Outfitters screw up

E

elk2011

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-11 AT 09:41PM (MST)[p]Spoke with a friend who had a premium elk tag in Utah on one of the best units in the state and hired an outfitter ,one of the best and specifically told the outfitter and his guide he only wanted to shoot a 370 or better bull. On day 7 of the hunt his guide told him to shoot a bull that was definitely 370 plus. The bull was actually only in the 330- 340 range , he said he was shocked when he got up on the bull,he also said the guide was sick about misjudging the bulls score by that far off. The guide also had the hunter pass on a bull earlier in the week that was harvested by another hunter that was 384 another hunter in his camp harvested the bull and the guide told the hunter it was a 360 at best type bull. I told my buddy he should post the outfitters name so that the public would know and not use the outfitter in the future.

My buddy paid them thousands of dollars and still had the remainder of the rifle hunt and the muzzleloader hunt left. I told him to ask the outfitter for a refund . What do you think ? My buddy the hunter said he was not going to persue anything but I just don't think it's right ,you hire a guide and they should be professional enough to know an animals score within reason ,40 inches is not even close !! What do you guys think ?
 
Money back? I don't know about that. It depends on what was "guaranteed" up front. It sounds like the guide messed up, no doubt about that, but to take a bull on day seven, it isn't like the outfitter didn't put in some time either.

I think hunting is hunting, and nothing is guaranteed when you go hunting. There are so many factors that can go against you. I think that your friend needs to be happy with the oportunity to hunt these awsome animals. I know that he requested that he only shoot a bull that was 370+, but apparently he couldn't tell the bull was not that big either and liked the looks of it and shot it. I think it is sad that his opinion of the bull changed once it was "scored". I am as score happy as anyone, but I think this is an example of "the score" of the animal devalueing the experience.

Sorry to hear his hunt didn't turn out like he wanted.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-11 AT 10:18PM (MST)[p]Thanks for the reply and my buddy is not a score happy kinda guy but wanted a bigger bull than he had harvested and had his heart set on a giant bull. I also asked him why he shot the bull and he said it happened so fast and the guide was so sure he took his knowledge and advice and shot the animal. It's a bad deal all the way around , the guide needs to learn to score a bull at least know the difference in a 340 and a 380 as there is a huge difference. The bull in question wasn't scored until much later at 338 ....thanks
 
I know the guide he admitted he screwed up bad and was very apologetic to the hunter. The hunters just very disappointed as he relied on his guide to score he animal and give him the order to shoot. Thanks Elk 2011
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-11 AT 10:27PM (MST)[p]

ok ya see a 385 and think its 360
then a few days latter see a 340 and think its over 370

i don't get it! even the shooter should have had some kind of thought - like hey that thing is no way as big as the bull i passed on. sure elk at different angles -distances can sometimes be missed scored .

the shooter should have know this wasn't a monster - unless he is a first timer relying souly on his guides ability.

thats why the hunter has his own pair of binos- look and judge for yourself before you pull the trigger.

yes the guide is a bumbass for misjudgin a 330-340 bull
 
In the end, the hunter is responsible whether he pulls the trigger or not. Apparently both the hunter and guide "screwed up".

Eldorado
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-11 AT 06:40AM (MST)[p]You think about it, one inch on each measurement (6 points and 4 circumfrences x 2) is 20 inches... You can easily get 10" difference in spread credit... You could get a small bodied elk that just makes the horns look bigger....

and besides... geez... disappointed with a 340 bull? I know the expectations were higher, but?????
 
I have been guiding for 17 years now, mistakes DO happen.
Some bulls can really throw you off. Ive seen bulls that looked 370+ that ended up 340-350 just because he was "compact" and didn't have beam length but had good tine length....it happens.
There are NO "guarantees" in the real hunting world. If an outfitter gives you a guarantee on a free ranging animal, you'd better run the opposite way.
And like mentioned above, it ultimately IS the shooters call to pull that trigger. If you don't like what your seeing in your scope....walk away.
 
What the guy is hoping for a Guide now to Guarantee the size of bull he will kill. All the guide can do is guessimate the size it still up to the hunter to pull the trigger, Sounds to me like the hunter was done and wanted to end the hunting trip(been there and done that). Sorry he didn't get the one he wanted, instead he got the one he shot. But to ask for a refund because of the size NO FRICKING WAY.Now if the guy wants to book another hunt with them HE SHOULD get a discount for sure and a different guide.

PS I will give him $200 for the rack he don't want.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Your friend needs to dish out more money for a better guide. We would also need to hear the other side of the story.

Blaming the guide is ridiculous.
 
I think if he is truly disappointed and wants a refund, he shot that elk for the wrong reasons.

Heck no you are not entitled to a refund. The appropriate response in that case is to tip the guide much less than you were planning on if you had got your 380 bull.
 
I would guess that your friend went with a guide because he isn't capable of getting that caliber of a bull without one. The problem is that people think that because someone guides that he is a good hunter. I have seen many guides that are terrible hunters. I have also seen great ones. In the end your friend told them what his goal was. The master guide should have sent a guide that knows what he is looking for. Mistakes do happen but this sounds way to far off. I think the guide is at fault on this one from only hearing one side. Your friend has no recourse but the master guide should offer a free hunt to keep their reputation good for the huge mistake.
 
