Zeke, Patientlywaiting, others.....

C

Cam@strawberry

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I know you just PM'd me Zeke but i'm curious how all the wasatch hunters did.....

In my estimation it was an incredibly tough year, just too kill a bull was an accomplishment let alone to kill a good one.....

My rifle hunter killed a 290-300 bull on the last hour of the last day, my muzz hunter scored on a beautiful 335 bull on the afternoon of his last day, if he wishes to post the pic he will.....

As a group we had chances at 4 monster bulls, couldn't seal the deal on any of them. Probably passed on 150 bulls between the combined hunters, saw an enormous amount of 280-310 bulls and very very few cows and big bulls 320+.

I know there were some very big bulls out there but, the heat and feed made it almost impossible to locate them come hunt time, they holed up with one or two cows and did not come out.....

So wasatch hunters lets here it, I am most particularly interested in the number of cows that were seen.......

littlebeaver.jpg
 
I would agree. Bugles were hit and miss with some mornings being dead quiet. There were only 2 bulls I was on that were bigger than mine. There were very few cows in all the scouting and hunting I have done this year.

Talk with a guy last night that sent me pics of the bull he shot which was a small 5 by 6 because he had a hard time finding them.
 
I don't have much to compare too as it was my first elk hunt in Utah. It was my brothers rifle tag and his first elk hunt. I have only hunted elk in CO over the counter tags except for one decent archery tag so I can say it was an absolute blast. Elk were bugling like crazy every morning and evening but not much response to a cow call at all. I would get several answers to every bugle I made so we were able to go quiet and sneak in on them. We saw about twice as many bulls than cows, passed on probably close to 15 bulls in the 280-300 catagory, saw one bull in the 380 class get whacked as we were devising a plan on how to get closer. The bulls would only step out of the trees about 10 minutes before dark which made it extremely tough to get set up on them in time and they were in the trees before it would get light. We felt like calling them was doing us no good so by day 3 we changed tactics and got a lot more aggressive by staying silent and working into the trees for them which paid off with an awesome bull for my brother that night. Here's a link to the pics of his bull if you haven't already seen them.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID12/13700.html
 
I want to know how beav Sr did?
Or is he still going to be hunting on the late rifle?

My name is Black Velvet & proud of it.
 
I also thought it was a tough hunt, I had the muzzy tag, and got up there the sat. Before the hunt started, ran into a couple rifle hunters in last minute scramble to find a bull. Like stated before lots of 300 class bulls, I only saw maybe 25 cows in the 7 days I was there.
 
I saw a lot less cows than I expected to see. Lot's of 300ish bulls and a few 350ish bulls.
 
I think on average the bulls have been better this year, but guys have really had to work for them.

It's still the wasatch, and a legit 320 plus bull is a big bull.

I don't think any weapon had a real rut advantage. Seems like it was pretty steady the entire month of September. I'd probably argue it was better during the archery hunt dates.

I also think cow numbers seem to be down, and they're about to get a whole lot lower.
 
I was on another unit further south, the rut was the best I have ever seen for the last week of the muzzy hunt. It was beyond crazy there...
 
Velvety, beav sr. Killed a very very impressive bull that is incredible to hold but does not score well.....with a two hundred and three inch frame it looks massive

littlebeaver.jpg
 
Can we see it berry?
Or is it magazine material?

My name is Black Velvet & proud of it.
 
You know what I mean alp! When ya hold the thing it's massive and gives the appearance of a much larger bull.....velvety I don't have pics...sorry

littlebeaver.jpg
 
I scouted a day with old Zeke, and then scouted 4 other days just for fun.
I saw as many good bulls this year, probably more than other year.
The elk were dispersed that is for sure!
I have seen some great bulls come off the unit this year:
353, 375, 340, 365, just to name a few.

I agree with Prism on his assessment.
 
I was told the rifle hunt was like shooting fish in a barrel. ;)
I didn't have a tag, but spent some time on the Wasatch. I even saw berrys truck parked at a trailhead. Opening of the rifle hunt was good for hearing bugles but after that they seemed to go quite.
I agree with the cow assessment, WOW we need more cows.
 
>I was told the rifle hunt
>was like shooting fish in
>a barrel. ;)
>I didn't have a tag, but
>spent some time on the
>Wasatch. I even saw berrys
>truck parked at a trailhead.
>Opening of the rifle hunt
>was good for hearing bugles
>but after that they seemed
>to go quite.
>I agree with the cow assessment,
>WOW we need more cows.
>

Here is the scary part, I believe the DWR has issued somewhere around 3000 cow tags for the wasatch! I'm glad I drew last year! If somebody has the actual figure, I'd love to see it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-11 AT 09:29AM (MST)[p]80.4 percent success rate last year on the rifle, ya I would say that would qualify as "shooting fish in a barrel" average of 4 days afield. :) Tough hunt.
 
I don't know how others did on this unit but I had a muzzy tag. And everything was a dream it worked out so well. Opening morning at 9 am I shot my bull (a 6x6 I was very happy with! Low 300s but just perfect for me) it 8 hours to get him out but it was worth every min. You have to be off the road to get into them and boy we got into them. I hope this unit does not get ruined because it is such a fun unit to hunt.
 
My brother and I both had early rifle tags. We both tagged out by sunday morning and saw a total of 10-12 bulls and 10-20 cows, the cows may have been the same herd the next day.
 
No, if I was shooting fish in a barrel, 100% would be expected. 80.4% is the probability of coyote chaser commenting on a post about a rifle elk hunt during the rut. No, wait, that would also be 100%.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-11 AT 11:23AM (MST)[p]The hunt could be as easy or as hard as a hunter wanted to make it, depending on what kind of bull they wanted. 80% on smaller bulls isn't what we wanted so it turned out to be 9 hard days (7 hunting days) of early mornings and late night with a bunch of backpacking to cut down on the travel miles to and from.

We saw quite a few bulls and my daughter passed on probably 1 good bull per day (passed to me means the elk is in range and you have a shot).

The one she passed on opening morning was beginning to haunt us since we had a tough time finding the largest bulls that I'd scouted all year. I'm sure they were there but we just couldn't put an eyeball on them.

She finally scored on one of those better bulls, in the last minutes of our 7th day in the field. A couple of days to take care of the bull and pack it out and the hunt was over.

I'll figure out how to do the computer thingy and get the pics and the whole story posted as soon as I can.

Her bull taped out at 356 2/8" (even without getting creative). He's a beautiful, even, long tined, 6x6. We're pleased with the outcome and I'm glad it didn't come too easily for her.

OK back to the question: We saw twice as many bulls as cows. I was shocked at this fact. We saw a ton of bulls in the 250" to 300" class and a few in the 300-310", very few in the 325"+ and damn few bulls bigger than that during the hunt. I saw several before the season but they sure must have scattered with the archery pressure. My opinion is that the F&G is issuing way too many cow tags with the current cow population.

Best to all,
Zeke

PS: A special thanks to a few MM'ers who went out of their way to help make our hunt successful. Thanks for sharing your expertise and time with us! Even the scouting was made more pleasurable by spending time with these friends!
 
Where we were hunting on the Wasatch, I also noted the obvious absence of Cows. On my son's archery hunt we saw more bulls than cows and at the end when the rut was finally starting the most cows we saw with a bull was 3.
I am not sure archers had any rut advantage, as we didn't start getting any responses until the last week.
I think the whole hunt was relatively hard in comparison to some previous years, but that was our experience.
My son did end up taking a nice bull. See Spence's Big Stinky on this forum, posted for us by B-Bop.

