I have been debating wither to post this or not, but I think my home state of Arizona is taking advantage of the non-residents, putting in for the deer hunts. Last year no non-residents without max bonus points got a deer tag in 13B, 13A or 12AW late. No tags were issued, unless you had maximum bonus points for these units. It is interesting that 91% of the people with max bonus points put in for these three units last year, 73% of those applicants were non-residents. The 20% pass picked up all of the 10% non-resident tags and no tags fell to the 80% pass for non-residents. This of course means that unless you were one of the 233 non-residents with max bonus points you had no chance for a tag in these units. This needs to change. What the non-residents need to do is start writing letters and describe your concerns. It needs to change to something like only 50% of the non-resident tags go in the 20% pass and the other 50% of the non-resident tags go in the 80% draw so someone would at least have a chance at a tag without maximum points. This will take time to change, so those of you interested should start the process.
Non-Res Odds in AZ-criminal !
- Thread starter LVTHNT
- Start date
H
huntin100
Guest
lvthnt, I agree. Just bought a license and put me and my 13 yr old son in for elk and speed goats. 200 DOLLARS to buy licenses and apply. More money later for deer and sheep. If non res don't even have a slim chance at the great hunts, many will quit. Then residents license fees may go up, to make up for revenue loss. Good luck in the draws
MuskegMan
Active Member
- Messages
- 727
I don't apply for myself because you have to buy the license w/o a refund if you don't draw.
I've been applying for my kid for deer, elk and desert bighorn since he obtained his Hunter Safety Card at 12 yrs old. He can buy a youth license for $25. I think he can apply as a youth until he is 19 (maybe 20,) so that's 7 (maybe 8) bonus points for each species at about $40/yr to apply.
He's up to 3 BP's this year. We'll see how it pans out.
MM
I've been applying for my kid for deer, elk and desert bighorn since he obtained his Hunter Safety Card at 12 yrs old. He can buy a youth license for $25. I think he can apply as a youth until he is 19 (maybe 20,) so that's 7 (maybe 8) bonus points for each species at about $40/yr to apply.
He's up to 3 BP's this year. We'll see how it pans out.
MM
M
moneyman
Guest
>I have been debating wither to
>post this or not, but
>I think my home state
>of Arizona is taking advantage
>of the non-residents, putting in
>for the deer hunts.
>Last year no non-residents without
>max bonus points got a
>deer tag in 13B, 13A
>or 12AW late. No tags
>were issued, unless you had
>maximum bonus points for these
>units. It is interesting
>that 91% of the people
>with max bonus points put
>in for these three units
>last year, 73% of those
>applicants were non-residents. The
>20% pass picked up all
>of the 10% non-resident tags
>and no tags fell to
>the 80% pass for non-residents.
> This of course means
>that unless you were one
>of the 233 non-residents with
>max bonus points you had
>no chance for a tag
>in these units. This
>needs to change. What
>the non-residents need to do
>is start writing letters and
>describe your concerns. It
>needs to change to something
>like only 50% of the
>non-resident tags go in the
>20% pass and the other
>50% of the non-resident tags
>go in the 80% draw
>so someone would at least
>have a chance at a
>tag without maximum points. This
>will take time to change,
>so those of you interested
>should start the process.
You just figured this out?
>post this or not, but
>I think my home state
>of Arizona is taking advantage
>of the non-residents, putting in
>for the deer hunts.
>Last year no non-residents without
>max bonus points got a
>deer tag in 13B, 13A
>or 12AW late. No tags
>were issued, unless you had
>maximum bonus points for these
>units. It is interesting
>that 91% of the people
>with max bonus points put
>in for these three units
>last year, 73% of those
>applicants were non-residents. The
>20% pass picked up all
>of the 10% non-resident tags
>and no tags fell to
>the 80% pass for non-residents.
> This of course means
>that unless you were one
>of the 233 non-residents with
>max bonus points you had
>no chance for a tag
>in these units. This
>needs to change. What
>the non-residents need to do
>is start writing letters and
>describe your concerns. It
>needs to change to something
>like only 50% of the
>non-resident tags go in the
>20% pass and the other
>50% of the non-resident tags
>go in the 80% draw
>so someone would at least
>have a chance at a
>tag without maximum points. This
>will take time to change,
>so those of you interested
>should start the process.
You just figured this out?
B
boneaddict
Guest
I dropped last year because of the no refund, but was thinking bout resuming this year to not lose any points. I thought a slim chance was worth it. I didn't really ealize there was NO chance.
B
boneaddict
Guest
P.S. I wonder if they spelled this out in the huntin' fool magazine that I didn't get. ???????
buckmster28
Moderator
- Messages
- 399
I agree with you, because I dont know if I will keep putting in ounce I draw a tag, I am sure this will start happening with alot of applicants. The problem is I have max points right now and like all other max points applicants would like all the chance I can get to get my tag.
HornedToad
Active Member
- Messages
- 409
Those of us NR with Max Points for deer would rather NOT see another "moving of the goal posts" in AZ.
Those without Max Points can keep applying until they reach the Max Point pool. That is how those of us currently with Max Points got there.
Keep the rules as they are.
Those without Max Points can keep applying until they reach the Max Point pool. That is how those of us currently with Max Points got there.
Keep the rules as they are.
Actually, this roadblock was just put in place last year. Many people have been investing in AZ licenses for years, only to get their hopes dashed last year by the 20% pass combined with the 20% cap. I am in the top deer pool, so it helps me personally here, but slams my chances for other species. My kids are screwed totally. They may live long enough to get into the top pools, but what a crock. A middle aged person certainly will not. Preference is more suited to hunts you can get in a reasonable time period (perhaps 10 years or less?), and really is unfair for hunts that exclude everyone not in the good ol' boys club for the better part of their hunting days. If 20% of the tags are to go to the top pool, hold that for nonresidents too. 20% of 10% is 2%. Let the nonresident top pool cap be 2% to be fair.
C
CFHUNTER
Guest
It's simply a matter of too many people applying for a limited amount of tags. No matter what system you employ, you are going to piss some people off. Let's face it, everone applying for years and coveting these tags is passionate about hunting there, at least some day. The fact that you have to buy the license just makes it worse because so many just apply for multiple species after they're already stuck buying the license to start with. Everyone gets that "well, I'm too invested in it now to quit" mentality and on and on we go. Best of luck to everyone in the draws and in the field.
Anaconda
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,443
Amazing, right here on this thread are four Arizona max deer point holders.
buckmster28
ElmerFudd
Horned Toad
Me
Gripe all you want about the Az drawing system, but at least one of us is gojng to be hunting big muleys north of the ditch this year !
