Why shoot small bucks

C

canhunter

Guest
I like this site for some of the information that is discussed about all aspects of hunting. It would appear most are after large quality deer, or would shoot a large deer if given a opportunity. I see quite a few people shooting young or very small bucks out of trophy special draw areas. Many of these areas a doe could be shot or another area very close a doe could be shot. Some say they are shooting for meat, last day, had to get a kill, etc. Why would you shoot a little dinker buck that has the potential to be a trophy in a year or even several years? Obviously the person knew the area was being developed or used as a trophy unit or they would not have put in for the special permit. Just seems by shooting a small or immature buck the hunters are doing exactly opposite what the game agency is trying to do. I know it may be legal but this question is more along the moral or quality improvement side. Only my view, but any responses with a reasonable response would help me maybe understand why.
 
Part of me is a "A trophy is in the eye of the beholder" guy when it comes to first time hunters or inexperienced hunters. And part of me is "Don't shoot anything you won't put on the wall" guy when it comes to my hunting as well as experienced hunters.
But to answer your question, one reason someone might shoot a small buck out of a trophy unit is because they are a non-resident that has put in for 8+ years and this will be the only hunt they will go on. It comes down to the last day, and they want to take something home to show for the hunt. Just speculating, but I've been in that situation before, and that is what I have done, that little buck looks great on my wall too. :)

Lien2
 
Lien, I do understand a youth first time hunter. I know some may say being a trophy only hunter my views are biased towards only mature bucks. I apply for special tags for my kids also, but for the permit only mature deer will be taken. Just my belief and help in building or maintaining an area for quality animals. We hunt other non-permit areas where any buck or restricted antler size just for getting a deer. Not a doe fan as there is no challenge at all to shoot one even with a bow. Will take one out of need by the agency to reduce numbers but again only to improve the quality of the bucks/herd.
 
In three years the forked horn they killed would have been a pretty nice buck, but the medium sized four point that didn't get killed because they tagged the little one will be a stud!
Just a little Devil's advocate for ya to ponder...
Granted, shooting nothing would be optimum.
Different strokes...
HH
 
Here we go again.

I shot a small buck this year on the last evening of my hunt. Why? Because to me anything is a trophy. Most people say that hunting has become nothing but focussed on trophy animals. With posts like this, its hard to deny that. Since when is hunting all about the size? Sure, I too would shoot the biggest of any that were standing together. But I also shoot small ones for the meat. But I guess I'm not a very moral hunter if I do that huh? After all, there is absolutely no challenge in shooting anything that doesn't have trouble lifting its head because of all the growth on it.






It's Bush's fault!!!
 
logo1.gif
 
No offense Scott,
It is just that you are barking up the wrong tree.
People come to this site to see great trophy animals and to share their hunts and experiences.
There are some incredible animals posted here every year.
On the other hand, they are just a very small portion of what the members of Monster Muleys take each year.
I have plenty of smaller buck in my rafters too.
I've never shot a buck that I would call a monster.
Good ones, yes but it is that challenge of possibly seeing one that keeps me going back.
With experience comes skill and a certain satisfaction in passing up a smaller buck in search of a trophy.
People hunt for many reasons, one type of hunter is certainly no better that the other, you just cannot pop on a site called "Monster Muleys" and lambaste the membership for being trophy oriented.
HH
 
HH,
I agree. That was not the intentions of my post. Sorry. I too search for a trophy every year. In fact I missed a good deer earlier in the season. That's why I shot the small one on the last day. I guess the bottom line of what I'm saying is that regardless of what someone shoots, it can still be a trophy. I would consider myself a trophy hunter, to an extent. If I don't find the big one by the end of the hunt, I'll shoot whatever I can. I know many don't agree with that, as can be seen with other posts a couple months ago. The reason I asked about hunting becoming about size only, on this website, is because half the people here say the trophy is in the eye of the beholder, and others say if its not so big, it should not be shot. So which is it?







It's Bush's fault!!!
 
