unfair in nm

L

lock82

Guest
There are guys who would not help the average guy but will sell his sole for the highiest price for are fading big deer here in nm and in other states. Its hurting us all. I used to be able to hunt almost anywhere around home. Now these same guys say "tresspass fees?"
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-06 AT 04:47PM (MST)[p]I dont see how a landowner getting a trespass fee could even be remotely compared to selling his soul. Really not a good choice of words. Save a few bucks and pay a trespass fee, if you want it bad enough you will find a way to make it happen. Also, there is quite a bit of public ground in NM that wont cost you a penny.

Drum
 
So what about my kids? Is this a rich mans sport. Soon we will be arrested for killing the "kings deer" Honestly, when is it going to wright itself, when is it going to end? Some of the best units in the state are nearly imposible to draw. I have hunted the unit near my home town 2 in the last 5 years. btw, I only used the example of "selling there sole" to try and get a point across. I withdraw that comment

Dex
 
btw, I only
>used the example of "selling
>there sole" to try and
>get a point across. I
>withdraw that comment
>
>Dex


He sold the bottom of his shoes??? WTF??? Lunatic!!!
 
Of course the best units are the hardest to draw. That is why they become the best units, they are managed for trophy deer. If they were easy to draw then there would not be any trophy animals. And what is wrong with someone charging a tresspass fee? Is is their land. If I was a land owner there is no way I would open it up for whoever felt like coming to hunt. Why would someone want to turn their private property into a playground? People would tear up their land. Every year you see good animals coming off of public land. Just takes a little more effort, but end the end you know that your sucess was your own doing and you werent just along for the ride paying someone to do the leg work for you.
 
The nice thing about NM is that you have as good as chance as the guy "who sold his sole" hehe, to draw a 2b tag. WTF are you talking about. Why don't you bietch about some other states.
 
I'll jump in- as a former NM resident, I'll agree that not having preference points that accumulate is a negative. As a native of Texas, however, where about the only public land is the right of way along the highway, be glad you have the public access you do. Especially since a large majority of the public land is owned by the federal government, but the state gets to say who can hunt there.

The United States Government is the largest landowner in this country, so we should all be thankful to have access rights to what is ours.
 
SOLE what..... It has placed an unfair price on things, for example, a kid from a town down the raod offers "finders fees" for trophy size deer, he doesnt scout, he doesnt work hard, he doesnt put in the time, he just throws money out there and has every one else do the work. BUT in the end who gets the big payoff? who gets the credit, and at the same time has drawn the atention of everybody around to our unit? Well its this prick, and not for love of deer or hunting, but for money.
Can you spell GREED? So if you think that this is "OK" then I guess you have a bigger problem with your definition of "OK" then I do spelling.
The whole point, is that what used to be enjoyment has changed to employment and we are the ones who pay.


Dex
 
Greed? Selling your soul? Try farming or ranching for a while and see the damage deer and elk do. I know firsthand how much damage can be done on crop that take money out of MY FAMILIES bottom line. New Mexico does it right by compensating the landownder (at least a little bit) for the damage done. If you don't like it hunt public land or save your money and buy a private chunk.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-06 AT 08:49AM (MST)[p]You dont know what your talking about. I work for the very dept. you say gives "compensation" Not one of us here calls it "compensation" It is an incentive, not compensation. And since you are so savy on it you should also know that we DO NOT give incentives on deer like we do elk-not even close. There are hundreds of landowners given incentive elk tags, compared to maybe ten landowners in the entire state getting deer tags so unless you are a huge landowner,(70,000 acres)you are not one of them.

Dex
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-06 AT 08:48AM (MST)[p]One more thing, if you did file for loss of crop and asked for "compensation" the most that you could claim in one calendar year is $2500. It does not not matter how much, in your opinion, your bottom line is effected. One thing that we can count on is that you landowners are prone to tall stories.

Dex
 
WOW! Dex, your all over the place here, I am not sure that you even know what you want to argue about! Thanks for the morning laugh!

Your pissed that the landowners charge money for people to hunt their land then you talk about how little the landowners receive for crop damage. Its no wonder they charge money, elk will eat them out of a lot of profit. Seriously, now you have bitched about the landowners, a kid up the street and then basically undermined the validity of your own arguement with your last 2 posts. Seriously, thats funny stuff!

Drum
 
NM is ranked 8th in total public land acres as a percentage of area. Over 40% of the acres in the state are public land acres. There are 31,500,000 acreas open to you for hunting. What more can you ask for?