I think it is ridiculous to ask for a refund. It's called personal responsibility. If you are hiring a guide to hold your hand every step of the way then take up a different sport. Sounds like your buddy realizes this by not persueing any action against the outfitter. Your friend has no one to blame for not shooting an elk but himself. It is his responsibility to determine what he should and should not shoot, no one elses.
 
This is America for christ sake, where it's everyone else's fault. He should get a refund and a free hunt next year.
 
you said the outfitter was just sick about what the bull really was. Mis-judgement happens ALL THE TIME and to try and bad mouth the outfitter is NOT going to solve anything.

Besides it wasn't your hunt and you have NO right bad mouthing this outfitter since it wasn't your hunt and mistakes happen. He said / she said gets no one, no where.

muleyman
 
If you are hunting for a certain score your hunting for all of the wrong reasons. If he wants to blame someone he needs to look in the mirror. When it is all said and done your friend was the one to pull the trigger!
 
Wow a hunter already has a big bull on his wall and wants something better. If he has a template of a bull he can see every day its his fault for killing a lesser animal imho. I can garanteed I can tell if a buck is better, close, or smaller then the ones on my on my wall.

No he don't get a refund he pulled the trigger.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-11 AT 12:42PM (MST)[p]Its interesting... and I'm in the same boat as Slamdunk, mistakes like this happen (PERIOD). I still think its hunting. I can't imagine an outfitter still in business who says "I guarantee you this". If a guy has that kind of money to buy a tag like that and only wants a 370+ bull perhaps he should have gone to a high fence ranch. I believe the way the market is right now, one could get a real deal on a 370+ bull.

I'm not sure why he would consider asking for his money back.

Todd Black

Visit our YouTube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/bulls4bto?feature=mhum
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-11 AT 01:10PM (MST)[p]Gentlemen
Thanks for all of your replies. I personally think the guide has some reponsibility to his hunter to know within reason the difference in a 330 bull and a 370 plus bull. Thats why you hire a guide just like you hire another professional to
render services for you. I dont know what the total cost of the hunt tags etc where but i know what i paid a few years back and its a lotta money for us average folks.

My friend the hunter told me to drop it so this will be my last reply.

I asked another dear friend this question: He is a hunter and now a federal judge .

Question :Is there some liability here on the guide /outfitters behalf if the guide admittedly screwed up that bad .

His answer was as follows: If the hunter made it clear to his guide and outfitter that he only wanted to harvest a 370 plus bull and there was a verbal understanding of such then there
definitely could be some liability on behalf of the licensed
guide /outfitter.
He also said he would have to see any wriiten contracts between the guide/outfitter and hunter and would have to hear from both parties before rendering a decision.

The judge also said that the outfitter should choose his guides very wisely and the oufitter has the responsibility to ensure his or hers guides know the animals ,terrain and units they hunting within .



This part of the judges reply i thought was very interesting:

When the hunter hires a Licensed outfitter the outfitter is 100% responsible for the guides action while under his employment and both the outfitter and the guide could be held liable for there actions.

He also said this does not mean a guide or an outfitter can guarantee an animal especially a trophy animal will be harvested but has a professional and sometimes a contractual responsibility to do there best in pursuit of such game.

The judge went on to say he had three similiar cases come through his courtroom when he was in county courts and in all three cases the outfitter lost and the cases were settled in the hunters favor.

So outfitters beware you are liable for your guides actions.

In final i dont think in anyway this intentional on the guides or outfitters behalf, based upon what i have heard and i have spoken only to the hunter and he really liked the outfitter and his guide and he did not ask me to make this post on his behalf , i merely wanted to hear my friends on MM responses and what they thought was right.

Thanks again for the replies .
Elk2011
 
He has every right to be upset with the guide, passing on a 384 then misjudging a bull by 40 inches. It should end right at that...he is upset with his guide. No reason to go any farther down the line than that. This is hunting, he should be happy with his little 340 bull. I hope I see one of those next week.
 
Personally I think that there is a measure of responsibility on both sides......the outfitter is responsible too provide quality service, including a knowledgable guide. The hunter must recognize that hunting is hunting and have at least a basic knowledge of score if it is that important to him.....Hunting is hunting and you really just never know, but I believe that both sides should be held at fault here or neither.......

littlebeaver.jpg
 
Score means nothing. Not to be rude but hunting elk is about being close to elk and getting to see what I think to be the coolest animal in the western states. Since when is score everything, the chase and the meat and the friend and family time. Try to remember why we love elk. I don't mean to be rude. But all these score posts make upset.
 
No disrespect to the obviously upset hunter but.....
If he has no idea what a "trophy bull" looks like, he really shouldn't be "expecting" one.
I couldn't imagine myself telling my guide i wanted a 180" ram when i really have no idea what a ram of that caliber looks like because i'm not a sheep hunter.
Some times a hunter gets lucky and sometimes things just don't work out.
I had a first time elk hunter this year that wanted to kill a 380" bull. I told him that's a tall order but was a possibility....we got damn lucky and beat that by 30"+.
 
What has hunting become??? Threatening lawsuits, slander, for inches?? Its pathetic in reality. The guide screwed up. Who hasn't made a mistake in their line of work.

