legal Utah spikes?

T

tinenut

Guest
Would these Bulls be legal to harvest in Utah with a spike only tag.

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Both Bulls have a single brow, there beam has been broke, and they grew a very long second point. The guide book says a spike can not branch above the ears on one side. I also sent the pics to the Utah DWR and have a rulling from Anis Aoude. So what do you think he said? I also asked about one antlered mature bulls, and do you think they can be harvested with a spike tag.
 
The Utah wildlife big game guide books definition of a spike says they are both legal. No branched antlers above the ear on one side. I would say yes.
 
Illegal, branched antler is longer than the ear. I know what the guide book says and it needs to be revisited because it is open to interpetation. However, any tine longer than the ear regardless of where it branches will disqaulify the spike definition.
 
completely 100% LEGAL. shoot it! The bull must BRANCH ABOVE the ear. not have an antler longer tha the ear as earlier stated or the proclamation would say "longer than the ear" but it says that it has to BRANCH above the ear and it looks like this one doesn't it onlytakes a 1 in sticker point above that ear though to disqualify it from being considered a spike.


You'll find that this is a sore subjectwith a few people on here but as long as the verbage is the way it is in the proclamation/guide book then shoot away!


It was a big bodied 2 point.
 
Thats the first time I have ever heard that one , A point longer then the ear ? Where did that come from ? It is a branch above the ear. That way if you see that bull in the timber and can only see one side of his rack and its the spike side sticking up in the air. Then you dont get in trouble when it falls over and the other side is a big six :)
 
I would say by definition they are legal. It would be scarey to pull the trigger though. Sounds like you are covering your bases. Good luck!
 
Now here is where it gets interesting, there is actually four Bulls similar to these two that I have seen. One has a club thing growing down its face and a spike going up and a six pont on the other side, the other is a seven point by spike or broken up? There is also several nice Bulls broke off one side at the skull. They are all on the Pahvant, so come and hunt them if you dare? The sad thing about this is all but the club Bull will grow normal racks next year, and should not be shot as spikes. But several people I know is planning on harvesting these Bulls.

Well after my original question sent to the DWR with these same pics I got a response from Anis and I will quote ?No this would not qualify the fact that he has brow tines on both makes him a branched antlered bull? So then I asked about a one antlered mature Bull and quote ?NO?. Too make these even more confusing the local Fish & Game officer has told people that these can be harvested as spikes.
 
The one club bull has been that way for more then a couple of years.It is not going to change back into a normal 6 x 6. If its the same one we saw and that the tines up guys have the sheds on.
I dont agree with people shooting broken bulls. That is not the purpose of cleaning up the herd. We saw that club bull and another bull that ended up getting shot on a trophy hunt there. Our trophy hunter wouldn't shoot the 6 x 1 w/the club. The other bull look to have no G 2 but it was up the horn closer to the G 3 . A local richfield guy shot the bull that was running with the club bull. We tryed to find a management hunter to take the club bul ,buy could find no one.
It's hard to believe he has lasted this long with all of the spike hunters. I was surprised when I saw the tines up guys have been picking up his sheds.
 
Its better to operate black and white... The grey area is where you will get in trouble, is it really worth losing your hunting rights?

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I think the proclamation needs some clarification if Anis says "NO"! What exactly does "above the ear mean? Is it the top of the ear if your holding it upright? Is it the base of the ear? Allot of grey area as stated. I would shoot one as a spike and would let others shoot one if I were a F&G officer. How many LE tag holders are going to take a bull like that? Let a spike tag holder take it out!
 
They have the unique factor that a lot of guys would love to take home... I've seen quite a few LE tags go on those type of bulls.

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-11 AT 03:04PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-11 AT 03:02?PM (MST)

NOT LEGAL!

(s) "Spike bull" means a bull elk which has at least one antler having no branching above the ears. Branched means a projection on an antler longer than one inch, measured from its base to its tip.

"Above the ears" means above where the ears grow naturally on the elk's head - so ANY branch on an antler that grows out above the ears and is longer than 1 inch results in a branch antlered bull, not a spike.

It does not say that it is above the length of the ears when the ears are at such an angle etc.... which is how it would have to be worded if it meant anything different.

Also read this PDF - the officer who wrote it is pretty clear in what he, and the law, determine to be illegal. He says "antlers that forked on both sides."

http://wildlife.utah.gov/wr/0707mistake/0707mistake.pdf

You have the answer from Anis anyway, so there is no question. Don't do it, tell your buddies not to either.




