Will the calf survive?

blazingsaddle

blazingsaddle

Active Member
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I got to thinking about this over the weekend:
During the Utah archery elk hunt in mid August, if given the chance to shoot a cow that has a calf with it, would you? Or would you shoot the calf, or neither?
Are the calves old enough to survive with out mothers at this point in the year?

I know at least one of the cows I have shot, the milk glands were full of milk during this time of year. If I could pick a dry cow that would be my first choice, but some times the opportunity is only one cow with a calf.
 
It's sad they would even give the opportunity in mid August. It's completely irresponsible. I highly doubt an orphaned calf would survive so you might as well kill it too. It's not difficult to require antlerless tags in October and beyond.
 
The calf in August has a far better chance of survival than the fetus in the cow on a Dec. hunt.

Just saying.


Elk are very social and the calf should be weened by that time so the rest of the herd can help it out.

alpinebowman

>>>---shots that are true pass right through--->
 
If I even think the cow has a yearling with her, she will walk. There will be plenty of oppertunity for one not caring for young. I would never shoot a calf.
 
The calf will probably survive. If it doesn't then the tag #'s will be adjusted to compensate for the loss if theres an impact on the population objectives. It's a renewable, consumable resource Zigga not a fricken Walt Disney production..... Terry
 
I don't know if it's a big difference or not with calf?s but our cow archery hunt in Az. is in September during the rut along with the bull hunts. I have seen a cow with a calf taken out and the next day the calf is with the same herd mingling and feeding right along with them. I would say Fish and Game would know it's a good chance for calf survival or they wouldn't have the season open until the rut or after. My neighbors sons first archery elk was a calf. Calf?s are great eating.

GBA
 
Some say August/Sept is too early for the calf and anytime after the rut in Sept is too late for the fetus! Sounds like we have zero opportunity to make a disney film of the hunt.

PS: I liked your comments Terry!

Zeke
 
Why shoot the cow? She is a proven, productive breeder, and an important part of the herd. The cow is experienced, and knows where to find winter feed, and how to avoid predators. Shoot the calf, it will taste better, and will most likely be replaced next spring. If you want more meat (quantity), please search out a dry cow.

I read a nice article in BUGLE a few years back about this topic and it made a lot of sense to me. I wish I could find it and post it here.
 
Ive heard that a cow will take an orphaned calf in if its mom has been killed. Not sure how true it is but I think the calf may survive cause hell just stay with the herd.
 
These are all factors that should be taken into consideration when managing an area for elk numbers. Hopefully those in charge of the management in your area know what they're doing when they decide on the number of tags.
Although from what I've seen most calves are weaned naturally by the end of august. I imagine they'd be just fine if they were weaned a few weeks early.
 
Why does anybody even shoot a cow elk..?? I've never umderstood it, and I still don't get it...


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
If the tag says you can harvest a cow, I would take the cow. The range biologist understands heard health/ carrying capacity of the local land. Mortality ratios are part of this, both adult and calf.

The calf will live.
Unless it was conceived to late. Two basic possibilities as to why this occurred. First, the cow was not covered when she came 'in' and was covered 30 or 60 days later when she re-ovulated. In this case the birth ratio, (50/50,male/female) needs to be adjusted, hence Cow tags are issued. Or, the Cow genetically ovulates late, hence that DNA needs removed from the heard.

Either way: don't ever feel bad about shooting a cow. They eat just fine!
 
You guys have way too much faith in your biologist. I've taken part in field surveys where they couldn't tell the difference between muleys and whitetails or deer and elk for that matter. They may have also been mistakenly counting livestock. I always wondered why they had biology students from Virginia taking part in the surveys.

I've seen calves nurse in April for God's sake. They are not weaned the end of August. Why in the hell would you even think of killing a calf in August or September? WOW! Do they even weigh a hundred pounds?

You guys scare me sometimes.
 
I would shoot a cow if the calf looked big enough. 200 lb calf is pretty tiny. I can recall ever seeing a dead calf in the hills Sept. to Dec.
 
There is a big difference between needing milk and drinking milk. Just because a cow allows a calf to nurse doesn't mean the calf needs it. Why shoot a cow or a calf? better to manage numbers and get good use out of the animal than have them winter kill or die on the highways of the winter range.
 
My dad shoots the calf every time if he has the chance! he says its easier to recover and better eating.
 
The issue is orphaning a calf in AUGUST which brings us to the issue of having a healthy herd. They don't always herd up and share teats to other calves that need one.