Get off the road and find a place to hunt. It can be done with a little work.

People with money will always have an advantage. That is the way it is, the way it has been and the way it will be in the future. Property owners are allowed to do what they want with their private property that is the rules we live with.

I have three kids and they don't have the opportunities I had growing up but we get out and hunt every chance and find places to hunt. Just the way it is.

Nemont
 
I have never hunted in NM, but I have hunted and have points in most of the western states. Tags are getting harder to draw and more expensive to buy, and it will only get worse. You could save your pennies, or wait out the draws, but for me I love to hunt too much too wait. I feel some of the best animals and some of the most rewarding hunting is on public ground where everyone has a chance. Nothing more rewarding than taking a trophy on public ground. I will eventually draw some good tags, but for now Im having fun being able to hunt every year and taking some quality animals. All of my wall hangers came from public ground DIY hunts, and Im pretty proud of that. Its not just NM its everywhere, but If you want it bad enough and are willing to put in the extra effort anything is possible.
 
I feel some of the same frustrations about land that can't be hunted without a fee. It is especially frustrating when a parcel of land goes up for sale that blocks access to public lands. Some land owners can gain control over tens of thousands of acres of public land by owning several hundred acres.

However, I think that we as hunters need to be part of the solution. If we don't petition the powers that be or join organizations that work to preserve lands for hunting we don't have much room to complain. Is it going to be expensive for us as hunters? Probably. People wanting their piece of the mountains, anti-hunters, etc. are willing to put up the money to oppose us. Land use issues will not go away but will get more intense with time.

Just my $.02.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-06 AT 11:47AM (MST)[p]drum,
My position has not changed at all, it has always been about the explotation of our natural resourses by landowners and guides. I do not expect you to uderstand because to do that you would have to see the thousands of bogus claims that are filed with the Dept each year. and they all stem from the same thing. Money, and how to get more. The bad thing about this that its the average guy that is going to suffer-95% of our residents will never get the chance to kill a trophy size deer, thats a shame, and it is because of our level of poverty as a state. They simply cant afford it.
I have been part of disscusions with landowners who have made clear to us that they will tie up thousands of acres of state or BLM if we dont cooporate or recipricate in kind with tags-this is fair? and I would be lying if I said the we dont have to give in on ocation to these guys. Be honest and dont kid yourself, the citizens are the one sufering. You keep talking about all the public groung that is available? what about ranches like the Lee ranch near Grants? It is a very large ranch with lots of elk and deer, it also has 40,000+ acres of puplic that is probably pound for pound the best elk country in the state. You have a one in three chance of drawing that tag, great right? WRONG!! Even if you have that tag you are not going to set foot on that public ground because its land locked and might as well be private. Coukld the land owner give access? Yes. will he ever? No, not unless you want to pay $8500-$13000. And to add anouther slap in the face he can hunt it all he wants with his so called "ranch only tags".
I can here your argument already about how he has done something worth while or sacrificed financialy somehow to deserve those tags. The fact remains that he profits, knowingly, from public ground in a way that only a private landowner should. And he is for sure not the only one.
And finaly, my comment about the $2500 was taken out of context, I ment it in the way that we have done extensive studies and in even the worst situations on farm or ranch groung, elk and or deer can do no more damage than that. NOT that we were being cheap. You can dispute this all you want but with the max. number of elk or deer in any given unit and the amount of agricultural ground in that same unit in is mathmatical fact.

WOW! Dex.
 
MORE TO MY POINT OF BEING TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT:

>Your pissed that the landowners charge
>money for people to hunt
>their land then you talk
>about how little the landowners
>receive for crop damage.
>
>
>Drum


This is the clasic place where the landowner fools the general public and obviously you. It is a fact that there has not been a case ever won in court for "Loss of revenew" for more than even $1800.00 so having said that $2500 is more than fair.

Dex
 
Dang dude, what do you do for the department you work for? Clean house. You sure as heck can't be sitting at a computer typing up reports with the way you spell. Go back to school and then maybe you can get a job where you can buy your own land and have your own access and tags!!!!!!!
 
"And finaly, my comment about the $2500 was taken out of context, I ment it in the way that we have done extensive studies and in even the worst situations on farm or ranch groung, elk and or deer can do no more damage than that."

Wow, things must be cheap in NM....here in Idaho, $2500=625 bushel of grain which is about 6 acres of production. $2500=714 bushel of corn or about 5 acres of production. $2500=416 cwt of potatoes or about 1.15 acres of production.

