunt for so many days. I don't find that to be a valid excuse. Not to mention the fact that most of these hunts run for at least 2 months.

The whole idea that I'm out on the bow hunt in September, and there are people out hunting with rifles at the same time upsets me a little bit. I don't understand some of the logic that the udwr uses sometimes. What are your guys's thoughts???

bowhuntr
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-06 AT 08:30AM (MST)[p]Sorry your upset--although I don't see what is so upsetting?my guess is that you are really uneducated to the program and what it does.

There is a real misconception with most of the public as to what the CWMU program is and what it does for landowners, the UDWR, and the public.

The logic is this--as a CWMU operator/landowner you need to move 25 hunters/clients including the public hunter through your 20,000 acres of PRIVATE PROPERTY over the course of what is now 61 days. Now one of the nice things about a CWMU is that you don't have to have those same 25 guys on those 20,000 areas all during the same general season as everyone else. If this were the case?explain the logic of even having the program? As a landowner you would then do what was done in the past:
1?call the UDWR 24/7 to complain about depredation issues and UDWR would come in and blast and kill a bunch of deer and elk--is this preservation?
2?just sell trespass permits and complete exclude the public hunter--is this preservation?
3?or sell your property so it can be made in to 40 acre cabin lots and exclude all hunting forever--is this preservation?

For the most part the CWMU program is a win for everyone?sure there are those sour apple units out there but overall opportunities are there for publich hunters which were not before, the landowners are able to keep their properties ?wild? because most limit harvest quality and quantity of animals are increasing and spilling over on to public lands.

Are these at all good reasons to have such a program that allows some flexibility with something as silly as a 61 day season of which most clients/hunters only hunt 5-7 days? How many days to you hunt a year? 10+ archery days if you are a dedicated hunter you hunt an additional 10+ days with a ML and rifle--I promise you very few CWMU folks hunt more than 7 days.


Todd Black
BTO
 
I agree that the CWMU is a pretty good concept, other than one really frustrating issue. I have enough bonus points to draw some good CWMU's. So, I have researched and made some calls (just a few) and I have more or less received the same response.....

The CWMU tells you the days that you (public hunter) can hunt. This means that they will only let you come in after the high dollar clients finish their harvest in September. In fact, two guides (not operators) on a particular CWMU told me that I wouldn't even be able to scout the property if I drew a tag! I still need to get in contact with the operator to find out if that statement is true.

IMO, it seems that Blanding_Boy's point #2 is more the case than not. Athough the public hunter gets access to the property, it isn't during the prime time that the high dollar hunter gets to hunt the prime bucks. In the CWMU?s that I'm interested in, that's the difference between a chance at a high quality buck and nada.

I really wish the UDWR would change the rules so the public hunter who obtains a tag through the draw system would get full access to the CWMU, and not be treated as second class. Since there is typically only a couple of tags for public hunters to draw, I can't see how this would be a problem. This could and should be a more balanced "Win / Win".

Because of the number of bonus points that I have, and my knowledge of some very good CWMU's that I would like to hunt, I may have a stronger opinion on this than most.

Anyone else feel this way......?

Tw-
 
TW- you need to give me some meat and evidence behind thess statements;

"This means that they will only let you come in after the high dollar clients finish their harvest in September"

"It isn't during the prime time that the high dollar hunter gets to hunt the prime bucks"

I can tell you many who let the public hunter come when the want, guide them, have them come first, and quite often kill the biggest animal--that is a very un true statment--shame on you! I would be willing to bet that none of them said--i will let you come after the high paying client has come and killed. What is prime time? The rut for elk last a month--when is prime time for deer? We often kill our biggest bucks during the general season deer hunt.

Further--tell me since we are reviewing the program--what you mean by this statement "change the rules so the public hunter who obtains a tag through the draw system would get full access to the CWMU"

The current rule says CWMUs have to provide equal opportunity.
If they don't allow private clients to scout--should you be able to? If so how many days--what days--should I just give you complete access to the properyt 24/7? If they don't allow access to certain portions of the CWMU--should you have access to these areas? If the private clients are only allowed to hunt 5 days during the 61 day season--should you be allowed to hunt all 61 days? If all the private hunters are guided--should you be required to be guided as well? If you answered yes to any of these--please give me your justification.