Its too bad both parties couldn't work something out; maybe a discounted hunt next year???

Everyone makes mistakes.
 
If the guy is going to be that specific he better know what a 370 bull looks like.
 
Well if your federal judge friend said it's the outfitters fault then sue the d0g$ht out of him.


Why not?....the judge said so. Then your friend could spend his winnings on a high fenced hunt.

Problem solved.
 
With that Tag in hand there should've been nothing less than 400"s of Bull on the ground.
If people like slam can't guarantee me a 400" bull after doing it for 17 years who the hell can?


[font color = red size = red size = 10 face ="face"]TAKE NOTE:MY SIGNATURE WON'T PLEASE EVERYBODY SO DON'T EVEN READ BELOW IF YOU'RE EASILY OFFENDED BY EVERYDAY BS ON MM[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-11 AT 05:47PM (MST)[p]I know we aren't comparing oranges to oranges here but it reminds me of my first trip to Africa. I'm not a guy usually set on numbers but for one animal I was. I told the PH/guides I didn't want anything short of a 50" kudu. That number rang in my head ever since the first day dreaming about Africa. I said if we can't find one, don't tell me to shoot a lesser animal, I'd be happy and content shooting other species. I really would have no clue what I was looking at, horn length wise. The 5th day of the hunt my guide told me what we were looking at was 51-52 inches. Turns out it was 45. My heart sank a bit but I was still happy. My PH apologize and I assured him it really wasn't a problem, and it wasn't. Hell it was my FIRST kudu! Long story short he ended up not charging me for the kudu... and I was the one getting upset because he wouldn't take my money. Anyway, I think the guide in this case does have some responsibility but I'm not sure how much.
 
>What has hunting become??? Threatening lawsuits,
>slander, for inches?? Its
>pathetic in reality. The
>guide screwed up. Who
>hasn't made a mistake in
>their line of work.
>
>Its too bad both parties couldn't
>work something out; maybe a
>discounted hunt next year???
>
>Everyone makes mistakes.

+1

If that does not work, in the future he should stick to high fence hunts. That way they can tranq the bull, measure it, and everyone knows what they are getting before the primer ignites the powder. Good grief.


4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
most outfitters are good. but 3o inches. thier should be some middle ground. for this hunter...say some money back.discount on next hunt./?/>?
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-11 AT 07:28PM (MST)[p]OK guys i was done but must send a rebuttal . My friend the hunter doesnt hunt high fences . When the bull was shot the hunter he was concentrating on the shot not the horns.

There is a video of the whole hunt there were several bulls chasing cows and i personally watched the video and the guide says three times my god that bull is huge (three times ) The hunter asks is he big enough and the guides response is well over 380 ....shoot him now !!!

Now you can see why i asked opinions from my fellow hunters.

To me the hunter has an open and shut case if he were persuing any action of which he is not.


After i watched the video it became obvious to me the outfitter should have trained his guides much better in the quality of a bull and its size.

Also the outfitter should be contacting his hunter and offering an apology a discount or something and he has not to my knowledge when i last spoke to the hunter.

Thanks and Good Luck to you all this season
Elk2011
 
some people go to outtfitters cause a guide has been watching big bulls all year and promise that to there customers.

but hunting is hunting, the animals will move when they want and you see what you see or get what you get in the end......
 
9-11. the onley one that needs to hunt high fence.is that guild. so he can learn what a big bull looks like.....
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-11 AT 07:40PM (MST)[p]The video is not mine to post and the whole thing while it is hunting just erks me ,why do you pay for a guide ???

The oufitter is a regular member on the forum and i am sure will make it right ...Lets see !!!!

Thanks
Elk2011
 
Did the guide guarantee him a 370 or better bull? Did he put it in writing?Did he have to pay a trophy fee?
 
Like I've said already....if ANY outfitter uses the word "guarantee " then you are a bigger fool than he is for believing him.
 
In my opinion everyone that doesn't think score is a big part of hunting especially with a "big name guide" is crazy. If the guide knows what the hunter is after he should do his best to not have his client shot less. I think it is ridicules to say the hunter should know what he is looking at, he probably wouldn't hire a guide if he did. That is why we hire professionals, when we don't know. Doctor's, plumbers, mechanics, guides and so on. As i see it the guide is at fault. The master guide should know how to score and make sure all his sub-guide know also. To many out there that are poor at best. A person looking to go on a guided hunt should do his or her homework. Last year i went to the dentist to have a tooth crowned, as i don't know how to myself I used a professional. After he was done he gave me a mirror to see how he did. It only takes me a minute to see he did the wrong tooth. He was very embarrassed but I still had to tell him that it would be free plus the one he would be doing that still needed done. I could have sued him but didn't as mistakes happen. I always feel mistakes happen by all professionals and those that admit them and make it right can be forgiven. Those who don't should be burned. Sorry for the long drown out post. My point is if the guide is man enough to admit this was his fault and make it right by the hunter. What ever that may be between the two. All should be forgiven if not then hell with him burn his name.
 