It may be legal but why can't hunters wait until late October when the calves actually have some meat on them for the most part?

I need to see pics of some of your August calf hunts from some of you lucky calf hunters. This should be sad but let's see them anyway.
 
Looks like we have opposing opinions here.
I would think the calf would survive, but I'm no expert.
As I said before, I would try for a dry cow, but when bowhunting, that could be very difficult depending on the situation. Having said that, if its legal, I would shoot a calf too.
In my eyes the point of antlerless hunts is to cull the herd, meaning they have too many animals and they want them gone.
 
That's exactly why they have cow/calf hunts and why Wyoming even has what they call "reduced price cow/calf" hunts in areas that are really overpopulated. It's better they be taken out and eaten by us than go to waste when there isn't enough winter range to properly graze the entire herd properly and they die of starvation.
 
> I always wondered
>why they had biology students
>from Virginia taking part in
>the surveys.

Because they are free labor!

And you are correct; there is a huge difference between book smart and field savvy! It's a shame!

>I've seen calves nurse in April
>for God's sake.

I owned a beef cow that would nurse if another would let it. After four years of that- she went to the feed yard!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-11 AT 01:41PM (MST)[p]Neither!


Government doesn't fix anything and has spent trillions proving it!!!
Let's face it...After Monday and Tuesday, even the calender says WTF!
 
Here are the facts according to me:

There are certain elk populations which are over objective (too many elk).

The F&G depts do a great job, by-in-large. They have made some mistakes so thank goodness wildlife is a renewable resource.

The F&G will issue permits and they will be for a specific time and someone will buy them and the hunt will go on. Most of the seasonal timing, quantity, sex, etc is out of our control.

The only question is WHO will have the tag. A few of you are totally against a cow hunt and would not dream of going on one. Good for you, although your priciples are somewhat flawed. Someone else will participate in your place while you watch Tiffany.

We'd all rather shoot 190" bucks or 360" bulls but the tags are a bit hard to come by so there's nothing wrong with a cow hunt every once in a while. I know I'll be involved in couple cow hunts with 2 of my daughters this year. It should be fun and challenging for them.

Anyone with a different view will be castigated.

Zeke
 
LMAO off Zeke? Good one!

One more thing to add?Did I mention the cow Archery Elk hunt in Az. is during the rut!?! There is no more a better time out in the field hunting elk IMO than during the rut even if it's after a cow. Cows are sometimes more of a challenge than say a satellite bull by himself. It's legal, they taste awesome, your helping in setting objectives and don't yuck my yum!! Ha ha ha LOL!!

Zeke, good luck to your daughters! Please post up pic's and a story when the hunt is over.


GBA
 
+1..... I'd rather be out in the field in the game with a cow tag than sitting on the sidelines with a bonus point for years on end waiting for that one special tag to come my way.... Good Luck to your daughters Zeke!!.... Terry
 
+1 Zeke, couldn't have said it better.

However, you know you are calling down the wrath of REDROCK on you now too! You know he will come up with some "I ride the little bus" nick name for you too HE HE!!

I totaly agree with you and though the cow hunt is not for everyone, it is a tag, it is a hunt, it is a fun time with friends family etc. and it puts excelent venison in the freezer.

Someone will have the tag and I am glad that this year it is me instead of someone else to have my Manti cow tag. I personaly will not shoot a calf, that is my choice but if other choose to, more power to them. I will not think any less of them.

Good luck to everyone with a tag!
 
Shoot the calf. Nothing eats better then then Veal style elk. My goal on a "cow" hunt is to shoot the smallest one in the herd. They taste the best and are the easiest to recover. IMO
 
>Shoot the calf. Nothing eats
>better then then Veal style
>elk. My goal on
>a "cow" hunt is to
>shoot the smallest one in
>the herd. They taste
>the best and are the
>easiest to recover. IMO


In August?
 
Make sure You all apply for a f'n Spike Tag in an LE Unit while you're at it!



For GAWDS Sakes Guys,We Got Kids on this Site,Some of them are 65 years Old!:D

I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!
:p
 
That's right. Real men only shoot the biggest trophies and nothing less. Who cares about the health of the herd as long as there are some trophies and everyone goes home empty unless it's a trophy. Forget about your freezer. A cow or calf may not be your idea of a trophy but it's better than sitting home since where in Utah are you going to find a trophy elk with a bow without a LE tag? 1 in 10,000 hunters maybe. I ate my SJ tag chasing the trophy and now I'll eat spike or cow given the chance since I'll never get a trophy tag again in my lifetime.
 