Let me tell you that it doesn't take too many elk or deer in a field to do that kind of damage. I for one don't believe your comment.

I do feel the same about public land being locked up, we have the same problem here, but like NM there is still a ton of public land with quality animals (if you work for them).

As far as the money thing, there is nothing you can do about it. Unfortunately money makes the world go around.

Personally I feel like the auto manufacturers are trying to price me out of the turbo diesel F350 market as those trucks are now over $50,000 and I can't afford it.

Makes my $110 sportsmans pack that includes deer, elk, bear, cougar, turkey, steelhead and salmon tags, along with hunting and fishing licenses seem like a real bargain!

Have a great fall! Its time boys!!!
 
Welcome to my world here in Kansas. All those saturday morning hunting shows of celebs killing big deer in Kansas has changed the landscape of hunting in Kansas forever. Our biggest problem is we are 95% private land ownership so there is no alternative.

Save your money boys because pay to play is the future of our sport. Those with the deepest pockets get to play or you can just watch it on T.V.
 
Obviously a lot of you guys aren't from New Mexico. The problem here is the lack of enforcement. Out of the eleven years i have hunted this state, I've only seen one game warden in the field. Every year they talk about how they're gonna stop this, they're gonna stop that, but do you see them making any attemp to stop it? NO. And you say anyone has a chance to draw any unit? Ya right. You have a hell of a better chance to draw when you put that guide number on your application. I've drawn my favorite unit once in five years. I've went to help people every year though, and see the same groups of people. When I asked them how they draw every year, they said, "I'm an outfitter and we put our number on the application! It always works. We can hunt anywhere we want!" So obviously you guys aren't from New Mexico.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-06 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]What makes a unit a "best unit?" I guess because it is a unit where the bucks have the biggest antlers. If you are speaking about trophy hunting, then yes, that IS a rich man's game and has been a rich man's game for a very long time. Trophy hunting -- the killing of a member of a statistically small population of exceptional specimens -- is going to be expensive. My own thinking is that hunting has NOT always been about trophy hunting and that part of the problem lies in shifting the focus of big game hunting to trophy hunting. Go hunt does on public land somewhere and give up your fetish for antlers. Surely you can draw a permit to hunt does in New Mexico on public ground, right?
 
RE: unfair in NM not ID

LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-06 AT 03:33PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-06 AT 03:28?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-06 AT 03:27?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-06 AT 03:25?PM (MST)

There are 2 units in the entire state that alow does to be killed, we just dont have the numbers nesesary for that. And back to the posting of elk and deer in "Imahoe" Please, I know that this is going to be hard for you to comprehend but you have 20 times the deer numbers that we have, same with elk. So when I talk about court cases here in NM thats why I include the "NM" and not a "ID". And you dont have to beleive me, it is a matter of public record, and now state law. You used crop numbers for support of your opinion? Okay lets do that.

If you have a 100 acre alfalfa field and you average 5 tons of hay per acre @ a price of $100 a ton thats $50,000. Lets go overboard and say that 100 head of elk are feedind in those fields every night for the 4 mounth growing season: 100 head of elk eating 15.lbs a night for 120 days =180,000 lbs. or 90 tons. At current market prices thats translates into $9000. Seems like alot of money right? WRONG, not when you consider that we actually have this exact senerio in several units, with slight differances in acreage, an the land owners by thier own addmision are selling tags, unguided, for $5000 an giuded for $10,000 a piece. Someone with 100 acres of hay is going to recieve a minimum of 4 tags; thats $20,000 without lifting a finger or starting a tractor and $40,000 if he spends a few days guiding.
Now, I addmit my numbers are a little off.... NOT ONE OF ARE LANDOWNERS HAVE HAD EVEN HALF THAT NUMBER OF ELK FOR EVEN HALF THOSE NUMBERS OF DAYS ON HIS PROPRETY. Thats more like $2250 worth of hay. My mistake. So "idhunters", if your going to give numbers, please be honest and put it in prospective. Dont just give one set of numbers-oh ya, I forgot thats what you land owners do.
As for outfitters getting in units more often? we do have 10% set up for non-residents and an aditional 3% for those of you with a guide number attached to your app. Is this fair? I know what I think.
By the way, is this forum filled with just land owners and giudes?

Dex
Cibola Co. spelling B champ "81" "82"
 
RE: unfair in NM not ID

Well if you work for the high and mighty game department, get things changed.
 