I also think the hunter should get some kind of a refund, this is why people hire a guide.If the guide said 3 different times this bull was over 370 there must have been some discussion about the size. Yes the hunter is responsible, he pulled the trigger, but he hired a pro to help him judge this elk. Sounds like this guide didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Had a friend of mine go to Alaska Brown bear hunting, guide tells him bear is over 9ft. He kills it, it is 6 1/2 yes he shoots it after arguing with the guide for several minutes. When he told the outfitter what happened , the outfitters immediately gave him a free hunt the next year and fired the guide. T was in Alaska one year at a guides camp, four guides in camp and not one knew how to score a caribou. I agree score isn't everything, but when someone hires a guide he should know what he is doing. Was hunting moose in Canada one time with a wife, she spots a great bull. the guide told her it wasn't very big, I told her lets go kill him, the guide didn't want to go down there said it was too steep we had horses. Most guides in Canada don't have any idea what a horse can do. We killed the moose, turns out the guide wins the gold belt buckle that year for best moose taken by an outfitter.Guides dont know everything but if a client mentions score and it is discussed,then the guide should now something about it.I definetly think the outfitter should do something for this hunter maybe a half price hunt or offer to send him to a high fence ranch.
 
Well bummer deal. I'm not going to dis on the hunter or the guide.


"When the bull was shot the hunter he was concentrating on the shot not the horns."

In the end it is the hunter's call to pull the trigger or not. It is our responsibility to be sure that the animal we are about to kill is one we really want. I'm not saying the hunter did anything wrong, but the shot was his to take and he took it. It is too bad he was unhappy with the animal he got. I wonder if more hunters were shooting because they really appreciated the look of the animal rather than the measurement whether this sort of thing would be decreased. That being said, I suppose most trophy hunters have goals and sometimes the inches are how they determine them.

My hat's off to the hunter for not making a big stink out of it. I hope he keeps hunting hard and eventually gets the bull that still gets him pumped up after its been on his wall for a couple of years.
 
Hey does that dentist that fixed the wrong tooth also guide elk hunters? Well at least your friend has all his teeth.

I recall some chat years back on mm with the same story guide jacked up the size, seems that outfitter kicked back some cash after the hunter posted his name, what's funny is everyone was posting no way u can't misread a bull 30 points. Btw after the guides name was posted most then turned on the hunter for it.

I think if the hunter said and was clear 370 or bust the outfitter should work it out - but if it was more of a guideline as in I still want to kill a bull and would love a 370+ then let it go.
 
>Like I've said already....if ANY outfitter
>uses the word "guarantee "
>then you are a bigger
>fool than he is for
>believing him.


BINGO!


Where's the video?
 
Still, all we are hearing is the hunter's side of the story, what is going to happen if this ends up in court?? I'll tell you what's going to happen, the outfitter is going to deny he ever guaranteed a 370 bull despite what the hunter is telling us now.

If it came down to a 'my word against his' type situation as I suspect it will, the judge will fall back on any guarantees in a written contract between the outfitter and hunter. If there is none, the judge will have to rely on logic to decide the case, and as mentioned, there is too much uncertainty in a non high fence hunt for any outfitter to logically make such a guarantee and the outfitter will prevail.

Sorry, but your hunter friend would have a tough uphill battle in court....
 
if & when I decide to hire slam,he'd best guarantee me a 400"+ bull or I'm going to sue him,maybe confiscate his heli-chopper,maybe take his Skull-Crazy rig too,might even have to take his lady friend for a night or two.
I want a guarantee on a monster bull,or I'm sueing,plain & simple.

[font color = red size = red size = 10 face ="face"]TAKE NOTE:MY SIGNATURE WON'T PLEASE EVERYBODY SO DON'T EVEN READ BELOW IF YOU'RE EASILY OFFENDED BY EVERYDAY BS ON MM[/font]
 
>if & when I decide to
>hire slam,he'd best guarantee me
>a 400"+ bull or I'm
>going to sue him,maybe confiscate
>his heli-chopper,maybe take his Skull-Crazy
>rig too,might even have to
>take his lady friend for
>a night or two.
>I want a guarantee on a
>monster bull,or I'm sueing,plain &
>simple.

It's all about the helichopper! ;-)
 
Respectfully, your buddy is hunting for the wrong reasons, as HE killed a beautiful bull and shouldn't be worried about the numbers.

On a lighter note, perhaps the guide learned his measuring/field judging skills here at MM. :)

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
Thats why I never go hunting without my lawyer.
I can understand misjudging an antelope by an inch or two but....40 inches on a bull ?????

a 340 bull is still a great bull and when it's hanging on his wall 99% of the people looking at it won't know ..what a score is... and most won't be able to tell if it's a 340 or a 400 inch bull anyway but Im sure most people would love to have it.
 
Not respectfully, it is people like your buddy that have no business killing animals. It is obvious he does not respect the sport nor the life he has taken. We all dream of harvesting a giant animal, but I believe most ethical hunters would agree that there is way more to hunting than killing a giant. If it's all about a giant for your buddy, then I agree, High Fence all the way. Sounds like your buddy should have spent a little time learning about the animal he is hunting instead of relying on another human to do it for him.
 
"On a lighter note, perhaps the guide learned his measuring/field judging skills here at MM."

