High Fence or fair chase?

nmwapiti

nmwapiti

Active Member
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815
I know this topic raises blood pressure around here but I am curious how many of you out there would consider a high fence archery elk hunt on 14,000 acres? More specifically, The Horse Lake Mesa on the Jicarilla Reservation in Northern NM.I understand that to some, a high fence is a high fence no matter how big or small and I totally respect that. I have never been on a high fence ranch personally. When you consider that the HLM is a 20 square mile enclosure, would any of you agree that a challenge, a stalk and a feeling of accomplishment is there when you harvest? My understanding is the enclosure is a self sustained herd with natural reproduction. No penned up elk, no releasing of bulls prior to a hunt. I am on the fence on this one (pun intended). I would like to harvest a big bull at some point in my life and this option is right there price wise with private,free range ranch hunts that have bulls of the caliber I seek. I know that I would not ever hunt a high fence with 500 or even a couple thousand acres but I will be honest, 14,000 acres seems a little more fair. I know the choice is ultimately mine but I would like to hear what everyone has to say.
 
I would never ever hunt high fenced area...i would rather enjoy hunting little bucks and bulls in fair chase area. In MY opinion, high fence hunts are for the weak and lazy...but that is my opinion.

WIDOW_MAKER
 
My humble opinion...if you want to hunt it & it fit's your needs & price go for it. Never understood why anyone cares how/where someone else hunts. Some will obviously label you weak & lazy...honestly, do you give a rat's hiney about that persons opinion?
 
Sure, I would do that! As long as there is no way to herd the animals to a designated pinch point. I would rather just be given the opportunity to hunt the property on my own without a guide. I would do it.


Government doesn't fix anything and has spent trillions proving it!!!
Let's face it...After Monday and Tuesday, even the calender says WTF!
 
You should ask yourself, "if the big fenced ranch is really just as difficult as a no fence area, then why not just hunt a no fence area?"
 
That's bigger than the WMA that I will be hunting in a few weeks. The Urraca WMA in Northcentral New Mexico is 13,304 acres and they give out 40 bull elk tags each year over a 4 week period.

It's low fence, but I doubt I will see the fence line very often on my hunt.

I don't have a problem with high fence hunting, I've just never done it myself and probably never will. Probably the biggest issue for me would be that if I had the animal mounted, I would always feel the need to explain the animal was shot in a high fence.

Personally I feel the same way about animals shot on exclusive private ranches and indian reservations even though those are eligible for boone and crockett. It's not that you are the best hunter in the world that you have 10+ 400" bulls on your wall, it's the fact that you can pay $30,000 for a tag on the San Carlos Indian reservation every year.

Whatever you want to tell someone about the hard work that it took to get that bull on your wall.
 
For most of us, hunting is a recreational activity...something we do to get away from the daily grind. Gives us a chance to HAVE SOME FUN and ENJOY time in the outdoors.

Every single time this issue comes up it's boggles my mind that guys think they have the right (or even feel the need??) to tell someone else how they should spend their free time.

It's your hunt my friend...if it's something you'd like to do buy the hunt, kill a bull, and have a great time doing it.

"Weak and lazy" is a perfect description for someone who sits behind a keyboard belittling others for any reason...but that's just my opinion. :)
 
Normally I'm against high fence hunts but 20 square miles is a huge chunk of land and I would be no means consider this a pen like other high fence ranches that are only a couple square miles or so. From how you've described the place sounds good to me. I wouldn't worry too much about what others think. Can't please everyone if your OK with then go have fun and hunt. Heck I might even look into going there.
 
>For most of us, hunting is
>a recreational activity...something we do
>to get away from the
>daily grind. Gives us
>a chance to HAVE SOME
>FUN and ENJOY time in
>the outdoors.
>
>Every single time this issue comes
>up it's boggles my mind
>that guys think they have
>the right (or even feel
>the need??) to tell someone
>else how they should spend
>their free time.
>
>It's your hunt my friend...if it's
>something you'd like to do
>buy the hunt, kill a
>bull, and have a great
>time doing it.
>
>"Weak and lazy" is a perfect
>description for someone who sits
>behind a keyboard belittling others
>for any reason...but that's just
>my opinion. :)

X2

We have nothing to prove to anyone. Do what makes you happy. I think you would have a great hunt.
 