RE: unfair in NM not ID

"If you have a 100 acre alfalfa field and you average 5 tons of hay per acre @ a price of $100 a ton thats $50,000. Lets go overboard and say that 100 head of elk are feedind in those fields every night for the 4 mounth growing season: 100 head of elk eating 15.lbs a night for 120 days =180,000 lbs. or 90 tons. At current market prices thats translates into $9000."


Thanks Dex for supporting my argument that the crop damage exceeds $2500. I couldn't have said it any better.

Imahoe..did you think of that one all by yourself?

Just to let you know, I own the acre that my house sits on, so I guess I am a "landowner" huh?

YOu should re-read Alsatians post, its a good one.

Maybe you would be happy if all those landowners had to sell out and subdivide their ranches into "ranchettes"...thats pretty good for wildlife isn't it?

Sorry your so bitter, its a great time of year-4 days to my PUBLIC LAND elk hunt!
 
RE: unfair in NM not ID

I can't believe this post! It is all over the map. I AM from New Mexico and can say that I have applied for elk three times and gotten drawn three times. And thats for my first choice. Two bulls so far. $89.00 for a year's worth of elk meat, not bad. 400,000 acres to share with 249 other hunters...I'll take it! " 95% of residents won't ever harvest a trophy buck." Well, probably not from the seat of their truck or atv ( unless of course its December and you are in your truck , at night, with a spotlight and a case of empty beer bottles). What part of the population do you think actually goes after trophy bucks? I mean, seriously goes after them. Not many guys are willing to do what it takes. I'll update you after my October 28th public land deer tag ( for 60 dollars). I have seen bucks there that keep me up at night. No access fee.
I can't believe I'm hearing someone goe off about the lack of reasonably-priced hunting opportunities in New Mexico. When I eventually DON'T DRAW , I'll be happy to pay the cost of a landowner tag. It will probably be a cow tag though. Still a heck of alot of dinners for $300.
 
RE: unfair in NM not ID

Deer count is going down, too bad you got to ask to hunt private land to find deer. Sounds like the land owner knows what he is doing, GAME AND FISH? I"ve been hunting N.M. since the 60's and deer are going low.Good luck on your hunt
 
RE: unfair in NM not ID

idhunters, once again , if you read my post you will see that the figure actualy came in @ $2250.Thats still below the $2500, the exagerated figure came in at $9000. Key word "exagerated"
Anyway, the point has been missed in all of this, and I guess you dont care or want to see balance in the way things are done. I have a job that is most of the time is a double edged sword, I see real problems coming down the pike and I see hunters rights slowly being taken from you , me and everyone else. You point it out and everybody wants thier ignorance back because its comfortable. The most amazing thing about it is: YOU GUYS are the voice and all you can say is "well good for the land owner" "thats just the way it is" "thats hunting today" "to play you pay"
Well mark my words boys, big money is going to kill a giant buck this year in unit 10, not skill, not luck of the draw(because it wasnt nessesary) not time spent in the field. Nope, cash is the hunter and he is always going to get his buck. But dont wory next year you will have shorter hunt dates, the bow hunt will still be before the rut, there will still be 0 rut hunts for deer, and your tags will go up. But I guess the good thing is landowners will still be able to hunt elk (with a rifle not a muzle loader), during the rut, they will still have public land tied up, (and make money on it), they will still be given 3% of all tags and ....And you guys will foot the bill for it all. Im glad to see everyone so willing to help, it warms my heart.

Dex
 
RE: unfair in NM not ID

Dex,
I agree with you. But these dillholes will be Dillholes !
 
RE: unfair in NM not ID

Some of the best guys I know in NM are outfitters that will help just about anybody, But they aren't going to cut their own throats by giving you their honeyholes, It still a business to for them and a way of life. I don't sell Metal Building at a loss, But I been known to trade a few at cost. LOL
 
RE: unfair in NM

There are some good points being made here, and it is obviously a topic of great concern.

I know the landowner-only access to public landlocked land has been discussed before. I, too, think it is unreasonable to deny access to public land, but I don't know what we can reasonably expect to do to change the matter.

We have hunted the infamous Unit 34, public land, rifle hunt. This will be our 9th year. I suppose we're "gluttons for punishment."

We have had direct help from the Game Wardens when confronted by a landowner while we were legally hunting in a public access area, FWIW.
 
True Numbers !

