LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-07 AT 11:17AM (MST)[p]Corner jumping in Wyo seems like a mighty controversial subject. I was wondering if the Wyo WG&F or sheriffs are ticketing this for trespass? I believe in recent years the WG&F quit ticketing corner jumpers; however, the sheriff still has the right to hand out trespass tickets? From what I understand a hunter in Albany County took this to court and ended up getting out of it? The hunter used a GPS system to help him locate corners. I was wondering if anyone knows whether Wyo game wardens or sheriff currently are given the go ahead to ticket corner jumpers or if corner jumping is permitted?
Wyo Corner Jumping?
- Thread starter jims
- Start date
I think a lot of law enforcement (sherrif/WGF) are really avoiding the issue even though, as it stands, the law makes it technically illegal to corner jump. I'm not sure what type of GPS the man who won the case had, but typically to get within 10 ft of a spot is pretty good with most handheld units. While, in theory, the corner junction of two blocks of land are infinitely smaller as they join to the tip and a person, if they indeed found the point close enough, would be trespassing while stepping over. I talked to a G$F warden up there not too long ago that said there is considerable ambiguity in the law and that needs to be addressed and clarified. I would not attempt to cornerjump, as I believe the points are generally too difficult to precisely locate without ultimately tresspassing. It would be great if the law was revised to somehow grant easement in these cases if there is significant public land to be had by passing over the corners.
I believe some of the best new hand-held gps units advertise that they are accurate to within a foot or so. It would seem strange to me that you could fly a chute plane from one public section and land in another that is totally surrounded by private land and this would be legal while stepping over 4 adjoining corners without touching any private land would not be legal?
It certainly would be nice to have something written in stone that was enforced or allowed so nothing was so wishy-washy!
It certainly would be nice to have something written in stone that was enforced or allowed so nothing was so wishy-washy!
W
Widetrack
Guest
We have many border jumpers down here in Texas. 
Even at one foot of accuracy, the precise corner is still up for grabs and identifiable only by exact survey I would guess or location by other professional means. I agree, if it is legal to fly a plane over the corner, then it should be legal to step over if you can find the corner. It seems to me that this ambiguity can lend itself to argument either way, as law enforcement will have as tough a time assertaining the exact point as the guy who tries it. Definitely a law in need of revising.
ICMDEER
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,994
There are a few places where there are brass caps or fences on the corner, where you can just step over the corner. It is my understanding that G&F wants to avoid this sticky issue, but County Sheriffs can be called to prosecute if the landowner asks.
It is an issue that needs clarification, but no one wants to address it in the legislature from what I know.
It is an issue that needs clarification, but no one wants to address it in the legislature from what I know.
"if they indeed found the point close enough, would be trespassing while stepping over."
Here's my question. When corner jumping, you are putting your foot in just as much public land as private, so how/why does it constitute trespassing? If you are on the corner and step from public corner to public corner, your foot is only in the air. Does the landowner own more of the air over the four corners, two of which he owns and two of which are owned publicly? It doesn't make sense to me how it can be trespassing.
It's Bush's fault!!!
Here's my question. When corner jumping, you are putting your foot in just as much public land as private, so how/why does it constitute trespassing? If you are on the corner and step from public corner to public corner, your foot is only in the air. Does the landowner own more of the air over the four corners, two of which he owns and two of which are owned publicly? It doesn't make sense to me how it can be trespassing.
It's Bush's fault!!!
D
DallanC
Guest
...
>agree, if it is legal
>to fly a plane over
>the corner, then it should
>be legal to step over
>if you can find the
>corner.
No, you own the air over your property to a certain height (I dont know what it is, or if it varies by state, but there is a height associated with property ownership. Obviously airplanes, spaceships, satallites are well above this... walking? Nope.
-DallanC
>agree, if it is legal
>to fly a plane over
>the corner, then it should
>be legal to step over
>if you can find the
>corner.
No, you own the air over your property to a certain height (I dont know what it is, or if it varies by state, but there is a height associated with property ownership. Obviously airplanes, spaceships, satallites are well above this... walking? Nope.
-DallanC
Not sure if I agree with the "air-space" deal. In Wyo you can float rivers that run through private land as long as you start and stop on public land. You can't legally step foot out of your boat in the water or you are trespassing.
If you are stepping from public land to public land across a corner I would think it would be the same deal as floating down a river or flying over in a plane!
If you are stepping from public land to public land across a corner I would think it would be the same deal as floating down a river or flying over in a plane!
D
DallanC
Guest
>Not sure if I agree with
>the "air-space" deal. In
>Wyo you can float rivers
>that run through private land
>as long as you start
>and stop on public land.
> You can't legally step
>foot out of your boat
>in the water or you
>are trespassing.
>
>If you are stepping from public
>land to public land across
>a corner I would think
>it would be the same
>deal as floating down a
>river or flying over in
>a plane!