I have known many of hunters of who have shot animals within a fence. I have no problems with it. In fact when I'm an Old rich fart you might find me there with a bow in my hand. This may be the only way to hunt 50 years down the road with the way things are moving. May I consider that you choose the bull you are going to hunt beforehand and focus on that 1 animal. In 14000 acres you may just come empty handed if you do that. This will make it a fun challenge to you. I have known a guy who has hunted a bull at the same place you speak of and on his 3rd year of hunting he finally killed the bull. I would do and enjoy it!!! Life is too short to worry about what others say. Like others have said it is your decision and I'm sure there will be people who agree and disagree with your decision. But Really Who cares? I have seen and been on both public land and fenced hunts. I killed a Corsican Ram one year in Colorado and it was a blast because of the company I was with. I could care less what others think about that. In fact it was more challenging than a few Antelope and Deer hunts I have been on. So I guess my advice is who cares, and feel free to do or not.
Curtis Wilson
Monarch Mountain Taxidermy
Curtis Wilson
 
Whatever brings you the most enjoyment and satisfaction. In the end, it's a matter of personal preference and fulfillment.

Eldorado
 
Ive thought alot about high fence hunts, I personally dont see a difference in a high fence hunt like you explained compared to any limited entry unit or cwmu. The elk (as you stated) are wild free roaming animals, and they have been managed to be large animals. The only difference is the state owns the animals in a LE unit VS a private owner owns the animals inside the fence. I say go for it, enjoy the hunt and post some pictures when your through!
 
If you can live with yourself afterwards and still consider yourself a sportsmen go for it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-11 AT 09:40PM (MST)[p]I think hunting a high fence like you describe would be a fun hunt. Now think about some people who are not able to hunt the rugged areas elk live, a HIGH FENCE AREA LIKE THIS MAY BE THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN HUNT. I think alot of people dont think about this when they think about high fence ranches. I for one know some older people who can no longer hunt because their bodies cannot handle it anymore, but still dream of hunting big elk. I beleive a place like this with good guides could help make that dream a reality. So dont knock the high fence until you think about all the benifits that come with them, like a guarenteed bull population
 
IMO, I think you would get more satisfaction out of hunting a CWMU or purchasing a land owner tag and taking a bull on private property with out a fence than you would hunting a high fence unit. I would think the cost of a CWMU or Land Owner tag would be pretty comparable to a High Fence deal. I have never hunted high fence before but I think if I were to shoot an animal on a high fence ranch, no matter how big the unit was, I would always wince a little when I looked at him on my wall. You know for certain if you take a big bull, even it is with archery equipment, and its behind a fence most folks will not give the animal or the hunter due credit because it was in a high fence unit. Not that you necessarily care what others think but I for one like showing off my trophies to my buddies and would hate for them to think, "Ya, cool bull but you shot him behind a fence! Any one can kill a big bull off of a high fence ranch." Most would never say anything out loud but you know they are all thinking it! I just think it would lesson the experience a bit. Having said that, I also believe it just comes down to what kind of hunt you are after. I liked the post that someone wrote about hunting being more about getting out in the woods and enjoying the beauty of the outdoors than it is anything else. At the end of the day, do what you want to do and dont be swayed by others.
 
The satisfaction alone of pissing off the 'holier than thou I only eat free range chicken sandwiches' crowd here would be worth a high fence hunt. Matter of fact, even if you don't do it, pretend that you did just to get their knickers in a twist.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
Starkey Experimental is 40 square miles. If you have a problem with somebody hunting that, you just have problems in general.
 
Most guys don't cover a 20x20 mile area hunting, Fence or no fence that a pretty big piece to find your elk in.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Lol 1911

Im a big fan of doing what you want to do even if some dont like it. I wouldn't pay to do a high fence hunt, mostly because I would never have that kind of money and can hunt elk alot cheaper. but if someone said come on out and kill an elk, I would not turn them down and would have fun doing it. If you find enjoyment in it, go have fun.
I have considered doing a high fence sheep, pig, fallow deer type hunt for around 300 bucks, just to go kill something and for the practice of shooting. If I do can I post pics?
 
If this "hunt" is something you want to do then that's fine. There is nothing unethical about shooting penned up livestock. It is far more ethical than how cattle are raised and slaughtered.

However, in my opinion, penned up elk just don't count as a real hunt, even on 14,500 acres. For comparison, the Gila is 3,300,000 acres (roughly 250 times the area) with only 30 times as many elk (approx. 18k versus 600).

Also, if you look at the map of the hunt area there are very few places over two miles from a fence. An elk can sprint up to 45 mph and could reach the fence from the innermost place in the ranch in less than three minutes, but most likely are within a minute run from their boundary. Make no mistake about it, these animals are penned up livestock.

With that being said, enjoy the adventure if that's what floats your boat. I have shot released pheasant and chukar and it was a blast. If it was me, I'd rather try to draw or buy a landowner tag for an awesome unit with free range elk and take my chances, but that is only my opinion.
 
I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't call it hunting, but the only persons opinion that matters is yours. That's mine.
 