Finally privately--I would like to know which specific units you are talking about applying for or considering applying for?


BTO
 
Obviously blanding boy is deep into the CWMU which most of us were already aware of. I see pros and cons to the system. Certainly the landowners will favor the high money guys. That is part of the system, that the landowners make some money off of the game on their property. The money guys won't return to hunt if you give them the week that doesn't produce any game, therefore the guys that draw in some cases, not all, will certainly, even if it isn't done on purpose, be booked during the less productive hunting time. In some units it does not matter when you hunt particulary and these guys always seem to treat the public hunter like gold. If you are being guided, you shouldn't be able to scout anymore than a private hunter. I thinkg for most people they just get frustrated with the american system in general (the rich get more opportunities than the poor) but what do you want communism. The problem I have are the CWMU owners/directors etc who think that they are impressive hunters or above the crowd when in fact, through inheritance, they happen to have 20,000 acres of land that receives little competition. Even my 5 year old boy could shoot a nice animal off many of the units. Go down the list and count how many of the CWMU are owned by guys that are self made from this generation, not very many. So for all the regular guys that aren't self made, you at least have a chance to hunt this CWMU property through this system, so be happy. Yeah right.

T
 
BB-
Don't shame me, shame on you for not giving me a little credit of NOT being totally in the dark! Nothing is perfect, and I believe the "Rules" are being a little bent in some of the CWMU units. Look, you obviously have more knowledge about CWMU's and the rules associated than I. I know the little research that I have done does not qualify me to argue with you or anyone, and I did not. I am only telling you what I have learned through a little research. I personally know two individuals that guide on one very high priced/high producing CWMU. They have both shared with me the advantages of the paying client has over the public hunter. The biggest disadvantage is the fact that the paying client starts their hunt in Sept. I don't know your definition of "prime time", but hunting big bucks with a rifle in September is definitely on the top of my list. They also mentioned that I would only get access only after the paid clients have finished their hunt. The next disadvantage they told me was that I would not get access to the gates for scouting. Again, I don't know if this statement is true, just what they told me. They could be just trying to keep me from competing with them in the draw, for all I know. I am not here trying to get anyone in trouble or name names. I do hope you??re right about them not being able to keep you out for scouting. If I end drawing a tag for the CWMU, I hope I can come to you for some kind of legal enforcement if they don??t let me in or don??t give me the dates that I want ??

I assume a lot of the ??special treatment?? to paying clients, is more prominent with the high quality CWMU??s to which I am referring. I am not interested in one of the many average CWMU??s that are available.

Tw-
 
First?I will state it if you all don't know already I am affiliated with the CWMU program and the CWMU Association. What you may not know is that when I first became aware of it I hated?thought it was the most stupid worthless?public wildlife sealing program there was. However, after I researched, got involved with and participated in?I know think it is conceptually one of the best things out there.

Are there bad apples in the CWMU program?you better believe it?like any business there are the crooks and the dishonest folks that are all about what's in it for me. However there are way more that are in the program for its economic and conservation practices and management?these are the good guys.

Tw--I sent you a PM and email--I wasn't trying to come off as know it all or putting you in your place--All I am trying to point out is that comments such that you made paint the picture that All CWMUs are this way?we get tired of only hearing these type of experiences when there are just as many good experiences. You have spoken with 2 guides not the operator who makes the decisions?and you have make and cast your judgments?is this fair?

Should CWMUS cater to the 'high paying clients' yes, they have to or they wouldn't be a good business person. Should they bend over backwards to do all they can to cater and assist the public hunter?without a doubt?they are jeopardizing their COR and business by not so doing and some have lost it.