I bought a 4000 acre ranch for hunting. I shoot one deer per year and have yet to kill an elk off of it in four years (Get the shakes when they come in, Archery LOVE IT)

The people that i have sold the rifle tags have done O.K. there are no guarantee's not even for land owners.

Cost $2,560,000.00 + $30,000 a ear wildlife projects and fence repairs to keep cattle out.

Insurance $6,550.00 Year

I have lots of trophy mulies because i choose not to over hunt them, I have killed four in four years biggest 188"

4 Divided into $2,596,550,00 = costing me $649,137.50 per deer so far, When these bucks that i raise jump the fence the lucky people on the public land get to take the same buck for the cost of a license, which is great by me.

Of course there are not to many on there side because it is all over hunted, so people can get the oppurtunity to enjoy the outdoors and hopefully introduce kids to the sport. There is no happy medium. Ranches are supplying and keeping the deer alive.
Game and Fish is unfortunately unable to cut the tags enough due to public pressure to hunt.



I do not allow most people to hunt on it because they will kill everything just like they already have on the over hunted public lands.

Any money i get will not ever come close to my costs!

I do it for the love of the sport.
 
I am new here as a member but I have read posts for a long time now. I think that there are a lot of problems with hunting these days. I am what most people call a "Trophy Hunter" because I do horn hunt and look for that ever elusive book animal. I also however often have the most fun and get the most enjoyment out of hunting when my family and I don't harvest anyting. I think that when we worry about the legacy we are going to leave our kids we should teach them that killing a "monster animal" is icing on the cake. That it is something that is earned and is most appreciated when gotten out of hard work and dedication. Personally I feel sorry for the people that hire or pay someone else to do all the work so they can go out and pull the trigger, cause they are missing out on the best and most fulfilling part of hunting.
I am a nevada resident so I know what it's like to have the odds of drawing a tag against you. But if you do your research in any state you will be a succesful hunter. I still believe how successful is up to you and how hard you are willing to work. Sometimes that mean changing your approach.
 
Whaaaaaaa!!!!! Get over it! Both sides. Landowners can do what they want on their own land and with who they want at any price they can get. Those of you (myself included)that can not afford it will just have to live with it. Landowners stop bitching about all the elk eating your feed. It gets old. Your cattle (those who have them) do so much damage to the land it is almost funny. What gets me is cattle are allowed on public land. Anythng that pisses and S$&TS in its own water can not be good for the land. If you want to do the land a favor kill a cow on public land (just my narrow minded opinion). With that said do not tresspass on private land and respect the landowners right to do what he wants with his land. They are good people doing what they can to make it in a industry that in my opinion will be gone in the future to large corporations fo rthe most part.
 
" $110 sportsmans pack that includes deer, elk, bear, cougar, turkey, steelhead and salmon tags, along with hunting and fishing licenses"

Hey, where do I get one of those packs!!!!



Sounds like there needs to be a reasonable guideline for reimbursement. If the landown is only allowing paying hunters access, than the fees that the hunter pays are the reimbursement. If they open it up to a minimum number (don't ask me how many!) of hunters without charge, than reimbursement from the state is reasonable. Some ranchers are figuring out that alfalfa is worth more in the gullet of a big game animal than in that of a beef. It is frustrating when I take my kids hunting and they work as hard, hiking for hours, as they do getting into good areas to find motorized vehicles there, but life is hard sometimes. If they can't enjoy hunting beyond just seeing and shooting, than it is not likely that they will hunt long anyway. If I were rich, I'd buy access in a minute. I'm not, so I dont'. I'm grateful Wyoming has as much beautiful, public land as it does. If the guy down the road can make a few bucks by selling access or hunts on the land he owns, maintains and pays taxes on, who am I to begrudge him that?
 
I have done well on public land in NM for many years. Problem is that you allowed landowners to have private tags in the first place. Business is business and if you have a problem with game animals then that is a cost of doing business. You have plenty of public land but it is so checkerboarded with private from the old land grants that you can be fooled by a greedy guide who lies to you about what is closed land. It happened to me twice but I was well prepared with maps and told them to KMA. We contacted NM game and fish and were told that almost all of the cow tags were thrown away so it is apparent that the landowners want to get the multi millions from selling bull tags and don't want a bunch of low life cow hunters messing up the big money hunts. It is not about reparations for damage it is all about big money and profit. If you don't like it then get a grass roots movement to change the law. Not likely because you will get big money from the Farm Bereau and outfitters all over the country to whip your butt. This issue has come up in Arizona for the last 20 years and has been beat down by organizing hunters and foundations to fight it. Good luck.
 