No, there are specific exceptions to "navigatable waterways".
-DallanC
>the "air-space" deal. In
>Wyo you can float rivers
>that run through private land
>as long as you start
>and stop on public land.
> You can't legally step
>foot out of your boat
>in the water or you
>are trespassing.
>
>If you are stepping from public
>land to public land across
>a corner I would think
>it would be the same
>deal as floating down a
>river or flying over in
>a plane!
No, there are specific exceptions to "navigatable waterways".
-DallanC
R
rumproast
Guest
Corner jumping can get one a citation from a sheriff.
High-water marks are the boundary between private land and public watercourse.
High-water marks are the boundary between private land and public watercourse.
tailchaser
Active Member
- Messages
- 185
By no means am I a wyoming resident, but here in Oregon we face very similar problems with property corners intersecting tracts of public land. There are some things to think about. One, if the public land intersects on two corners, it would be perfectly legal for someone to access the portion without trespassing. GPS is making it easier to navigate around this issue, but remember landowners purposely over extend fences and boundaries to limit access to these areas because it gives them that much more untouched land behind thiers. GPS capabilities range from 3-10 feet normally, and survey tracts on large parcels can also vary to that amount unless a survey point has been established. To find out if one has you can get in touch with local officials. Don't forget, it's also a crime to mis-identify public land or keep someone from accessing it legally. It is also up to the landowner to PROVE you trespassed on his property in this situation and isn't given a free opportunity to ticket you. An officer must have proof a violation has occurred before a ticket can be issued. This is also common law. Some things to think about.
tc
tc
The G & F at last report wasn't ticketing corner jumpers after the Wyoming attorney general determined current legislation is vague and ambiguous. If I remember correctly, the ag comunity got pizzed and introduced a bill prohibiting corner jumping. It was defeated and for now corner jumping isn't illegal. For those of you commenting about the accuracy of GPS, your legal argument should be with respect to the landowner, not the hunter. In Wyoming, the landowner and state have to prove you were trespassing. If JimS sez he crossed my corner at a certain spot and I disagree, I'm the one who will have to prove he was in the wrong if it ends up in court...
deerfanatic
Active Member
- Messages
- 122
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-07 AT 09:29PM (MST)[p]When the federal government originally set up the public lands survey grid, "navigitable rivers" were set aside as property of the individual state to allow free flow of commerce, since commerce by boat was very common in those days. The definition of "navigitable rivers" in its original intent would likely rule out all but maybe a small portion of the North Platte River in Wyoming. Many states have said that if you float a river and don't touch the bottom you can pass through it without trespassing even though you could make an arguement that the stream technically does not meet the "navigitable river" definition. The states well argue that if you can float it then it is "navigitable" so they don't loose rights to the stream.
Good info TripleBB, What a guy has to ask himself is if he really wants to go through the hassle of being accused of tresspassing. Its only a matter of time before another precedent is set in the courts, and I'd be willing to bet that Wyoming landowners have a lot of weight to throw around.
LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-07 AT 09:52PM (MST)[p]I'm trying to figure out a way that landowners or a sheriff could prove that you trespassed across their property? If they never saw you on private land they would likely have to follow tracks to where you crossed private land or figure out some other scheme? If you crossed the corner in the dark they definitely couldn't see you border hop so that would rule out that they saw you on their property. I'm curous how landowners could prove you were on their property if you never set foot on their land? All you would need to tell the sheriff is that you never set foot on private land and stick with that story?
I don't claim to be a GPS expert but don't most GPS systems show the route you traveled and take readings anywhere along your path? That seems like it would prove where you traveled?
I don't claim to be a GPS expert but don't most GPS systems show the route you traveled and take readings anywhere along your path? That seems like it would prove where you traveled?
A
ansonlynn
Guest
I haven't worked there since before the AGs opinion, so don't know what they are doing now. Previously, on all trespassing calls - at least where I worked - the complaintant was the landowner or his agent, and the landowner/agent signed the ticket as complaintant. That meets the standard for issuing a citation, believe it's "reasonable suspicion". If the case is contested in court, the complaintant must appear and articulate the facts of the complaint. The officer/sheriff serving the citation didn't have to prove anything, that burden of proof was on the complaintant, with the judge or jury determining the preponderance of evidence.
If I could actually orient that precisely with a GPS, there are a lot better options for accessing public land legally (i.e., 1/4 section strips across terrain), where I could know where I was at, and have little worry of competition from other public hunters. You can't depend on a fence or fence corner to be on the section boundary, they are rarely located that precisely. Unless there's a survey pin at the location in question, I don't know anyone who can actually locate that point in the field with sufficient precision to step across the corner. However, I don't keep up with the cutting edge of mapping software and GPS technology, maybe it's possible now.