LOL BOHNTR
 
If our courts start hearing cases of clients that did not shoot big enough elk (no matter the decision rendered) our country is screwed! Really you are presenting this one sided case with second hand knowledge and now pretending that this District Judge is going to weigh in! This is so disrespectful to the animal that was killed it makes me sick. Please ask this person to stop hunting wild game if they are as upset as you present - that would have made a trophy of a lifetime to many people. The person with the tag in his pocket and finger on the trigger has to make the final call whether to pull the trigger. Once you pull the trigger you might as well enjoy the momement and respect the animal.

Geez!
 
Your friend pulled the trigger. He gets to live with that bull. He had hunted with this guide for several days and had enough experience to know his judging skills were suspect. In the end HE made the decision to rely on the guide and HE pulled the trigger. Tell your buddy to man up for his decision.

The fact you even asked a judge about legal recourse makes me want to barf.

He is complaining that his guide misjudged an animal by 40 points. Ok, I'll admit it seems like a guide should be expected to know better. What if he had said 380 and the bull went 420? You wouldn't be complaining about that guide who doesn't know how to judge.
 
This talk about score not mattering cracks me up. That is all it has come too with most. Why is it that all the hunting mags have big animals? Why are all contests about score? Why are all big money guides all about advertising the size of animals they take? The big money part of our hunting industry has glorified score. To many people fail to get that the hunt is about your experience out there. To spend time with family, friends or by yourself. I don't feel this hunter is being disrespectful to the animal in any way. All the bashing about this hunter is undeserved he is not on here saying anything. I do not know him or his friend but the hunter seems to be taking the higher road and letting it go. We don't know that he is not happy with the bull he got, he may be very happy just disappointed that it was not what he was told it was. Bohunter good point. I bet this guide is on here talking about how great he is at scoring.
 
I actually have some experience in this area. My brothers and I gave our father a gift for christmas last year. $10,000 elk hunt in NE utah on a private ranch. The hunt was recommended by a highly reputable consulting group in Utah, and the add for the hunt says 99% success rate on bulls from 320-350". My father is 64yrs old and has never harvested an elk. We had been archery hunting elk out west for 12 yrs mainly in colorado and he just hadn't closed the deal. This was truly a once in lifetime chance for him to bag not only his first elk but more than likely the biggest. My dad told the guide the first couple of days nothing under 320" for sure and would prefer something closer to 330 if possible, later in the hunt that number would come down. Well first hour into the hunt, guide spots a bull says is easy 320" we work in on him and my dad pulls a great shot and puts him down literally less than an hour into his once in a lifetime hunt. We get down to the bull and it's obvious to us this is a 300" bull, not what he was hoping for as far as inches go and I would have loved for him to get a bull that had more horn, considering it was so early in the hunt, the amount we paid was a lot for us, and he was clear with the guide about nothing under 330-320 the first day or so...We got the bull back to camp, several other guides including ours, and the owner all guessed the bull in the upper teens or 320" until we taped him out, came out at 302". They were all in shock which suprised us and let us know, they were more than likely over estimating what type of bulls they had been killing on this ranch over the past few years. We saw a ton of elk, but nothing we thought was 330 or better yet 350...the guide felt bad about what had happened and we told him to forget about it!!! We came to get my dad a good 6pt bull and he had helped to make it happen.

At the end of the day none of that mattered to us though, we (three brothers) were sitting around our father and watched him put his only bull of his life (to this point) on the ground!! You can't put a price on that or measure it in inches!!! I think there is way to much emphasis put on how many inches of horn an animal has rather than the time that is spent with friends and family just enjoying these great animals for what they are!!! The fact that he FINALLY got to put his hands on his bull and knowing that I had a role in making it happen...Thats what it's all about folks!!!

I wouldn't change a thing about his hunt, it's his bull and he is dang proud to have it!!

adubs
 
Wow is all I have to say about this whole post and thread. I can see both sides of this,

1) If your buddy has already shot a 340 bull, now he wants a REAL big bull I can see hiring the guide and saying that it is 370 or nothing.

2) If your buddy can't tell the difference between the 340 bull and the 370 bull then he better not set the stipulation cause clearly, even the guide can mis-judge. $hit happens.

3) If there was an express agreement that it is a 370 bull or nothing else then the outfitter should, and probably will, try to find a way to make it up to your buddy.

4) YOUR BUDDY SAID TO DROP IT!!!! If I knew my buddy was still going on about an issue that was really my problem, not his, even after I told him to drop it. Well I am not sure we would be hunting buddies too much longer. YOU HAVE NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT!
 
I had a fairly good mule deer tag one year. During the hunt I came up on a really nice buck, but when the deer started running I got confused as to which buck to shoot and I shot a pretty small buck. I was VERY disappointed. It was the first morning of my hunt and I already had a week scheduled off of work. It still kinda stings when I think about it, but this is part of what makes hunting fun. If it were easy to go out a kill the big monster deer or elk, then hunting would be about as fun as going to a decor store and buying a set of horns. Yeah, the guide made a mistake, but I'm willing to bet the hunter has made some mistakes in his career as well. It sounds like the actual hunter has handled this pretty well though so no need to dog on him.
 