Well birdbuster?

Tell me you couldn't of took a decent Bull on SJ?

You get Greedy or what?

You set your goal at 400"+?

Or what?

For GAWDS Sakes Guys,We Got Kids on this Site,Some of them are 65 years Old!:D

I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!
:p
 
Sorry utahbigcow been gone for a few days but now I'm back. Gotta love them cow hunters. I think they would shoot there own mother if they would sell a permit for it. (aka Redrock)
 
Well B_BOP there were a variety of circumstances that hurt my SJ hunt Not the least of which was my work making me go to Chicago losing the last week of the hunt. I also basically hunted alone. No scouts, no callers, no nobody. I also didn't spend 14 years applying to hunt with the crowd so I probably hunted less productive areas that I could have to myself. My bar was set at a reasonable 340 depending on where the points come from. Score means little to me as I've guided trophy hunts for years and seen 350ish bulls that were way better than some 370's. I chased a bull I liked for 3 days. I passed up a 75 yard shot on my last evening that was open but I'd drawn the line at 60. Just me I guess.
 
Anyone that makes statements about not shooting does or cows when the herd is at or over max carrying capacity in an area haven't the slightest idea of game biology and how it works IMHO.
 
Topgun tell me anywhere in the state of utah that the doe population is to high. You can't cause we are not even close to where we should be. It's you guys that listen to dwr that don't know anything. All they want is the money. WAKE UP AND LOOK AROUND.
 
I hear ya bird but damn!

Even work should be understanding & let you hunt on that Tag!

I give you credit bird for not taking a shot you were not comfortable with!

There's help around bird,ya gotta speak up though!

For GAWDS Sakes Guys,We Got Kids on this Site,Some of them are 65 years Old!:D

I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!
:p
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-11 AT 06:46PM (MST)[p]Horsecorn---Look and see if you can find anywhere that I mentioned Utah in my post! I specifically stated where the herds are at or above carrying capacity and I never mentioned any spots where they are or aren't! Incidentally, I live in Michigan and even though I'm looking around I can't see to Utah, so I know nothing about your state's herds. I suggest you work on your reading comprehension before you spout off!!!
 
It's been pretty tough to swallow B_BOP. I'm old enough that I'll never get a LE elk tag again. I love elk more than any other critter and it's pretty much over for life for a chance at a good one. I can't even watch a video without getting depressed. This is the first year I've picked up a bow in the 3 years since and that will probably be to just try and get some meat in the freezer so these guys can talk down to me as a spike/cow hunter.
 
There are a lot of people in the same boat as you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting cows or calfs. I've never seen anybody eat a horn !!!!!

If people want to shoot nothing but bulls cool but they shouldn't mouth off about others people's approach to hunting.

My guess is in almost every case a calf will survive if it's healthy in the first place and it's mother is taken. Elk are very gregarious and nursing cows will accept an orphan.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-11 AT 10:17PM (MST)[p]Open mouth insert wanker again there cornhole.

TOPGUN, this is obviously your first run in here with cornhole. You need to take it easy on him. He rides the little bus and thinks that everyone hunting cows is only hunting in the basin because that is the only herd the DWR issues tags for in the country, and they hunt the way he has mabey seen one person do it in the basin. It's not his fault, the little bus just got the funding back and will be able to take him to his local library for his alloted computer time but thats as far as it goes. He is still stuck in the basin. He has no clue whats going on outside of his specail person world in the basin.

He came on here in his very first post to this site as "redrock" calling a guy a "Fu(k!ng antlerless hunter" because they guy posted he was happy to draw a cow tag. High class fellow sportsman there eh? Someone like that obviously rides the little bus TOPGUN.

Cornhole, I love ya man!
utahbigcow
 
Cow hunts provide a number of opportunity for hunters. Including meat, a good time with friends and family, and a great way to introduce our youth, to the outdoors. I see no harm in shooting cows. But to answer the op question, I believe the calf has a high percentage chance of survival.
 
Biologically speaking, an elk calf is weaned in 60 days. A calf should be fine with the rest of the herd without it's mother.

".....but by God, I never said a word to a pig!"
 
Lots of opinions flying around but does anyone have some hard facts? Are there any biologist that are on here?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-11 AT 07:41AM (MST)[p]Here ya go and from what it says they should be able to survive with the herd after they are weaned at two months of age. They are going to be a lot older than that if their mama dies during even an early season hunt.