I to agree trophy is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen several hunters shoot a deer and seemed happy with it until they had it scored and it scored less than what they had hoped. This tends to upset me, what does it matter what it scored? I do not think you should base your happiness or the outcome of your hunt on a score? Hunting should not be about a score on a piece of paper. People tend to bash someone who shot a small deer "should have let it get bigger", "not a challenge to shoot a forked horn". But if someone shoots a 30" buck that ran across the road, then it is "good job", "wonderful deer", etc. Yes it is a wonderful deer, but I would feel better about hiking in 5 miles, putting a sneak on a small or medium buck and making a nice shot than shooting a huge buck from the side of the road. Where is the challenge in that? The sense of accomplishmnet? Yes you were lucky to come across a rare trophy but that animal deserved to be hunted, not shot from the road. The hunt is not about antler size but the overall experience and accomplishment. Paper scores are just that, scores on paper that someone else decided on what makes a good animal. Scores are for exams, not the outcome of a hunting trip.

Just my thoughts.

Joe
 
Scott, I really don't see your point. Do you eat venison? Do you not like it? If not then you shouldn't hunt. There really is no arguement for pursuing antlers only. While every born hunter can apprecitate a big buck, it should only be a part of your hunting goals. If you don't respect the animal enough to feel the need to use every last piece as food for a primary goal, then you priorities are skewed. My nephew saw a buck I had on the wall and got all jazzed up to go hunting when we were having dinner with my sister and said he "wanted to go shoot a deer". I got really serious and asked if he had ever eaten deer, he said no. I said, FIRST -you have deer some time. THEN, you decide if you like it. THEN you hunt. I've worked my ass off four times harder for a forky some years, then the biggest buck I've shot. THAT is the value in harvesting a small deer -you EARNED your food the hard way.
-D
 
I believe the question was why would someonetry to draw a quality unit and then shoot a small deer.True a trophy is in the eye of the beholder, but if there are other areas someone could shoot a meat deer why do it in the supposed quality area. People shoot these young deer and then wonder why there are no large bucks.I dont really think people nowadays really need to hunt for the meat, maybe a few but if you really need meat I think it is a lot cheaper at the grocery store. I have hunted for over fifty years and have never shot the little bucks, you cant kill the good bucks if you keep shooting the young ones. I grew up hunting in California where most people shoot the first buck they see, and then wonder why they could never kill a nice buck.Most Cal hunters never even see a 4pt, buck let alone kill one because of this. They are there but you cant kill them if you keep sooting forked horns. I also enjoy the taste of wild meat but this is not the main reason I hunt.
 
Joe, I totally agree with your comment about the hiking in compared to shooting one that crosses the road. Score is not as important as a quality mature animal to me. Would I shoot a 30" buck that crosses the road in front of me? Yes, but no bragging or showing it off. We don't have many true 30" deer where I hunt. I would also shoot a stud 3 point standing next to a "minimum" shooter 4 point. I am only asking about people choosing to shoot a immature buck in a trophy area instead of a doe or not shooting anything. Sorry if this has been hashed it was just a observation from looking at the posts and pictures.
 
-I meant to say Jose, not Scott.

Bigmoosie, if you know deer genetics, a 18" two point muley could be a ten year old deer that has regressed. It could also be a 41/2 year old deer that has inferior genetics. All good reasons to cull from the herd and again, as I stated, whether it's a draw unit or not, you just can't eat the horns. Many of us do not have the time off to hunt a permit area, then turn around and go look for a doe someplace, which in Wa.. you would need a 2nd special permit draw for anyways -not likely. The game department understands full well when they allocate the amount of tags for a special draw area, that there could be a good number of bucks of any legal age-class harvested. They do allow for that chance, it's not as though if a few younger bucks are harvested there will be no mature bucks the following year. They base the tag allotments on ALL age classes of bucks, not just mature bucks, to allow for that possibility. They do not automatically assume all draw hunters will go out and drop a six point, that's just not a realistic scenario. A bio in Wa.. I have spoken with many times about his draw area he has managed for 15 years told me recently that actually, the main problem in his draw area has been no mature bucks carrying over to the next season, only 1-3 points because of too much harvest of big bucks in the draw, you are likely to get only an average buck if drawn that is why they cut tags back for that area. The only issue that would ever effect your quality hunt in a draw area is too many tags issued, as far as bigger bucks being available, not the shooting of a few smaller bucks, that would just leave more mature bucks in the escapement for next year if the amount of tags issued was within agency harvest goals....
 
