Keep the Tag or Turn it Back (SanJuan)

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elk2011

Guest
My friend has a SJ tag rifle and is considering turning it back , As the guys in the know on the unit seem frustrated at the size of the bulls and its getting very tough to find the 380 plus type bulls. I think its to early to tell what this year will bring.

What are your thoughts ?

I think he is crazy to turn the best tag in utah back in but he has harvested some giant bulls in the past .

Thanks for your input..
Elk2011
 
I don't care how many elk a guy has killed
When it gets to a point that you are just not happy if its not 380" or bigger.
It may be time to hang up the weapons and find something else to do
 
They're not finding all the 380+ bulls? Dang he has a rifle and here I go down there with a stick/string. Oh well it'll be a nice camping trip. If he's not gonna be happy with a 379......turn it back. There's a lot of folks out there that'd be happy to get that tag :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-11 AT 05:31PM (MST)[p]That's exactly the kind of attitude that I just can't understand about some in our sport, but everyone to his own and let him turn it back in. I can't believe someone can't be happy to kill a 350" bull, but today with a lot of people it's score, score, score!
 
If he thinks that large numbers of huge bulls will start to appear in the next 3-5 years then turn it back in. Personally I don't see anything on the horizon that tells me things will be better in 3 or even 5 years. I have watched the quality of bulls decline over the past 5 years or so in the whole state. That said, there are still plenty of great bulls out there waiting to be taken this year. For me its not a numbers or scoring game. I just have to be happy with what I kill. My choice would be to keep the tag and hunt. Just my 2 cents.
 
I agree i think he should scout the unit and kill the bigest bull he can find or better yet hire the pros on the unit they will find the big bulls. There are not many tags at all this year so it should be a great hunt ....''


Elk 2011
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-11 AT 05:40PM (MST)[p]Yeah, he would be crazy!

I talked to someone the other day about this. For math purposes i will try and keep it simple. If you don't want to follow my math, just read the first and last 2 paragraphs:)

First realize that despite good genes and good groceries, not all 8 year old bulls on the SJ will be 400". Having all the genes and alleles in the right place doesn't happen all the time, lets say it happens 5% of the time. Given that,

Lets say out of the 500 bulls on the SJ, there are 100 bulls on the SJ that are 6 years old or older and of that same group of 100 there are 20 that are 8 years or older.

Lets say out of that same group of 100, that 5% of those bulls (6-8) year old bulls have all the genes line up just right to produce 400" bulls. Now assume that some of them live on the unit where the right amount of rain didn't fall or the nutrition is slightly lacking for what ever reason conditions are not the same across the entire unit (that would make sense right?). Now lets say that only 2.5% of those bulls got what they need to grow big. So that means that out of that 100 bull group, 2-3 bulls are going to get to that 390+ class. I think this happens every year, this year there will still be 2-4 bulls killed that big, 6-8 or more that will break 380+ and so on. Does that all make sense? Just because there have not been 8 bulls killed over 390 the last 2 years and there has only been 3-4 doesn't have anything to do with quality slipping or this one's my favorite 'killing all the good genes'. Its simply a numbers game and there ARE NOT as many bulls in 2011 as there were in 2005 or 06 even 07.

What has happened on the SJ starting around 2005 is the UDWR increased the no. of bulls they killed. This because the age class in bulls harvested was increasing above set objective. They also increased the no. of cows they killed--again because the population level was passed the targeted objective. This coming off the drought years where production (that's the no. of calves being produced by the cows) also dropped. Which has all led to a few less maybe even 100 or more fewer bulls.

Its really all just a numbers game, the more bulls the more likely you are to increase the no. of 'quality' high scoring bulls in a given unit/area. The delimma is you can't increase your population to do that so you kill more cows which over time decreases the no. of bulls in the population--make sense?

So here we sit in 2011 and everyone is complaining about the quality--and not just on the SJ. Well I guess if you don't like your chances of 3-5% of killing a 400 bull turn it back in or a 10% chance of killing a 380+ bull or a 20% chance of killing a 360+ bull, yeah, turn it back in. Your chances may never increase again in your lifetime.

Its funny how we have progressed over the years, 15 years ago when we first started a 350+ bull was a great bull, now if you don't kill a 380+ bull on the SJ you are looked down upon and are viewed as some sucky hunter (or guide) because you just couldn't do it. What a sad state (literally and figuratively) we have become that its about the score and not 'the hunt'.

Here's my question to ask of your buddy, If you don't kill a 380+ bull will you feel like a failure of a hunter? Boy if guys feel like that, you should have saved all your money and gone and hunted a high fence ranch. Its hunting folks, enjoy it, make the most of it but DON'T make it all about the score.