I'm not siding with the landowners, or Wyoming's trespass law, or defending excluding the public from public land. I am questioning anyone's ability to actually do what we are discussing, in the field, hunting. If you can't demonstrably do it - then you're really looking for a plausible excuse if caught trespassing. I think you'd lose that case in most Wyoming courts, if you could not convince the judge/jury of your ability to do what you claimed to have done. Arguing the theoretical step over the corner wouldn't cut it, and the complaintant wouldn't have to prove that "your" point was not accurate. You'd have to be able to explain the technology you used, and how you used it to positively locate that point. You'd have to convince the judge of your ability to locate that point, or he'll most likely conclude you did not. Just my opinion.
If I could actually orient that precisely with a GPS, there are a lot better options for accessing public land legally (i.e., 1/4 section strips across terrain), where I could know where I was at, and have little worry of competition from other public hunters. You can't depend on a fence or fence corner to be on the section boundary, they are rarely located that precisely. Unless there's a survey pin at the location in question, I don't know anyone who can actually locate that point in the field with sufficient precision to step across the corner. However, I don't keep up with the cutting edge of mapping software and GPS technology, maybe it's possible now.
I'm not siding with the landowners, or Wyoming's trespass law, or defending excluding the public from public land. I am questioning anyone's ability to actually do what we are discussing, in the field, hunting. If you can't demonstrably do it - then you're really looking for a plausible excuse if caught trespassing. I think you'd lose that case in most Wyoming courts, if you could not convince the judge/jury of your ability to do what you claimed to have done. Arguing the theoretical step over the corner wouldn't cut it, and the complaintant wouldn't have to prove that "your" point was not accurate. You'd have to be able to explain the technology you used, and how you used it to positively locate that point. You'd have to convince the judge of your ability to locate that point, or he'll most likely conclude you did not. Just my opinion.
Ansonlynn, those are some great points..thankyou! It would be interesting to actually go to several benchmark locations in the field and test this out with some of the latest gps equipment. If they were accurate within a foot or so and demonstrated this in the courtroom I imagine that would be the best way to plead a case?
nripepi
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,085
The corner is a point, not an area, so it is impossible to cross over that point without touching the private lands "air space".
I guess the question here is, do they have a right to the air? If so, then it would have to be illegal. If not, then you can claim you jumped from one public spot to the next without setting foot on private ground.
Checkerboard pieces of property just amaze me that they exist and to the extent that they do. You can literally have 100's of square miles of public land with no access. I guess that is why it exists.
I guess the question here is, do they have a right to the air? If so, then it would have to be illegal. If not, then you can claim you jumped from one public spot to the next without setting foot on private ground.
Checkerboard pieces of property just amaze me that they exist and to the extent that they do. You can literally have 100's of square miles of public land with no access. I guess that is why it exists.
M
muleymaster
Guest
Jim....
Apparently you need to research property right's a littler further. Even if you can find the exact corner, you would be trespassing in someone's airspace and you would be trespassing on their dirt when you drug your animal across it. You would also interfere with the right of quiet enjoyment & the federal government land agencies can not claim prescriptive use right's like private property owners can.
Apparently you need to research property right's a littler further. Even if you can find the exact corner, you would be trespassing in someone's airspace and you would be trespassing on their dirt when you drug your animal across it. You would also interfere with the right of quiet enjoyment & the federal government land agencies can not claim prescriptive use right's like private property owners can.
D
deerbedead
Guest
Now we are really splitting hairs aren't we.
I think the real true problem with this issue stems from both sides of the fence.
1. The landowners want to control their land, and keep unwanted people off it, and if possible they would like to keep people from accessing the public land that is surrounded by their private property.
2. The public person wants to access the prime hunting that is practically inside a private ranch because it is surely better hunting because practically no one knows you can access it by jumping a corner. The problem here really isn't whether or not the person violates the "airspace" of the private ranch, or disturbs a blade of grass as their boot passes over the corners or private and public. The problem arises when the hunter "forgets" where the corner is and wanders "lost" into the private, or shoots across the fence and kills an animal and tries to sneek it back across and proudly take it "legally" over the corner.
Now that is the way I see it. The landowners have had too many people trespass to believe that the public hunter is going to step exactly across the corner and stay on the public ground. The public has been chased off of public ground by private landowners who think they own it all, and neither one wants to give up the battle.
The solution would be easy if everyone would be honest.
Each landowner could mark a point of access to jump the corner with a BLM officer,or whatever agency managed the public.
It won't work, because no one would do it, but it could if they would do it once and then it would never need to be done again.
Then if a hunter got off the trail and tresspassed the landowner could shoot him.
And if any cattle crossed the fence from private to public, they would be shot as well as the cowboy that went after them to bring them back. (Just Kidding!)
I think the real true problem with this issue stems from both sides of the fence.
1. The landowners want to control their land, and keep unwanted people off it, and if possible they would like to keep people from accessing the public land that is surrounded by their private property.