Your predictions berry were pretty accurate overall!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-11 AT 10:43AM (MST)[p]Your getting smarter albubba, hope for you yet! If your complaining about 80 percent success rates you are a tard! lol :)I need to hunt in your camp more, damn difficult 80 percent success rate hunt, chit give us hunters a chance. Might have to get off the road and spend more than 2-3 days to tag out! :) Just love hearing rifle "shooters" in the rut complaining about how difficult it is.....
 
Had the archery tag and talked to a lot of cow/spike hunters that said this year the cow numbers were way down. That being said the biologist said his opinon was that most were very spread out due to water conditions and that most of the heard took much longer traveling from from their wintering grounds to summer grounds as there was no need to move because they had water and feed where they were. I hunted about 15 days and saw approximatly 30 cows but seemed to be hunting an area that held more bulls.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID12/13650.html

Unfortunatly we did find one dead cow someone did not recover in that count.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-11 AT 10:54AM (MST)[p]Hey Zeke,
Can I post of photo of your Daughters TREMENDOUS Bull? You can then add the story?
I just cannot wait for people to admire that beauty, and the Elk :)
 
I was up there for 20+ days on my archery hunt. It was an awesome time. Me and a friend both had bull tags.
We hunted for 16 days straight all up until the last minutes of late on the closing day. We got into bulls everyday but most the elk we got into were not very vocal and would not respond to any calls so it made it very difficult.
The last week things turned around and the bulls started buglin more and more. I passed on probably 10 bulls that were right around the 300 inch range that were within 50 yards. I was alittle to picky. I also had a fews bulls real real close like 10 yards close that i had drawn on but couldnt get a shot. You know what they say about archery everything has to be perfect and then on top of that you still have to make the shot.
Finally the morning of the last day my bull stepped out to 70 yards broadside. I distance i am very comfortable with and i got my shot. Unfortunately he was a bit further and I shot right under neath him. That night we called in the biggest bull we had seen our whole hunt. This thing was easy a 350 bull and got him to 13 yards from my buddy and as he was drawing the bull winding us and spun around and took off. He may of been able to get a shot off but didnt risk it.

So we both ate tag soup but it was a great hunt. They seemed to really be opening up when our hunt ended. 80% of the bulls we seen were low 300's. We seen alot of bulls with no cows but the last week i bet all together we seen a hundred of cows at least. By Friday there was two bulls that had over 10 cows a piece.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-11 AT 11:42AM (MST)[p]No complaints, just observations. There is a difference. Go read this post again. Days afield is meaningless. We only get a week compared to a month for archery.
80% sucsess is just about right after waiting 20 years to draw.
 
Zeke,

They really dont have a choice but to issue cow tags for the Wasatch. Because of our friends in the cattlemens association we are forced to meet certain population requirements so that the cows can eat grass. Because Utah wants rifle "shoots" during the rut with an average success rate of 90% across the board they cannot issue enough bull tags to keep the population in check without all of MM nation and b-bop-a-lulu freaking out the quality going down. Because your top end bulls get hammered during the early rifle shoot. And MM nation does not want quality to go down, and does not want the rifle shoot moved out of the rut, so they issue cow tags and spike tags to try to keep within the units target population. If the hunt was harder, and the top end bulls were not easily accessible like they are now, Utah could issue more tags and alot of the smaller 250-300 inch bulls would end up getting shot, they could cut back on the cow tags, eliminate the spike hunts. JMO.
 
Utah chooses to make it a 20 year wait. I take comfort in knowing that none of my kids will ever draw a LE elk tag under the current system.
 
Berry spent a opening weekend near the current creek area and saw as many bulls as cows which was about 12. My buddy ended up shooting a 300 class six pt. I saw two that were shooter 330 plus the rest were dinks.
 
Coyote_chaser,
I semi-agree with what you're saying. I guess you know what you're talking about when you say "elk shoot" but having hunted the early rifle Wasatch several times (me, son, daughter, friends) I would assess the hunt as a bunch more difficult than a "shoot". Unless of course you're wanting a raghorn bull.

To find and kill a better bull seems like it's more difficult than your description.

If you look at the bull tag increases over the years you'll see that the pressure has been put on the bigger bull.. a bit.

I don't know what you want in a hunt and everyone is looking for something different but a 250" bull is far from a quality LE bull and not worth waiting 15 years to hunt. There are many spots in the west where you could do that every year.

My opinion is, if a hunter is willing to apply for a decade and a half to get one (1) tag then they should have the possibility of harvesting a bull of which to be proud. I would hate to see us return to the "open bull" type hunting on too many units.

Utah has a trophy elk herd that is the envy of many. I'd hate to see us squander what we have. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have all the answers but I like what we have right now.

The F&G has a difficult task to keep us all happy, all the time, at the same time. LOL

Zeke
 
No spike hunts? So now we have to draw to even hunt elk at all in Utah? This is getting better.
So tell me CC, What is an acceptable wait to draw an elk tag?
 
I would tend to agree with the biologist about the elk being scattered due to the feed. Early this year we saw more cows on the wasatch then I can remember in a long time, and all summer our trail camera's were loaded with pictures of big groups of cows and calfs.

I too hunted the wasatch early hunt with a friend that had a tag and she killed a 305 bull, we saw bigger and probobly could have got a bigger bull but she wanted a 300+ 6X6 and this one gave here a chance.

With all that said I still dont think 3000+ cow tags is a good idea!
 
Zeke,

Thats my whole point, because Utah wants rifle hunts in the rut tags have to be very limited because you slaughter the top end bulls. And because of that you cannot issue many tags because success rates are so high especially on high end bulls. If you made it harder to hunt, bulls would actually get bigger, more of them so we could issue more tags, and it would not be a 20 year wait to hunt. A unit the size of the Wasatch holds a crap load of elk, if the rifle hunt was in Mid-October like it should be you could issue twice as many tags, kill the same amount of elk, and the larger majority would not be the top end, and people could draw the tag in 5-7 years. And have a legitimate shot at a solid 330-350 class bull. AZ does the EXACT same thing, Unit 10 in AZ (one of the best units in the country) issues 500 rifle tags for end of October. Plus 50 early rifle tags, and 150 archery tags. And they kill GIANTS each year. There are so many better options available to UT to manage the elk herds, but SFW has us by the balls cause of the $$$$ that auction tags bring in. We cant kill the bulls cause people will #####, so we kill the cows. Cant have your pie and eat it to!
 
Depends on what the hunter expects, I think there should be many different options for each unit. Allocate 10 tags per unit for those that want the rifle shoot in the peak of the rut. For those type of tags people should expect 15-20+ year waits. Mid October rifle hunts on good units should be in the 3-7 year range. Good archery tags catching some of the rut should be in the 5-10 year range, probably a little higher for muzzy hunters. So many different and better options than what are available to us now.



Albubba do you think the system is broken how it is set up now?
 
We will never have a perfect system. There are too many factors involved. I do know that shooting a 250 bull every 7 years is not an option that I want.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-11 AT 02:13PM (MST)[p]coyote_c,
I can't buy what you're selling.
You're saying issue more tags, kill more bulls, and we'll have more and bigger big bulls to kill and hence, we'll kill more big bulls.....all because we moved the hunt out of the rut?
You had me thinking a bit, right up until I looked at your math. It's flawed bro and not just because you're preaching against the "easy" rut hunt.