The biggest problem is the interpretation of 'equal opportunity' by the public hunter, the operator, and the UDWR/Wildlife Board and law makers--I will ask again--what is 'equal opportunity'. THIS IS WHAT WE ALL STRUGGLE WITH?what rules should be created and what rules need to be changed. I'm serious?we welcome suggestions. Keeping in mind if it gets to be where it is not profitable and there is too much red tape we get folks dropping out of the program.

Deerlove?I don't know the answer to that question short of calling them all up I don't know how you would find out. I right in thinking that this is when you would define ?prime time? for a CWMU deer hunt. Many allow hunting of bucks in September?I know several that I wouldn't want to be their either of those times?but that's just me. As stated earlier there are several that will just about let you come anytime you want. Some that mix guide public hunters and mix them in when the ?high paying? clients are there. My point is that there are many differences in CWMUs out there as far as quality, habitat, and the ?prime time? of hunting them so to put down the first week of Sept. as the time all public hunters hunt deer on the CWMUs would be stupid don't you think?

Again?I'm serious the CWMU program is up for review (by the UDWR/Wildlife Board)?the biggest problem we have is defining ?equal opportunity? please send me an email helping us to define what exactly that is and I will be more than willing and happy to forward it to the review board.

Todd Black
BTO
 
I am a Sportsman's Rep on the CWMU committee. Feel free to send me any ideas you have concerning the program thru a Private Message, (*my email won't allow unknown addresses). I don't know if this is the best form to get feedback on the subject, but I'll give it a shot. I have talked with many sportsman on the issue about what they would like to see enhanced or changed. For the most part, those who have never hunted a CWMU have reservations while those who have hunted on a CWMU have had positive experiences. Talk, civily, with me or Todd and good ideas may be brought to light.
 
I would never ever put in for a CWMU hunt again.

Reasons why.

You can't scout.
You hunt WHEN they tell you to hunt.
You hunt WHERE they tell you to hunt.

It doesn't matter what they tell you,If they have people paying high dollar for a land owner tag, those guys will be hunting the prime areas and the public draw hunter will be hunting down by the ranch house next to the highway.
 
I drew a CWMU bull moose this year, so I haven't been on the actual hunt yet, but have been in contact with the operator.

The hunt is scheduled for five days, but the operator said they want me happy and will bend over backwards to make sure I get a good bull, even if it takes a little longer. He pretty much asked me when I want to hunt and said they'd try their best to work around my schedule.

There's no scouting allowed, which doesn't concern me a whole lot when it comes to hunting moose in the rut because they'll probably be moving on and off the property any way. Plus I can understand why they wouldn't want people running all over their property throughout the off-season, but I can see where it might bother others.

I know at least three other people who've hunted this property in the past, and for the most part, they had a great experience. The operator has changed since two of them hunted it, which seems to have made a huge difference. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I have a good experience.....
 
My problem with the CWMU and land owner assoc. Is the total amount givien to these groups and then the lack or return the public gets back.

Granted we get to hunt some private land that a few lucky people from the public draw get to hunt on but for the most part we get nothing in return.
These groups get to keep all the money from the sell of tags and trophy fees yet nothing comes back to the public, the animals harvested are for the most part public, they are controlled by public tax dollars.

There is a big debate on the fees that the DWR is wanting to pass on to the public, now imagine if the CWMU and Landowner Assoc. had to pay a percent back, that would almost cover the amount that the DWR needs for funding.

I do support and don't mind these groups but there needs to be a shake up and offer more back to the public then what they are offering us now.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-06 AT 03:54PM (MST)[p]>I would never ever put in
>for a CWMU hunt again.
>
>
> Reasons why.
>
> You can't scout.
> You hunt WHEN they
>tell you to hunt.
> You hunt WHERE they
>tell you to hunt.
>
> It doesn't matter what they
>tell you,If they have people
>paying high dollar for a
>land owner tag, those guys
>will be hunting the prime
>areas and the public draw
>hunter will be hunting down
>by the ranch house next
>to the highway.

Shotgunjim,

Did you contact the DWR or do anything about your negative experience? As with many things in life, there's good and bad, but IMHO, lumping all CWMU's into one category is foolish...
 