2. The public person wants to access the prime hunting that is practically inside a private ranch because it is surely better hunting because practically no one knows you can access it by jumping a corner. The problem here really isn't whether or not the person violates the "airspace" of the private ranch, or disturbs a blade of grass as their boot passes over the corners or private and public. The problem arises when the hunter "forgets" where the corner is and wanders "lost" into the private, or shoots across the fence and kills an animal and tries to sneek it back across and proudly take it "legally" over the corner.
Now that is the way I see it. The landowners have had too many people trespass to believe that the public hunter is going to step exactly across the corner and stay on the public ground. The public has been chased off of public ground by private landowners who think they own it all, and neither one wants to give up the battle.
The solution would be easy if everyone would be honest.
Each landowner could mark a point of access to jump the corner with a BLM officer,or whatever agency managed the public.
It won't work, because no one would do it, but it could if they would do it once and then it would never need to be done again.
Then if a hunter got off the trail and tresspassed the landowner could shoot him.
And if any cattle crossed the fence from private to public, they would be shot as well as the cowboy that went after them to bring them back. (Just Kidding!)
J
justdada
Guest
I ran into this situation just a couple years ago...
I located the CORNER POST (land survey marker, not a fence post; matter of fact, there wasn't a fence for miles), and stepped from one checker of public to the other.
I checked over some antelope and returned to the truck a mile back, where my father was talking to the game warden.
He gave me the trespass speech, I pointed out the corner post to him, and showed him my maps... He told me, that if the landowner request that you are cited, then a ticket WILL be given, even though I never stepped foot on private land!
He also said much of what some have here, that the law is very vaige, that the issue is always on the table, and that the public land is essentially locked up to the public until the law changes.
I wasn't cited but if I were i would have fought it as I was then working for the BLM and knew precisely where I was.
The law sucks and needs to be delt with in the courts.
Another point is that free grazing rights (at one point, not sure if this has changed) required that fences be errected to keep livestock and their tenders OUT of "your" private property. This blanket could be viewed as those licensed by the state to manage state animals (ie game), in my opinion. Which would mean, no fence = fare game!
This issue will end up in court soon enough I'm guessing.
I located the CORNER POST (land survey marker, not a fence post; matter of fact, there wasn't a fence for miles), and stepped from one checker of public to the other.
I checked over some antelope and returned to the truck a mile back, where my father was talking to the game warden.
He gave me the trespass speech, I pointed out the corner post to him, and showed him my maps... He told me, that if the landowner request that you are cited, then a ticket WILL be given, even though I never stepped foot on private land!
He also said much of what some have here, that the law is very vaige, that the issue is always on the table, and that the public land is essentially locked up to the public until the law changes.
I wasn't cited but if I were i would have fought it as I was then working for the BLM and knew precisely where I was.
The law sucks and needs to be delt with in the courts.
Another point is that free grazing rights (at one point, not sure if this has changed) required that fences be errected to keep livestock and their tenders OUT of "your" private property. This blanket could be viewed as those licensed by the state to manage state animals (ie game), in my opinion. Which would mean, no fence = fare game!
This issue will end up in court soon enough I'm guessing.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,529
Don't have to drag an animal out when you quarter him and put him in a backpack. Pretty easy to do if it was legal.
Sure sounds to me like Jims needs to test this in the courts! We are behind you Jim!!!
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
Sure sounds to me like Jims needs to test this in the courts! We are behind you Jim!!!
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
>I think you'd lose that case
>in most Wyoming courts, if
>you could not convince the
>judge/jury of your ability to
>do what you claimed to
>have done. Arguing the
>theoretical step over the corner
>wouldn't cut it, and the
>complaintant wouldn't have to prove
>that "your" point was not
>accurate. You'd have to
>be able to explain the
>technology you used, and how
>you used it to positively
>locate that point. You'd
>have to convince the judge
>of your ability to locate
>that point, or he'll most
>likely conclude you did not.
> Just my opinion.
Maybe in most Wyoming Courts, maybe not and most likely not in Albany County where this matter arose. A hunter was cited for corner jumping and the judge tossed out the case. From what I read, the judge never got as theoretical as you've espoused, he simply stated the law was vague and discharged the matter. The Wyoming attorney general later stated the same. If you're concerned about trespass, you first have to get cited. Unless the WY G & F has changed they're position, they're not issuing citations for this type of case. Given the current status of affairs, I'd say until more of these cases are tried in Wyoming courts, you don't have a basis to say that someone would lose in most Wyoming courts. Several years ago, some folks surveyed some corners by Elk Mountain and then erected small bridges to cut the corners to access public lands. I know they were up for quite awhile, but I never heard the final resolution. Maybe they're still standing. If anyone knows, post up. It'd also be nice to see some of these supposed hunter groups like SFW WY use their claimed political influence to take up the cause and help create better access legislation, or put up surveyed corner bridges where large blocks of public land exist...