P.S. don't change it until I draw ! I have worked and invested for this tag, I deserve it !
buckmster28
ElmerFudd
Horned Toad
Me
Gripe all you want about the Az drawing system, but at least one of us is gojng to be hunting big muleys north of the ditch this year !
P.S. don't change it until I draw ! I have worked and invested for this tag, I deserve it !
PleaseDear
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,433
It would be a simple and easy solution..
Seperate the res and non-res. draw...
Put the 10% into the non-res. draw and do the 20% max gig and the remaining 80% of the 10% allocation goes to the remaining non-res in that unit/species...
Putting in for Desert Ram , if your not max pool, is a waste of $$$ as a non-res because of the max 20% split...
Robb
Seperate the res and non-res. draw...
Put the 10% into the non-res. draw and do the 20% max gig and the remaining 80% of the 10% allocation goes to the remaining non-res in that unit/species...
Putting in for Desert Ram , if your not max pool, is a waste of $$$ as a non-res because of the max 20% split...
Robb
M
moneyman
Guest
The rule does not apply to sheep tags.
B
bigoltom
Guest
Leave it the way it is. When I apply to other states I expect to not get drawn, that is why it is called a lottery. If you don't want to wait untill you have max points go to someother unit in the state. Wait, never mind that, just keep putting in for the strip.
I say change it again. Change is good, they cant get right what they havent changed in years, so change it. Open the floodgates. If we give everyone a tag and kill everything then there wont be any reason to put in for AZ..........problem solved.
There are thousands of non-residents putting for a hunt in a unit that has less than a hundred tags.............how would Arizona be able to make it fair for you?
I'm not big on AZGFD, but too many people expecting to hunt these units. Maybe move to Arizona to increase your odds if you love hunting that much. (please no one else move here)
Is that ethical?
There are thousands of non-residents putting for a hunt in a unit that has less than a hundred tags.............how would Arizona be able to make it fair for you?
I'm not big on AZGFD, but too many people expecting to hunt these units. Maybe move to Arizona to increase your odds if you love hunting that much. (please no one else move here)
Is that ethical?
2
270longshot
Guest
It just shows that when you put in with 7,000 plus people for 50-75 tags you really should never expect to be drawn. I drew 13b strip 4 years ago. Never expect the unexpected. As for non res hunters I don't know what to say other than if the max point holders are non res than that is what it is. There are a lot of other areas in the state that hold big deer. I don't put in for any other states so I don't care because I can always archery deer hunt every year which I think is more fun anyway.
HornedToad
Active Member
- Messages
- 409
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-07 AT 08:46AM (MST)[p]After applying for 10 years for an "early rifle" AZ elk tag, I finally concluded that there were too many NR points-holders ahead of me, including the max point holders.
I applied for a "late rifle" tag in a unit with about a 5% chance of being drawn (still a 20 to 1 long-shot), and drew a tag!
I hunted hard, and killed a nice 330 class bull. Would I have liked to have hunted during the rut, and have a greater chance at a 380 class bull... sure. But I'm not getting any younger, and at some point, you have to cut-a-card, and make the best of the situation.
I have no regrets on burning my 10 points to kill a 330 bull. Some might feel differently. If I had been ten years younger, I probably would have hung around longer trying to draw a rut hunt.
Maybe this lesson applies to some with fewer than max points for AZ deer. There are other units than 13A, 13B and 12AW, and many of those other units hold good deer. You may have to hunt for a 180 buck, rather than a 200 buck, but at least you will be hunting a quality animal in AZ.
Depending upon your age, and number of years to continue applying, and the odds.... its your choice.
I applied for a "late rifle" tag in a unit with about a 5% chance of being drawn (still a 20 to 1 long-shot), and drew a tag!
I hunted hard, and killed a nice 330 class bull. Would I have liked to have hunted during the rut, and have a greater chance at a 380 class bull... sure. But I'm not getting any younger, and at some point, you have to cut-a-card, and make the best of the situation.
I have no regrets on burning my 10 points to kill a 330 bull. Some might feel differently. If I had been ten years younger, I probably would have hung around longer trying to draw a rut hunt.
Maybe this lesson applies to some with fewer than max points for AZ deer. There are other units than 13A, 13B and 12AW, and many of those other units hold good deer. You may have to hunt for a 180 buck, rather than a 200 buck, but at least you will be hunting a quality animal in AZ.
Depending upon your age, and number of years to continue applying, and the odds.... its your choice.
Moneyman ? You asked did I just figure this out? If you didn't realize 2006 was the first year this new system was put into place. Also, the rule does apply to Sheep. The 20% draw is done by species not individual units.
Those of you who are NR with max points, I could understand the reason you don't want to change the system. But look at the long term, after you get a tag in a drought year when can you expect to get a tag again, NEVER. If the rules were changed so there was a chance (small as it may be) to get a tag without being in the max group it would seem to me it would be a good thing for the process.
Not to bore you with details, but if every thing stays the same and people put in for the same units as last year. There will be 145 max holders chasing 7 tags in 13B this year. Just the simple math tells you that it will take over 20 years before the max holders get their tags. I know the law of averages will take some of those tags out of the 20% pool, but not many. Why not change the rules so some of the 10% NR cap goes to the 80% pool? If you agree, now is the time to get involved. I know it is a tough decision for the 230 people that currently have max deer points, but in the long run it gives everyone at least a chance at a tag.
Those of you who are NR with max points, I could understand the reason you don't want to change the system. But look at the long term, after you get a tag in a drought year when can you expect to get a tag again, NEVER. If the rules were changed so there was a chance (small as it may be) to get a tag without being in the max group it would seem to me it would be a good thing for the process.
Not to bore you with details, but if every thing stays the same and people put in for the same units as last year. There will be 145 max holders chasing 7 tags in 13B this year. Just the simple math tells you that it will take over 20 years before the max holders get their tags. I know the law of averages will take some of those tags out of the 20% pool, but not many. Why not change the rules so some of the 10% NR cap goes to the 80% pool? If you agree, now is the time to get involved. I know it is a tough decision for the 230 people that currently have max deer points, but in the long run it gives everyone at least a chance at a tag.
C
camuleycrazy
Guest
Add one more guy. I'm in the max point pool for deer. The change I'd like to see is a 20-25% tag allotment for nonresidents. We do have a choice we can move to Arizona for a year. If I don't get a tag before I retire that's what I'll do.