I HAVE BEEN LUCKY AND HAVE DRAWN 2 CWMU TAGS. ONE NORTHERN UNIT WHERE I KILLED A 34" DEER AND A SOUTHERN UNIT WERE I KILLED A NICE BULL. I WAS TREATED VERY WELL ON BOTH UNITS. THEY HELPED AND WANTED ME TO GET NICE DEER AND ELK. IT WOULD BE VERY HARD FOR THEM TO LET YOU HUNT ANY TIME WITH THE GUIDED HUNTS.
I HAVE A FRIEND THAT DREW A ELK CWMU AND WAS NOT TREATED VERY WELL AND WAS ONLY ALLOWED TO HUNT PART OF THE UNIT.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK, THESE ARE SOME OF THE BEST PLACES THAT YOU CAN DRAW IN UTAH
 
I have a couple buddies who have drawn CWMU tags over the past three years, and they both seemed very pleased with their hunts. I really don't have a problem with the idea of CWMU's in general. Do I think there needs to be some changes? Yes I do. I don't see why exceptions are made which allow hunters to hunt with any weapon starting Sept. 1st. In my opinion the season dates and weapon restrictions should be the same across the board, CWMU or not. I didn't hear anybody address this aspect of the CWMU's.

bowhuntr
 
WHS--here we go...

"the lack or return the public gets back" Dude--your uneducated about the CWMU program aren't you?

YOu said
"Granted we get to hunt some private land that a few lucky people from the public draw get to hunt on but for the most part we get nothing in return"
--Isn't 10% of the buck deer and bull elk something? Isn't
40% of the antelope and moose permits something? Isn't 80-100% of the antlerless permits something? All of this and without it you surley wouldn't have a return at all because you would never be able to hunt the property and likely because of depredation most of the "public wildlife" would be dead from eating private groceries.

You said
"These groups get to keep all the money from the sell of tags and trophy fees yet nothing comes back to the public, the animals harvested are for the most part public, they are controlled by public tax dollars".
How are public wildlife that eat sleep and drink on private land controled by public tax dollars? If someone came to your house and ate and drank your food and stayed over every night and brought all of his family and friends over would you be willing to do that for free? Or perhaps you might want some compensation.

Dud--take an economic class or try making a living with just cows these days--Quite frankly the only reason many of these private lands are still in operation is because they have some additional income from wildlife--otherwise they would all be cabin lots.

You said
"There is a big debate on the fees that the DWR is wanting to pass on to the public, now imagine if the CWMU and Landowner Assoc. had to pay a percent back, that would almost cover the amount that the DWR needs for funding."

Yep just ask any of the DWR employees how much money they would be getting back dealing with all the depredation issues esp. in the northern region.

You said
"I do support and don't mind these groups but there needs to be a shake up and offer more back to the public then what they are offering us now".

I ask like what? What would make you and your kind happy? Please do tell....

Todd Black
BTO
 
Todd,

You crack me up, one I do raise cows and with the market right now I make great money off it. So we will throw that one right out the window.

I am very well enlightened about the topic and subject. Myself and my "kind" would like to see more restrictions on these operations.

These operations in Utah make alot of money and give really nothing back, Granted we do get those so few tags that the public gets a slim chance at getting, we are then at the mercy of the operator, we can come and go when he sees fit, granted there is a system to weed out the bad apples but it doesn't happen.

To say that this is the only way that these farmers get money is a joke, I am very well aware of farming and land owning and most of these farmers do fine without this extra money.

The problem with the CWMU's is not so much the land owner but the operator, It is the operator that keeps wanting more and more money. For most part the operator is taking over half of the money generated from the sell of tags. Now that is great business. now at almost a 100% mark up, No wonder your so close minded and strong willed on this subject.

Now I do like the program and its has got alot of great things with it but they can stand to lose 10% or even 5% of tag prices to go back to the DWR for operation purposes. But then again it will take away from the operator's money so that they can buy their new truck the next year.


Ray
 
With the way land is going lately. Very little CMWU's will not be sold off and developed. At least in the northern part of the state. I.E. Hardscrable is up for sale now.

