WHERES THE BODY SIZE GONE???

[bobcatbess]

AS TIME GOES ON I SEE THE SIZE OF UTAH DEER BODY SIZE GET SMALLER & SMALLER!!!

I REMEMBER WHEN WE HAD HUGE BODIED DEER!!!

NOW WE HAVE MATURE DEER YOU CAN PRACTICALLY THROW OVER YOUR SHOULDER!!!

YA I KNOW!!!

MAKES IT NICE FOR DRAGGING THEM OUT!!!

WTF???

FIRST THE HORN SIZE & NOW THE BODY SIZE!!!

WHAT A FRICKEN JOKE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WAITING TO HEAR A COUPLE HUNDRED DIFFERENT THEORIES???

 

[Bob D.]

I would think it could be attributed to a decrease in habitat quality and feed over the years, probably as a result of lack of fire, noxious weeds, and development on winter range. But I'm not biologist. Just a WAG.

 

[AndymanSavage]

I believe that there is a law of physics that states the following:

"The average deer body size in Utah is inversely proportional to the average female body size in the city of Altamont at any given time due to direct competition for limited food resources"


Andy

 

[canhunter]

Andy, That is some funny stuff.

 

[GHOSTINTHEWOODS]

Bob D, sounds like you could be a biologist for the DWR everyone blames it on everything but people. But if for generations and generations you kill off the superior animals all you have left is the little scrauny sob's..

P.S. bob D didn't mean for this to sound offensive.

 

[Bob D.]

But I did blame it on people. People are responsible for the degradation of the habitat. Bobcat was asking about the decrease in body size, not antler size. So that would include does as well as bucks. If body size has decreased I would blame it on a decrease in the quality of feed. I don't see how hunting can be blamed for that.

 

[Trophymossback]

IT'S BUSH'S FAULT!

 

[ismith]

Global warming!!!!!!! BUY CARBON OFFSETS, SAVE THE MULE DEER!!!!!!!!!!
ismith

 

[257Tony]

I dunno? Ive hsot a few with what I thought were big bodies?!

Somebody didn't like bouncing betty

 

[Colville]

I'm just glad that it's a settled matter. No doubt, based on the smoking gun standard or evidence,(bobcat bess says so) deer are actually shrinking.

I think it's time for a witch hun, I mean time to pin the tail, I mean time to scape goa... oh hell time to blame someone bess doesn't like.

At least we know where all the whiney/beotchy off season threads have gone.

 

[littlebighorn]

Have you seen the size of our elementary kids now days? I think it's them that ate all the deer feed! Yeh, those lard ars kids are to blame!!

 

[2_Point]

IS bobcat actually admitting that there are MATURE deer in Utah?

 

[GHOSTINTHEWOODS]

Bob D, there are some people that grow big and some people that don't. If your constantly killing 80% of a herds healthy breading stock every year you will kill off the superior animals. Just my thought. I don't see that much difference in the habitat that would decrease the deers genetic capibilities. especially in bobcats neck of the woods. but to each his own..

 

[Bob D.]

You could be right. That was just my thought on the subject. I don't even know if the body sizes of deer in Utah are getting smaller. Does Utah really kill 80% of the does?

 

[Blackdeath]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-07 AT 08:58AM (MST)[p]You said: "FIRST THE HORN SIZE & NOW THE BODY SIZE!!!"

With that said which way perzactly did you expect the body size to go? It's been my experience that small antlered deer don't generally produce big bodies. However, I've seen some gigantic antlers with small bodies come off the Arizona Strip/Kiabab. When it comes to packing them out I'll take a small body with big antlers every time.

 

[manny15]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-07 AT 11:18AM (MST)[p]I'm going with, killing off all the monster bucks leaving only inferior whimps to breed, hey it was only a matter of time right, for the last 10 years or so I've been seeing a bunch of average bucks that some people think are just monsters, 10 years ago I'd laugh @ 'em, yep just a matter of time...

 

[REDDOG]

up here on the idaho border the mature buck's have good body size, not compared too western slope deer but the only one's that cokmpare to them are from canada. maybe the alamont girls are overgrazing? maybe they need bess to be the herder and keep them from destoying the habitat!

 

[lone_hunter]

Like others, I am no biologist but I tend to agree with other's comments about range and elimination of genetics. Some areas of Wyoming that I used to hunt definately had larger bodies and long legs.