I think I know what you're trying to say. Your kids don't have enough points to draw with the current "limited" number of permits which are issued so you want them to issue MORE tags so you can have one and you're sure YOU'LL kill one of the bigger bull while all the others will kill only raghorns. I'm really trying to figure out what you want because it's starting to sound like a whacky religious rant.

You simply might want to hunt elsewhere if you want that type of a hunt. Like I said, you can do it every year.... somewhere else.

I've hunted elk somewhere every year for 40 years so what I'm about to say is backed up by more than a little experience. THE RUT IS NOT AS HUGE OF AN ADVANTAGE FOR RIFLE HUNTERS AS YOU'VE INCORRECTLY ASSUMED. Whether in or out of the rut, the bull tag numbers shouldn't be increase.... unless you want much smaller bulls. I'm not sure we have the perfect system in place but I can't seem to side with your flawed math.

Respectfully disagree,
Zeke
 
>We will never have a perfect
>system. There are too many
>factors involved. I do know
>that shooting a 250 bull
>every 7 years is not
>an option that I want.
>

Bingo! albubba is the winner! That's what I was trying to say but I got a little wordy. LOL

Zeke
 
Zeke,

Issue more tags, kill the same amount of bulls. Thats what I said. You would lower the success rate, hence more tags can be given. Which will increase draw odds, top end bulls wont be hammered at noon chasing cows. You will get bigger bulls if you don't rifle hunt them in the rut. My kid is not old enough to hunt, at the current rate they will never hunt. Just look at the draw odds and applicants and do some simple math, since you like math. Here is some simple math for you.

Southwest Desert 46 tags 40 bulls harvested 87% success rate

Now lets say you make the hunt in mid october and can lower that success rate to say 45-50% now you can issue 100 tags and kill the same amount of bulls. And odds are they will not be the top end. So double the tags, kill the same amount of elk.

Zeke....... Gotta be honest, this is the most laughable quote I have ever ever seen on MM "THE RUT IS NOT AS HUGE OF AN ADVANTAGE FOR RIFLE HUNTERS AS YOU'VE INCORRECTLY ASSUMED"... lol are you for real? 90 percent success rates across the board!!! For real??


Here is what I want, make it real easy for you. Make it a "hunt" not a "shoot" increase tags and lower success rates. Kill the same amount of bulls. Easy enough? :)
 
LOL, Albubba your killing me here! ha So you don't think by moving the rifle out of the rut when the BIG bulls that you want to hunt are the absolute most vulnerable, would not equate in BIGGER bulls for you to hunt down the road? For real? But keyword here is you would have to "hunt" which I can only imagine the posts that I would see since people are complaining how hard it is already in the peak of the rut with a rifle. Good old Utah entitlement!

So let me get this right, what you do want is the current system where we wait 15+ years to hunt the Wasatch Rifle tag where the average bull is maybe 300"? Cause that's where we are at! Just look at the posts! :)
 
Coyote what is so damn hard about sitting in a tree stand over a water hole for 12 hours? Ya that's really tough. Good heck why don't you take your recliner up there next time so you won't get any splinters in your butt. I hunt as hard as you do on Sunday afternoon watching football. "Naptime, oh I can't I'm hunting."


I get soooooooooo sick of you bow hunters acting like because you hunt with a bow that you are better hunters and hunt a lot harder than ANY WEAPON hunters. GET OVER YOURSELF!
 
READ AGAIN YOTE. NO ONE COMPLAINING BUT YOU!!!
Why are you complaining. You can get a tag and hunt your azz off in just 5 years. Good old archery entitlement. If you dont like Utah, you are free to hunt every other state.
 
CC,
Evidently we will not agree so we should leave it at that, but.... since you can't help but take little jabs at others.....

I never, not once, saw or heard a bull at noon chasing cows. That was a poor assumption on your part. As a matter of fact, your whole rant is based on assumptions. bigger this, if smaller that, move the hunt, give more, take less, bigger, smaller etc. And yes, I did follow what you were saying.

In the areas which we hunted, the bulls fired up at sundown and were done most mornings before legal light. This doesn't sound like shooting fish in a barrel!

Now, you've done it, managed to insult me. LOL.
Keep on preaching but you've managed to lose my membership to your club.


Zeke

PS: when you finally mentally grow up you'll learn that you can win over more people if you don't insult them and belittle what the just did or said.

If your goal was simply to rant, carry on. It's working for you.
 
You ever sat in a treestand for 12 hours? :) I have not. That would be tough, I would rather hike all day than sit in a tree 12 hours.

Rut I hurt your feel bads? :)

This topic is not about who hunts harder, stay on topic.
 
You have made a back handed comment about actually having to "hunt" in almost everyone of your posts, so take your own advice.

And no, you didn't hurt my feelers. I know your type and don't take you seriously.

Back on topic:

We need more cows, so if the archers didn't have the option to shoot either sex then we would have a lot more cows on every unit. And we ALL know that they are killing three to every one they bring home. This would create more elk and in turn more bulls for everyone to hunt.

We need more cows.
 
C_C et al,
I'm a bow hunter too and 12 hours in a treestand can be "Holy" Rough too. Some of my treestands have been 1.5 hours from the trailhead.... in the dark both ways (up hill both ways too! LOL) so it can be rough.

Hell, let's all agre to disagree! LOL

To my young C_C hunting friend, you would have had to push pretty hard to keep up with us for the 9 days we were out there. You're young enough that I'd have had you carry some of my stuff..... like the antlers, cape and optics for 6 miles (GPS)!

Fish in a barrel? I must have missed the barrel with all the "easy" fish in it. If you want to talk about tough hunting, I'm probably your guy. Been there, done that.... for longer than you've been alive, is my guess!

I've always said: " an opinion is only as valuable as the experience to back it up"

Zeke
 
Zeke,

I have hunting since I can remember, grew up chasing elk all through HS and College on a limited entry hunt. Have hunted elk in CO and UT and ID. Backpack wilderness hunts in CO, so I know a thing or two about hunting hard. Not to mention I am a die hard Chukar hunter. I know how the elk are on limited hunts, especially peak rut with a rifle.

I've always said: " an opinion is only as valuable as the experience to back it up"

This is right after you said that the rut offers no advantage to rifle hunters.... Makes me question all the "experience" you claim.

Anyways, we can agree to disagree.
 
I have to agree that there should be better ways of managing the elk, but anyone who thinks that a rifle rut hunt is a point and shoot deal is up in the night.....and yes coyote i'm directing that comment directly at you.....

It would be my opinion that the absolute easiest time to hunt big bulls is in early august when they are bachelor herded up, all that requires is glass time, the bulls don't move and if you can hunt it with a rifle that truly is a point and shoot deal......

it kinda gets my hair up a little when guys say oh the rut rifle hunts are a simple out and back deal.....they aren't especially on the snatch......

Personally I think that spike hunts are a perfectly good idea, they serve a purpose and still provide for an upper class of bull........

Here is my take on UT, this simple statement. UTAH WILL NEVER HAVE SUSTAINED, QUALITY AND QUANTITY HUNTING UNTIL BIOLOGISTS AND SPORTSMEN HAVE A POSITIVE WORKING RELATIONSHIP........