Reproduction and life cycle of Elk

Female elk have a short estrus cycle of only a day or two, and matings usually involve a dozen or more attempts. By the autumn of their second year, females can produce one and, very rarely, two offspring, although reproduction is most common when cows weigh at least 200 kilograms (440 lb). The gestation period is 240 to 262 days and the offspring weigh between 15 and 16 kilograms (33 and 35 lb). When the females are near to giving birth, they tend to isolate themselves from the main herd, and will remain isolated until the calf is large enough to escape predators. Calves are born spotted, as is common with many deer species, and they lose their spots by the end of summer. Manchurian wapiti may retain a few orange spots on the back of their summer coats until they are older. After two weeks, calves are able to join the herd, and are fully weaned at two months of age. Elk calves are as large as an adult white-tailed deer by the time they are six months old. The offspring will remain with their mothers for almost a year, leaving about the time that the next season's offspring are produced. The gestation period is the same for all subspecies.
 
What we try to do on a cow elk hunt is take the oldest cow possible. A cow that is no longer a value to the herd. The meat is still good tasting.

But back to your question...

The calf will survive but will stay near the dead mother until the hunters come to recover. Pretty sad.
 
Elksniper, I have never witnessed that before. I have seen two cows taken down that had calf?s and the calf?s didn't stick around but I guess I could that happening. As for the older cows, If they aren't the lead cow then I would agree, but you shoot that smart ole lead cow the next one in line might not be so smart and get her herd in trouble, hopefully when she blunders her herd into me. :)

GBA
 
I suspect it could happen that way but the few cows which I've seen killed, I can assure you NONE of the herd stayed around. These were bow killed elk too. But, I've yet to see it all since I'm learning all the time! haha

Zeke
 
2009 I kill a calf 437 yards.. Last day of the season, when I started to debone to my surprise a little bull only months old.. I knew he was small, I watch him for 10 min or so before I shot, hoping mom would show herself...

That little guy was good eating and very little work packing out.. Make no mistakes about it, if she would have shown herself it would of been her that filled the freezer that year..
 
I've actually seen that happen one time when a cow was shot out of a herd by a guy and the next day I was back in that area and a poor calf was all over the area by itself bawling and trying to find it's mother. It was rather sad to see, but I'm sure it joined the herd again and was fine later on though. Many years ago I also saw a late born whitetail fawn that still had some spots in early November up in northern Michigan doing the same thing. I don't know whether it's mother had been shot or had run her off when she was getting ready to breed again that Fall.
 
I have seen a lot of little bulls calf?s out on their own during the rut hunts. I have witness big bulls actually gore the crap out of a bull calf trying to stay with its momma. The bulls will push them out of the herd and the calf?s will stay on their own until after the rut. Those have been my observations over the years.

I laugh when I see it but I guess the big bulls see them as competition.

GBA
 
When the breeding instinct takes over in most species the little ones better look out. A boar bear will kill the yearling ones in a heartbeat if they are in the area when their mother is coming into estrus the next time.
 
I dont worry about whether the calf will survive. If I have the chance the calf will have my tag on it! Most calf elk by the last week in august will be as big as a mature buck deer.
I have killed and eaten a few calf elk and IMO it is the best game meat available. I no longer have to feed the family so I go for quality over quantity. I also offer no apologies to anyone who condemns shooting antlerless game animals as long as it is legal.

P.S. Zeke, I have a 6-pack of calf elk steaks thawed out..you interested?
 
Do we hunt for other people and what they think and or believe, or do we hunt for ourselves and families?
If your fine with shooting a calf then shoot it, I have. And it was by far some of the best meat I have EVER ate, wildgame or store bought.
And as for as not hunting anterless what are we supposed to do not shoot anything but big bulls and we can all sit around for 20 to 25 years holding hands and singing Kumbaya, drinking kool aid, eating mystery meat from Micky Dees while waiting for our once in a lifetime big bull tag.
 
Just keep shootin every-=f'n-thing!

Cows!

Cow Calves!

Bull Calves!

Spikes!

Don't forget the dwr's age objective Bulls!

Shoot all the Cows because some Dumb Ass says there is too many of them!

Then when You've shot the SShit out of the Cows for Years,start slaughtering Bulls because now there are too many Bulls for the number of Cows!

GEEZUS!

Just kill em all & get it over with!