Another remote theory, I recall that there was a sort of "sub-species" called the Roman Nose. They seemed to have large bodied and large antlers. Is that legend? Were they just old deer?

Just a thought.

 

[bowhunt]

I think they have all been poached by trophy hunters...but I am ok with that, because we all speed, or steal, or have lied before.

 

[Boskee]

I'm not sure I concurr with any of the reasons I just think the world is changing. It seems in my world and many others as I travel around there are literally hundreds of items that are shrinking. I've found that chairs in the theatre aren't what they used to be. They definately have changed on airplanes. Seems I'm sitting pretty close to the guy in the next seat at the ball game now and definately too close after he's had his second chili dog. It appears that they have downsized the size of the folding lawn chair when I go camping and they appear to be watching manufacturing costs as well because they don't hold up quite as well as they used to. I was also wondering have you noticed that the guy installing the urinals in public restrooms must have shrunk too because they are installing them much lower to the floor now. This appears to be to be a bad move because few people if any seemed to be able to hit them when they were installed higher.

Then they have decided that the flush handles on toilets in public restrooms must have been too long since I can never seem to find one any more, but I must be hitting it numerous times when I'm lookin because the toilet keeps flushing multiple times when I'm on the seat. One more than one occasion I literally had the $h!T scared out of my by this and hell the first time it happened I jumped so high I fell in the bowl when I landed. Regularity isn't a problem any longer when you run into one of these babies. Funny but I have noticed that they seem to be making them a little smaller though because I have the seat ring around the inside of my thighs. So you see with things downsizing all over I guess it only seems right that Mother Nature would do the same with our deer, although she doesn't seem to be stopping the growth on everything because I've noticed my ear lobes are now hanging down below my jaw and they seem to keep growing hair on them. Well gotta go my Ice Cream Sundae is ready!

 

[plannerman]

Just checked with Al Gore, yep, it's global warming. Too warm down there to support big body sizes. Something about I think "Bergman's Theory or rule", or something of the sort to do with colder climates, larger bodies, etc....

If all goes well, we can stalk larger deer in the future as we burn ethanol, ride bikes, dump aerosol (especially deodorant, and sneak up on them in our natural fiber clothing and sandals.

 

[BigFin]

I think plannerman is right.

Add that to the fact that Dan Marino has converted most the porked out bucks to his pyramid-schemed Nutri-System diet, and the surgeon general has started an experiment to remove trans-fats from the UT bitterbrush, and what do you expect to happen?

Furthermore, the real bad ass bucks have migrated to Colorado. Don't believe me, just read the Huntin' Fool. It has left UT with nothing but a bunch of limp-wrist wanna' be's.

I suspect the remaining bucks are on that "natural male enhancement" stuff that BOB is promoting on the Outdoor Channel every five minutes. It is reducing their core body size for the benefit of other body parts. Once you field dress them and get rid of that other "enhanced" part, the total body weight has diminished significantly.

Yup, that's it. Mystery solved.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"

 

[alwayzbhuntin]

All the wheelers chasing them around has ran them ragged, therefore causing dramatic weight loss, hence passed on to offspring to stay thin and agile to avoid being run down by one.

 

[Daxter]

I talked with the guy who was the biologist on the Cache in Northern Utah for a lot of years (he is now retired). They used to weigh the deer at the checkstation until just a few years ago, and he said that weights have not really changed. There are always some extremes, but average weights haven't changed that much. I think it might just be that folks are shooting lots of 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer that just haven't had the chance to get big bodies yet. I would like to see more data though, lets weigh some deer this fall and see what the weights are like compared to the old numbers.
Dax

 

[Colville]

WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKIN BOUT DAX!!!!

YOU GOT ALL THE DATA YOU EVER NEED, I TOLD YOU THEY WERE SMALLER!!!

YOU WANT TA COME DOWN HERE AND SAY THAT TO MY FACE???!!!

DON'T SPEED ON YER WAY MM ANGEL PANTY WASTE OR I WON'T INTRODUCE YOU TO MY POACHER FRIENDS AND I'LL TUNE UP YER QUAD!!!

THE ONLY COLVILLE THAT THINKS YOU DON'T KNOW ANYONE IN THE NORTH AND AINT NEVER SEEN A NOMAD BUCK!! NOT EVEN THE SMALLER ONES THAT ARE ALL THAT'S LEFT!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!! caps caps caps !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bobcatbess]

Daxter!!!