The variables of estimating a set of antlers on a live animal are almost endless. Body size, tine length, the surrounding animals, the surrounding terrain, the surrounding flora and fauna, the angle, the distance, the light, the direction the elk is looking or walking, etc, etc, etc. Your eyes can play tricks on you either way. How many times on MM have we seen experienced hunters under or overestimate a set of antlers from a picture? (look at the many "guess the score" posts for evidence) I got my buck last week and I watched him 2 days, no way could I give him more than 150" and I was thinking 145" was about right. I was working off of norms but there is no way to know for sure without being right next to him. I was assuming a typical 22" ear width and a typical sized body. I've guessed on alot of animals and I can usually be close (5-7" on a deer) I took him on the second day because I had my boys with me, He was not 145" but rather 165" 26.5" ear width and around a 250-300 lb live weight body. It all made sense when I got up to him and saw how massive his body was.
All that to say, field judging is a guessing game based on some normal points of reference but there are no guarantees, even when working with an experienced outfitter.
Glad your buddy is saying let it go, that's the right thing to do.
 
>Not respectfully, it is people like
>your buddy that have no
>business killing animals. It is
>obvious he does not respect
>the sport nor the life
>he has taken. We all
>dream of harvesting a giant
>animal, but I believe most
>ethical hunters would agree that
>there is way more to
>hunting than killing a giant.
>If it's all about a
>giant for your buddy, then
>I agree, High Fence all
>the way. Sounds like your
>buddy should have spent a
>little time learning about the
>animal he is hunting instead
>of relying on another human
>to do it for him.
>


Most of us want to kill the biggest animal we can, while having a great time doing it. Keep in mind the hunter's friend is posting this, not the hunter. For you to say he has no business killing an animal makes you an A$$.


BC
 
I have guided for 22 years and in all truthfulness the hardest bulls to field judge are between 335-345 and 375-385 just because most bulls grow by 25-35 inches a year if not more, and some can attest that they have seen and killed 320-330 class bulls and 350-365 more so than 335-345 and 375-385. So yes, I can see the guides mistake.

But the big question is, why wasn't the outfitter himself guiding the governors tag holder?
He should have been looking out for the better interest of the reputation of his company to personally guide this particular client, especially if the client was specific of the size of bull he wanted, unless the client was a jacknob or assclown, then he should have refunded his money and told the client to hire someone else.

Should a refund or discount be given? Yes. As what has been said before the guide is working under the outfitter and the outfitter is ultimately responsible for the performance of his guide, and in keeping his client happy and the reputation of his company the outfitter does not want to see any red marks on his company, if approached I am sure the outfitter would make a deal on a future hunt at least.

As far as the hunter or better yet the friend of the hunter, posting this ridiculous stab in the back of the outfitter, with out letting him make amends you should rescind all that you have said of the guide and outfitter, especially since the hunter does not want to pursue anything. What I can see by you posting this on the web is to defame the outfitter from future
clients and make a mockery of him and his guides.

nmbighorn
 
It is a tough situation when you are hunting for a trophy and playing the inch game. I missed a few opportunities becuase I was trying to judge by inches! As far as the guide, that is a tough situation as well, you are catering to a person and most of the time your in the lead and your thought process is well ahead of the hunter. Alot of stuff can go wrong in a hurry, seconds! You asked a question, why do you hire a guide and pay them? People hire guides in general to up thier odds as a guide will take them into a an area to hunt that has been most likely prescouted and the guide knows the area like the back of his hand. All this accounts for alot as the hunter most likely would not have the opportunity without going with the guide. It is not really fair to quantify in dollars what this is worth and to that of the mistake that the guide had. I think it was mentioned before, but if the guide mentioned he was an expert and guarenteed he could get him a 370+ bull then he needs to make it right some how. Maybe discount next years hunt or something to that effect. Then again how do you quantify the discount. Like I said above, the area and know of the land probably accounts for 90% of the hunt! Killing the animal is the easiest part, finding them is the chore. How many of us so called experts that have killed animal after animal and still get fooled by ground shrinkage???
 
I think your Buddy has lost sight of what the hunt is all about, its called hunting and not shopping for a reason, sure a good guide can certainly help you out but ultimately at the end of the day and when you squeeze the trigger, you need to be the judge on whether you are enjoying the moment and you are there for the right reasons. Just my 2 cents on the matter.
 
This is exactly the reason I retired from the hunting business side of things. Incredibly rediculouse what people are willing to sue over anymore. I never guided anybody that was stuck on a bull's score. When they hired me, they hired a guide that knew the country, knew elk behavior, could call, ate my wifes food for a week, slept in my sleeping bags, rode my quads, rode in my truck, kept from getting bloody and the vast majority of the time, they didn't have to pack anything out but his gun. THAT is what your buddy payed for. Unless that outfitter put that guarantee in writing (which if he did, he's an idiot), then your buddy needs to buck up and be proud of the bull he shot and realize that he pulled the trigger. I had a hunter one year watch a bull with me all morning long and we put him to bed with the intentions of going back in and killing that bull during the evening hunt. When we got back in there he kept asking me if it was a good bull. I told him that I thought it was a good bull but he was the one with the tag and ultimately it was his decision. The bull came out and he shot it. When we got down to him he liked what he saw until we put a tape to him. 341 and his mood changed. He was mad and disappointed. On the way to the airport he told my wife how disappointed he was with the bull and how he should have never pulled the trigger but that I said it was a good bull. It was, and still is. I have the rack in my shop. He called 2 weeks later wanting to book again the following year. I told him he needed to find a new outfitter. The only complaint I have ever had and the only hunter I would never have back in camp. There are some people you can NEVER please. And please tell your judge buddy that for every 1 judge with his oppinion there are 20 others that would throw it out for being a "frivolous lawsuit".