>in most Wyoming courts, if
>you could not convince the
>judge/jury of your ability to
>do what you claimed to
>have done. Arguing the
>theoretical step over the corner
>wouldn't cut it, and the
>complaintant wouldn't have to prove
>that "your" point was not
>accurate. You'd have to
>be able to explain the
>technology you used, and how
>you used it to positively
>locate that point. You'd
>have to convince the judge
>of your ability to locate
>that point, or he'll most
>likely conclude you did not.
> Just my opinion.
Maybe in most Wyoming Courts, maybe not and most likely not in Albany County where this matter arose. A hunter was cited for corner jumping and the judge tossed out the case. From what I read, the judge never got as theoretical as you've espoused, he simply stated the law was vague and discharged the matter. The Wyoming attorney general later stated the same. If you're concerned about trespass, you first have to get cited. Unless the WY G & F has changed they're position, they're not issuing citations for this type of case. Given the current status of affairs, I'd say until more of these cases are tried in Wyoming courts, you don't have a basis to say that someone would lose in most Wyoming courts. Several years ago, some folks surveyed some corners by Elk Mountain and then erected small bridges to cut the corners to access public lands. I know they were up for quite awhile, but I never heard the final resolution. Maybe they're still standing. If anyone knows, post up. It'd also be nice to see some of these supposed hunter groups like SFW WY use their claimed political influence to take up the cause and help create better access legislation, or put up surveyed corner bridges where large blocks of public land exist...
Leo Sheep Co v USA.
Went to the Supreme Ct of the US 2x. Uphelp both times. Jumping a corner with the best GPS in the universe is still trespassing. Its an infinate point. The second time discussed the airspace issue. ITS ILLEGAL!! Do a google search for the case. Interestingly enough its a Wyoming case.
Jims, I behind you to.....go for it big guy!
Went to the Supreme Ct of the US 2x. Uphelp both times. Jumping a corner with the best GPS in the universe is still trespassing. Its an infinate point. The second time discussed the airspace issue. ITS ILLEGAL!! Do a google search for the case. Interestingly enough its a Wyoming case.
Jims, I behind you to.....go for it big guy!
>Leo Sheep Co v USA.
>
>Went to the Supreme Ct of
>the US 2x. Uphelp both
>times. Jumping a corner with
>the best GPS in the
>universe is still trespassing. Its
>an infinate point. The second
>time discussed the airspace issue.
>ITS ILLEGAL!! Do a google
>search for the case. Interestingly
>enough its a Wyoming case.
Looks like the Judge and WY attorney general should've done a Google search. Jimbo, get ya a helicopter ride or stick to hunting Albany county and you should have a fighting chance...
http://www.casperstartribune.net/ar.../wyoming/df0fc4b4ae49db6287256e73001aeff2.txt
http://www.casperstartribune.net/ar.../wyoming/df0fc4b4ae49db6287256e73001aeff2.txt
>
>Went to the Supreme Ct of
>the US 2x. Uphelp both
>times. Jumping a corner with
>the best GPS in the
>universe is still trespassing. Its
>an infinate point. The second
>time discussed the airspace issue.
>ITS ILLEGAL!! Do a google
>search for the case. Interestingly
>enough its a Wyoming case.
Looks like the Judge and WY attorney general should've done a Google search. Jimbo, get ya a helicopter ride or stick to hunting Albany county and you should have a fighting chance...
http://www.casperstartribune.net/ar.../wyoming/df0fc4b4ae49db6287256e73001aeff2.txt
http://www.casperstartribune.net/ar.../wyoming/df0fc4b4ae49db6287256e73001aeff2.txt
H
HerbD
Guest
Very enlightening thread. I had intentions of hunting elk in area 130 south of Rawlings, but was concerned about the checkerboarding there. Can anyone here tell me if the land there is mostly fenced or open range?
Anyone hunt there to give info on access? Or should I just figure on keeping bail money in my back pocket?
Herb
Anyone hunt there to give info on access? Or should I just figure on keeping bail money in my back pocket?
Herb
The entire stretch of I80 from the Utah border to Elk Mtn (east of Rawlins) is checkerboard on each side of the highway. Just about all the BLM/state land that doesn't have a public road going through it is landlocked and off limits. That is a mind-boggling number of square miles of public land that is locked up and you can't legally hunt without permission! There are also quite a few other large chunks of public land that is off limits without permission in Wyo as well.
Obviously not every section is fenced and benchmarked. There is a lot of open range without boundary fences. I know a few ranchers and outfitters in that Rawlins country that keep a tight eye on things so you may want to be good friends with the sheriff/judge or have bail money ready!
Obviously not every section is fenced and benchmarked. There is a lot of open range without boundary fences. I know a few ranchers and outfitters in that Rawlins country that keep a tight eye on things so you may want to be good friends with the sheriff/judge or have bail money ready!