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

HOW OLD IS THIS BIOLOGIST THATS ALREADY RETIRED & THAT DOESN'T REMEMBER BIGGER BODIED DEER IN UTAH???

YOU LET PEOPLE LIKE THIS BRAINWASH YOU WITH THEIR BULL$HIT HUH???

THEN YOU SUCK IT UP???

WTF???

AVERAGE WEIGHTS HAVE CHANGED A BUNCH,AND I DON'T DON'T GIVE A DAMN RATHER YOU WANT TO BELIEVE ME OR YOUR BIOLOGIST BUDDY!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT MIGHT OF BEEN BORN LATE,BUT IT WASN'T YESTERDAY,I HAVE SEEN THE CHANGES WITH MY OWN TWO EYES AND YES IT HAS HAPPENED & NO I'M NOT CALLING THE DWR TO VERIFY IT!!!

 

[Daxter]

What, you aren't even going to challenge me to a fistfight? Well, I guess Collville almost did.
I will have to take a look at the data again and see what it said.

I belive, and this might sound a little out there to some, but I belive that body size is a function of age, nutrition and genetics. If bigger bodied deer also have bigger antlers than we may have altered the genetics in some areas, but some would argue that trophy hunting doesn't significantly alter genetics. If habitat quality has declined then body size would have decreased, and I can belive that.

I guess I should just believe everything I hear from a guy on MM. You have to consider the source.

Dax

 

[bobcatbess]

Dax!!!

I DON'T KNOW HOW OLD YOU ARE???

BUT IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE BODY SIZE CHANGE!!!

AND THE BIOLOGIST HASN'T SEEN THE BODY SIZE CHANGE!!!

YOU'RE NOT VERY OLD!!!

AND THE BIOLOGIST IS BULLSHIPPING YOU!!!

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE ME!!!

BUT I SURE GET A KICK OUT OF GUYS THAT WILL RUN TO A BIOLOGIST & SUCK CRAP LIKE THAT IN!!!

I'M DRAWING THE LINE!!!

THE BODY SIZE OF UTAH MULE DEER USED TO BE MUCH BIGGER/HEAVIER!!!

BELIEVE ME OR BELIEVE THE OTHER GUY!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!! }> }> }>

 

[bobcatbess]

AND HH!!!

I SAID DEER!!!

NOT DEAR!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!!

 

[Colville]

assuming you are correct about body size....

A. so what.
B. to what do you attribute it?
C. what is your solution.... other than to beotch about size?
D. Why would a biologist be invested in lying about historic size?
E. Other than making truisms (because you say so)do you offer either analysis, evidence or solutions... ever?

The only Colville that needs more than your say so and an invitation to some grill work and a wheeler tune up. Put up or.... post in caps some more.

 

[WyoXtec]

The elk seem to be doing fine.

 

[BrianID]

Daxter, I don't think you get it. A biologist that studies deer and has weighed hundreds of them over the years isn't a good source of information.

You need to go to a reliable source like bobcatbess on the MM internet forum. Stuff that is posted on internet forums is the most accurate information you can find. Bobcat already told you that the size has decrease. This should be taken as gospel.

bobcatbess, I know you can take a joke but I'm still expecting to see an all caps response from you.

 

[sagehnter]

Harry that's just nasty!!!

 

[bobcatbess]

HEY JACKASS!!!

AND THAT IS CAP LOCKED!!!

THE SOLUTION WOULD HAVE TO BE SO DRASTIC TO BRING MONSTER MULEYS BACK TO THE BANNER DAYS OF THE 1960'S AND THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF THE 1970'S THAT IT JUST CAN'T HAPPEN!!!

TOO MANY PISSCUTTIN BEACHES WOULD BE WHINNING/CRYING BECAUSE EVERYBODY IN THEIR FAMILY COULDN'T HUNT MULEYS EVERY FRICKEN YEAR!!!

THEY THINK ITS THEIR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO SHOOT EVERY PISSCUTTER THEY SEE!!!

I'D SAY WITH HUNTING SEASONS RUNNING CONTINUOUS & OVERLAPPED FROM MID AUGUST THRU JANUARY DOESN'T HELP ANY OF THE UTAH DEER HERDS!!!

LETS SEE YOU RUN YOUR DOMESTIC CATTLE HERDS AROUND LIKE THAT & SEE HOW WELL THEY'D FAIR???