H
huntindude
Guest
I'm in the max point pool also, looks like we should start our own club here.
F
FAB
Guest
Mexico is starting to sound alot better!
BigFin
Active Member
- Messages
- 693
I am in the max deer point pool also, and I think it is a stupid rule. Yeah, I will eventually draw.
What chaps me is that my 16 year old son is 4 points behind the non-resident max points. I think about how much it will cost him in terms of years, not necessarily money, to get to the top of the heap. I am not asking for a program where he is guaranteed a tag, but at least give the younger folks a statistical chance of drawing. I can't imagine what the odds/waiting period will be for anyone who is just now getting in the game.
This has essentially converted the bonus point program to a preference program in the high demand hunts. Really not fair to younger hunters.
I think AZ is doing a great job with a limited resource. They are victims of their own success. By producing such great quality, they have created demand that will never be filled.
I am fine with a 10% NR cap, but it should be done without the max bonus point rule for NRs. I know this may sound stupid for a guy in the max deer pool, but I have sent a letter to F&G telling them I hope they change it.
Hey fellas, what is my "max deer pool" membership number?
I hope you all draw your tags, so long as I get mine!
"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
What chaps me is that my 16 year old son is 4 points behind the non-resident max points. I think about how much it will cost him in terms of years, not necessarily money, to get to the top of the heap. I am not asking for a program where he is guaranteed a tag, but at least give the younger folks a statistical chance of drawing. I can't imagine what the odds/waiting period will be for anyone who is just now getting in the game.
This has essentially converted the bonus point program to a preference program in the high demand hunts. Really not fair to younger hunters.
I think AZ is doing a great job with a limited resource. They are victims of their own success. By producing such great quality, they have created demand that will never be filled.
I am fine with a 10% NR cap, but it should be done without the max bonus point rule for NRs. I know this may sound stupid for a guy in the max deer pool, but I have sent a letter to F&G telling them I hope they change it.
Hey fellas, what is my "max deer pool" membership number?
I hope you all draw your tags, so long as I get mine!
"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
buckmster28
Moderator
- Messages
- 399
I agree, we have alot of time and money wrapped up in this tag, and we deserve it. I was applying long before the draw, now at least I will draw someday. They probably will change the system which of course will only screw us max point holders.
T
theridge
Guest
Yep, I'am another one of those nasty NR's that have max points. I also think that AZ should think about raising the 10% to 20% for a few years and maybe things will equal out between the residents and non resident. It's my understanding that there are about twice as many non residents than residents that have max points. That being said, if my math is correct, there will be no resident max point holders in probably 2 or 3 years at most.
Just think, the dept could have a cash cow when dinero seems to be barely floating above the bottom of the totem pole.
I know it wont happen.
Just think, the dept could have a cash cow when dinero seems to be barely floating above the bottom of the totem pole.
I know it wont happen.
W
WARBIRDUM
Guest
What should we name the new max point holder club?I just need to take my hunter safety to make it into the true max point NR club.
M
muleyman23
Guest
Im just qurious how you find out what the max bouns points are. I have 8 for deer am I any where close?
R
redrabbit
Guest
Max # BP for deer is 10 BP going into this year's draw.
RR
RR
B
bigoltom
Guest
>Yep, I'am another one of those nasty NR's that have max points. >I also think that AZ should think about raising the 10% to 20% >for a few years and maybe things will equal out between the >residents and non resident.
Here is a hint.....it is not supposed to even out. Resident are supposed to have an advantage. They live here.
Here is a hint.....it is not supposed to even out. Resident are supposed to have an advantage. They live here.
B
BCHunter
Guest
I think the Residents should have some advantages but not all of them. It's Federal Land not State land. I think on any LE unit in any State, the Residents should have a better chance to draw but I think they should charge everybody the same price for the Tag. If they did this it would help with the budget and would thin out the numbers.
"I think the Residents should have some advantages but not all of them. It's Federal Land not State land"
Christ here we go again. "its federal land, I pay for it too" Yes you do, and you can use YOUR federal land just as much as me. You just can't pull the trigger on something. Until you start supporting wildlife (besides just license fees) and contributing to restoring habitat, volunteering, attending meetings, etc, then you can cry about it being equal. You support your wildlife in your state more than the NR does, same here. So why should you get equal tags or prices? Because, its "federal land?" What a joke.
It's Bush's fault!!!
Christ here we go again. "its federal land, I pay for it too" Yes you do, and you can use YOUR federal land just as much as me. You just can't pull the trigger on something. Until you start supporting wildlife (besides just license fees) and contributing to restoring habitat, volunteering, attending meetings, etc, then you can cry about it being equal. You support your wildlife in your state more than the NR does, same here. So why should you get equal tags or prices? Because, its "federal land?" What a joke.
It's Bush's fault!!!
I sure hope all you folks that are putting in your kids for the strip and other once in a lifetime hunts to build up points are actually taking them somewhere to hunt every year.
Theres plenty of places to hunt in western states for non-residents. Places to hunt every year. They are just not famous for 200" bucks behind every tree and you can't hunt during the rut.
For all of the "its my federal land" crowd, I have a question....do you apply in just one western state or multiple states? If you believe in equal draw chances with residents due to federal land, do you think you should have equal chances with residents in Idaho and wyoming and montana and utah and colorado and arizona, and be able to apply in all of those states? Its the same federal land in all the states, isn't it?
Theres plenty of places to hunt in western states for non-residents. Places to hunt every year. They are just not famous for 200" bucks behind every tree and you can't hunt during the rut.
For all of the "its my federal land" crowd, I have a question....do you apply in just one western state or multiple states? If you believe in equal draw chances with residents due to federal land, do you think you should have equal chances with residents in Idaho and wyoming and montana and utah and colorado and arizona, and be able to apply in all of those states? Its the same federal land in all the states, isn't it?
B
BCHunter
Guest
>"I think the Residents should have
>some advantages but not all
>of them. It's Federal Land
>not State land"
>
>Christ here we go again. "its
>federal land, I pay for
>it too" Yes you do,
>and you can use YOUR
>federal land just as much
>as me. You just can't
>pull the trigger on something.
>Until you start supporting wildlife
>(besides just license fees) and
>contributing to restoring habitat, volunteering,
>attending meetings, etc, then you
>can cry about it being
>equal. You support your wildlife
>in your state more than
>the NR does, same here.
>So why should you get
>equal tags or prices? Because,
>its "federal land?" What a
>joke.
>
>
>
>It's Bush's fault!!!