From one who has hunted many moons, it is much easier to walk away from a small buck on the last day, if you have previously harvested many. Sometimes just hunting hard enough to actually take an animal is reason enough to pull the trigger...even in a trophy area. On my first limited entry hunt, many years ago, I took a small buck on the last day because after hunting that long and hard I couldn't imagine my wife would understand the expense and effort, if I didn't come home with something.
At this stage in my life, however, I would definitely pass up that buck.
We all have our own motives for hunting and thankfully, we are all free to choose! None of us have the right to judge or tell another how to do it as long as we are legal!
 
Disagreeing is a little different then "judging". And all of us as you say are entitled to our own view. In Wa.. there are no hunts listed as "trophy hunts" because that is just not WDFW's mentality. They view a "quality hunt" as one with; limited competition, a good number of 3 point or better legal animals and a season during the rut. All of which are very hard to find in this State during regular seasons. I don't believe other Western States are that different in management philosophy, but again everyone interperets things differently. If only mature bucks were shot everywhere and no smaller bucks, believe me hunting would decline in a hurry with the pressure put on game. You should thank the guys who harvest the "meat bucks" so there are more "trophy's" for you to chase. On any given range there are generally more small bucks then 41/2 -12 year old mature bucks, why would you be upset if more older age class bucks are available to harvest the next season? Isn't that what a trophy hunter is after? I guess I don't understand the dilemma....
 
I've hunted an area where a respectable 140-160 4 point is very obtainable with just a little effort, yet there are alot of 2 and 3 points hanging from the meat pole. To each his own! I'd rather them shoot those bucks than the 160-180 bucks that can be a super buck by the next year. Just my thoughts.

Mike
 
In Nevada all areas are draw only. I can get a tag in an easy area about 2 out of 3 years for the most part. I hunt hard, generally seem some decent bucks, but never get a chance to seal the deal on a good buck. I have eaten tags also in years past aiming for a good buck, and not seeing what I liked, and passing on opportunities on smaller bucks. This year, I got a small forkie. I had 6 days to hunt total, and really that was 3 Saturdays and 3 Sunday mornings, and 12 hours driving each weekend for training. I hunted hard, but this buck presented himself, so he ended up in my freezer. Pretty good eating too, I might add. I guess it just depends on how much time I have to hunt. If I can get a tag next year and take 5 days of vacation to hunt, I am sure I will hold out again for a good buck. It just depends on the circumstances of the particular hunt that determine what I shoot. Too much is placed on the score in my opinion, and less emphasis on the hunt itself and other reasons for having the opportunity to hunt in the first place.

Later,

Marcial
 
The original post was applied to LE units, not general areas. What cracks me up is the 'meat' hunters feeling justified in ridiculing 'trophy' hunters, but get all bent when the tables are flipped. It goes both ways folks, if you dont want to be bashed for killing Bambi, dont bash me for letting him wean off his momma before I take him down. Why do 'meat' hunters feel like they are 'truer' hunters because they slam the first buck/bull that walks out? If you have that mentality DONT appliy for Limited Entry units.
 
the reason people shoot those smaller bucks in the special draw units is because the "average" deer hunter rarely shoots a buck, maybe only once every couple of years at best. Success rates in general draw units are only in the low 20% range usually, so statistically, it that would be about one deer every 5 yrs, or so.

So, if you have hunted for fifteen years, and shot 3 deer in your life, and you get into a special draw, there are many times lots of bucks running around. For most people to be able to mentally pass up small bucks, they need to have harvested more than three. So, they take a buck, and they are usually very happy about it. I don't see anything wrong with this at all because it leaves a more mature buck alive; which leaves a bigger buck for the tropy hunter who draws the unti next year. I would agree with dman that if everybody went into a specail draw unit and held out for a mature buck, the special draw wouldn't be as "special"....it is kind of like the concept of the 2 point or less restrictions
 