THERES PROBABLY 30 FACTORS INVOLVED!!!

I AIN'T BEACHING ABOUT THE SIZE BEACH!!!

I ASKED YOU WHAT YOUR OPPINION/TAKE WAS ON THE MATTER!!!

BUT I GUESS SOME OF YOU ARE TOO YOUNG TO EVER OF KNOWM/SEEN IT???

OR TOO ARROGANT TO SEE CHANGES IN UTAH HERDS???

QUESTION D:YOU CAN BELIEVE ME OR YOU CAN BELIEVE A BIOLOGIST THAT WILL SAY ANYTHING TO PROTECT HIS JOB!!!

EVIDENTALLY YOU BOYS WILL BELIEVE ANYTHING AS LONG AS IT CAME FROM A BIOLOGIST???

AND I'M NOT KNOCKING THEM GUYS BUT IF YOU BELIEVE THAT BULL$HIT ABOUT THE BODY SIZE NOT REALLY CHANGING OVER THE YEARS GO AHEAD,SUCKERS!!!

QUESTION E:WELL I GUESS MY EYES HAVE LIED TO ME OVER THE DECADES,THAT OR I MUST BE GETTING STRONGER AS I GET OLDER,I REMEMBER WHEN IT TOOK 2-3 GUYS TOO LOAD A BIG BUCK,NOW I CAN SLAM LOAD ONE BY MYSELF,ACCORDING TO YOU & YOUR BIOLOGIST BUDDIES I DIDN'T REALLY SEE WHAT I SEEN!!!

AS I STATED ABOVE,THE SOLUTIONS WOULD BE SO DRASTIC ALL THE MM ANGELS WOULD REALLY BE MAD AT ME FOR A VERY LONG TIME,HELL WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!!!

THATS KINDA HOW IT WORKS IN UTARD,DWR DOESN'T REALLY WANT THE MAJORITY MAD SO GO AHEAD & BE PROUD OF YOUR PISSCUTTER!!!

AND AS MENTIONED ABOVE!!!

IT USE TO BE THAT SOME PEOPLE NEEDED THE MEAT & PIZZ ON THE HORNS!!!

TODAY ITS I WANT A BIG RACK & PIZZ ON THE MEAT/BODY,THE SMALLER THE BETTER,IT MAKES AN EASIER DRAG,WTF???

I CAN HELP WITH THE TUNE-UP!!!

CHANGING HORN & BODY SIZE IS SOMETHING THATS BEYOND MY CONTROL,I JUST FIGURED I'D SEE HOW MANY OF YOU ARE PAYING ATTENTION IN LIFE AND AS I FIGURED SOME OF YOU JUST CAN'T SEE THE CHANGES OR ARE TOO ARROGANT TOO ACCEPT THEM!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WAITING FOR THE NEXT BATCH OF COMMENTS FROM THE PISSCUTTIN MM ANGELS!!!

 

[boneaddict]

Pert near the worst thing I have ever seen! THATS disgusting!

If you were up here, you'd blame it on the blacktails interbreeding with the Muleys. Don't know about down there.

 

[GHOSTINTHEWOODS]

I don't know about you guys you can put all the confidence you want in the biologists, I'm sticking with my post and with bobcat. Its info from them that has our deer herds in the bad condition they are in now.

 

[Gator]

I would put my faith in a local locker plant that has kept books on every deer they have taken in for the last several years over Bobcat or a Biologist. Dress weight will tell the story whats what. I have seen the logs and some years they get better weight then other years and it's a factor of things that decides how much weight a deer will put on in a year or lifetime, AGE and FOOD will make 300 lber's take away one or the other you have a low weight deer.

 

[manny15]

maybe this will help?

 

[bobcatbess]

DAMN!!!

MAYBE THEY BETTER CONTACT THE BIOLOGIST & MAKE SURE THESE BUCKS WERE TAKEN ON THE EARTH AS WE KNOW IT???

AMAZING HOW SOME OF THE SMALLER/MEDIUM SIZED BUCKS IN THE PICTURE HAVE GOOD SIZED BODIES AIN'T IT???

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING THE PICTURE MUST BE A PHONY,NOBODY'S GONNA BELIEVE ME NOR THE PICTURE,I'M WAITING FOR THE MM ANGELS TO SCREAM PHOTO-SHOP JOB,WTF???