Until a group of sportsmen and biologists can sit down in a meeting and unanimously agree on the current state of the wildlife it will never change.......

The up and coming cow hunt is a really good example, the sportsmen cried nay the biologists cried yay and here you have it, the people in the field saying we saw no cows.....i don't care how piss poor a hunter you are or how spread out the elk are, with a supposed 7700 head to see, everyone should be seeing quite a few cows. Not groups of bulls running around with no cows in september......

I was appalled at the number of cows that we saw as an outfitter together......we covered nearly the entire unit at any one point in time and not one of us ever saw more than 15 cows a day......

ZEKE, did you ever find out how Paitently did???

littlebeaver.jpg
 
This might be a little off topic, but as far as hunting elk in the rut with a rifle, not a huge deal in my opion. But I think the muzzy hunt and rifle hunt should swap season dates, during the rifle they are the only ones on the hill, but during the muzzy you have deer hunters(which posed no problem for the elk hunters) but the problem I ran into was if you drew a cow tag you could hunt cows during your muzzy deer hunt. Which I ran into a fair amount of people chasing bugles, hoping to get a shot at a cow. So maybe just set a season for cow hunters after all LE hunts are over or move the muzzy deer hunt, or switch some seasons around. I don't know anyone else run into this?
 
BerryBlaster,
Patiently waiting killed a really good bull. I only saw a cell phone pics but it looks great. I know he hunted hard and finally scored but other than that I have no details. He and I will probably have lunch within a week or two and swap stories.

Sorry for the post hijack, Beav. I find it ridiculous when some posters pop off with uneducated comments aimed at belittling others. No reason for it when they could make a point without showing their inexperience.

Dear Coyote_chaser,
You must have liked my "experience" quote. Go ahead and use it as your own when and if it actully applies. Try to quote me a bit more accurately than you did in one of you posts. I said the rut hunt wasn't the advantage that YOU say and THINK it is. There is an advantage but I'm pretty sure it isn't even an advantage that you've even thought about. Evidently you've not actually hunted for a specific bull or a certain class animal during the rut. Evidently it's a little more difficult than you think. Fish in a barrel? Get real!
Want to get together and compare experience? I'd welcome a face to face discussion between two passionate sportsmen. You might actually make some sense rather than leaving a turd taste in everyone's mouth.

Best to all,
Zeke
 
Come on beavis.
I know you got a picture or two,besides,missionaries don't fib.
From what I hear in the 350"s?
The day we can't be proud of a 350" Bull is the day we are in trouble.


My name is Black Velvet & proud of it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-11 AT 10:30PM (MST)[p]Zeke,

Just because your old does not mean your wise. Sorry for my late reply, was chasing my pointer around the mtns for some chukars.

"I said the rut hunt wasn't the advantage that YOU say and THINK it is. There is an advantage but I'm pretty sure it isn't even an advantage that you've even thought about."

Once again, Zeke, you seem to think you are the only person to have spent time in the mountains during the rut. I grew up spending most nights and weekends chasing bulls in the rut on the Panguitch Unit for years. To say that you DO not have an ADVANTAGE chasing bulls during the peak of the Rut with a rifle is an absolute joke. Ya certain bulls and certain "class animals" are easy to find when they are bugling their heads off chasing cows. If your having a hard time finding good bulls in the peak of the rut, with a rifle in your hand. Dont know what to tell ya.

The only turd your tasting is the truth, and it dont taste well!! :) There is a reason we are the only state that has mass rifle hunts in the RUT, it does not work.
 
Berry, I am sure you are a great guy and I have enjoyed your posts. But when the snatch is averaging over 80 percent success rate and under 4 days spent afield. And the Wasatch is on the low end, most of the top LE units are over 90 percent success rate under 3 days. Your not gonna find many sympathetic people listen to how hard a hunt it is. I have been on them before, the day after my archery Mt. Dutton hunt was over in 2008 two guys smoked 370 bulls in the canyon I was hunting. I was chasing one of them for the last 3 days of the hunt, he literally walked down and shot the bull the next morning. 8 minute hunt. Point and shoot, especially back in the hey day. Now everyone complains about quality, yet we continue to hunt bulls with the most effective weapon, at their most vulnerable time. Go figure.

And nothing will change as long as there is $$$$ for expo/auction tags. Cause even though Zeke says there is no advantage to hunting in the rut, there sure is a 5 figure difference people are willing to pay hunt in the rut with a rifle.
 
C_C, Read man read!
I didn't EVER say there was NO advantage during the rut. I do disagree that it's a "fish in a barrel" shoot.
Twist, spin, insult, belittle, misquote all you want, it looks good on you. Just because you're young and jump around like a new pup doesn't mean you have it all figured out.

Zeke
 
90% average success rate for the early rifle "shoot". When you have a stat that trumps that let me know. Hitting the sack, got an early day then a weekend of chukar hunting. Your more than welcome to tag along Zeke, its kinda steep, have to hike fast or we lose the dogs, but we could talk elk hunting. Cause I know we both love it!
 
Slow down fella's. Can't we all get along. First off congrats to the success on the 350+ bull on the Wasatch. That is a very nice Wasatch bull.

I agree that we are killing WAY to many cows. I just want to give my 2 cents. Hunting ANY hunt in the rut is a big advantage and success rates are WAY to high in the 90% range. I think where you guys are not seeing eye to eye is that Zeke is in the minority of our limited entry hunters. It sounds to me like he is a hard nosed hunter and that he and his daughter put in the time to hunt for a trophy class animal so for him this was not shooting fish in a barrel at all. Anyone knows that rut or not, (rifle or bow) killing a trophy 340-400" bull is no easy task. EVEN in the heat of the rut.

That being said Zeke is in the minority. Most guys hunting limited entry tags are not hunting for "trophy" class bulls. Most of them are happy with the first nice "6 point" they see. In that scenario hunting with a rifle in the rut can be like shooting fish in a barrel. By taking the rifle hunt out of the Heat of the rut even in the early to mid part of October it would cause success rates to drop and would allow for more tags to be given out and better drawing odds. This would indeed take some heat off of the true trophy bulls and would allow age class to increase. This in my opinion would not negatively effect hunters like Zeke. In fact it would help hard core hunters like Zeke because although they would still hunt hard they would be hunting older larger bulls. The ones that would be affected are the inexperienced hunters that do not scout or put in the time. The ones that are in a sense "shooting fish in a barrell" because they go out in the rut and shoot the first 6 point they see on opening day. These guys would have to hunt harder and many would give up and success rates would drop. It would just make the average guys work a little harder for the "6 point" bull while allowing the true trophy hunters to have the chance at hunting older age class bulls.

Just my opinnion

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-11 AT 07:34AM (MST)[p]Velvety, I don't have pics but beav sr says I can put them up so if I can round them up I will

Zeke not a prob bout the hi jack I learned all I wanted too.......

Chaser you are correct in the success rates this year however, look for them to drop around fifteen percent.....the fact of the matter is this.....

We live and hunt in a state that promotes and manages for trophy hunting. Someone said above that 'most guys' aren't trophy hnuters, I think that's a load of turd.....they may not kill trophy bulls but are they for damn sure trying......that's the point of putting in for utahs LIMITED ENTRY HUNTS!!!!!!!