It's a good thought on the UDWR's part and I think it will slow down some of the development however there is too much money in the development of these lands for the UDWR to stop it.

They should be taking tag money and purchasing land when it comes available if they want to help the Wildlife.
 
Back in the days before the CWMU's the DWR called alot on the hunters deperdation pool, now days its almost an act of god to get lucky to get a deperdation tag. And the amount of hunters on these hunts most of the time out numbered the amount allowed on the CWMU's now.
 
I have one hunting ranch in Utah, & the only reason I will not enroll in the CWMU program is because of the crybaby public hunters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I have guided on a cwmu for 5 years now and know that the avg joe who draws a tag gets the same crack at all the bucks, also most cwmu's you dont have to spend alot of time scouting cause your in good deer numbers from day 1, of course if you pay the high dollar premium you get a guide and you then have a much better chance of knowing right where the big ones are :)
I feel they are a Great service to the public and hope to one day draw a tag for myself. just a recap some big bucks move in to those units during the genral hunt, i laso have taken and seen the biggest bucks right during or just after the gen hunt has ended. and almost all cwmu put breaks between there hunters so that the deer have a chance to relax abit. just my 2 cents
 
I'm not planning on putting in for a CWMU anytime soon. But if I did, I'd scout it anyway. I'd hire a small plane/pilot and spend a couple hundred bucks some time before the hunt. It'd be the best way to back door some of those dumbass outfitters who think they own every piece of land out there and the wildlife on it. My buddies dad does this every fall to the tune of a $100 an hour. I've flown with him several times just for the hell of it. You can cover a lot of ground in one hour. Take a map, camera, GPS and you'll increase your odds significantly.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-06 AT 08:09AM (MST)[p]Turd, you must be one of the dumb asses I was referring to. Glad to strike a nerve!
 
I've experienced CWMUs from most angles. I've bought tags, drawn tags, sold tags, and guided tags.

I have never personally had a negative experience on a CWMU. Including when either myself or a family member drew and the operator didn't know us from Adam. I felt like we were treated fairly, even if we weren't allowed to scout.

You've got to keep in mind that with most CWMUs you're dealing with multiple landowners, and often times multiple outfitters, landowners familys, grazing, and other private property issues. Not just who paid more to hunt.

Most operators can't simply turn anyone loose (public or private) anytime the hunter feels like scouting, hunting, etc... There's a lot more involved in the equation than just who gets to hunt when and where.

Overall I think it's a good program. It's not perfect, but I think the benefits outway the negatives.

How many of you honestly think you'd ever have a chance to hunt Deseret, the Heaton, Ensign, etc. etc. if it wasn't for the CWMU program. My guess is never.

The fact is that CWMUs that have November hunts are required to let the public hunters hunt during November if they wish.

Because of this reason often paying deer hunters have been denied the ability to hunt in November. So, who's getting the better time to hunt?

If you're simply looking for a long hunt and a lot of scouting the last time I checked you could scout year round on public and pretty much hunt somewhere in Utah for big game from mid August to December. To think that we should be given the same opporunity on someone's private land is well............

Some units are good late, some are good early, and others are good all of the time. We've all got the opportunity to do our own homework to find a CWMU that works for us individually if at all. Some are obviously better than others for different reasons.

I do believe that public hunters should be given access to the entire unit, for the same amount of time that paying hunters are given-usually 5-7 days.

Anyways, like most things you've got to take the good with bad, but in my opinion with a little research CWMUs offer some of the best draw odds for trophy animals in the draw if you're willing to do some homework!

Within the next 10 years I believe that the majority of CWMUs in northern Utah will be too fragmented with development and other private property issues to be enrolled in the CWMU program.

The country these units are comprised of will be lost to every hunter-paying and public, and more importantly it will be lost to our wildlife.

www.neverenoughbiggame.com
 
BB-
I know we have passed some private messages back and forth on this issue, but you asked for input on what could be done to improve the CWMU?s so I am going to post what I regard as the hottest issues:

1. As per BowHuntr, ?the season dates and weapon restrictions should be the same across the board, CWMU or not.? Just from the limited knowledge that I have gained, IMO - this is by far the hottest issue.