 

[GHOSTINTHEWOODS]

Hey gator If your 5'10" tall, age and all the food in the world ain't gonna make you 6'2".

 

[BrianID]

bobcat, you know I'm just stirring it
How many days until next season? LOL

 

[manny15]

Last time I took a buck with a body size like that was back in the Hoeback in 91....

 

[manny15]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-07 AT 10:49PM (MST)[p]

 

[MTQuivers]

Bobcat,

I have to agree with you about the deer size. I killed a 185" buck in Utah this year and its body wasn't very big. I boned it out and packed the entire deer out by myself in one LONG 2 1/2 hour trip. (It was pretty rutted out though) On the contrary my friend shot a deer (around 170") in Wyoming and when I walked up to it I couldn't believe my eyes. It's body was ENORMOUS! We got a 4 wheeler pretty close on that one and it was still a struggle to load it with 3 of us. There are still some big bodied deer in Utah but I beleive as a whole Wyoming deer are bigger in body size. At least the area I hunted. In 15+ years of hunting in Utah I have never seen a deer on the ground that even compared with the two wyoming bucks I saw last year. Just my opinion.

P.S. BOBCAT IF YOU ARE LOADING WHOLE DEER IN YOUR TRUCK BY YOURSELF IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE SHOOTING PISSCUTTERS FROM THE ROAD.

 

[bobcatbess]

MTQuivers!!!

I CAN TELL YOU'VE BEEN TO UTAH!!!

ONE MORNING LAST YEAR!!!

I HEADED UP A RIDGE ON FOOT!!!

HEARD A WHEELER COMMING UP THE BOTTOM!!!

I SEN A COUPLE OF PISSCUTTERS NOT FROM THE ROAD THOUGH!!!

THIS JACKASS ON THE WHEELER KEPT A COMMING!!!

I COULD TELL HE'D PAST THE END OF THE ROAD!!!

I HEARD THE WHEELER SHUT OFF!!!

BOOM!!!

BOOM,BOOM!!!

THIS OLE BOY WAS WOUND UP!!!

I WALKED BACK DOWN THINKING I'D NOT SEEN/MISSED SEEING A BETTER BUCK!!!

THE GUY TELLS ME HE JUST SHOT A DANDY!!!

SO I'M THINKING I SCREWED UP!!!

THEN HE ASKS ME IF I CAN HELP HIM DRAG THE DEER OFF THE HILL & DOWN TO HIS WHEELER???

I THOUGHT WHY NOT!!!

BEATS ANOTHER ILLEAGAL TRAIL BEING BLAZED!!!

I GRABBED THE BUCK(SMALL 3 POINT!!!)BY MYSELF & DRUG IT DOWN TO HIS WHEEKLER NON STOP!!!

WE TALKED A BIT AS HE GUTTED IT BY THE WHEELER!!!

I TOLD HIM I WASN'T GETTING MUCH HUNTIN DONE & I'D BEST BE ON MY WAY!!!

HE THEN ASKS IF I CAN HELP HIM LOAD IT!!!

I THOUGHT WHY NOT!!!

I GRABBED IT & SLAMMED THE BUCK UP ON THE WHEELER!!!

WTF???

LIKE I SAID ABOVE!!!

I'M EITHER GETTING TOUGHER AS I GET OLDER!!!

OR THAT BIOLOGIST IS FLAT ASS WRONG!!!

I DO BELIEVE THE LATER OF THE TWO!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING I'M BLIND IN ONE EYE & CAN'T SEE A DAMN THING OUT OF THE OTHER EYE BUT I CAN STILL SEE ENOUGH TO SEE THEM UTAH DEER ARE SHRINKING,MAKES FOR A NICE DRAG/LOAD THOUGH!!!

 

[JakeH]

My dad told me that when he was 15 there hunting party killed 9 bucks that weighed at least 300 Lbs dressed and they wernt super huge horned bucks just average bucks, you defently dont see that now...

I havent ever seen one that big but I have seen some weth dressed weights of 250+.

A guy I work with killed a buck in MT a couple years back that he figured would have been 400 live weight, the mount is huge they had to lengthen and widen the largest manican they could find, the damn thing looks like a elk.

But just from looking at all the old time pics and listening to the people that have been around awhile I feel its safe to say that the deer are loseing weight.

and thats my oppinon.



Jake H. MM Member since 1999.