It better damn well be a turkey shoot I'd I'm going to wait a decade or more too do it.....





littlebeaver.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-11 AT 08:38AM (MST)[p]Well said berry.

CC Days in the field is a stupid argument. Lets see...
average is 4, the hunt is 9. Pretty much in the middle.
opening weekend of any hunt is going to produce more.

Spread the word, no one kill til the second weekeend so the average will go up and CC will stop using this lame argument.

Im sorry you didn't score on your Dutton hunt and a rifle hunter killed the bull you were chasing. This must be the cause of all your anger issues. Just remember this. You CHOSE the weapon and hunt. You KNEW the the sucsess rates and still did it. Now you want to change it becuase your angery. I have some advice for you. Go see a therapist. It might help.
 
Albubba I told the dude where the bull was, we had been talking the whole last week of my hunt. I had no problem helping a fellow hunter out. I chose to go with a bow and will always chose to go with a bow.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-11 AT 08:49AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-11 AT 08:44?AM (MST)

"It better damn well be a turkey shoot I'd I'm going to wait a decade or more too do it....."

Thats the attitude we need to change, this is not skeet shooting. Its hunting, this entitlement is what bugs me. "I waited 15 years, there better be a 380 bull on the side of the road" ... bullchit!! Its a HUNT!!! As soon as this mentality changes, and people dont EXPECT bulls standing on the side of the road, I think Utah can make progress towards a decent Elk management plan.

I did not hi-jack the thread, people were complaining about issues that are being brought around because of the rifle rut hunts.
 
So you told him where the bull was and then come on here and complain that his hunt was over in 8 minutes. He should have sat on it for a couple of days to make you happy. You just dont make sense.
 
Not complaining, just showing how difficult those rut shoots really are! Its sad that the hardest part of the hunt is getting the tag! :)
 
Berry,
It's interesting to hear what the other hunters did on the hunt, what they saw and their thoughts about their hunt. I've enjoyed this thread, as I have your others in the past.

No doubt that this old hunting thing brings out the passion in us all. Sometimes what we do with that passion is seperating us into smaller factions.

C_C,
I'm sure you won't be too brokenhearted if I respectfully decline your offer to chukar hunt with you.
While it's a noble sport to hunt birds behind dogs, and I have enjoyed it immensely, I still have more elk to chase this week. Good luck to you.

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-11 AT 08:55AM (MST)[p]Are you kidding me? You didn't hijack this thread? You really are messed up dude. No complaining but you!
People were stating observations about the wasatch and you started with all the fish in a barrel BS!

Maybe we need another forum called "Cry me a river". You can be the moderator.
 
To answer the cow question, it appears to me that there are fewer cows around this year, is this a concern? Not for me, one of the management factors is the overall number of herd, as previously stated.

Lots of absolutes being thrown around as fact here, really there is no right or wrong, simply different ways to manage, maybe four or five different ways to manage opposed to the two being discussed here when it comes to a particular a unit or the overall State. Not sure Zeke?s opinion is considered a ?minority? or not as stated by someone here, just one persons opinion when not backed up with a source, even if it is it does not really matter to me, decisions should not be done to please the majority, there needs to be a good balance.

I share that ?minority? opinion. The way I look at it, the DWR has done a great job in offering a good balance across the state. We have general over the counter tags where a guy can still kill and nice 6 point, albeit he has to work harder than a limited entry unit. We have meat hunts with all the spike opportunities. And we have some quality trophy areas where a guy can find nicer bull, easier (when I say easier, I mean easier then a unti not managed in the same way). Again I don't see this as a right or wrong, simply different ways to manage that allows a good balance for a verity of interest across the state.

The good thing is we all have a choice, if you do not like the way the Wasatch is currently being managed, you can try and change it or apply for a unit that meets your current needs.
 
When I say most guys are not "trophy" hunters I did not mean that they would not all love a trophy bull. What I mean is that most of them do not have the experience or more importantly the patience to hunt for a truly trophy bull. In other words a VERY large percentage of them (I would say 80%+)could not pass a 300-315 bull to hold out for a 340-400" bull. And if they do pass one on the first day or so they have a very hard time doing it again on day 3 or 4. Also most hunters will not hunt 9 days like Zeke no matter what. They do not have enough time off work or enough "hall passes" with the wife and they just simply can not "Trophy Hunt".

Fact is that unlike other states MANY guys have never killed a decent bull because it takes 10+ years for most guys to get a tag. Because they have never killed a decent "6 point" most guys are willing to shoot a "Good" bull because they have never shot one or even had the chance to shoot one before. It is my experience that most guys that are truly trophy hunting for bulls in the 340-400" range have killed a few decent bulls before and they are willing to work extra hard to get a bull in that upper end. In Utah most guys have never had that chance except for the few lucky ones of us that get to hunt out of state.

Yes everyone would like a Giant bull... but the only way most of them could get one is because a 380" walked out in front of them before a 320" did. I have gotten MANY phone calls over the years from people wanting me to help their cousin, friend, uncle, co-worker etc. on day 4-5 of the rifle hunt because they have not gotten a bull yet and more often than not I have taken a morning or two to help these guys I don't even know. I have found many of them to be in a panic because this is there one chance in Utah to kill and elk and most of them have to be talked out of big 5 point and 5 by 6 bulls in the 280's. They are usually so excitable that you litterally have to calm them down and talk them out of these sub 300" bulls just to try and kill a 300"+. In my experience the majority are willing to kill a "nice 6 point" and statistically that is what most of them end up doing.

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-11 AT 10:59AM (MST)[p]Dob,

You brought a level-headed comment and I appreciate your points.

There are and should be different options.... in MY opinion. MY opinion is that the DWR does a pretty darn good job with balancing opportunity hunts and trophy hunts. There's something for everyone.

I've hunted elk for long enough to see the good, bad and the ugly. Some will remember when we all hunted for any bull. If a hunter ever killed ANY 6 point bull he was exhalted to supreme hunter and had instant rockstar status. I killed a ton of elk during this period but nothing big. I'm glad we have a different management program now (in most units). It is easier to kill a bigger bull, now, because we actually have them!

No one can deny the excitement of hunting during the "advantage" of the rut. It's pure heart-pounding joy at the prospects of a bugling big bull with a tag in your pocket. It's well worth the wait to have a chance at a big bull..... IMO

I, for one, would never want the "good old days" of elk hunting in Ut again. This option is already available here and elsewhere.

Zeke

PS: I re-read MTQuiver's comments and I think his opinion about the harvest of good yet smaller bulls is probably accurate. Along with this, the DWR has issued more bull tags. It looks to me like some are getting what they want, with the exception of removing the hunt from the rut.
 
Just to clarify my opinion: I agree 100% that we should have a variety of different hunts for different guys. I think that individual units should be managed for Trophy, "Nice 6 point", opportunity, and even cow/meat hunts. The problem I have is that it is much harder to distinguish which is which anymore. The Wasatch is a perfect example. Is it managed as a TROPHY hunt? Or is it managed for a "nice six point"? Or is it a cow/ meat hunt? It is tough to tell anymore. I don't think you can manage for everyone in the same unit. I think we need a MORE CLEAR distinction in each unit what we are managing for.

Even if the wasatch unit was split in half right down the middle and half was managed as TROPHY and half as "nice 6 point"/spike/cow we would quickly see a BIG difference in quality on the 2 sides.