D-Man I understand very well the concept of genetics, but back to the question it was why try to draw a special unit and then shoot a small or immature deer. Some of the biggests bucks body size I have killed were 2pts. but they were mature deer not MILKSUCKERS I have no problem with poeople killing what ever they want all I am saying is that MOST people do not hold out for the more MATURE deer and then wonder why they cant kill a bigger buck lot at BCboy I'm sure he could have shot several smaller deer but held out and got Mass&Trash You dont kill a big buck by killing a small or immature deer. I was talking more about special areas like Dor H in wyoming or the strip in Arizona The pauns or similar areas why go through the trouble of drawing a area like these and then going out and killing a MILKSUCKER. Most of these areas have a small deer population to start with and when you kill all the deer out there there ain't going to be anymore big deer. California had a any deer hunt in 1956 in one of its mule deer areas it has never come back. I too have talked to many biologists in many states and I dont think too many of them really have the deers best intersets as a priorty. The elk seems to be more in favor right now, and the elk dont really need as much help as the mule deer. Mule deer are in real trouble where ever they are found and really need all the help we can give them. I have hunted about every animal I wanted too but have never hunted anything I enjoy as much as a big MATURE mule deer. May they be here for all our grand children to enjoy, but they need our help.
 
I agree with some here, like Dmanmastertracker, that as long as the number of tags in a unit are limited, it doesn't matter if some shoot less than "trophy" quality bucks. In fact, it's better for those guys who only care about antlers, because that will leave more of the older age class bucks alive for the next year. It makes sense to kill some of the younger bucks because there are a lot more of them and many of them may not have made it through the winter anyway. This trophy hunting mentality that seems to be getting more and more prevalent is really not something that we want the general public to see either. Most non-hunters support hunting when it is for the meat, but they strongly disagree with trophy hunting. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with trying for the biggest bucks, just that we need to keep in mind what hunting is really about, and think about how we are perceived by the general public who know nothing about hunting and/or wildlife managment.
 
Did I miss something?

I thought the original post was about allowing people who draw a LE tag to go after that desired trophy buck, but who also enjoy getting a buck for the meat, the option of shooting a doe on the last day.

If its really about the meat, the hunter can likely pick out a fat flop ear and have at it - on the last day. Not an entirely bad idea, anyone think it would work to save even one buck?
 
>If its really about the meat,
>the hunter can likely pick
>out a fat flop ear
>and have at it -
>on the last day.
>Not an entirely bad idea,
>anyone think it would work
>to save even one buck?


Because every doe you kill you are killing how many generations of offspring? 1 buck and service multiple does so loosing the buck vs the doe doesnt mater as much assuming you didnt kill the last existing buck in the area.

Killing does is bad imo.


-DallanC
 
Even the trophy units need to have the buck to doe ratio kept in check. Look at the Kaibab for instance. I drew a early tag this year. It usually takes about 10 years to draw the tag. Well when the hunt started and all we saw the first couple days was fork horns and little 3 pts. We went to the manditory check station and started asking what was being taken. The F&G guy said the hunt is aimed at the small bucks. And from talking to them there were way more little bucks taken than mature bucks. The buck that I ended up shooting on the last few days of the hunt is not a trophy in some peoples eyes (4X4 with a 20" spread and nice deep forks). But for someone that won't draw that tag again for another 10 years that hasn't taken anything bigger maybe it is.
 
I think many people do not understand the impacts of a doe hunt, when done at the right time. The 1956 California doe hunt is probably one of the biggest misunderstood hunts in California. Here is what actually resulted.

A. Reduced pressure on heavily
browsed deer range so more
fawns could survive and produce
more bucks and does.

B. Resulted four years later in the
largest deer harvest on record in
California.

C. Was called ?criminal? and a
?slaughter? and resulted in legislation
that presently gives 37
California counties the authority
to veto proposed antlerless
hunts.

D. Has restricted, even to this day,
the number of antlerless deer
hunts in much of California?s
most important deer range.