 

[Gator]

Ghost you must be a Biologist. I guess you can grow longhorns cows and breed them with Heresfords Bull and change the type of weight they will put on and see a better weight gain, Oh wait that has already been done, But Now we can take a skinny little sh*t and have him marry a Amazon woman and put out some man-size kids It called gentics, Same is true about NORTHERN DEER they are the same deer in gentics but they get bigger growing up north due to the type of winters they have make it thru, You want bigger buck you have let them get age on them DO YOU STILL WEIGHT THE SAME AS YOU DID AS A TEENAGE. I'm betting no because age have put on weight you just like it has a ton of us, Now some stay pencil then all their lifes,( again Gentics) I know it takes a rocket scientist to figure it all out, I still will take a good log book from the local meat plant and see that the deer have got smaller BUT Younger too. The older age class bucks still coming into the locker is still dressing out close to what they did 15 years ago. The problem is that their are getting few and fwer of those class bucks, If you want to see what is going on try seeing how many 7-8 year old bucks are in the herd compared to 2-3 years bucks.

 

[GHOSTINTHEWOODS]

gator what state are you from? Can you explain to me,stop well first off you keep talking about age I agreed with that 100% you have to have age for a certain animal to reach it's optimal body weight, but how come the deer in kansas grow to be huge 200 + pounds dressed and 100 miles away in oklahoma they top out at 150-160 pounds dressed. they say they are a different sub-species? I don't know but they are damn sure bigger in antler and body size. now say one of those deer migrate down to oklahoma, have offspring with bigger body weights and horn size than the original oklahoma deer he bred with. then over the next 10 years hunters proceed to kill The original buck and all of his offspring. His larger genetics are now gone period. I'm not tring to get in a pissing match with you I'm just tring to understand...

 

[shelbys]

Here is a deer we got a few years ago in Idaho. This big boy had a HUGE fat belly. I do know what you mean though; we've killed our fair share of small bodied deer with big antlers too! I've wondered if Utah deer could be a different sub-species than the desert mule deer of Southern Idaho. The Utah deer seem much smaller with smaller heads. Maybe just a chance coincidence, but maybe not??

 

[Gator]

I think there are some sub-species of Muledeer But they are usually seprated by something more then a state line, I was born and raised in South Dakota, We get both Whitey and Muley that break the magic mark of 300 lbs a few each year make it to that weight, Cornfed deer do put the weight on jus like beef cows.We too have some bucks that aren't very big( Bodywise) but have a great set of horns,Kind of like runts of the litter thing, But the really big bodied ones make the racks look small(have missed judged more nice ones that way) Yes I use to cut meat for a living, I have weighted in alot of deer, So yes I have seen the log books, You have alot of things that will turn a so-so year into a great one for weight and horns, Nice wet late spring, thundershowers in the summer great feed for all the horn and body growing season and a early snowfall to move those big ones out of those deep dark hiding places, Then you see the weight and age jump up. Take the big snow storm (UTAH)a couple of years back man the weight jumped up alot because a lot of older class bucks was taken then the following year it dropped back down again not as much snow not as many Big bucks pushed down to be taken, If you look at SE Utah I do believe the 5 day seasons are having a good turn-around in that area, I have seen better bucks in that unit because of the short season, Are they getting bigger I think so, I know age class is starting to creep up and that is a good sign for 5- 10 years down the road. You Can over SHOOT a area and killing to many of the Big Bucks does a harm to the overall herds you bet. If you have 500 great Bucks and you have 300 taken in a snow year, you just left a bunch of does that will be breed by smaller bucks as long as those bucks are of the same gene pool as the bigger bucks your good, But if they are of a 2x3 buck that isn't in a good genetics class type buck, you have just witness the start of the downfall of that herd because as more of those "Good tpye bucks are killed the more those bad genetics creep in. It's kind of like you don't let a shetland pony stud breed your $10,000 dollar quarter mare and hope for a top roper. That is what is happening in some area's they need some new genetics brung back in to off-set the damage that has already happen. But that my opinion Heck I could be wrong, But that's the way I see it.

 

[elk_horn]

Ive hunted Utah all my life and Im now 55.... the deer in the northern part of the state have larger bodies then the Southern part of the state. My son shot a deer this last season in the northern region and it was a dandy both body and horns... but it seems to me we dont see the real big bodied deer we used to see in the early 70's.