Wow, sounds like I hit a nerve. I guess I can say here we go again. You get all of the advantages and the only thing I suggested was paying equal amounts. What's wrong with that? You would still get to hunt more often than NR. You're probably one of the first one's to say hunting is becoming a rich man's sport. Lightenup Frances
>some advantages but not all
>of them. It's Federal Land
>not State land"
>
>Christ here we go again. "its
>federal land, I pay for
>it too" Yes you do,
>and you can use YOUR
>federal land just as much
>as me. You just can't
>pull the trigger on something.
>Until you start supporting wildlife
>(besides just license fees) and
>contributing to restoring habitat, volunteering,
>attending meetings, etc, then you
>can cry about it being
>equal. You support your wildlife
>in your state more than
>the NR does, same here.
>So why should you get
>equal tags or prices? Because,
>its "federal land?" What a
>joke.
>
>
>
>It's Bush's fault!!!
Wow, sounds like I hit a nerve. I guess I can say here we go again. You get all of the advantages and the only thing I suggested was paying equal amounts. What's wrong with that? You would still get to hunt more often than NR. You're probably one of the first one's to say hunting is becoming a rich man's sport. Lightenup Frances
B
BCHunter
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-07 AT 11:04AM (MST)[p]>I sure hope all you folks
>that are putting in your
>kids for the strip and
>other once in a lifetime
>hunts to build up points
>are actually taking them somewhere
>to hunt every year.
>
>Theres plenty of places to hunt
>in western states for non-residents.
> Places to hunt every
>year. They are just
>not famous for 200" bucks
>behind every tree and you
>can't hunt during the rut.
>
>
>For all of the "its my
>federal land" crowd, I have
>a question....do you apply in
>just one western state or
>multiple states? If you
>believe in equal draw chances
>with residents due to federal
>land, do you think you
>should have equal chances with
>residents in Idaho and wyoming
>and montana and utah and
>colorado and arizona, and be
>able to apply in all
>of those states? Its
>the same federal land in
>all the states, isn't it?
>
Never said equal draw, just said equal pay in LE units. I agree Res. should have some advantages.
>that are putting in your
>kids for the strip and
>other once in a lifetime
>hunts to build up points
>are actually taking them somewhere
>to hunt every year.
>
>Theres plenty of places to hunt
>in western states for non-residents.
> Places to hunt every
>year. They are just
>not famous for 200" bucks
>behind every tree and you
>can't hunt during the rut.
>
>
>For all of the "its my
>federal land" crowd, I have
>a question....do you apply in
>just one western state or
>multiple states? If you
>believe in equal draw chances
>with residents due to federal
>land, do you think you
>should have equal chances with
>residents in Idaho and wyoming
>and montana and utah and
>colorado and arizona, and be
>able to apply in all
>of those states? Its
>the same federal land in
>all the states, isn't it?
>
Never said equal draw, just said equal pay in LE units. I agree Res. should have some advantages.
mossback50cal
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,243
U wanna know why they do that? Because not everyone can afford to put in for other states. All states have outrageous non-resident prices. Some of us can't afford those prices. The only chance we have to hunt is in our own state. Not all of us are rich. Sorry, it just struck a nerve that people cry about other states. I think they should cut non-resident tags. It's sad when someone doesn't get to hunt because non-residents get 20 percent of tags. Just my two cents.
It is one thing to charge the NR $5.00 for a chance (as in years past), but now we charge $158.75 for a zero % chance (unless you have max pts), seems a little over the top. I think AZ continues to do a great job on the draw and management of our limited resource except for this one area. It should be fixed where some of the tags fall to the 80% draw.
Just think about getting started in the draw this year. If you are either new to the sport, just turned 10 or just got a tag last year and are starting over. The odds are stacked up against you to ever hunt a premium hunt in Arizona again if you are a non-resident. I am certain the rules will change some time soon, as they always do and as other states have done from time to time. Stay in the game as it will get better. I think people should at least be told what their chances are for draw before they put in so they can make an educated decision.
Just think about getting started in the draw this year. If you are either new to the sport, just turned 10 or just got a tag last year and are starting over. The odds are stacked up against you to ever hunt a premium hunt in Arizona again if you are a non-resident. I am certain the rules will change some time soon, as they always do and as other states have done from time to time. Stay in the game as it will get better. I think people should at least be told what their chances are for draw before they put in so they can make an educated decision.
J
jdbuck1
Guest
Amen !!!!!!!! Lvthnt well stated !
sremim,
After thinking about it, I guess you are right. Lets expand this logic to all aspects of life. When you visit "my" state you non-residents should pay 10 times more for gas (after all, we residents pay to build the roads you are driving on and pay for the police that patrol them, and pay for the hospitals that take care of you if you get into an accident, ect, ect,). You should pay a non-resident premium at restaurants, and grocery stores. If you visit our state parks you should pay 10 times the entrance fee because we residents are the ones paying state taxes that support OUR state parks. You should have to buy a non-resident supplemental stamp to travel on state forest and other public land.
Within "my" state, if you hunt a unit outside your county of residence you should pay non-resident fees. After all, it is the local people that volunteer, and do habitat restoration, that turn in poachers ect, ect. 80% of all hunting tags should go to local county residents, 10% to non-county residents, and 10% to non-state non-residents with a fee structure of $2, $200, and $2,000, respectively.
Sure glad you got me thinking in the right direction!
After thinking about it, I guess you are right. Lets expand this logic to all aspects of life. When you visit "my" state you non-residents should pay 10 times more for gas (after all, we residents pay to build the roads you are driving on and pay for the police that patrol them, and pay for the hospitals that take care of you if you get into an accident, ect, ect,). You should pay a non-resident premium at restaurants, and grocery stores. If you visit our state parks you should pay 10 times the entrance fee because we residents are the ones paying state taxes that support OUR state parks. You should have to buy a non-resident supplemental stamp to travel on state forest and other public land.
Within "my" state, if you hunt a unit outside your county of residence you should pay non-resident fees. After all, it is the local people that volunteer, and do habitat restoration, that turn in poachers ect, ect. 80% of all hunting tags should go to local county residents, 10% to non-county residents, and 10% to non-state non-residents with a fee structure of $2, $200, and $2,000, respectively.
Sure glad you got me thinking in the right direction!
H
huntin100
Guest
Not to change the post. But I was talking to Wyoming fish and game yesterday. He said that there is a 25% fee increase for 2008 that is likly going to pass. He said license fees have not had an increase for a while. What about 300 dollars for bonus points per year. It was 15 dollars two years ago? $$$$$$$ Can hunt if you have MONEY. In Arizona can APPLY if have MONEY, and NO chance to draw for the best tags unless you have max points.