Todd Black

Visit our YouTube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/bulls4bto?feature=mhum
 
Some nice posts here, but I'll be more blunt.

Tell your friend to turn back in the tag so someone who's not such an idiot can have a hunt of a lifetime :) :) :) :)

Cheers,
Pete
 
Turn the SOB Back!

I think I'm next in line,Right Amy?:D

For GAWDS Sakes Guys,We Got Kids on this Site,Some of them are 65 years Old!:D

I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!
:p
 
who are the guys "in the know"??? Has he been down here yet?
it's been dry down here, and the little moisture we have got the last week or so has been hit and miss across the county and unit. one side of the mountain gets a thunder head and a small storm and the other doesn't...so antler growth will probably be down, as most bulls are finishing out or done.

It's to bad your buddy is all about score instead of the Hunt. Because I don't care what Big bulls he has killed, I doubt he will have to many Hunts like a San Juan hunt...Did he not have to WORK for his big bulls....He will have to WORK for a big bull down here this year, or get really lucky. But for most guys, a HUNT that you have to work for is way more memorable and meaningful, then any other, regardless of score!

wow, well tell him I'm local and "in the know" and that he should turn it back in. Let someone who will not only value the animal no matter what it scores, but will also value the Hunt, because when the rut is on, on the San Juan, it is hard to compare it to many other units anywhere.

TJ
Monticello UT
"Buckaroo for Life"
 
Sounds like a once in a lifetime tag? Or close to? Grow sum balls...if he's worried about NOT killing a 380 bull, he should stay home and let someone that wants to hunt, do it!

Whats this world coming to? Sounds like our new generation of kids...they want everything handed to them, and expect everything in return.

Any bull is a trophy bull no matter how big it is, in my books that is.

just my 2 cents

muleyman
 
Turn it back!!! I have 18 points and could be the lucky one to get it and would love this hunt of a lifetime.

A few years back was probably his best odds for a 400 bull. With management hunts, cow hunts and now spike hunts on limited entry units the bull ratio will only keep going down as will the odds (as stated above). Does he believe next year or the next will be better odds then this year???

When I draw the SJ, I will hunt for the best bull on the mountian (370-400) but if I hunt hard and see a bull that makes me say shoot it and it ends up being a 350-360 bull I will enjoy the hunt and be very satisfied that I hunted hard and gave it my best and enjoyed it.

Sorry guys and gals, but a 350 bull is one nice bull!!!
 
Guy sounds like a slob,turn it in so someone who deserves it can draw.

"I absolutely had my head up my azz "
TOPGUN
 
I'm with C3...Sorry but the guy sounds like a plick! Turn it back and give someone that will appreciate the tag a chance!


Traditional >>>------->
 
With the numbers logic above from TB------

How will the spike harvests start to come into play? 3-5 years of killing spikes??



Robb
 
tell the poofta to turn his tag in.

avatar_2528.jpg
 
?tell the poofta to turn his tag in.?

poofta??? Ha ha ha, that's some funny Chit!

Like the majority here has said, tell the ungrateful SOB to turn the tag back in. Let someone who knows how to enjoy a hunt of a lifetime be a great memory of a lifetime.

GBA
 
The outcome of GREED & POOR MANAGEMENT are just starting to show & now we got people turning what once was the best Tag known to TARDS back because they can't handle the thoughts of a Sub 400" Bull!

GEEZUS!

WTH did I tell you all for years what was gonna happen?

I draw the line around a 350" Bull though!

The day a Guy don't have a good chance at a 350"+ Bull they can have my points & I'll say F'it!

T'wasn't me that ever wanted it this way,GREED,POOR MANAGEMENT & a bunch of TARDS screaming for an LE Permit decided this is how it should be!

I think you'll see a decent year on SJ,not like it used to be but a fair amount of 340"-370" Bulls hitting the dirt in 2011!

A couple around 400" will also be chased/harassed/hunted/killed!







For GAWDS Sakes Guys,We Got Kids on this Site,Some of them are 65 years Old!:D

I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!
:p
 
I really dont agree with the others on here, I dont think he should turn the tag back in at all. I personally think he should just hand it over to me!! cause I aint close to drawing I would love the chance to kill a 380 bull some people these days are ridiculous. maybe when I hunt it I would be happy with a 260 bull the way they keep killing the spikes and all who knows what genetics a spike will have that could be the next 400 bull but we'll never know
7mm wsm 600yrd. and closer checkmate
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-11 AT 07:51AM (MST)[p]Utah is one of the few States that allows a tag to be turned back...which is BS in my Humble Ass Opinion!