For the entire ?56 season within the
special doe-hunt counties, reported
killed was 44,574 bucks and 38,081
does, for a reported total of 82,655
deer. The statewide deer kill that
year was 108,452, of which 38,081
were does. By comparison, the average
annual deer kill for the previous
five years was 68,763, about
4,000 of which were does.
In 1957, one year after the hunt, the
statewide buck kill hit 65,214, the
fourth highest on record in California.
The three high doe kill counties
in the state during the 1956
hunt?Lassen, Modoc and Siskiyou?
recorded a total kill of 11,682 bucks
in 1957, a 23 percent improvement
over the previous five-year average.
By comparison, Humboldt,
Mendocino, Lake, Sonoma and
Marin counties, which had been left
out of the ?56 either-sex shoot, recorded a total buck kill of 8,233 in 1957, 21 percent below the previous
five-year average. But, the best was yet to come, for
this reason: any herd that experiences
significant reductions in adult
deer numbers in an environment of
stable habitat will strive to fill the
voids by producing more fawns that
survive to adulthood. One to two years later, of course, the
fawns become adults?roughly half
of which are does and half are bucks. In 1959 and 1960, when improved fawn survival did, in fact, translate
into more adult deer, California hunters experienced the highest
two-year buck harvest on record at 149,067.
With the exception of 1956, the 1960 season by itself resulted in the state?s highest total deer kill at
84,421 and a near record-tying buck kill of 75,584.


Joe
 
"Limited entry" tags are not solely for bagging a "trophy" buck. That's just not the only intention, the intention is to limit entry, period. Some LE tags are doe tags. A lot of LE tags in Wa.. are in areas with no general modern season, so in essence, it is the general season for that particular unit. "Obviously the person knew the area was being developed or used as a trophy unit or they would not have put in for the special permit" was what was stated. What I did read in the original post also is that the author wanted input on why people would hunt for a smaller buck and the benefit, if any from a management perspective. I think that there's enough good info on that shared to explain why it is a positive thing and also, necessary to ensure quality hunting in the future. On the doe tags, I think they can be a good thing from the perspective of a range that has been maxed out beyond carrying capacity to keep the herd healthy. Most deer disease outbreaks like bluetongue and CWD are associated with overpopulation -though I've never shot a doe myself, yet.

D
 
bigmoosie,

people who are not necesarrily focused on trophies put in the for the LE hunts because the hunting EXPERIENCE is so much better; lots more bucks, lots more deer, rut hunting, less people, etc etc. LE hunts are all the things general tag hunts are not. When all you have shot in your life is 2 points, a basket racked, 18" 3 pt is pretty fulfilling.

this whole notion about being a "trophy" hunter is overblown; myself, I define a "trophy" as a 180 class buck or better. There are very, very, very few hunters who will pass up buck after bucks and be willing to go home with no deer to achieve this standard, even on this website.

most of us on this website are in a class below this, and this class is what I call "mainframe" hunters; if we see a 24" or 25", farily heavy buck, but it is a 3x4, or is crab clawed, in a general draw hunt, I will probably take it. Many times these bucks score poorly, but look great on the wall or in the pictures. I will probably raise my standards in an LE hunt, but would be happy with a buck like that towards the end of the hunt.

if you can consistenetly take 25" bucks of any type, on public ground in general draw hunts, you are in a very small minority of hunters. Everybody around here considers themselves a trophy hunter, but by looking at the pics, even on MM, most of the bucks are not 180 class or higher. So, who am I or anybody else to tell somebody else what a trophy is?? Where do we draw the line?? Is at what I am willing to hold out for, or is it for what you are willing to hold out for?

the mule deer problems are not on the LE hunts, the problems are in the general draw areas, which is the vast majority of the hunting.
 
MG I am shocked you would consider hunters who don't pass all other bucks to get at a trophy "a class below". For many reasons listed, the opposite could be true, though I think for most of us we go through phases. If I have enough venison in the freezer, I may pass on a buck I would shoot otherwise, in a different year. I've never shot a B&C animal, but I've also only shot 2 point or better on public lands general season and passed on over 1/2 dozen spikes and little forkie's. It disappoints me tremendously to watch some of the "trophy hunter" shows of TV and hear the hunter complain about not taking a bigger buck and act truly heartbroken they didn't set a new record like that's all that matters on their hunts.
 