To many guys are waiting 10-20 years to get a TROPHY tag when in reality they realize that they actually have an opportunity/ "nice six point" hunt. By mangaging each unit for one specific purpose instead of managing each unit for 3 or 4 purposes and trying to please everyone in every unit we could have units where EVERYONE is happy. Of course cow hunts are still necessary in TROPHY units and of course TROPHY bulls will still be killed in opportunity units but we need more of distinction in order to manage properly.

I think by doing this the guys that are wanting a "nice six point" would be able to draw a tag much faster and more often while letting the TROPHY Hunters have their little haven that they have waited 15-20 years to draw out for.

This all being said Utah elk hunting is much better than it used to be in the past. To me it just seems we had a very good thing going and we got greedy and quality has slipped over the past 5 years. Two years ago at the EXPO in Mossbacks booth the largest bull killed that year by any of their clients was 380" something compared to years past where they had several over 400". Quality has slipped for sure in Utah and although it is still good I believe it could be better.

Example: Pahvant used to be an obvious TROPHY unit but in the past few years they opened up spike hunting and even more cow hunts. Quality has slipped down there and I am now confused on what that unit is being managed for. Once again my point is We can't make EVERYONE happy on EVERY unit.
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Zeke I remember the days where any six point was a true trophy, but in those days we also had deer. LOL
 
Zeke, that's a beautiful, dandy bull that Jess shot. Great job to all of you. I'll bet she's happy with that thing.

Berryblaster....Sorry it's taken so long for me to reply. I hate being this busy at work, but I've been trying to catch up from being gone so long, and it buys the groceries.

I had a premium tag and lucky enough to have a great boss at work, a bunch of vacation time, and most important, a very understanding wife, so I made it out 23-24 days. 9-10 of those days were in August and just evenings. Then after Labor Day I made it out 14 full days and killed my bull on the evening of the 23rd.

He has short tines but makes up for that with 50 1/2" outside, 46" inside and 55" mains. He grossed 363 2/8, but has a weak right side with 13 2/8" deductions, and green scored 353.

Back to the cows. From Sept 8th to 23rd I doubt I saw more than 40-50 different cows. I saw cows everyday but I'm sure they were the same few cows in the same few canyons that I stayed in. I only seen one herd bull that had more than 2-3 cows and he had maybe 10 cows. I was surprised at the large number of bulls I seen and the small number of cows.

I also had game cameras out from July 8th until I pulled the last one last week. They were checked about every ten days. I can say that there is no shortage of bulls on the Wasatch. I had 15 -20 different bulls on them constantly, with nothing under 4-points,(except 1 spike) but...also nothing over 280"-300?ish ) and only one cow photo all summer.

I'm not sure how the east-side of the Wasatch Unit is for cow numbers I personally seen more bulls on the west-side of the unit (Cascade Springs, Provo and AF Canyon) than I seen cows. Not good.

Overall I had a fantastic hunt. I stayed with my bow up until the evening of the 22nd, the night before I killed him with a rifle. I seen bulls almost everyday and some smaller 6-points that I could have easily shot with my bow. The week before I killed my bull I had him at only 12-15 feet in the brush but I could only see bits and pieces of him thru the oaks but his whole rack above the brush. Then two days before I killed him, I had him in the open at 25 yards, but facing straight on so I couldn't get the shot. I'm sure both of those memories will wake me up at 3 am for the next year or so, just like they have this past two weeks.

I'll post photos and a rather embarrassin, but funny story sometime this weekend.
 
.cc. please take your kids and hunt some other state, we have all the know it all ,people.we need all ready here......
 
Thanks patiently....

Chaser, thats one of the most foolish arguements I've ever heard. Under the current management scheme, we manage for trophy bulls. We manage for world class elk hunting. To do that we must have large numbers of elk, good genes, and low numbers of hunters.......out of necessity this means a wait.

Personally I think that sense of 'entitlement' is warrented, if I am going to put that amount of money and time into something I believe the outcome had better be something near phenomenal. Kind of the old 'bang for the buck' arguement. Too suggest that we should have less quality for the same amount of effort and time is in a word, dumb. it's an impossible equation.

Quality goes down=less applicants=less wait.......
quality goes up=more applicants=more wait.....

its that simple guys will go elsewhere to hunt if they aren't getting what they want.......

Just say it chaser what your really getting at is this, less trophy more opportunity, there is nothing wrong with that attitude or mentality.........its simply a management scheme and a personal opinion.......

I have no problem with it, in fact i think it would be fun to have utah like colorado where you can go chase branch antlered bulls every year.......

BUT IT'S NOT!!!!!!!!! AND UNDER THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES AND MANAGEMENT SCHEME THIS IS WHAT WE GET!!!!!!!

I guess what I'm really trying to say chaser is this you can't have big bulls and ample opportunity at the same time, its impossible.........

if you want opportunity you loose quality, if you want quality you loose opportunity.

Now here is some other food for thought, concerning the spike hunts and their potential......

It will take nearly a decade for a spike hunt to have an effect across the entire herd from the year its instituted......the in place 3+ year old bull population will remain untouched for the most part and the managed bull populations will not show up across the entire herd until the in place elk die or are killed.

So, for example

year 2000, spike hunt instituted

Bull population 1000 100 spikes, 900 3+ yr old

say the DNR issues 200 spike tags to cut the spike pop in half at a 25% success rate.

looks like this

100 tags, 25 elk killed, 200 tags 50 elk killed

the next year, there are still 950 bulls on the hill, but, the previous years age group has been cut in half. So following that equation on down 10 years later, the bull population will have been cut in half to 500 bulls......BUT IT TOOK TEN YEARS TO SEE!!!!

I am making no point with that just simply throwing it out there to show how effective a spike hunt will be if given time in the overall managment of population........

littlebeaver.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-11 AT 03:57PM (MST)[p]"We manage for world class elk hunting. To do that we must have large numbers of elk, good genes, and low numbers of hunters.......out of necessity this means a wait."

Arizona elk population: 35,000
Utah elk population: 68,000

Unit 10 Arizona-500 rifle tags
Unit 9 Arizona-275 rifle tags
Unit 8 Arizona-650 rifle tags
Unit 3a/3c-375 rifle tags

Those 4 units alone offer more rifle tags than ALL of Utah LE rifle hunts COMBINED!!! And thats not counting muzz or archery tags. And those 4 units are some of the top units in the ENTIRE COUNTRY! So we have TWICE the elk, yet give no tags.......... why? Would you consider AZ as a trophy elk destination? YES Would you consider Unit 9 or 10 in AZ one of the best elk units in the country? YES. Do they kill UNREAL bulls of those units every year? YES. Is there a crap load of opportunity to hunt those units? YES Its all about WHEN you allow people to hunt the unit, and with what weapon. That way you can increase OPPORTUNITY, without sacrificing quality. Do you Berry consider AZ a pisscutter opportunity state to hunt elk? Or would you consider Arizona a trophy destination?

"Just say it chaser what your really getting at is this, less trophy more opportunity, there is nothing wrong with that attitude or mentality.........its simply a management scheme and a personal opinion......."

Not what I am saying in any way shape or form! And you know that! Just admit that you need the rut to sell tags and get clients to come to UT to hunt elk. Bottom line is follow the $$$$ trail.

So Berry you answer me this question, how can AZ continue to kill HUGE bulls each and every year giving out as many tags as they do???
 