L
LionTamer
Guest
You'll also want to keep in mind that there are different types of trespass in Wyoming. Game and Fish trespass is different from criminal trespass and they have different criteria....
H
HerbD
Guest
jims,
Thanks for the warning.Perhaps I'll do a quick scouting trip through there on my way to 21,and if access looks too difficult I'll head up to Pinedale instead.Don't need any unnecessary aggravation.
It is a shame, however, to have that much unuseable public land. Probably stemming from railroad building. Congress, BLM, or the state should consolidate that land by making property trades etc. But that is a lot of wishfull thinking.
LionTamer,
That's interesting about 2 different types of trespass. I'll have to inquire about that.
Herb
Thanks for the warning.Perhaps I'll do a quick scouting trip through there on my way to 21,and if access looks too difficult I'll head up to Pinedale instead.Don't need any unnecessary aggravation.
It is a shame, however, to have that much unuseable public land. Probably stemming from railroad building. Congress, BLM, or the state should consolidate that land by making property trades etc. But that is a lot of wishfull thinking.
LionTamer,
That's interesting about 2 different types of trespass. I'll have to inquire about that.
Herb
SouthernWyo
Active Member
- Messages
- 175
It's really not ambiguous at all. The bottom line is that corner crossing is NOT a legal means of accessing public lands in Wyoming.
The WGFD does not have a statue, rule, or law which addresses corner jumping, which is why the case in Albany County was not upheld. However, if the landowner in question had chosen to prosecute "criminal trespass" charges through the Albany County Sheriff's Dept., it would have been an open and shut case of trespass.
The BLM/federal government has no say in defining legal means of access to public land - that is defined by the state. At least in Wyoming, this is limited to a public route (i.e. county, state, BLM, USFS roads, Interstate highways etc. that pass through or adjoin the parcel of public land) or permission from the landowner to cross. The BLM, county, and USFS have also purchased easements across private land to reach public in many cases, which are identified on BLM land status maps.
One other thing to keep in mind is that it's pretty clear that it is the SPORTSMAN'S responsibility to know where they are at all times in regards to land ownership. I think that some of the previous posts may have alluded that the burden of proof lies with the landowner, which may not be the best advise if you are planning on jumping the fence to try your luck on the neighbor's place.
HerbD. You're right that the large checkerboard pattern along the U.P. corridor stems from the late 1800's railroad building. The railroads were given every other section of land for 20 miles on either side of the right-of-way as an incentive to invest and build the route - obviously a pretty good deal to the railroads at the time. Land trads are probably the only realistic solution to provide unrestricted public access in these cases, but the devil is in the details and most land trades that are proposed don't bode well with either the public or the landowner, and never go anywhere.
There's actually quite a bit of checkerboard private lands that are open for the public to access, it only takes the effort to ask the landowner for permission.
The WGFD does not have a statue, rule, or law which addresses corner jumping, which is why the case in Albany County was not upheld. However, if the landowner in question had chosen to prosecute "criminal trespass" charges through the Albany County Sheriff's Dept., it would have been an open and shut case of trespass.
The BLM/federal government has no say in defining legal means of access to public land - that is defined by the state. At least in Wyoming, this is limited to a public route (i.e. county, state, BLM, USFS roads, Interstate highways etc. that pass through or adjoin the parcel of public land) or permission from the landowner to cross. The BLM, county, and USFS have also purchased easements across private land to reach public in many cases, which are identified on BLM land status maps.
One other thing to keep in mind is that it's pretty clear that it is the SPORTSMAN'S responsibility to know where they are at all times in regards to land ownership. I think that some of the previous posts may have alluded that the burden of proof lies with the landowner, which may not be the best advise if you are planning on jumping the fence to try your luck on the neighbor's place.
HerbD. You're right that the large checkerboard pattern along the U.P. corridor stems from the late 1800's railroad building. The railroads were given every other section of land for 20 miles on either side of the right-of-way as an incentive to invest and build the route - obviously a pretty good deal to the railroads at the time. Land trads are probably the only realistic solution to provide unrestricted public access in these cases, but the devil is in the details and most land trades that are proposed don't bode well with either the public or the landowner, and never go anywhere.
There's actually quite a bit of checkerboard private lands that are open for the public to access, it only takes the effort to ask the landowner for permission.
C
Colville
Guest
Seems to me that WY needs to pass a new law.
Any block of public land that has no public access should be deemed CLOSED. It should be removed from any public use including by those who border it. This should include any grazing right.
Now the people blocking up the land are trespassers too. They can either make an easement for public access or they can lose their guide service, grazing and hunting access to the same land. They'd moan something fierce but what's their argument? They should have a public benefit that he public doesn't have? I think it'd be popular but heavily lobbied against.
Any block of public land that has no public access should be deemed CLOSED. It should be removed from any public use including by those who border it. This should include any grazing right.