>I wouldn't do it and I
>wouldn't call it hunting, but
>the only persons opinion that
>matters is yours. That's mine.
>

X2!

WIDOW_MAKER
 
14,000 acres is a big area. If you want to hunt it have fun.

For some reason people have a issue with 14,000 acre elk ares or the Starkey forest in Oregon, but they would hunt Africa in a minute. It seems like most every place if Africa has some kind of fence around it.
 
The hunting game is changing so much, I would say go for it if you want to, its a part of hunting, so In the end its yourself that needs to be pleased. The adventure part of hunting is rapidly dissapearing in most places, fenced or not,just watch a few eastern whitetail hunting shows, technology and the modern world are seeing to that. Personally I wouldn't do it unless someone else paid for it, and then I would just sell the mount, as it probably wouldn't mean very much to me, and Im the one that needs to be pleased.
 
>"Weak and lazy" is a perfect
>description for someone who sits
>behind a keyboard belittling others
>for any reason...but that's just
>my opinion. :)

oooh...good one...backinthegame.
:7

WIDOW_MAKER
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again; I think we've lost the romance of the hunt and traded it away for inches. If you want the hunt,and need a big bull, then go for it. Why should you care what we think?

I personally would not do it yet I'm going to search for a buffalo hunt somewhere because I supposedly "need" one. Go figure.

Good luck either way,
Zeke
 
Just do whatever makes you happy. Don't ask yourself what funding these kinds of operations will mean for the future of hunting and our big game herds.
 
WB, great point. I have no issue telling folks I've hunted the Starkey Experimental forest w/ archery tackle. Had a great time and my buddy and I actually hiked in several miles and spike camped for 4 days. The unit is huge and would be a challenge to cover on foot during the entire hunt, difficult terrain and the elk are free range (i.e. not penned). We also saw a lot of cougar sign, coyotes, and bear sign too. There are some deep canyons and steep country in there, we had a great time and while we didn't kill any monsters I shot a respectably 5x5 and my buddy ate tag soup.

I think the question lies with the hunter. Personally I had no issue with this type of hunt because of the size, terrain, free range elk, etc. It was FAR from a canned hunt. And I don't feel bad when I look at the 5x5 euro mount on my wall, it's just the same as other elk I've killed with my bow.

And quite frankly, if others dont agree so be it...dont matter to me none. Once you start thinking you're better than anyone else on this earth you've lost my respect.

LBR
 
Someone put it best on here went they said that they supported canned hunt because it lets the rest of the real hunters put in for hunts with better odds. lol
 
>Most guys don't cover a 20x20
>mile area hunting, Fence or
>no fence that a pretty
>big piece to find your
>elk in.

Just to clarify, 20 square miles is not 20 miles X 20 miles. That would be 400 square miles.

14,500 acres is actually 22.6 square miles and if it was shaped close to a square would be 4.5 miles wide and 5 miles long.
 
Just buy a mount off ebay it's cheaper and just as rewarding as a canned hunt.
 
high fence is just exactly what the name refers to....its fenced.

slice that any way you want to but it is not on my list of things to do.
 
What 1911 said.....Too many self righteous hipocrits on here.

To even use the term "fair chase" in the modern hunting world, is simply stupid.
Factor in all of the equipment and tech changes over the last 100 years, and there pretty much ain't an animal on the planet that is "fair chased".

Showing up on public land, in your $50k King Ranch Ford and criticising someone for paying $10k for a private ranch hunt, is the height of audacity.

What difference can a fence around a 14,000 acre ranch make to an animal? If they have been inside it more than overnight, they won't run to it in the first place. By the time they start running from a hunter, the hunt is already busted, in most cases.

Those of you who use DIY, public land hunting, to make you feel tougher than the next guy, are retarded.

"If God did not intend for man to hunt animals, he would have made broccoli more fun to shoot"
 
>So if you dont support and
>agree with canned hunts your
>retarded?? I've heard it
>all now.

Deerlove. Actually, when you get to 5th grade, the third time, you will learn some reading comprehension skills and then you MIGHT be able to at least determine if you have "heard it all" or not.

A blind 10 year old Democrat, would not have attempted to spin what I said into your "intelligent" conclusion. You most certainly have a future career in Government service.

I am in a state of high doubt, that you could actually read, comprehend and pass a hunter safety course.