HOOK 'EM!
 
I am not going to hunt them, but I am trying to stop the hunt of them.

Roy, SO do you thing the first brow "g1" is above the ear or below? I think that is the gray area, Maybe the guide book should say. spike has no branch on either antler...

Thnaks alot guys for your help on this.
 
If one reads correctly the 2011 Utah Big Game Field Regulation definition for spike bull
(R 657-5-2(s)), then the bulls pictured do not meet the spike definition. Apparently the brow tine is above the ear and more than 1".

Definition: Spike bull is a bull that has at least one antler that does not branch above the ears. A branch is a projection on an antler that's longer than one inch (R 657-5-2(s)).

Too much uncertainty and not worth the risk of a fine. If he's not a straight spike I'd let him go.

Eldorado
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-11
>AT 03:04?PM (MST)

>
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-11
>AT 03:02?PM (MST)

>
>NOT LEGAL!
>
>(s) "Spike bull" means a bull
>elk which has at least
>one antler having no branching
>above the ears. Branched means
>a projection on an antler
>longer than one inch, measured
>from its base to its
>tip.
>
>"Above the ears" means above where
>the ears grow naturally on
>the elk's head - so
>ANY branch on an antler
>that grows out above the
>ears and is longer than
>1 inch results in a
>branch antlered bull, not a
>spike.
>
>It does not say that it
>is above the length of
>the ears when the ears
>are at such an angle
>etc.... which is how it
>would have to be worded
>if it meant anything different.
>
>
>Also read this PDF - the
>officer who wrote it is
>pretty clear in what he,
>and the law, determine to
>be illegal. He says "antlers
>that forked on both sides."
>
>
>http://wildlife.utah.gov/wr/0707mistake/0707mistake.pdf
>
>You have the answer from Anis
>anyway, so there is no
>question. Don't do it, tell
>your buddies not to either.
>
>
>
>
>
>HOOK 'EM!


I get what your saying Roy. Is the definition of "above the ears" yours or the DWR's? Is is it written in some dictionary that may legally stand in court? We can all make assumtions.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-11 AT 05:05PM (MST)[p]>
>
>I get what your saying Roy.
> Is the definition of
>"above the ears" yours or
>the DWR's? Is is
>it written in some dictionary
>that may legally stand in
>court? We can all
>make assumtions.

Well, it appears from tinenut's answer from Anis Aoude and from the officer's wording in the pdf - yes, this is the legal precedent that has been established and you will be pretty hard pressed to make a legal argument against it. As Eldorado states, it is too risky.

HOOK 'EM!
 
If you guys are uncertain then don't shoot. But as long as there is not a branch after the length of the ear on one side it is a legal spike.
 
The bull that I have seen over there with the club is legal. He is a staight spike going up w/ a big club turning down.
Now for the bull with the big G1 in the picture, That one is above his ear in my book and I wouldn't chance it.
 
BIGJOHNT, I know the Bull you are talking about with the club, we have not seen him for a couple years, and don't know of any one finding his sheds the last few years. The one I seen this year is young, and not so much of a club more of a cluster of small points near his face.

If the definition of above the ear is where the ear grows out of the skull, then every branch on the antler even a drop tine would be above the ear?
 
Our law enforcement officers noticed this discussion, and we followed up with the law enforcement chief. He clarified that as long as the antler doesn't branch above the tip of the ear, then it's a legal spike bull. Hope this helps if you're heading out on Saturday. Good luck!

Amy Canning
Communications Specialist
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
 
The dwr says this is not a legal spike. I don't see any difference between this one and your pics??? Just thought i'd share. He's unique nevertheless! The antler growing into his ear has to be miserable! The law definitely needs to be explained more clear. I honestly thought this would have been a legal spike. Here is a quote i got in my email regarding this bull. Phil Gray, Office Specialist for the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources stated, "I forwarded your pictures to one of our Conservation Officers and he agreed with me that this is NOT a spike elk. In the rule a Spike bull is defined as "a bull elk which has at least one antler having no branching above the ears. Branched means a projection on an antler longer than one inch, measured from its base to its tip.'(R657-5-2(s) see attached). A branch refers to the length of the portion of antler, not where it comes off the main beam." Good luck huntin! i unfortunately didn't get a tag before they sold out!
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