 

[bonepiler]

There is a pretty reliable and simple rule when it comes to body size. As you increase latitidue, you increase body size. This relates to the surface area/volume ratio of an animals body and its ability to maintain its heat and energy. Larger bodied animals can maintain body temperatures better than smaller animals. This is obvious when comparing whitetail deer in Texas with Canada whitetails. It it cold in Canada. Texas whitetails need more surface area (less body size) to stay cool. The same thing can be seen with elevational gradients (desert deer vs mountain deer within a couple of hundred miles). It gets colder at higher elevations. There is as much variability in deer as there is with people; some fat, some skinny, some tall, some short. I think people in the past had more big fat ones to choose from. I dont really think it is much more complicated than that.

 

[bobcatbess]

bonepiler!!!

THERE IS SOME TRUTH TO YOUR THEORY!!!

BUT WHAT ABOUT PLACES WHERE THE BIG BODIED BOYS USED TO BE & NOW THEY CAN NOT BE FOUND???

BELIEVE ME THE "latitidue" AND THE ALTITUDE HAS NOT CHANGED!!!

I BELIEVE WHEN AREA'S HAVE BEEN SHOT OUT!!!

OVER HUNTED!!!

MIS-MANAGED!!!

FOR MANY YEARS!!!

ITS KINDA HARD TO BRING THEM BIG BOYS BACK NO MATTER WHAT TACTICS ARE USED!!!

WHEN THE UNITS/AREA'S HAVE BEEN SHOT OUT (AND THERES BEEN SEVERAL IN UTAH!!!)AND THE HERD HAS TO RELY ON A SPIKE WITH MILK ON HIS LIP WHO IS BREEDING HIS MOTHER IT MAKES A TOUGH SITUATION!!!

THE LaSALS MANY MOONS AGO HAD BIG BODIED DEER!!!

NOW I CAN THROW THE BIGGEST PISSCUTTER ON THE LaSALS OVER MY SHOULDER,THE ELEVATION HASN'T CHANGED AND THE REGION/UNIT SHOULD OF BEEN MANAGED WAY BETTER THAN THE WAY ITS BEEN MANAGED AND I SURE AS HELL AIN'T GETTING TOUGHER AS I GET OLDER!!!

WELL,I'LL SHUT UP NOW!!!

THAT OUGHT TO BE ENOUGH TO PI$$ ALL THE OPPORTUNISTS OFF!!!

I BELIEVE THERE ARE MORE THAN A DOZEN REASONS WHY THE BODY/HORN SIZES HAVE CHANGED OVER THE YEARS!!!

BUT LIKE A FEW HAVE TOLD ME,I'M NO BIOLOGIST & I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT,UNLESS IT COMES OUT OF A BIOLOGISTS MOUTH IT AIN'T GOSPEL!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!! }> }> }>

 

[bonepiler]

I would have to agree with you Bobcat. Can't be having spikes with 2 inch antlers breeding the does each fall and expect to pass on good genes. I would agree it has played a big part of reducing deer size in many areas.

 

[bobcatbess]

FINALLY!!!

SOMEBODY THAT AGREES WITH THE OLE cat!!!

THAT DON'T HAPPEN OFTEN AROUND HERE!!!

THESE HERDS THAT COME BACK FROM INTERBREEDING DUE TO THE HERD BEING ALMOST SHOT OUT IS NEVER A GOOD THING!!!

THERES HILLBILLY'S HERE IN THE BASIN THATS TRIED IT AND THESE ARE SOME REAL SMARTSTERS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING THE BANNER DAYS OF THE MULE DEER WILL NEVER APEAR AGAIN THANKS TO THE SMARTEST BREED ON THE PLANET!!!

 

[Show_Me_Your_Rack]

I cant tell if the deer are getting smaller because i am only 18 but i can tell you that a couple years back my grandpa shot a buck on a ridge about 400 yards away then it went about 100 more before it tipped over it was about a 24" 4x4 and he said that he would go back to camp on the wheeler and he wanted me to go gut it at only a little over 15 i got that deer gutted and down to the road in about a 1/2 hour my grandpa could not belive his eyes he said that when he was a kid he remembers those deer being twice that size!!! But with the deer getting smaller sure does make good reasons for me missing them!!!!

THE ONLY show_me_your_rack SAYING THAT I AGREE WITH BOBCAT 100%

YOU AINT GOING TO KILL A BIG BUCK UNLESS THERE IS A BIG BUCK WHERE YOUR HUNTING!!!