"If God did not intend for man to hunt animals, he would have made broccoli more fun to shoot"
 
Boy I'm glad I failed that hunters saftey course, now I can hunt errr shoot a bull on a canned hunt. Do I even need a licence? Oh wait it's 14k acres most be tough hunt. LOL
 
I think that 14,000 acres is big area to hunt....i would personally hunt the HLM if i had the chance...I mean, isnt all units in every state consider high fence hunting even though there is no visible fence but boundary on where to hunt. I would consider that hunting within a fence. and who would think that they can cover 20 squares mile in a hunting trip. nobody every said i covered 20 squares miles but usually say we hiked in 4 to 5 miles in to the back country. so what do you think? it just my opinion.!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-11 AT 09:51AM (MST)[p]You are saying hunting an LE hunt is no different than hunting a high fence???? Brother, I can assure you one thing that and that is hunting an LE unit is not even in the same ball park as hunting High Fence, regardless of acreage. Animals behind a fence are "penned up" and there is no way you can call it fair chase. Animals on a LE unit can run as far as they want to go with out running into a fence where hunters can coral them in and shoot them. Sorry man but that was one of the more ridiculous comments I've heard on this sight. You want to hunt penned up animals thats your own business but don't make ridiculous comparisons to make your self feel good about it.
 
i didnt compare it to make me feel good about it. i meant hunting units are the boundaries and you cant hunt beyond its boundaries. that what i meant. you wouldnt chase an wildlife thats nots in your boundaries. just my opinion.
 
Shanqwa16,

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I understand what you are saying about not being able to hunt outside of your unit. The biggest difference is while YOU the hunter are confined to a specific area the ANIMAL is not. I have been on several hunts where I am at the edge of my unit glassing at a big buck that is a few hundred yards over on the adjacent unit and there is nothing I can do about it other than just sit back and watch. Those critters can cover some ground and often do move from one unit to another, especially when pushed. Animals within a fence can only go until they hit the chain link.

Fever
 
Nickman,

Im still trying to figure you out man. So I show up to hunt in my 50K Ford pickup on a public land hunt and you want to throw me into a category of "holier than thou" hunters???? Thats kinda what your saying right???

Despite the technology available to todays hunters, there are still plenty of us out there hunting without our "long range" rifle and $2,500 spotting scope. It seems clear to me that you either own a high fence ranch or you hunt them regularly. Quit trying to make the rest of us who hunt fair chase on public land feel bad about it and PLEASE quit trying to justify your hunting penned up animals!
 
Just to clarify again, 20 square miles is not 20 miles wide by 20 miles long. That is 400 square miles.

20 square miles is 4 miles wide by 5 miles long.

14,500 acres is actually 22.5 square miles so that would be 4.5 miles wide by 5 miles long.

Depending on the terrain, an average guy on foot could end up against a fence at some point during a day's hunt pretty easily on an elk hunt. Maybe not on a whitetail hunt in South Texas, but most folks normally expect to cover some ground elk hunting IME.

Not speaking out for or against it, just want to clear up that misconception that seems to keep popping up.
 
I guess I will have to type slower......you guys have some REALLY serious reading comp problems.

"If God did not intend for man to hunt animals, he would have made broccoli more fun to shoot"
 
I guess since I started this mess, I'll chime in now. I appreciate everyones comments and as mentioned before, this topic sure gets tempers flaring. My intention of this thread was not to ask for anyones permission or approval to go hunting on the rez for giant bulls. It was intended to see who thought a hunt on 14,000 fenced acres with a bow would be considered "fair chase". After reading everyones comments and thinking about it quite a bit, I have come to the conclusion that "fair chase" is an antiquated word in the hunting realm. The following are examples and I am by no means bashing anybody.

If you hunt bears over bait or use dogs on public lands, is this "fair chase"?

Is road hunting on public lands "fair chase"?

Is hunting on public land with spotters, radios, etc "fair chase"?

Is hunting private, low fence land where public pressure funnels game considered "fair chase"?

Is using balistic charts, high tech scopes and rifles to shoot game at 700-800-900 yards considerd "fair chase"?

I could go on and on. I guess the bottom line is everyone draws a line in the sand as to whats fair and not fair. I have killed three elk in the last three years with my bow on public lands. This last season was a 12 day marathon. I am by no means lazy or flush with cash. All 3 bulls I am damn proud of. I haven't had the opportunity at a big bull yet and maybe one day I will have my chance if I am lucky enough to keep drawing tags in the right places. In the mean time, I wouldn't mind chasin monster bulls during the rut with bow in hand on the rez!
 
If you hunt bears over bait or use dogs on public lands, is this "fair chase"?

Is road hunting on public lands "fair chase"?

Is hunting on public land with spotters, radios, etc "fair chase"?

Is hunting private, low fence land where public pressure funnels game considered "fair chase"?

Is using balistic charts, high tech scopes and rifles to shoot game at 700-800-900 yards considerd "fair chase"?

I could go on and on. I guess the bottom line is everyone draws a line in the sand as to whats fair and not fair

+1
Good Point NMwapiti
Everyone has their own decision on whats fair chase or not.
 

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