I believe that the option to turn a tag back should only be allowed in the case of death, or a severe injury...

This kind of "attitude" only adds fuel to the argument!

"You pay your nickel and take your chance"

If you consider yourself any kind of hunter!...get over it and go hunt!
 
Just do away with turning them back and the problem would be solved. However some lucky hunter would be ecstatic if he did turn it back.
 
It's called HUNTING for a reason, they kill a handfull of 380 bulls off of that unit every year and most of the time HUNTERS kill them. There are huge bulls on that unit but you should be happy with the oppertunity to hunt the best unit in the state. If the oppertunity isant good enough turn it in and go to canada and buy a 380 bull.

Shoot em till their dead
 
Turn the tag back in a let some other hunter shoot a big bull that would love to have the tag. I agree, someone who is not satisfied with something smaller than a 380 needs to find some other hobby or sport.

WIDOW_MAKER
 
I will put in my two cents worth.Been trying for 18 yrs to draw that tag. It will be a hunt of a life time. Hunters like this guy has lost the feeling of what true hunting should be.Time in the mountains with family and friends. And having the type of hunt he would remember for the rest of his life.
 
I think there are a few good ranches left for a guy like this. I saw one that had 390"-500" bulls available. He may be satisfied with that type of hunt.
 
If he's considering it then he should seriously turn it back in...will create a ton of excitement for someone else who appreciates it!!

~Z~
 
If he is gonna turn it in, he should do it here pretty quick so the next lucky hunter in line can have some time to plan for the hunt.
 
What a Piece of work, He really don't know crap about hunting, The size of a animal helps make a hunt, But it the hunt in it self that you should be going after. If you put pressure on yourself to kill the biggest bull on the moutnain you will end up hating the whole hunt specically if you don't find one big enough. Just hunt and have fun, If you can't do that PLEASE turn that Bad Boy back in so a real hunter can get that tag and do it justice.

See the post of Black Predators(Travis) trail cams.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I wasn't (going to comment) but I will........

Really?????????

If this "dude" is all about the "gawd almighty score" then he should turn it back so someone with half a brain would enjoy a once in a lifetime hunting experience on a great unit.... and a great unit!

He might be the best, hardest, badazz hunter in the world but his "all about the score" mentality makes me a bit ill. This is my biggest gripe about all the newbies. He obviously can't remember when a 300" bull was one helluva bull in Ut. Some people's kids.

BTW: Blanding_boy, I followed your math perfectly. I always appreciate your comments! It's nice to hear from a guy who really can boil down the numbers to make sense.

Zeke
 
I think it's too bad that turning the tag back is an option (except for in extreme issues that are documented - death, illness).

Agreed with the vast majority on here about what this guy should do, though. Turn it in if he's unsure about the "qualilty".

Didn't I read about another guy who turned his tag in for 3-4 years waiting for the, "right time to strike"? Gimme a break!

Get the tag and hunt hard. The experience is your reward!

GK
 
Yes turn it back in, and do not put in for Utah ever again.
He will never kill a 380 bull no matter what unit he draws.
I would be willing to put a grand on it.
 
If he hasnt already he should start hunting high fence ranch elk,sounds like it would suit him.


"I absolutely had my head up my azz "
TOPGUN
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-11 AT 07:49PM (MST)[p]First Guys .Thanks for the comments . Some were very constructive and some were full of animosity towards someone whom they have never met, in fact my friend is one of the best hunters and sportsmen i know and has done countless things to help his fellow sportsman and his community. I dont think he will turn the tag back in but he did ask what i thought and thats why asked my friends on MM. So next time you comment ,think before you attack someone you dont even know. By the way he has killed 1 bull over 400 and another in the 390s in his lifetime and they were not high fenced ranches . 100% free range..in New Mexico and Arizona. He has been waiting 20 years to hunt Utah....

Good Luck to all this season.
Elk 2011
 
Hes still a moron for considering it no matter what he has killed or how much $ he has.If hes not happy with any bull he kills on a hunt hes not a sportsman,hes a slob.

"I absolutely had my head up my azz "
TOPGUN
 
Elk2011

So what exactly were you expecting to hear when you bait with that topic on this Forum? Of course all we know is what you posted. Are we supposed to bow down to your "friend" or were you expecting to report back to him that indeed there are 7 bulls over 400 this year in SJ so the odds are good for him to hunt it.

I'll stand by my previous post. I guess it's just a case of "haters gonna hate" but you asked for it....

GK
 
What would make him think that the Bulls are going to get any bigger in coming years. Just the opposite from what I head.
 

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