For GAWDS Sakes Guys,We Got Kids on this Site,Some of them are 65 years Old!:D

I don't care if they're big or small!
If they throw lead I like em all!
:p
 
Man, you guy's are more entertaining than the mule deer guy's.
Question for TOPGUN, I am not an avid Elk hunter as I like you are from the east, OH excuse me, we are "easterner's" to the cowboy's, but I have some friends that own 30,000 acres in Unit 2 Colorado. An area known for having GOBB'S of elk, since they have owned the land the G&F dept has given (I think)them Many, Many cow tag's which they sell and fill, surprising enough the cow #'s are down, but so are the bull #'s, anybody on here ever wonder about the percentage of bull calves being killed compared to cow calves, and what future damage to the bull herd there could be by killing what we suspect is a high # of bull calves being killed? I know Unit 2 has far more bull's than cow's, and it is managed by giving out very few bull tag's, that is why it was somewhat alarming to me to here that the bull #'s are down.
I guess I am opening this question up to anyone, TOPGUN just seemed to have more fact's and less emotion involved. However my two cent's, no problem shooting a cow, but wont shoot a calf, just that it is bread into me being from WI.
 
booner76---Whenever you have an either sex license involved it is obviously easy to decide whether you want to fill it with the female persuasion or not. As you mentioned with a doe/fawn or cow/calf tag, it is difficult a lot of times to differentiate between the sex of the young animal. That is normally taken into consideration when those tags are issued if the F&G biologists are doing their job properly, the higher ups are listening, and politics doesn't get involved. I have no statistics on breeding of ungulates and how many does or cows are bred by one male. I do know pheasant statistics though and when numbers are down in areas I hear cries from guys to cut the season for a year or two to let the populations build back up. That really is crazy because only cocks are normally killed and it has been proven many times that 90% of the cocks can be taken from a population and the ones remaining can rebuild their numbers back in just one year. I do question some of these seasons the guys are talking about when they are shooting cows, calves, and even have spike seasons in some units. If the biologists are not on top of things, I would think that could screw up a population real fast. From some of the posts on these Forums here, it sounds like a lot of the guys feel that is happening in Utah due to an irresponsible bunch of dummies in their F&G Department!!!
 
In my dumb uneducated opinion, I would say very few bull calves are shot each year. My bet would that most cow hunters shoot for older cows and leave the calves alone? But quite a few 2 year old bulls are shot here in Utah as spikes, as its quickly becoming the new "for sure tag" Hundreds of people that don't draw their deer tags are buying and hunting spikes.
In the the end no matter how you slice it, a dead young bull will NEVER be a mature bull to be counted in the heard.
 
I do really question these spike hunts the guys are talking about a lot more than shooting cows. It would seem the justification would have to be that there are more males than females in the population, but that seems far fetched to me.
 
The spike tags are capped. The cow tags are capped. The trophy bull tags are capped and the units are divided so to promote consumption of the "over objective" elk.

I think it's always a balance act, for the F&G, to have enough harvest to make the meat boys happy and enough big bulls to make the trophy boys happy. In the end it seems nobody's happy! LOL

We will always hear "the sky is falling" because a few spikes are killed or a bull calf or a bunch of cows. If this is true then maybe we'll have more deer!

I can tell you that the BIG bulls are still there. I've spent more than a few days scouting, this year, and I know what I'm seeing. Lots of elk, lots of bulls, lots of 320+ bulls and a few spikes. Seems pretty usual to me. We're not in the toilet yet.

Zeke

Dislaimer: this applies to UT. I have no idea about things "back east"...... like Colorado! LMAO!
 
Zeke, I guess I don't understand how the Cow or Spike hunts are capped. I thought they were and OTC tag?? Is it a first come first serve thing until all the tags are gone? Here in Az. we have a drawing for all elk hunts. There is no over the counter tags for elk, there is no just spike hunt either. Our bonus point system is the same for bull or cow as well so if you put in and get drawn for cow you're going to lose your bonus points that are accumulated every year for not getting drawn. This is what I can see as population control where as OTC tags are not unless they are only set up for a certain amount of tags as a first come first serve. By the way, our tags are 125.00 plus application fee for either sex as well.

GBA
 
You are right on track.

The spike tags are OTC yet they have a cap. Buy 'em 'til they're gone. There are specific units, or areas, in which these tags are valid. The success rate is right around 5%, as I recall.

These are opportunity hunts, NOT high success hunts. We have really enjoyed these hunts because we always see the BIG bulls that are still on the mountain AFTER the trophy bull hunts. We've managed to take a few over the years but it's far from a "take" hunt.

Zeke
 
I don't remember about the archery tags caps, if any.

Someone knows though or we can look it up.

Zeke
 
Archery Elk = Either Sex, No Cap, State Wide


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 

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