2. The property needs to be open for scouting (I realize this may only apply to the ?bad apples? but still...) at least for a limited number of days.

3. The CWMU tag holder should NOT be restricted to hunt only a particular portion or the property.

The above three issues are what I hear the most, but again I have only started my research. The 4th item is something I added myself.

4. You stated that most CWMU's go out of their way to help the public hunter have a successful hunt and it is the "Bad Apples" that are giving all CWMU's a bad reputation. If this is true then there needs to be a ?Hot-Line? phone number that a CWMU tag holder can call for legal help when the ?Bad Apples? do not comply with the rules. (This may already be the case, but knowing about a Hot Line that takes action would sure help my confidence).

You asked and you shall receive. So, please help the average joe by addressing these issues with the board. I am going to try to make it to the meeting for moral support :)

TW-
 
My experiences on CWMU's so far have been good to excellent. A CWMU Operator offered me the opportunity to hunt an area of his ranch that he just doesn't hunt with his paying clients because it is just too darn far from his roads. He told me the last time he took a client in this part of his ranch, the client harvested one of the biggest moose ever taken off the ranch. Also, the Operator did allow me to do some scouting on only this part of the ranch. I harvested a B&C moose with my bow that year, what a hunt. All the other CWMU's that I have hunted would not allow any pre-season scouting. I can understand why because of his ranching/farming operations and the distractions that scouting by individuals who are not already familiar with the ranch can cause. It's private property, please respect the Landowner and/or the Operator. Basically (I believe), if you do research, you can find a CWMU that will meet or exceed what your looking for.

Smokepole
 
I'm not from Utah but hunted once on a CWMU as a paying client.

It seems to me.....

The landowner involved in the program gets guaranteed tags and a liberal season to accommodate his paying customers. In exchange for all that the landowner must accommodate a few public hunters. As the landowner I would bend over backwards to see that my public hunter(s) had the very best experience possible. I would want that hunter to go home and tell everyone he knew what a good deal he got.

For a landowner to do otherwise would be to put his own operation in jepordy, and I'm amazed that there are a few who don't see it that way!

Steve
 
I drew the tag in 1994. No I did not contact the dwr. I thought thats how it was done and if I didn't like it then don't put in for cwmu tags again. I chalked it up to lessoned learned and thank god I didn't waist any bonus points on it.
 
Steve,

You made some great points. Like I said, I've never personally had a really bad experience. I know some that have or claim to have had a bad experience, but not many.

The ability to keep a CWMU has a lot to do with how the public hunters are treated. I know on the CWMUs I've been involved with that public hunters were treated just as good if not better than the paying.

From a business stand point it doesn't make any sense to piss off those that could very well put you out of business, and in this case I think the public hunter has more clout than the paying.
 
" You have to hunt where they tell you" "You have to hunt when they tell you"

Man, some of you guys need to go out and buy your own land, then see how you would feel if some joe blow hunter wanted to turn your ranch into his own personal hunting honey hole, just because he drew some government tag. You should feel lucky to get the chance to hunt on private land that you are not paying for.

Behind teenage girls, I believe hunters could perhaps be the biggest group of whiners ever.........
 
I can tell ya that CMU do kill alot of buck during the general season(seen them at the locker) because of the hunting pressure that push those bucks on to CMU's it like a small island of refuge, I also think that it's a thin line where clients and the public hunters stand. I would try like crazy to get the client back so his hunt has to be first or at lest the same time as the public hunter and they would have to be in and around the same part of the CMU so their can be no he's hunting the best part of the CMU.If the public guy can't scout why don't they send videos just like they do for those paying clients, I think that would smooth a lot of nerves.
 
>Todd how many many CWMU s
>are letting the public hunters
>hunt Sept 1st or the
>first week in Nov?