Now the people blocking up the land are trespassers too. They can either make an easement for public access or they can lose their guide service, grazing and hunting access to the same land. They'd moan something fierce but what's their argument? They should have a public benefit that he public doesn't have? I think it'd be popular but heavily lobbied against.
The reason I brought the corner jumping issue up was because it seemed very unclear to me what the law is in Wyoming. The Casper Star Tribute article in regard to the Albany County case made it sound like corner jumping was permitted? There are so many checkerboard sections along the I80 corridor and elsewhere in Wyoming that this issue has always been controvercial.
It would be really nice if the WG&F stepped up to the plate and explained in the regulations what is permitted and what is not in Wyoming in regard to public land. New Mexico and other states list in their regulations these issues and I'm sure it would help out the ranchers and prevent a lot of headaches!
Now that I know the criminal trespass law is valid in Wyoming I definitely won't corner jump! I always played on the safe side and never did this in the past but at least now light has been shed on the subject! I would definitely pay attention to this next time you hunt Wyoming!
It would be really nice if the WG&F stepped up to the plate and explained in the regulations what is permitted and what is not in Wyoming in regard to public land. New Mexico and other states list in their regulations these issues and I'm sure it would help out the ranchers and prevent a lot of headaches!
Now that I know the criminal trespass law is valid in Wyoming I definitely won't corner jump! I always played on the safe side and never did this in the past but at least now light has been shed on the subject! I would definitely pay attention to this next time you hunt Wyoming!
M
moneyman
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-07 AT 03:29PM (MST)[p]Hey, maybe this is a legit reason to have a chute plane. Fly right over Mr Greedy Landlock's gate.
When he looks up to see who is accessing HIS public land, all he'll see is my lily white bare ass smiling back down at him.
When he looks up to see who is accessing HIS public land, all he'll see is my lily white bare ass smiling back down at him.
If corner jumping is illegal because you are violating the rancher's "air space", then a chute plane would also be illegal for the same reason (unless you have filed a flight plan with the FAA). Hang gliding over someone's property without permission would also be illegal and the next time you tell someone to go fly a kite, think about it, because that too would be illegal if done without permission.
On the other hand, if it is legal to temporarily violate someone's air space, then I could see a situation where you should be legal if you are at the junction of 2 fences that intesect at a corner and you simply step over the fence. I would think that would be the established property boundary, surveyed in or not. Isn't that what the rancher and the gov't agency is using as the property boundary between private & public land? However, if you are simply going cross country with your GPS with no fence lines, I don't see how you make a legitimate argument to "corner crossing" when 2 public sections meet at an unestablished (i.e., no fences) "corner". Just my 2 cent worth.
On the other hand, if it is legal to temporarily violate someone's air space, then I could see a situation where you should be legal if you are at the junction of 2 fences that intesect at a corner and you simply step over the fence. I would think that would be the established property boundary, surveyed in or not. Isn't that what the rancher and the gov't agency is using as the property boundary between private & public land? However, if you are simply going cross country with your GPS with no fence lines, I don't see how you make a legitimate argument to "corner crossing" when 2 public sections meet at an unestablished (i.e., no fences) "corner". Just my 2 cent worth.
N
Nails
Guest
I'm no real-estate lawyer but, I have discussed similar issues regarding this. If I am correct the ownership of land only extends on a vertical plane if there is a structure or tree or other type of plant growth.(I.E. if i have a tree overhanging your property you could have me trim it). These are issues that need to be addressed so that there is no room for misinterpretation of the law. Some sort of easement or variance so that adjoining parcels of property can be resonably accessed is what is needed. I can understand landowners getting peeved about such issues such as (hunters retrieving game they said was legally shot on the public land and crossed onto private) but that arguement can go on and on. Ethical hunters should not have to worry about such gray areas in the laws, it is the unethical hunters that ruin it for all.
Regards, Nails.
Regards, Nails.
Just for conversation sake, does anyone know the "ceiling" of air rights for landowners? I couldn't see going through the trouble to use a chuteplane or hangglider (I don't have the stones to use one of those things anyway) for a section or two, but there are cases in Wyoming were significant chunks of BLM sections are essentially off limits because no public road runs through. If you had a 5 thousand acre block, for instance, that would give you quite a lot of landing cushion and you would be able to gain more altitude on your trip. Some of these large blocks would be accessible if corner jumping were defined as absolutely legal.
M
moneyman
Guest
Ok, you can't fly over, but what If I dig a tunnel UNDER the greedy bastages fence?
nochawk
Moderator
- Messages
- 2,976
Just my 2cents worth on this subject..
I bought a section ( 640 acres or 1 mile square) about 20 years ago down in Arkansas and had a heck of a time getting the fences all straightened out...
Originally it was surveyed with a scope in 1936 and bronze markers implanted from USGS and a fence was built with corner posts and the whole 9 yards.
using the same post/survey stake in this example:
After I bought it I had it surveyed with a laser. the first post was correct in length but off 30ft to the east.