I usually get upset when another hunter draws a permit in a trophy area and shoots a dinker. I honestly never looked past my upset about not being drawn and the other guy killing a buck they could kill almost any where. I like the thought about those guys shooting dinkers, and that will mean a actual better chance at a stud if and when I get drawn. So now it still does not make sense to me, but heck shoot the heck out of those dinks. I still hold if you can shoot a doe over a dink buck you should. I don't know of any public land areas where the buck/doe ratio is even close to what it should be to produce the best quality/numbers of mature deer. If you held out for a 180 class deer even gross in all but a few areas 90+ % of hunters would never kill a deer. Maybe I am not as high of a trophy hunter as I thought. A 170ish gross is a good buck and I would consider it a shooter.
 
My 13 year old son made the mistake of shooting the wrong buck in a trophy draw unit this year. I thought he was shooting at a 170ish 4x4, and a 20" forkie ten yards away dropped. The best part off it was that he was happy just to get a buck. Awesome. Although it was the wrong buck, it was a great shot and clean kill. All I could do was get excited for him and give him a high five4.
 
I don't have a problem with young hunters taking small bucks. However, I wish meat hunters would consider going to Safeway for their meat. It's cheaper, easier and tastes better. I haven't pulled the trigger for several years because I haven't seen a deer large enough to take. Yes, I hunt hard for a couple of weeks each year and no, I'm not looking for a book deer. I just want a decent 4x4 in the 170+ range.
 
The extremely high prices of tags these days must contribute to an increased harvest of smaller deer, or elk for that matter. If someone is going to pay several hundred dollars for a tag, and gets one chance to go on a deer hunting trip per year, passing up smaller critters might be tough. Unfilled tags that cost $400 are a hard pill to swallow.
 
>The extremely high prices of tags
>these days must contribute to
>an increased harvest of smaller
>deer, or elk for that
>matter. If someone is
>going to pay several hundred
>dollars for a tag, and
>gets one chance to go
>on a deer hunting trip
>per year, passing up smaller
>critters might be tough.
>Unfilled tags that cost $400
>are a hard pill to
>swallow.


EXACTLY!
The small bucks taste good too. If it was an either sex tag I would take a doe instead of a small buck, but it isn't! So if I don't find a big buck I will take a smaller one in the last day or two so I have some venison in the freezer.
 
I really enjoy Venison

I love the tasted and the flavor. If I ever draw an LE tag I will hold out for a big deer, but I will happily shoot a smaller deer the last day for the meat. To me the Trophy is THE HUNT not the deer.
 
RE: I really enjoy Venison

I agree the trophy is the hunt, that is why I don't feel the need to kill a small one on the last day. I always tell people I hunt with if the animal is not big enough on the first day he won't be big enough on the last, they dont 'grow' after the hunt starts. I would rather go home w/o an animal like wholelottabull did, than 'settle' for something I really didn't want. A general tag is a little different than a LE tag IMO.
 
>However, I wish meat hunters
>would consider going to Safeway
>for their meat. It's cheaper,
>easier and tastes better.

I disagree with that. Venison is healthier, and some people actually prefer to eat it over beef. Just because you think it tastes better doesn't mean everybody feels that way. Besides wild meat doesn't have all the chemicals and crap in it that beef does. Did you ever think about that?
 
ITS SOMETHING IVE POUNDERED FOR MANY YRS. I ALWAYS HERE PEOPLE COMPLAIN THERE ARE NO BIG DEER AROUND ANY MOORE. SO THATS WHY THEY KILLED A SMALL BUCK. IF MOORE OF THEM WOULD JUST HUNT FOR THE EXPEIREANCE AND PLESHURE AND LET THE SMALL BUCKS GO THEY WILL START TO SEE MOORE GOOD BUCKS WHERE THE HUNT. MY MOTO IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE. NO SMALL BUCKS!!!!!
 
One of the worst things to hurt trophy potential of an area is to have everyone try (by choice) to or be forced (by law) to kill a nice buck. A lot of the smaller bucks will not make it anyway for other reasons (preadators, disease, winters). If everyone kills the few that make it to trophy or near trophy status, almost none will make it to the super buck status. Antler point restrictions also lead to some bucks mistakenly be shot and left, only to have another one shot on the tag. Yes, a small buck killed will certainly not get big, but if you only harvest big ones, tag numbers will have to be even lower to support a given number of trophy bucks. And small bucks still make a lot of hunters happy.
 

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