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Who pulled the trigger? Guides are exactly for what awholelotta bulls said....no guarantees, other than they should know the country....know elk behavior in the area, and hunt hard. The shooter is 100% responsible for when the trigger is pulled....end of story.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-11 AT 10:05AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-11 AT 10:02?AM (MST)

I can understand people are human and make mistakes. I have a friend who was a good hunter, never hunted trophy elk. He drew a LE utah elk tag. He told his guide he hired he didn't want to shoot a bull the first couple days unless it's a 370 plus bull. His boy was coming down to hunt with his dad and share a once in a lifetime hunt. The first night a bull comes down the ridge, the guide said it was a hog, 380 plus. My friend said it didn't look that big, but he hired a professional guide who insisted that it was 380 plus. My friend shot the bull. The bull score 335. It had good beam length ,but short tines and a narrow bull. To the guides credit he gave the hunter back $1,000 dollars and appoligized.
If I was guiding a elk hunter and misjudged a bull by 40 points, I would appoligize and give him a partial refund of his money back. Being off twenty points is different than 40 points. I know it's not all about the score. My friend wanted to have some memories hunting with his boy, who was driving to the unit. His guide talked him into shooting a bull on the first night that was 40 points smaller than the guide told him. In these cases you can't just say, well that's hunting. This is my opinion.
 
It amazes me how many people side on the hunter with a one sided story from a guy who wasn't even there? The actual hunter hasn't posted anything, but in fact asked his friend to drop it? Hang em......hang em high
 
Great how all the 'experts' on here that have seen a couple good bulls on the hoof and on the ground would never make a 40" mistake. At the same time all the experienced guides say it can happen. Arm chair quarterbacks. Every 'master' guide was once a 'rookie' guide. If you've guided enough you've been fooled. I've guided lots of bull hunters and every one who's started off talking about score I've told they need a different guide. 95% of them wouldn't know a 300 from a 400 on the hoof. EVERY guide gets fooled once in a while.
 
Love that story Alotabull, dont bad mouth me, and act like your so put out, then try to book again. Good for you by telling him NO.
 
I think score is over rated. Not many hunters with or without a guide will kill a bull that will net book. Find a bull that you like and you would be happy with is my advise to friends.

I have seen 340-350 bulls that are heavy dark horns, ivory tip bulls that i would much rather look on the wall than some weird looking 365-375 bulls. Score isn't everything. Shoot what you like.

On the other hand if a hunter is paying a guide for his knowledge and experience in judging bulls, and he has many days to hunt on his dream hunt. When a guide tells a hunter that it's a 380 plus bull on the first night of a hunt and the hunter shoots the bull and the bull ends up being a 335 bull. (Which is common bull on the unit.) That guide should give some of his money back. The hunter paid for expert advise including knowlege about scoreing elk. The hunter was a good hunter who could have easily killed an ave bull. He paid for knowledge on scoring bulls. If the guide was 40 inches low on the score. The guide should offer to give the hunter some of his money back, or a discount on another hunt. That is what I would do.

It would be a different story if there was only a day or two left in the hunt, and a guide said ,there is a good bull, I'm not sure on his score, probably 330-350, shoot it if you like it. We have seen a lot of bulls, and this is one of the better ones. We may or may not see a better bull. Just some of my thoughts.
 
I don't think everyone on here is bad mouthing the guide. I think most are saying if this hunter said he wanted at least a 370 bull, and it was "IMPLIED" that he would be shown one a lot different than a guarantee that he would kill one. I have been around a lot of guides and most promise a lot more than even they think they can deliver, I understand this is how they make their living, but a lot of them make promises that I think they honestly don't think they can fulfill. Most experienced hunters know this but some not so experienced hunters believe all the hype.I have been in camps where this has happened, I have seen the hunters that have been promised the moon and it hardly ever happens. I hunted mostly without guides but have hunted with several and became great friends with a few. But I think that most guides and outfitters are big bullsh##TERS I think it comes with the territory.
 
I think I remember reading somewhere in this thread that the kill was videoed. If so post it up. This should better show what really happened. If I remember correctly it was also said that everything happened quickly. It's hard enough to accurately score an elk on the hoof that is just standing there giving you all the time you need to make your guess. To correctly score an elk in a hunting situation that isn't giving you a good look and you got to do it quickly is extremely difficult. Sucky deal for both parties involved.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-11 AT 07:26PM (MST)[p]IMHO what a retarded post this is, so now you shoot a bull, don't like it because its not big enough so you have to blame the guide?? If the hunter is such a ******** pro maybe he should hunt on his own. And the fact you even bring up judges and court is utter bullschitt - again IMHO.
If its really such a big deal, take it off the internet and deal with it.
 
ELK2011
I think your judge friend is hitting the pipe, Word of mouth against word of mouth NEVER beats a written word in a contract.
I hope your judge friend is retired and gone from the court room if he was making ruling like that. IMO.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Next in line.