Pro your as nauseating to read as ever.. Ya, AZ thats the ticket, cuz its sooo eazy to draw there. More late hunts would be awesome, then we could kill huge 380 type bulls, only they will only be 300 cuz they are busted to hell..
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-11 AT 04:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-11 AT 04:34?PM (MST)

Not Bart buddy! I thought he was Prooutdoors! :)

AZ Resident draw odds:

Unit 3a/3c-100% with 6 points, 45% with 5.
Unit 10-100% with 6 and 39% with 5
Unit 9-100% with 7 and 45% with 6

Utah Res draw odds:

Beaver- 100% with 17 and 35% with 16
Phavant-100% with 18 and 1% with 17
San Juan-100% with 18 and 14.5% with 17

So those are the top 3 units compared to each other as residents for draw odds. Reddog if you have access to the internet its very easy to get info.... :) But we all know with the HUGE opportunity that AZ is giving sportsman there is NO WAY there are any trophy bulls there.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-11 AT 07:31PM (MST)[p]Chaser, consider the percentage chance of killing a monster bull of those units, 350 inch+ Probably less than 10% That means that of the 500 or so tags that can hunt the unit around 50 bulls will come off that are giants.........not all that great at all......probably very very similar to a typical wasatch year......

consider that same equation with say san juan which has like 30?? tags not sure and don't really care to look it up......

I know of 4 bulls that grossed over 370! Thats better odds already and better bulls and I dont have a clue about half the bulls that were killed.......

So too answer your question they do it this way, they up the tags spread them out and lower the percentage chance of killing a giant......

Utah lowers the tags increases the percentage chance and allows a much smaller number of tags to hunt higher success times.....

Chaser, its a management scheme, thats it....you don't agree with the management goals of utah.....

I have huge issues with not the direction but the methods of it......

littlebeaver.jpg
 
Berry,

That's exactly what I am saying, even if there are GIANT bulls on the unit. Like Unit 10 has, they kill multiple 370+ plus off that unit every year, especially on the archery hunt. You told me there was no way to increase opportunity and still keep quality. I showed you a way to do, but since the odds of killing a good bull would be harder, and the hunt would be harder. You are not interested. The reason they can up the tags, and still keep quality is the hunt is in mid october and the big bulls are harder to find.

"I know of 4 bulls that grossed over 370! Thats better odds already and better bulls and I dont have a clue about half the bulls that were killed......."

If you dont have at least 10-15 points right now, and that still puts you 10+ years out from drawing a tag, you will never ever hunt the SJ unless you break the .003 odds of drawing a random tag. At least in AZ there are 500 plus rifle hunters each year busting their hump at a chance to smoke a giant bull on Unit 10. The odds of killing a bull on a unit you will never have a tag on, ZERO. So the size and quantity of bulls is irrelevant.

I think its a travesty that we only allow 30 people to enjoy and hunt trophy bulls all because we want to make it as EASY as possible to kill a trophy bull. Sad.
 
COYOTE-PRO!!!!! is that you??? How the heck are you? Did the wildlife org thing work out?

Slick


"The Road goes on forever & the Party never Ends"
 
Again thats the management scheme of Utah, and your personal opinion on it......

I have no beef with any of it, just really stating facts.......I love hunting elk no matter the size or time. Well not totally true, I am a big fan of LE and spike hunts, I love being able to hunt a challenging meat elk each year with a high percentage chance at a big bull sometime in the future.....

I like the idea of one high percentage chance at a giant bull rather than several much lower chances at a giant bull.....

Arizona manages differently than utah, and according to you much better, My personal view is that the principle of Utah's elk hunting is amazing. The inability to realize it successfully comes from an inability to move as a whole towards it......too many people have different ideals and ideas that they wish to pursue, leaving us with fleeting glimpes of an end goal without any real progression towards it.

littlebeaver.jpg
 
AMEN to what Coyote Chaser and Mt Quiver are saying. You others are up in the night. Come on Cameron don't spout off like your an expert or something. I love ya man but You know dang well that the majority of hunters and especially your clients would be tickled pink with a 300 inch bull.

Just like you and Zeke those of us that truly want a trophy will hunt our butts off to find a trophy bull. But just as Mt Quiver said the majority of people will shoot the first 6 point that they see and think they have just killed a trophy. Why not offer more tags, move the rifle out of the rut just like CC is suggesting and lower the success rates. I don't think he ever implied that the archery or muzzleloader needs to be in the rut. He is saying move the rifle out of the rut this would lower success rates, that means there will be more bulls getting through to next year and more people getting through the system quicker.

And yes you are correct it is easy to see big bulls early season hanging out together and it would be easy to hunt those big bulls earlier in the year, WITH A RIFLE!!! Thank Goodness they haven't moved the rifle to the beginning you would have 100 % success. Try it with a bow and you will see how easy it is. You know some people pretty close to you that didn't make it happen with a bow. Why not if it is so easy?

Look at this year and all the comments. Everyone saw tons of 290 to 310 bulls. Where are all the big bulls? They have been hammered and quality is going down and will continue to go down.

Why because the success rates are in the 80 and 90 % range.

If you did just as CC is saying there would be more people move through the system faster which would allow us all to get to hunt more often.

How can you argue with what Arizona is doing, with less elk?

And for you Zeke. Sorry man if you really are the most experienced elk hunter on the planet. How can you not agree with CC? There is a huge advantage to hunting with a rifle especially in the middle of the rut.

One more thing- Have you really never seen bulls chasing cows and screaming at noon in the rut. You must either get back to camp for a siesta to early or you must have a hard time hearing.

And back to the thread. YES there are fewer cows. They are hanging out on the CWMU's. Our cow hunters are going to destroy the public herd even more than what a few more big bull tags would ever do.

Move the hunts around, Make it so more tags are given out each year, Drop success rates, and the Outcome will be more elk and bigger elk in the future. Our big bulls are on the decline and its going to get worse.

Thats my 2 cents. I know I'm not one of the regulars on here so my opinion might not amount to much, but it is still my opinion and CC and Mt. Quiver are dead on.
 
I would take a Unit 10 tag in Arizona over 2 Wasatch tags. I hunted the Wasatch with a bow 2 years ago and it was a tough hunt. I killed a 333" bull after lots of hard miles. I went from 250lbs at the start of the hunt (and I was not in bad shape to start with) to 223 lbs the day I killed my elk. Lots of hiking and lots of hard work to kill a very nice 330" bull. I was not hunting 350-380" bulls and killed a 330". For the most part I was hunting a bunch of 320" bulls and killed a 330". That being said I always see a few 350"+ bulls on the Wasatch and I have helped a few guys kill them but they are the ones you must hunt very hard and get a little lucky to harvest. Quality is down from 5 years ago. Close to 90% success on rifle is the only possible explanation why. If we continue with that success rate quality will continue to slip.

Any hunter that has confidence in his skills and efforts should not fear an early to mid october rifle elk hunt. All it takes is time and effort and any hard core hunter should still be able to find these old mature bulls. They should also realize that this would not hurt their chances at a true trophy but would help it in the long run. It would also allow guys to hunt elk more than once in their lives.