I can't answer for Todd, but not very many CWMU's that I know of including the one that I hunt, allow hunting during November for deer. I know a lot of CWMU's that let public hunters hunt September 1st. The apparent myth that hunters believe is that the last 2 weeks of September is "prime time". You bet, there is nothing like elk in the rut, but if people think that is the only time you can kill a good bull then you haven't hunted much. In some ways killing a good bull is more difficult when the rut is in full swing. There is nothing but good coming from the CWMU's. I agree with Todd 100%!

www.awholelottabull.com
 
Gator - I outfit primarily CWMU's and while I support your video theory, it's not possible to do that all the time for several reasons that are too complicated to go into here. The obvious reason is time. What I can tell you is that the landowners that I work with and myself want the public hunters to get great animals. We want our paying clients to see what kind of animals are taken off the ranches on a regular basis. The landowners I work with give out excellent information to the public hunters that allow them to harvest good animals. One of them will actually guide the public hunters himself, not because he wants to keep tabs on the hunters but because he knows the ranch and what the elk/deer do at certain times of the day, where they bed, where they feed and where they water. You know as well as I do that it takes several trips of covering a lot of ground and bumping game to figure out what they do. Most landowners can't afford to have that happen and want to minimize those types of problems, thus they do want to help you out. Yah, there are probably those landowners that are you-know-whats but I would tend to think that they are far and few between. I fully support the landowner efforts and CWMU theory. IMO it's one of the best programs for turning out quality animals the state has.
www.awholelottabull.com
 
"The problem with the CWMU's is not so much the land owner but the operator, It is the operator that keeps wanting more and more money. For most part the operator is taking over half of the money generated from the sell of tags. Now that is great business. now at almost a 100% mark up, No wonder your so close minded and strong willed on this subject." Quote - Ray

Ray - I was actually listening to what you had to say until you made that stupid statement. You just proved to me and several others on this post that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Try as little s a 25% markup on tags for the operator. 100% markup? Are you freakin' kidding me. I wish. Then it would be something more than a hobby. If you are the cattleman you say you are, then you know how much it costs in equipment, man power, and supplies to run a operation with 15,000 to 20,000 acres. If that ranch gets 10 tags total and 2 go to the public that leaves the rancher 8 tags to sell. If that rancher charges the operator $6,000.00 (which is the lower than average)his gross income from tags is $48,000.00. Pay the property taxes on that many acres and what do you have left?That's all this land is good for other than grazing. You can't turn crops off this. Most ranchers could sell their land for millions of dollars but don't. Why? Because they care about the habitat, the elk, mule deer, and moose. They don't want to see their land developed. For most of these landowners it's a way of life. If you are so smart you tell me why a landowner wouldn't want sell out for millions vs thousands. I would like to see your answer to that one. Go ahead and put more restrictions on these landowners and they will sell and then see what happens. Get a clue!


www.awholelottabull.com
 
Wholelotofbull,,,


I do know alot about the program, I was offered the chance to run on once and turned it down, And to say that the operator makes so few money is crap. I am sorry that your agreement between you and your association does not but much money in your wallet, That was an agreement that you have and then decided what to sell the tags for. There are alot of these operators that make great money off of these tags and landowners.

And alot of these farmers are not even farming their land, their animals are on grazing permits on that they put on public land and then the move their animals on to private land during the winter.

I am not trying to pick a fight, I have said three times now that the CWMU is a great program, there just needs to be some shake up within the system, and have some going back to the DWR.
 
I'm was just saying that if you take a video of some deer and elk to send to a client it doesn't take much more time or money to burn off another copy, Then if the public hunter calls, tell him to send you $ for postage and handling, I sure most would love to see the area they are going to hunt before the season and would be willing to send the money.That would sure buy a lot of good will from thr public hunters as they say good news travels fast and bad news travels even faster.Look what good you would recieve out this small thing, or do nothing and wait until everyone is pi$$ed off and they TAKE the option out of your hands, it easier to run your own ship then let some-one else tell you how to run it. I hope you all have a great season,

By the way I like CMU's I just think they might be getting too many of them.
 

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