Just concerned guys, thats all. It just seems like we break our necks, and our budgets and the little guy doesnt get a fare shake. Ive seen what we charge for depredation and for habitat stamps and the rising cost of licenses, the loss of hunting ground every year and the ever falling deer numbers. Its a shame. I have been to at least 1000 programs for habitat improvement on public ground and have seen hundreds concerned sportsmen and only a dozen outfitters there giving back, but rest assured come that fall they will not hesitate to show up. I aplaude the few that help.

Dex
 
"Hey, where do I get one of those packs!!!!"

mmwb-thats the "Imahoe resident sportsmans pack"

Just move to Idaho, become a resident, live with our lower than average wages and you can get the same deal! Compared to the $7.5 I spent to see a crappy movie last week the hunting is a tremendous bargain.
 
The whole land owners system is crap and many ranchers are greedy but I would probably do the same if I were in their shoes.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-06 AT 04:35PM (MST)[p]The way landowners have taken advantage of this type of thing is absurd. It happens in every state that provides landowner tags. However, you can't really blame most of them. Given the opportunity, I'm sure most would do the same thing. Also, the blame needs to lie with the game departments who have allowed this to happen. When a law is created to benefit few, they will no doubt take complete advantage of it any way they can. I am currently taking advantage of a very little known hunting law myself, that I'm sure many would not agree with, but it is ALLOWED, therefore it happens. If any one is to be bitched at for any of this, it needs to be directed toward those who have created the laws that allow this to happen. Sure the landowners/ranchers/farmers pushed for this to happen, yet I'm sure it was a few who were able to get the benefit for all.
 
"with our lower than average wages" ...and state income tax. If I couldn't live in Wyoming, Idaho or Montana would be my next choices, but am happy to stay where I am.
 
Wyoming or Montana would be about the only other places I would pick. Maybe a spot or 2 in the dakotas. But like you, for now I'm pretty happy to stay in good old Imahoe.
 
Ok, lots of conversation. How come noone is talking about the fact that a landowner is given tags for their deeded land that they can sell for literally thousands of dollars. Why is it that the huge tracts of grazing lease-land (blm and forest) cost the same guy pennies compared to what they are compensated in tags?

Why is private grass worth so much more than public?

I think they should be compensated at the same rate as they pay for OUR grass. The Game Department could take any leftover monies and put it into habitat improvement, access or whatever.

Dex, I can't quite figure out who you are, but you have alot of inside knowledge, clearly......
 
"Why is private grass worth so much more than public?"

Go get a Govt lease and try to make a living cattle ranching and you'll have the answer to your question.

Private landowners can name their price for the hunting rights, its theirs to do with as they please, if there is somebody out there that is willing to pay the price then I guess it is worth it. If you owned a ranch and had busted your ass your entire life to try and make it work you would sell the tags at whatever you could get for them.

Drum
 
Sorry Drum, I usually agree with you but not here. Its not the landowners right. The game belongs to the people. I recognize the ranchers that bust their asses every day to get by. It is a tough life, no question. That still does not justify the discrepencies in costs. You can argue they work hard and I wont disagree. That is not the point.

What I am saying is its wrong because it is SO disparate.

This whole thread is about commercialization of the sport. If it continues to become increasingly harder to go hunting, there are alot of kids out there who will never get the chance. Then their kids and so on. There needs to be equity in obtaining tags to maintain and continue the sport. Otherwise the price gets run up, the rich guy goes and mainstream hunters fall out. THAT is the danger.......
 
And who's fault is it? Sure you can blame the landowners, but as I mentioned above, if they are allowed to do it, you can only b!tch at the people/organizations who allow it to happen. They are the ones responsible for creating it, and commercializing hunting.
 
The rancher is only being compensated for the hunt opportunity and not the selling of public "game" itself. I think he definitely has the right.

T264
 
You are absolutely right.

There are two lobby groups involved here;

The cattlegrowers association and the outfitters. They are the driving force behind how the current "LOSS" (landowner tags system)was established. They are also responsible for 22% of the tags being set aside for non-residents, with 12% of those going specifically to outfitters!

How about doing away with the current system of allowing landowners tags that can be sold for huge money and the hunter can then hunt on the private or PUBLIC land. Where do the landowners get the right to profit from hunting on PUBLIC?

How about giving them all the tags they want for RANCH-ONLY. I think that would be equitable.