R
rackem406
Guest
LVTHNT,
You're killing me. It's funny that you bring all of this up now. You talk about it being unfair to those who are just getting into the game with no or little points. I know you were pointing this to NR and you are a resident, but does any of this humanitarianism have to do with the fact that you cashed in on your elk points and your son on deer points????
I know you have this information every year, why a big stink now???
And Warbird. Get that hunters ed point. I'm looking forward to you getting drawn down here and seeing what kind of monsters you take.
Rackem
**************************************
INTERVIEW WITH GOD
http://www.livingwaters.com/interview/index.shtml
You're killing me. It's funny that you bring all of this up now. You talk about it being unfair to those who are just getting into the game with no or little points. I know you were pointing this to NR and you are a resident, but does any of this humanitarianism have to do with the fact that you cashed in on your elk points and your son on deer points????
I know you have this information every year, why a big stink now???
And Warbird. Get that hunters ed point. I'm looking forward to you getting drawn down here and seeing what kind of monsters you take.
Rackem
**************************************
INTERVIEW WITH GOD
http://www.livingwaters.com/interview/index.shtml
"After thinking about it, I guess you are right. Lets expand this logic to all aspects of life. When you visit "my" state you non-residents should pay 10 times more for gas (after all, we residents pay to build the roads you are driving on and pay for the police that patrol them, and pay for the hospitals that take care of you if you get into an accident, ect, ect,). You should pay a non-resident premium at restaurants, and grocery stores. If you visit our state parks you should pay 10 times the entrance fee because we residents are the ones paying state taxes that support OUR state parks. You should have to buy a non-resident supplemental stamp to travel on state forest and other public land.
Within "my" state, if you hunt a unit outside your county of residence you should pay non-resident fees. After all, it is the local people that volunteer, and do habitat restoration, that turn in poachers ect, ect. 80% of all hunting tags should go to local county residents, 10% to non-county residents, and 10% to non-state non-residents with a fee structure of $2, $200, and $2,000, respectively."
Now thats some funny stuff there!!
It's Bush's fault!!!
Within "my" state, if you hunt a unit outside your county of residence you should pay non-resident fees. After all, it is the local people that volunteer, and do habitat restoration, that turn in poachers ect, ect. 80% of all hunting tags should go to local county residents, 10% to non-county residents, and 10% to non-state non-residents with a fee structure of $2, $200, and $2,000, respectively."
Now thats some funny stuff there!!
It's Bush's fault!!!
RACKEM ? Maybe you missed the point. The current system doesn't hurt me at all and the changes that I am proposing won't make any change on my draw odds, or for any other resident. It will not hurt residents, only help non-residents. Yes I do get this information every year which helps me, family and friends get tags each year. I think you should know the system you are dealing with to be able to get tags. I do get tags on a regular basis, isn't that the object here?
You ask why the big stink now? Just in case you didn't realize, the system just changed last year, the results from last years draw are now available and I think it should change, don't you?
Mark send me a PM so I know who I am talking to.
You ask why the big stink now? Just in case you didn't realize, the system just changed last year, the results from last years draw are now available and I think it should change, don't you?
Mark send me a PM so I know who I am talking to.
R
rackem406
Guest
I have to apoligize because I read your last post wrong and you were speaking specifically to non-res, which I thought you weren't.
But here's another concern. I can't disagree that it should change, but in making that change where will G&F draw the line. Will non-res get something to help out their odds or will $ signs blind G&F and will we end up giving non-res equal draw odds. We saw the overreaction to the lawsuit brought on by USO a few years ago and the windfall for non-res that followed. I don't knock the non-res who drew then because they were doing as they always were in trying to get a good AZ tag and due to the changes for that two year period they were able to pull more tags.
We all know that our input to G&F so many times falls on deaf ears and if a big push is made to overhual the system we really can't say what the result will be no matter how clearly we communicate it to the commission.
Rackem
**************************************
INTERVIEW WITH GOD
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But here's another concern. I can't disagree that it should change, but in making that change where will G&F draw the line. Will non-res get something to help out their odds or will $ signs blind G&F and will we end up giving non-res equal draw odds. We saw the overreaction to the lawsuit brought on by USO a few years ago and the windfall for non-res that followed. I don't knock the non-res who drew then because they were doing as they always were in trying to get a good AZ tag and due to the changes for that two year period they were able to pull more tags.
We all know that our input to G&F so many times falls on deaf ears and if a big push is made to overhual the system we really can't say what the result will be no matter how clearly we communicate it to the commission.
Rackem
**************************************
INTERVIEW WITH GOD
http://www.livingwaters.com/interview/index.shtml
R
rackem406
Guest
Flagstaff is too small of a town to not know who drew what 
Rackem
**************************************
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http://www.livingwaters.com/interview/index.shtml
Rackem
**************************************
INTERVIEW WITH GOD
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B
BCHunter
Guest
>"After thinking about it, I guess
>you are right. Lets expand
>this logic to all aspects
>of life. When you visit
>"my" state you non-residents should
>pay 10 times more for
>gas (after all, we residents
>pay to build the roads
>you are driving on and
>pay for the police that
>patrol them, and pay for
>the hospitals that take care
>of you if you get
>into an accident, ect, ect,).
>You should pay a non-resident
>premium at restaurants, and grocery
>stores. If you visit our
>state parks you should pay
>10 times the entrance fee
>because we residents are the
>ones paying state taxes that
>support OUR state parks. You
>should have to buy a
>non-resident supplemental stamp to travel
>on state forest and other
>public land.
>
>Within "my" state, if you hunt
>a unit outside your county
>of residence you should pay
>non-resident fees. After all, it
>is the local people that
>volunteer, and do habitat restoration,
>that turn in poachers ect,
>ect. 80% of all hunting
>tags should go to local
>county residents, 10% to non-county
>residents, and 10% to non-state
>non-residents with a fee structure
>of $2, $200, and $2,000,
>respectively."
>
>
>
>Now thats some funny stuff there!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>It's Bush's fault!!!
We know it is. That's why most people thought your above post was pretty stupid because that was your line of thinking. If it wasn't then you just have your hand out.
>you are right. Lets expand
>this logic to all aspects
>of life. When you visit
>"my" state you non-residents should
>pay 10 times more for
>gas (after all, we residents
>pay to build the roads
>you are driving on and
>pay for the police that
>patrol them, and pay for
>the hospitals that take care
>of you if you get
>into an accident, ect, ect,).