This thread is disgusting. I have been an active hunter for 45 years and the thought has never occurred to me that someone would "sue" a guide or outfitter because the animal they pulled the trigger on was mis-judged. What a laugh this world has come to.

I wager the people that would do something like that are "johnny come lately" types, as in, they were not brought up around real hunting.

my 2 cents

Arroyo
 
I hope I'm not out of line by saying this but I hope there never comes a day when I am disapointed with a 330-340 bull. I have only hunted elk a few times, but I have done it enough to realize how good, (at least IMO), a 300 plus inch bull is. I am currently saving my PP'S for a special unit in Wyoming, and I can honestly say if I get out there and shoot a small bull, I will be as ecstatic as I would be if I shot a 370 bull. I guess my attitude towards this comes from hunting hard hunted federal land and going home empty handed time after time. I had a ball each time out west, and I learned just how special Elk really are. So I guess that is why I don't see how this guy is disappointed. ANyway Just my 2 cents, and I hope I am not out of line by posting this, I just felt compelled to do so.


"Easy now, keep the croshairs right behind his shoulder & squeeze the trigger"
 
If I purchased a governors tag or another high dollar tag for 20k+ and then hired a guide for $5500+ and shot a 340 bull I'd be ticked. Guide/outfitters do have some liability. I booked a hunt for my father and I, he was 69, but very mobile, in Colorado and I wanted him to get a nice 6 point bull. Outfitter I went with was recommended and said that he would have his pick of several bulls 300-320. I even asked what if we don't have luck and he said 'you will or we'll take care of you." $17000 later we are on our hunt. 5 day hunt and I never saw a 6 point elk and dad saw one. Asked the outfitter what he could do and he was willing to let us come back the next year for $14000..... Still upset 4 years later when I think about it. Dad still hasn't shot a big bull.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-11 AT 09:40PM (MST)[p]This "hunter" sounds like a real a-hole to me. Sounds like he would have been better off just buying a big set of antlers then going hunting.
 
I dont care about the outfitters name,post t he hunters name so we know who the idiot is.
 
You know I don't think the hunter sounds like an A-Hole. The fact is he set a goal, and had something specific in mind as being his ultimate outcome on the hunt. He still had lots of time to hunt, so finding out you shot a "smaller" bull relatively early in the hunt would be disappointing to anyone.

BUT, the hunter told his friend he was not going to pursue anything like a refund, nor would he bad mouth the outfitter. His "friend" the original poster is the A-hole!
 
HOLY CRAP! That was an AMAZING read! Talk about extreme lack of intellegence! Did the guide reach over and pull the trigger? Nope. Was the hunter a little bit ambitious in dropping the hammer on something that he, personally, could not field score? YEP. Does the hunter really know the difference between 340 and 380? Apparently not - see "he, personally, could not field score" above, as well as first post stating that he passed a 380+ !!!!. Then there is talk about a judge and lawsuits......! Holy Double Crap on Crap! YAAAAAAAA... the GUIDE AND the OUTFITTER share responsibility for someone ELSE pulling the trigger on such a peanut of a 340 bull!!!! WOW! Call the judge friend back and ask him if any or all of the four parents of the hunter and the poster share any of the liability for raising such ungrateful, frankly stupid, and "blame-passing" children!!!! Maybe the parents can get together and file suit against their kids for turning out stupid..... hmmmmmm, are they smelling money for a far finer golden years?????????
Hypothetical- Guide tells me there's a 682 5/8 bull bedded down behind "that bush" - I shoot through "a bush" and kill a guy and his kid taking a nap. YEP- guide and the outfitter are now guiltly of manslaughter (not me, just them! Since apparetly I have no responsibility other than pulling the trigger....at "a bush"..!!!!!). YAAAAAA - QUICK - call the judge! I smell some money for me!!!!!!
After that read, I sincerely wish that neither the hunter or the poster draw a tag again for the rest of their time on this earth. We don't need either in the hunting community.

Absolutely AMAZING!

edpre
 
Life happens. Buddy of mine was hunting moose in BC with one of the best outfitters there is and shot a bull on the smaller end of the spectrum. The outfitter knew exactly what they were after and make the wrong call on a bull. It was kind of a split second thing for whatever reason and it was a done deal. No money back, no sorry, no anything. Stuff happens. If you want to know the exact size before it hits the ground go back east and shoot a whitetail that has been prescored.
 
I'm just blown away with how many people that think its all the hunters fault. I would bet that most of the people trash talking the hunter are guides. Any guide that thinks its all the hunters fault is not any good any way. Most people that draw a once in a life time hunt do care what it scores. Mistakes do happen as far as the guide but its still his fault. A very large percentage of people that book with an outfitter have no clue how to hunt that is why they go guided. Hell half of the people out hunting today have no clue how to hunt. I would guess that some people take it as a personal attack on them as they are guides. Any good guide doesn't have to respond as they know what they are capable of and if the screw up they are man enough to admit it if they do.
 
I was guided on my Archery elk hunt this year. My guide asked me what kind of bull I was looking for I told him a 350 bull would be nice. I was pissed when I killed my bull it was 360" lol. Now I have no where to put my elk. I had pre measured the area in the house for a 350" bull not 360. I guess I will have to add on to the house. You pull the trigger on the animal you want not the guide.

WW0801
 

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