The only ones missing in the equation are us, the sportsmen. We have no unified voice to represent our desires.

It is clear from threads like this that we may never get enough agreement amongst ourselves to be able to present a unified sportsman's agenda.
 
If a landowner is issued a unit wide landowner voucher he has to open up his private property for all hunters. The public gets to hunt private ground and the landowner is compensated by what he receives fo the tag for any loss he sustains to his crops. Its a win/win situation.

As for private land only tags, if a landowner is issued these then the hunters have to stay on his deeded property for which the tags are issued, he cannot wander out onto public ground if there is nothing on the private. Its a crap shoot. The landowners can charge whatecer they want to charge. Whay anybody has a problem with that I will never understand.

Drum
 
The game and Fish manages for hunter opportunity, a good rancher manages for the future of the lands they are responsible for. If the public hunters start letting game and fish departments know that they are willing to cut the amount of tags and opportunity down by 75% i'm sure that the hunting situation would reverse? But then again they are not willing to make the sacraficis necessary, they would rather go on land that was managed correctly without paying and take the "States Animals"
And on the subject of the States Animals, We as ranchers have no obligation to allow them in or on our lands to eat in our alfalfa fields Corrrect?

Some of the thinking here is selfish jealousy!

Everyone wants something for nothing but they are not willing to take from themselves!

If private ranches allowed all of you to hunt the way some of you want, there would be nothing left on the public lands, and no pretection from your greed on the private, You will just go back home and say boy they sure mis managed that area, I remember when they had all kinds of animals! When we first started Killed everything, or i mean hunted there.
 
The key phrase you use is "good rancher managing for the future".

That is a minority situation. The majority of public land tags issued to landowners are because the private property does not hold consistent huntable populations of animals. yes the landowner must open his private to hunting, but that does not mean he must unlock his gates or that there are any animals there to hunt. the big draw to the "agreement" (signing to allow private tags to hunt public and vice versa) is to make more money off a private tag, period. Large ranches, over 10,000 acres, can get as many tags as they want. They do not sign the agreement and they do a great job managing the resource. The problem comes with the small holdings.

What about agreements with ranchers that allow the rancher to arbitrarily expand his tags into primitive areas because he determines there is not enough huntable trophy animals within the public lands already open to his tags? Now you have high dollar hunters with rifles impeding on primitive areas during the rut.

Selfish is the right word, wrongly applied. Greed is also correct, but also misplaced.

It is clear that there is a large number of responses coming from landowner/outfitters. I would suggest you do think this through and try to apply t to the future. The current inequities in place are becoming recognized by the mainstream and will be addressed eventually. There needs to be dialogue that benefits everyone for the long term continuation of the sport and not based in the monetary interests of a single group.
 
While i can agree with some of your statement, the fact is the public hunting on public land will only get better when the public puts and demands more of themselves for proper management.

I would not hold my breath though, What have you done for wildlife lately ? Not just you but every one! It's so easy to sit in the back seat and tell peoplewhat to do. It's another to work seven days a week and put your money and time into your passions. It is also easy to donate a little money while you hope to win a gun at a special dinner an say that you did our part. That is still not getting a group of friends together to help an area develop water? digging up buried springs etc....


The price of Landowner tags might go down if it was not for the poor hunting of the usual hunting on most public land.
 
I potsed this on another thread but it might get a few more views here...


For those of you that truly feel that private landowners are the downfall of your hunting throughout the west, let me throw this out there. The Valles Calderra in New Mexico used to be a private ranch called the Baca Ranch. It was bought by the Federal Goverment in about 2000 or 2001 for $110 million dollars. A board of trustees has taken over the mgmt of what is now the Valles Calderra. In the last 5 years the number of cattle grazing days have gone down severly, the quality of the herd dynamic of elk has also gone down and the calving success ratio has gone down to 14% which is the lowest in the entire state of New Mexico! Back when the ranch was privately owned it was managed so well that the herd dynamic would allow many bulls over 350" to be harvested in what is now 3 different sub units. In 6A, which is the western slope, you will be extremely fortunate to find that would gross 320". When the Valles Calderra was known as the Baca Ranch and privately owned it was regarded as one of the premier elk hunting destinations in the entire western United States, today units 6C is often filled as a 4th choice.
My point is that when land is privately owned it is often managed much better by the people that know it, love it and live off it because private landowners take a lot of pride in their land. Often times the public ground around these ranches have much better hunting opportunities because of this sound management. The area around the Baca Ranch benefited from this type of mgmt, the land around the Jicarilla has benefited from their mgmt tactics as well.