>You should pay a non-resident
>premium at restaurants, and grocery
>stores. If you visit our
>state parks you should pay
>10 times the entrance fee
>because we residents are the
>ones paying state taxes that
>support OUR state parks. You
>should have to buy a
>non-resident supplemental stamp to travel
>on state forest and other
>public land.
>
>Within "my" state, if you hunt
>a unit outside your county
>of residence you should pay
>non-resident fees. After all, it
>is the local people that
>volunteer, and do habitat restoration,
>that turn in poachers ect,
>ect. 80% of all hunting
>tags should go to local
>county residents, 10% to non-county
>residents, and 10% to non-state
>non-residents with a fee structure
>of $2, $200, and $2,000,
>respectively."
>
>
>
>Now thats some funny stuff there!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>It's Bush's fault!!!
We know it is. That's why most people thought your above post was pretty stupid because that was your line of thinking. If it wasn't then you just have your hand out.
LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-07 AT 02:29PM (MST)[p]>"After thinking about it, I guess
>you are right. Lets expand
>this logic to all aspects
>of life. When you visit
>"my" state you non-residents should
>pay 10 times more for
>gas (after all, we residents
>pay to build the roads
>you are driving on"
Its too bad the federal government DOES give you money for roads. Do they give money to G&F? Nope, not much if any.
>You should pay a non-resident
>premium at restaurants, and grocery
>stores.
Why? Your tax dollars do not support these establishments.
If you visit our
>state parks you should pay
>10 times the entrance fee
>because we residents are the
>ones paying state taxes that
>support OUR state parks.
Yes, you do, however, last time I checked, in any state, State Parks are focussed on tourism, hunting is not.
You
>should have to buy a
>non-resident supplemental stamp to travel
>on state forest and other
>public land.
Fine by me.
>
>Within "my" state, if you hunt
>a unit outside your county
>of residence you should pay
>non-resident fees. After all, it
>is the local people that
>volunteer, and do habitat restoration,
>that turn in poachers ect,
>ect. 80% of all hunting
>tags should go to local
>county residents, 10% to non-county
>residents, and 10% to non-state
>non-residents with a fee structure
>of $2, $200, and $2,000,
>respectively."
I'm sure most people don't hunt in the county they live in, so that would only hurt your fellow neighbors. After all, you really think the money generated to support G&F is used in the county it came from?
"We know it is. That's why most people thought your above post was pretty stupid because that was your line of thinking."
Most people huh? Where are these most people at? So far two of you have responded negatively to my post. Does 2 of you count as "most people?" If thats the case, I know 2 people who feel exactly like I do about it, so I guess your "most people" and my "most people" cancel each other out.
It's Bush's fault!!!
>you are right. Lets expand
>this logic to all aspects
>of life. When you visit
>"my" state you non-residents should
>pay 10 times more for
>gas (after all, we residents
>pay to build the roads
>you are driving on"
Its too bad the federal government DOES give you money for roads. Do they give money to G&F? Nope, not much if any.
>You should pay a non-resident
>premium at restaurants, and grocery
>stores.
Why? Your tax dollars do not support these establishments.
If you visit our
>state parks you should pay
>10 times the entrance fee
>because we residents are the
>ones paying state taxes that
>support OUR state parks.
Yes, you do, however, last time I checked, in any state, State Parks are focussed on tourism, hunting is not.
You
>should have to buy a
>non-resident supplemental stamp to travel
>on state forest and other
>public land.
Fine by me.
>
>Within "my" state, if you hunt
>a unit outside your county
>of residence you should pay
>non-resident fees. After all, it
>is the local people that
>volunteer, and do habitat restoration,
>that turn in poachers ect,
>ect. 80% of all hunting
>tags should go to local
>county residents, 10% to non-county
>residents, and 10% to non-state
>non-residents with a fee structure
>of $2, $200, and $2,000,
>respectively."
I'm sure most people don't hunt in the county they live in, so that would only hurt your fellow neighbors. After all, you really think the money generated to support G&F is used in the county it came from?
"We know it is. That's why most people thought your above post was pretty stupid because that was your line of thinking."
Most people huh? Where are these most people at? So far two of you have responded negatively to my post. Does 2 of you count as "most people?" If thats the case, I know 2 people who feel exactly like I do about it, so I guess your "most people" and my "most people" cancel each other out.
It's Bush's fault!!!
sremim,
Do you really want to go there? I thought my earlier post was so ridiculous that it would prove my point to you. I guess it wasn't.
I could not find the budget data for Arizona, but I'm going to assume it is similar to Idaho, Utah, and Colorado. Here are some numbers (from Idaho) on how the State F&G departments are funded.
42% FEDERAL
26% Non-resident license sales
That's 66% so far paid by federal and Non-residents, 66%!!!!
19% resident license sales
10% other
3% restricted
That's 32% from inside the State.
Now, how can you say residents pay for the Wildlife and non-residents don't?
Non-residents are HIGHLY subsidizing your in-State hunting opportunities, as they do in all western states!
Do you really want to go there? I thought my earlier post was so ridiculous that it would prove my point to you. I guess it wasn't.
I could not find the budget data for Arizona, but I'm going to assume it is similar to Idaho, Utah, and Colorado. Here are some numbers (from Idaho) on how the State F&G departments are funded.
42% FEDERAL
26% Non-resident license sales
That's 66% so far paid by federal and Non-residents, 66%!!!!
19% resident license sales
10% other
3% restricted
That's 32% from inside the State.
Now, how can you say residents pay for the Wildlife and non-residents don't?
Non-residents are HIGHLY subsidizing your in-State hunting opportunities, as they do in all western states!
R
rackem406
Guest
They don't break out nonres and res license sales but for 2005 35% of funds came from the federal govt.
http://www.azgfd.gov/inside_azgfd/documents/2004_2005AGFDAnnualReport.pdf
Rackem
**************************************
INTERVIEW WITH GOD
http://www.livingwaters.com/interview/index.shtml
http://www.azgfd.gov/inside_azgfd/documents/2004_2005AGFDAnnualReport.pdf
Rackem
**************************************
INTERVIEW WITH GOD
http://www.livingwaters.com/interview/index.shtml
As a non-resident I think "criminal" is too strong of a description. But both the costs and odds are getting more & more out of hand. For example, I applied for elk and antelope for myself and my son. I spent $210.50 for the application process just to be included in the pool. We're ultimately responsible for an additional $2,130 if we're drawn (not likely since I have 10 points and only put in for archery hunts).