Had it resurveyed 5 years ago ( had some timber cut) with the GPS... same post(1936 marker) was found to be off by 130ft to the west.
Both surveys were preformed by the state survey.
My point is that nobody really knows where the true corner is, they just go by the last time it was surveyed. and you also have to deal with that nice law that if a fence was erected for 10 years that is the line...
I believe that the Laser is the best way of measuring, so that is the measurement I use.
I bought a section ( 640 acres or 1 mile square) about 20 years ago down in Arkansas and had a heck of a time getting the fences all straightened out...
Originally it was surveyed with a scope in 1936 and bronze markers implanted from USGS and a fence was built with corner posts and the whole 9 yards.
using the same post/survey stake in this example:
After I bought it I had it surveyed with a laser. the first post was correct in length but off 30ft to the east.
Had it resurveyed 5 years ago ( had some timber cut) with the GPS... same post(1936 marker) was found to be off by 130ft to the west.
Both surveys were preformed by the state survey.
My point is that nobody really knows where the true corner is, they just go by the last time it was surveyed. and you also have to deal with that nice law that if a fence was erected for 10 years that is the line...
I believe that the Laser is the best way of measuring, so that is the measurement I use.
nochawk,
The original corners set by the original government survey are THE corners. They cannot be changed. Doesn't matter if they don't make a perfect section that is one mile square. Generally the same principle is true for all land surveys. Once a corner has been monumented by a licensed, and competent land surveyor, that monument will not be moved by a later survey, if found to not match the called for distance exactly.
If a parcel of land has been surveyed, and the corners monumented, then the location of the corner is where the surveyor places the monument. So yes, people do go by the last time it was surveyed. That is the purpose of surveying. So everybody knows where the corners are! Just FYI...
The original corners set by the original government survey are THE corners. They cannot be changed. Doesn't matter if they don't make a perfect section that is one mile square. Generally the same principle is true for all land surveys. Once a corner has been monumented by a licensed, and competent land surveyor, that monument will not be moved by a later survey, if found to not match the called for distance exactly.
If a parcel of land has been surveyed, and the corners monumented, then the location of the corner is where the surveyor places the monument. So yes, people do go by the last time it was surveyed. That is the purpose of surveying. So everybody knows where the corners are! Just FYI...
nochawk
Moderator
- Messages
- 2,976
Thats what I thought to begin with, my problem was that the guy who owned the other side of the fence was a county judge and he wanted that 30ft, basicly if he was paying taxes on his acreage he wanted it to be exactly, not 639 9/10th. he had it reserveyed after I did and the 2 guys coundn't agree on the line, 1 was a county surverer and the other was a state surveyer. was a big mess when I wanted to thin the timber on mine and he wanted to open a gravel pit and we needed to get it right for a road rightway to be put in on the line. He was pushing and I got onery. I didnt care if he had been the county judge for the last 40 years..
I cut my timber and pulpwood, replanted southern Pines on it with 4 whiteoaks per acre and then moved to Utah... in 30 years when The trees are ready I'll cut it again for a retirement income.
I cut my timber and pulpwood, replanted southern Pines on it with 4 whiteoaks per acre and then moved to Utah... in 30 years when The trees are ready I'll cut it again for a retirement income.
tuleelk
Active Member
- Messages
- 133
So basically landowners are keeping hunters from public ground!! NO damage was done to their property by stepping over a infinately small section of ground, so if I wave my hand over their fence am I guilty of tresspassing? It is nothing more than greedy landowners locking up public ground for their own benefit. I can see if there is no way to access the public ground without tresspassing, I mean really tresspassing such as walking on their property, but stepping over a boundary should be legal. They should be ashamed of themselves for their greed and failure to allow the public to access public land. I think these corners should be marked so anyone who wants to can cross them to access "our" public lands!!!
Joe
Joe
I can really understand both "sides of the fence!" It would be a pain in the rear if currently landlocked public land was opened up. Landowners would constantly need to patrol to make sure the public was staying on public land. It is also pretty sad that so many public acres are locked up for everyone to enjoy! Believe me, along the I80 corridor in Wyo there are literally millions (possibly trillions) of public acres that are currently off limits to the public!
N
Nails
Guest
I'm no real-estate lawyer but, I have discussed similar issues regarding this. If I am correct the ownership of land only extends on a vertical plane if there is a structure or tree or other type of plant growth.(I.E. if i have a tree overhanging your property you could have me trim it). These are issues that need to be addressed so that there is no room for misinterpretation of the law. Some sort of easement or variance so that adjoining parcels of property can be resonably accessed is what is needed. I can understand landowners getting peeved about such issues such as (hunters retrieving game they said was legally shot on the public land and crossed onto private) but that arguement can go on and on. Ethical hunters should not have to worry about such gray areas in the laws, it is the unethical hunters that ruin it for all.
Regards, Nails.
Regards, Nails.