Before people try to place blame on the the landowners or even the Game and Fish Depts for the lack of good hunting they should look directly in the mirror and ask themselves what they have done to improve the quality of the hunting. There are a lot of guys that refuse to go home empty handed and then ##### and moan during the off season about not having the opportunity to find and take a trophy quality animal. I guess its easier to use others as scapegoats than it is to come home empty handed. I see this as a greater detriment to our sport than any of the reasons they list. I feel its a greater detriment because it is something each and every one of us can control.

Drum
 
Yes I have worked on trash cleanups, fish habitat and water guzzlers. That is part of living in Arizona where we don't allow landowner tags. We help ranchers and public land and try as best we can. You act like landowners are the only people who care about habitat and the resource which is pretty darn arrogant. It is different here since there are few private ranches big enough to wad a shotgun. Different in NM. My advice with the growth of population and hugger groups who want to take away the entire leasing system is to think about the hunting community as a resource and partnership before the pressure builds to change your private and outtfitter preference system and you lose it all. How many of the allotted cow tags did you sell and allow hunters to use? If the real issue is fence damage and water use then you should welcome all tagholders to cull animals. According to your own G&F 90% of the allotted cow tags end up not being used. Kinda tells that story.
 
I have read this thread for several days and have had a few belly luaghs from the uninformed comments made. first of all: If you are not, or have never been, a "big landowner" then please stop talking about things you know sqaut about. Secondly: Im one of the "big land owners" you keep griping about. My family has been here ranching for over 100 years, long enough that alot of the land was brought out of patend(first person to get a deed from the goverment) by my family. What we have, we have sweated for and if we choose to stop sweating then we have chose to loose what we have. Make no mistake, with "big land ownership" comes even bigger responslitys, and how we choose to pay for that is damn well are buisness. Imagine the cost of maintaning 56,000 acres every year, not as a hobby but as a way of life that several familys depend on, its a buisness with employees, a fleet of trucks trailers and other equipment, not to mention the 5000 head of cattle it raises-And thats just the begining. When somebody sells a product they sell it for what ever the market will bare, it does not matter if is lumber, stocks on the market, cars, houses, beer, or EVEN elk and deer. So why when we try this do we get the third degree? Just because this is your area of interest? What do you do for a living? How would you feel if someone questioned your way of life and how you maintained it? It was made mention that AZ doesnt get land owner tags? No but they do charge huge trespass fees on private ground, as much and more than a landowner tag here. So take away the land owner tag we'll just do the same(its what we used to do anyway) Bottom line, we charge what the market will bare not a penny more, and PRIVATE PROPERTY is exacly that.
So unless your name is on my deed and I've missed it.......
 
Son,

I would bet that given what you have said you have a fairly good concept of game management. I also know that you can get as many tags for a piece that size as you want. I am betting that you probably dont sign the agreement and have ranch only tags. Like I have said over and over, you, the large holder are not causing the issue. Relax. Take care of the game, sell tags have fun.
I am worried about the system that allows the private holders to sell tags and profit from the hunting of game on public ground. Doesn't that even sound wrong?
 
point of fact, we recieved 18 tags in total and have chose to hunt 9, as far as deer are concerned, we may hunt 2. We could have easily sold all of the tags but just like are cattle and ranch we choose to manage for the long hall.
The proof is in the pudding- a 405 6x8 was killed during the rifle hunt, woth abow, and during archery a 337 was kiled. By the way, what Drum said about the BACA RANCH, is exacly right.
So stick that in your pipe and smoke it Lock82, or Dex, or what ever.
 
Son of the south, and Drum said it the way it is.

We have 4000 acres that we do not run Cattle in and 26,000 acres that we do. Recieve 26 elk tags in two units and take 6 elk and 7 deer on average, 1 antelope. out of all of it we rotate the cattle every three years on the 4000 acre pasture.
into the game area to keep the old growth down and get new growth in return cattle help out a lot.

We could make a ton of more money but we enjoy the cattle and animals in all respects.

After all of the heavy rains there is going to be some serious money and time spent on fence repair for all ranchers, Might be a good way to help your area rancher and gain access?

I am a business man not a rancher. The ranchers work there asses off and have a frugal way of life and enjoy there ranching life styles, with little fanfare. Great people to be around. I couldn't rope a post standing on the ground!
 

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