As non-residents, we no longer question the amounts of the applications or tags- if we did, we wouldn't be applying.
Think back 15 years ago, would you have imagined that you would ever spend around $2,400 just for tags to hunt elk or deer with your son in Arizona? As non-residents we're crazy, but we're drinking the cool-aid and buying into the program for now. How long can this go on though?
I am as fanatic about hunting as anyone, but when I could by my 7 year-old a brand new honda motorcycle instead of going hunting out of state, it becomes apparent why we are not recruiting hunters like we did only a few years ago.
What will an elk or antelope tag cost in 15 years? And forget about the strip, it'll be easier to draw a desert bighorn tag by then.
I'm not complaining...I've bought into the program for now because I am hopeful to hunt Arizona with my son one day. After that I'll reevaluate the lunacy of this situation.
slobow
As non-residents, we no longer question the amounts of the applications or tags- if we did, we wouldn't be applying.
Think back 15 years ago, would you have imagined that you would ever spend around $2,400 just for tags to hunt elk or deer with your son in Arizona? As non-residents we're crazy, but we're drinking the cool-aid and buying into the program for now. How long can this go on though?
I am as fanatic about hunting as anyone, but when I could by my 7 year-old a brand new honda motorcycle instead of going hunting out of state, it becomes apparent why we are not recruiting hunters like we did only a few years ago.
What will an elk or antelope tag cost in 15 years? And forget about the strip, it'll be easier to draw a desert bighorn tag by then.
I'm not complaining...I've bought into the program for now because I am hopeful to hunt Arizona with my son one day. After that I'll reevaluate the lunacy of this situation.
slobow
I find it quite interesting that many of you think that a $5.00 - $20.00 per year fee in unsuccessful draw years will keep the Game and Fish department running on an ongoing basis. Have you given any thought to just how much more a nonresident tag would cost if you just paid the entire expense in one shot? How many of you would be able to convince the little woman that $5000.00 JUST for an elk tag was reasonable? You guys sit here and complain constantly about game ranch hunting and yet that is exactly what you are supporting with that type of thinking. A one fee structure is counter productive to everyone in the long run.
Fact: there are hundreds of draw opportunities every year down here for hunts that aren't the best we have to offer and quite a few nonresidents draw them. If all you want to do is hunt the creme de la creme there aren't enough total tags in a 50 year period to meet the demand in one year on some hunts! That isn't ever going to change in your lifetime or your childrens! It's a lottery and look at it like a sheep hunt with just with a little better odds! There are no guaranteed tags and there never will be so bear that in mind when you apply. The money you pay funds the department to manage the resource so there is an opportunity to hunt in the future for all of us. Without game management there will be no opportunity at all. If you don't like this save yourself the grief and just write a check to a game ranch and start saving for your next hunt. You'll be happier and get to hunt far more often.
Fact: there are hundreds of draw opportunities every year down here for hunts that aren't the best we have to offer and quite a few nonresidents draw them. If all you want to do is hunt the creme de la creme there aren't enough total tags in a 50 year period to meet the demand in one year on some hunts! That isn't ever going to change in your lifetime or your childrens! It's a lottery and look at it like a sheep hunt with just with a little better odds! There are no guaranteed tags and there never will be so bear that in mind when you apply. The money you pay funds the department to manage the resource so there is an opportunity to hunt in the future for all of us. Without game management there will be no opportunity at all. If you don't like this save yourself the grief and just write a check to a game ranch and start saving for your next hunt. You'll be happier and get to hunt far more often.
R
rackem406
Guest
True Boskee. There are a lot of other opportunities in AZ that aren't the top units, but still can produce some good deer. I have a friend that is a resident that hunts bucks every year and is successful every year and the odds for a non-res in those units are really good too. There is another guy who only hunts muleys in one unit. It is hard to hunt and the deer densities aren't great but out of the six bucks I know he has taken out of there the smallest had a 28" spread.
But who am to say don't put in for the trophy units. I am doing the same thing in Utah and my odds are horrible, but hopefully I'll draw someday. But I've also hunted so called mediocre units in other states and have done very well. Its hard when you are out of state, but if you want to do a hunt with your son that you can remember it might be better to try to draw another unit and learn it really well with the help of others and make a memorable hunt.
Kevin, I sent you a pm, but you must of not read it since you emailed Chad asking.
Rackem
**************************************
INTERVIEW WITH GOD
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But who am to say don't put in for the trophy units. I am doing the same thing in Utah and my odds are horrible, but hopefully I'll draw someday. But I've also hunted so called mediocre units in other states and have done very well. Its hard when you are out of state, but if you want to do a hunt with your son that you can remember it might be better to try to draw another unit and learn it really well with the help of others and make a memorable hunt.
Kevin, I sent you a pm, but you must of not read it since you emailed Chad asking.
Rackem
**************************************
INTERVIEW WITH GOD
http://www.livingwaters.com/interview/index.shtml
I was mis-informed about the money given to the G&F from the government. However, there are many factors that go into whay a NR should pay more to hunt another state. Plus, how many time have you read that once people draw, they are out forever because they don't want to wait for another tag? So you think it is fair to allow you to pay what a resident does so you can hunt once and never come back? This has been argued and argued and argued on this site numerous times.
It's Bush's fault!!!
It's Bush's fault!!!
llamapacker
Moderator
- Messages
- 1,068
LVTHNT,
You continue to make excellent points. Some don't listen, but that will never change.
As long as there is NO CHANCE (0%)of drawing a strip tag for a nonresident without max points, it is DISHONEST for the state not to say so. I may like the system, or may not like the system, but it is incredible that state governments can continually be DISHONEST and get away with it.
It is one thing to collect a ~$200 "application" fee is there is even a 1% chance of drawing. Expensive, sure, but you know that going in. It is entirely a different discussion to collect that fee when your "application" never really is in the pot, as you have NO CHANCE to draw. I call this dishonest. Just tell everyone the way it is, and see what happens to the applicant pool. AZ is making money based on disception, and ignorance of the applicants.
Bill
You continue to make excellent points. Some don't listen, but that will never change.
As long as there is NO CHANCE (0%)of drawing a strip tag for a nonresident without max points, it is DISHONEST for the state not to say so. I may like the system, or may not like the system, but it is incredible that state governments can continually be DISHONEST and get away with it.