Let me give you an example: A friend of mine had the Wasatch archery tag this year and after hunting 20+ days he did not get an elk. This friend has never shot an elk. He may not ever get a chance to hunt them again in Utah. At least not for 15-20 years under the current system. With a 5 year waiting period and 7-20 years to get another tag he is screwed. That is a very hard pill to swallow especially for guys that do not hunt out of state. More tags later in the year means guys will get more opportunities to hunt elk.
I also think we should have a lot more archery tags. Not so that as an archer I would have more competition but because I realize that archery hunts have a much lower success rate and it would shuffle more guys through the points pool and I could get a tag more often.

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G4, i'm not sure who you are but please don't even begin to assume what the people that we hunt with want or believe.....you have not the slightest clue if you really believe your first statement.......not trying to be mean discredit, just a simple statement that nine times out of ten the first question we get asked is 'How big'?

I really have no beef with any of what UT is doing, but as for the comparisions between utah and arizona? two totally different situations, Arizona manages for low percentage based on tag numbers and giant bulls......Utah manages for high percentage based on tag numbers and giant bulls.......I don't have expertise G4 but i sure can do math, its not hard.......even with my cut rate wasatch education.......

As for the statement that the quality is going down? I saw some of the biggest bulls i've ever seen this year, they straight up disappeared come hunt time though......It was an incredibly hard hunt due to temp, water, and growth.



littlebeaver.jpg
 
I know I don't know anything that's why I refer to what CC is saying and Mt Quiver. If you guys would think it through a little you might understand what they are saying.

Math is Math no matter where you learned it.

Please explain your theory about Arizona and Utah. You have me confused. Utah is not managing for giant bulls if their age objective on the Wasatch is 5-6 yr old bulls. They don't know what they are managing for and they surely could do a lot better job at getting people more opportunity to hunt big bulls. The only ones who benefit from the current situation are those that can afford to buy auction tags and those that only want to pack a big bull off the mountain once in their lifetime.

The biggest bulls I ever saw this year were also the ones I saw this YEAR. I think what you meant to say was some of the biggest bulls you have ever seen in your life were bulls you saw this year. I'll put money down that you didn't see as many big bulls this year as you have seen in past years. They are getting killed and eliminated more and more each year because of the high success rate. I would rather have less chance at killing a 360 plus bull than have a high percentage of killing a 300 bull and have a chance to hunt more than once in my lifetime. I don't have the luxury of going out of state to hunt or the money to buy elk tags. My boss (wife) won't allow me to. I think I am in the majority of elk hunters, that only get to hunt their home state.

I know I don't live at Strawberry but I still get out enough to know that there aren't the same number of big bulls out there as in the past.

I am with you on the COW thing. I am sure your point of this thread was to prove that your UTAH DWR is crazy for issuing all the cow tags they did. So, YES you do have BEEF with what Utah is doing. I am with you 100 %. It's ridiculous to take away the only thing that produces more bull elk. We need the cows more than anything. A better way to manage the herd and maintain revenue off the sale of tags would be to move the rifle hunt out of the rut. Don't hunt the prime part of the rut. They would be able to issue more tags, success rate would be lower (that is okay) and we would maintain bigger and better bulls. Your chance of killing a 380 bull would still be possible, even on the Wasatch. Its pretty easy to understand. The part that some of you don't like is that it would be better to issue more archery and muzzleloader tags because their success rate is lower. They don't kill as many that means they could put more archery and muzzleloader hunters in the field. AND if you moved the rifle out of the rut you would also be able to issue more rifle tags because the success rate would be lower in October. Let your premium hunt be for those that want to wait longer and hunt the prime of the rut but don't issue nearly as many tags for that period.

If Zeke with all his experience and a RIFLE can't find success out of the rut then we all better quit hunting anyway. You guys have said so yourselves the rut isn't that much of an advantage.


The Wasatch is about to become what happened to Fish Lake if something isn't done soon.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-11 AT 10:06AM (MST)[p]G4
You didn't even get the quote right. Re-read berry again.
He said "I saw some of the biggest bulls i've ever seen this year".
You misquoted "The biggest bulls I ever saw this year were also the ones I saw this YEAR. I think what you meant to say was some of the biggest bulls you have ever seen in your life were bulls you saw this year." That's what he did say.
Appearently you cant comprehend very well.
Beleive me, I have thought it through as you say we should. My idea of a elk hunting is not shooting a 5x5 every 10 years. Quote from CC "Utah could issue more tags and alot of the smaller 250-300 inch bulls would end up getting shot."I would rather wait 20 to shoot a good bull. We all know that drawing a LE rifle elk tag is almost once in a lifetime. But the only people trying to change it are the bow hunters. Your odds are already 3x as good.
 
this post starts out by telling us how hard the Wasatch early hunt was this year ,and how many of the big bulls holed up, now it ends up as usual, telling us how they are killing all the big bulls, because its so easy? everyone has an opinion,so heres mine, Utah is doing a great job of managing for both big bulls, and hunting opportunity, so tweak it a little, OK, but don't change it much. Lets consider it a rare privilege to get a big mature bull, and maybe getting the chance to harvest one once or twice in a lifetime is pretty good. All I see are arguments for selfish opportunists, some of the bow hunters want more, and some hard core fanatics want October seasons, everyone wants more, maybe Utahs relatively recent success at providing big bull opportunties for a wide cross section of hunters is being victimized because of its own success?
 
94 posts and not a single picture of a Wasatch bull taken this year, just lots of arm-chair biologists ranting. AGAIN! How about some success photos? (Which I believe was asked about in the first post.)
 
Quote from CC "Utah could issue more tags and alot of the smaller 250-300 inch bulls would end up getting shot."
 
Because your top end bulls would not get hammered when they are the most vulnerable, like happens now. And since the large majority of hunters would not put forth the effort that would be needed to kill a top end bull in October. So you albubba would have a lot better chance at a big bull, cause there would be more of them!
 
G4, I don't have a beef with any of the management direction. What I have beef with is the inability of the DNR biologists to effectively work towards those goals....

The 3300 cow tags is a perfect example.......it all makes sense on paper, but take 5 minutes too think about how it will affect the elk, and it is insanity.....

Chaser, i'm kinda beating a dead horse now, but i'll try and state it a bit more clearly this time. I know I'm not the most simple person to read in the world.... :)

No matter how you look at it, if you issue more tags regardless of season or weapon, it gets harder and harder to kill a truly giant bull. Mathematically your odds go down with each issued tag.......

for example,

10 tags issued, 4 giant bulls killed. 40% chance of killing a really big one

100 tags issued, 4 giant bulls killed. 4% chance of killing a big one.

(the number of giant bulls on the hill is a constant, they don't multiply based on tag allotment......) I know I probably spelled that wrong, i'm having a brain fart.

That probability is why utah is special, sure you can go to arizona and there are giant bulls, colorado has a few too, really no matter where you go there is a possiblity. The statistical probablity of killing one is greater in UT, sheerly due to the number of tags.

littlebeaver.jpg
 
The best part of Utahs management is all the big bulls that get harvested,and not just by a few super hunters, women,older folks, people with jobs, they have realistic chance too. If you don't want to hold out for the top early any weapon hunt units, there are late any weapon hunts, muzzle loader hunts, archery hunts, I see big ones taken in those hunts also, It doesn't have to be once in a lifetime, I drew my second any weapon bull tag in Utah this year, and Im a nonresident with tough draw odds. There are lots of people and only so many bulls, keep it like it is and keep those big bulls available.
 

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