It is one thing to collect a ~$200 "application" fee is there is even a 1% chance of drawing. Expensive, sure, but you know that going in. It is entirely a different discussion to collect that fee when your "application" never really is in the pot, as you have NO CHANCE to draw. I call this dishonest. Just tell everyone the way it is, and see what happens to the applicant pool. AZ is making money based on disception, and ignorance of the applicants.
Bill
W
WARBIRDUM
Guest
Rackem,
I will try and get a ed. point for next year just waiting my turn but when I do draw we would have a heck of a time.
Good luck this year and make sure you call me in April if you get a Utah elk tag,
Take Care
I will try and get a ed. point for next year just waiting my turn but when I do draw we would have a heck of a time.
Good luck this year and make sure you call me in April if you get a Utah elk tag,
Take Care
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-07 AT 05:02PM (MST)[p]I understand the perspective on the max points issue but the rule just got changed last year and will not be up for review for another couple of years. Until then, we are where we are for the most part. Your concerns have been heard by the department and they will look into changing something in the future. But for the record there were most likely individuals (NR) drawn for some hunts north of the ditch w/o max points. It more than likely didn't happen on the early rifle rut tags because of the limited numbers of tags on those hunts. It is what it is and it's a lottery and you have a chance to draw a tag and even if they change this rule that's still the best it's going to be! These hunts are so over subscribed currently that you need to make an informed decision going in that your odds are slim at best to get drawn and accept that, because that factor alone isn't going to change even if they change the rule. These have never been guaranteed tags and the scarce nature of them will never change at any point in the future, in many instances they are as rare as sheep tags. Sorry but that's the reality of the situation but if you do draw a tag you'll get to have the opportunity to hunt some of the best Deer and Elk in the country in some of the best surroundings known to man, and no matter how you look at that it hardly seems criminal in any regard.
P
powerwagon1
Guest
perfectly said boss. I'm sick of every body crying about not having a chance at the strip whithout having max points. Do you think it would be fair if a no resident got a 13b tag with 7 points and once again several residents not getting that tag with 15 or more points. If your putting in for a strip tag, just keep in mind that it will take you 15 to 20 years to get these tags. There is plenty of other tags in arizona that have 20 to 30 percent draw odds that have big bucks. Just know what your putting in for.
7
782warbird
Guest
The only thing you are looking at is units north of the river
Arizona has plenty of area's that are good deer country
There are plenty of states that don't allow non resident hunters to hunt
there are plenty of country south of the river to hunt
Hell what about going and purchasing a archery Tag for the Kaibab your hunting lisence has that privilage.
I have been a resident for 25 years and have never had the opportunity to hunt the strip or even a early bull tag
Stop Bitching and apply if you wish
good luck
Arizona has plenty of area's that are good deer country
There are plenty of states that don't allow non resident hunters to hunt
there are plenty of country south of the river to hunt
Hell what about going and purchasing a archery Tag for the Kaibab your hunting lisence has that privilage.
I have been a resident for 25 years and have never had the opportunity to hunt the strip or even a early bull tag
Stop Bitching and apply if you wish
good luck
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-07 AT 04:33PM (MST)[p] What really pisses me off this year was i saw that it was no longer an option to apply in AZ without getting the 150$ license. There have been years in the past when i just didn't want to spend the money and applied with the points i had without gaining a point. This year it said it was Mandatory that you buy the license.
Here is a question for all of you, and i would like to see all NONRESIDENTS answer. When you draw your deer, or elk tag, will you continue to apply in AZ?? I strated a poll in the general section labeled AZ NONRESIDENT POLL, take a moment and tell us what you will do there.
Here is a question for all of you, and i would like to see all NONRESIDENTS answer. When you draw your deer, or elk tag, will you continue to apply in AZ?? I strated a poll in the general section labeled AZ NONRESIDENT POLL, take a moment and tell us what you will do there.
J
james_wvu
Guest
AZ 402, long time no argue. Glad to hear you are still out there on the front for the nonresidents that are getting reamed by AZ (sarcasm). It really surprises me when I read your posts laughing at nonresidents that complain about getting ripped off by AZ, especially considering your livelihood rests on guiding nonresidents that draw those coveted AZ tags. I don't deny that you have your right to your opinion, I don't question that. I only question why you are so critical when you are making cash off us.
When AZ becomes the most expensive state by a large sum of money, then there might possilby be a problem when NR quit applying. Until then, there will always be enough NR who will pay, regardless of how many on a website say they wont. The number on here who say they are done with AZ wont even equal 1% of all NR who apply.
It's Bush's fault!!!
It's Bush's fault!!!
H
huntin100
Guest
sremim, you are wrong IMO. You will see a big drop off if things don't change. I think this web site is a good representation of Non resident hunters. What makes you think other wise? The word is getting out about Arizona. Getting expensive to apply, no chance at the top tags as things are currently. I agree some good hunting still. A lot of people are after a great tag. You can draw good tags in other states and have a fair chance.
"I think this web site is a good representation of Non resident hunters. What makes you think other wise? "
Perhaps the fact that it takes so long for a NR to draw a tag. Look at how many NR have built up so many points even when there was a chance at all tags. There will never be a shortage of NR hunters applying in AZ.
It's Bush's fault!!!
Perhaps the fact that it takes so long for a NR to draw a tag. Look at how many NR have built up so many points even when there was a chance at all tags. There will never be a shortage of NR hunters applying in AZ.
It's Bush's fault!!!
Hunt100, sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. As long as Elk tags are in short supply there will always be people paying to hunt them. By the way are you aware there is a 3+ year wait to hunt Elk in the White Mountains with the Apaches and the tags cost $20,000. Game farms charge upwards of $7000.00 and they are booked solid so a tag on public land that holds an opportunity at a record book head is still a bargain at $2500-$3500.00 no matter how you slice the pie! The odds on sheep are worse and the lines are longer for them. The reality is as long as people can afford it they will hunt and as you can see by this illustration funding another $7.50 per species matters little to most of the sheep or elk applicants.
H
huntin100
Guest
You guys have some good points. The Desert Ranch cost 12k for an elk tag. I think there is a 2 yr waiting period. Ave bull is around 340. I just think there are a lot of people who make 60-100k a year who put in for non resident hunts in several states that will give up on Arizona and put their money into other states if they keep the current preference point system for the best hunts. I will go to New Mexico, Montana, Nevada and Wyoming for elk. Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, and Wyoming for deer and antelope. Better use of money IMO. Than 200 plus dollars a year and slim to no chance of drawing a tag that is better than the quality of the above mentionsed states. I have a hard time believing Arizona will continue with the same system. Time will tell. Good luck in the draws.
