C
camuleycrazy
Guest
Anyone read the articles in Muley Crazy about high fences and pen raised mule deer in Mexico. What do you guys think about this stuff. Incredible quality of bucks taken in Mexico on an off year!
3
30buck
Guest
I didn't think the Mexico bucks are high fenced. I think he was talking about a place in the states. I'll have to go back to the article and look. Anyway if i see any Mule Deer in a fence I'm letting them all out. Just so ya all know.
cabinfever
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,382
Not all ranches in Mexico are high fenced, but make no mistake they have them. There was one outfit at the big show in SLC that was marketing them. 15K for a hunt. As long as the Mexican goverment continues to take a passive approach to wildelife management, I think we will see a lot more of these high fenced outfits.
Mike
Mike
T
TFinalshot
Guest
I guess I dont see what difference it makes high fence or not in mexico when only guys with deeeeep pockets and lots of time off can make it a hunt, you might as well get what you pay for ay?
High fence mule deer in mexico and the USA for that matter is what soon will seperate the hunters from the shooters. . . and the men from the boys. . .
As for Mexico, exept for ecological and biological reasones I could give a rats you know what about high fences in mexico because there's no fair chase in mexico anymore anyhow. . . it's all about putting up the cash. Mind you I did not say it was easy to hunt mexico or that there's a booner behind every bush, I know better, but I am saying is that it hardly amounts to fair chase if only guys who pay big bucks get to play. . .
High fence mule deer in mexico and the USA for that matter is what soon will seperate the hunters from the shooters. . . and the men from the boys. . .
As for Mexico, exept for ecological and biological reasones I could give a rats you know what about high fences in mexico because there's no fair chase in mexico anymore anyhow. . . it's all about putting up the cash. Mind you I did not say it was easy to hunt mexico or that there's a booner behind every bush, I know better, but I am saying is that it hardly amounts to fair chase if only guys who pay big bucks get to play. . .
W
Warren
Guest
It may not be "fair chance", but I would say it is "fair chase" when there is no fence involved.
D
D13er
Guest
T,
Sell a couple of them park goat photo's and you too could afford Mexico.
JB
Sell a couple of them park goat photo's and you too could afford Mexico.
JB
H
huntsonora
Guest
>T,
>
>Sell a couple of them park
>goat photo's and you too
>could afford Mexico.
>
>JB
Just spewed iced tea all over my computer! Damn thats funny!
Warren said it best, Sonora may not be "fair chance" but there is still some hunts that are "fair chase". Unfortunately there are more high fence operations going in every year. Its a zoo down there anymore, I miss the way it was.
Drum
>
>Sell a couple of them park
>goat photo's and you too
>could afford Mexico.
>
>JB
Just spewed iced tea all over my computer! Damn thats funny!
Warren said it best, Sonora may not be "fair chance" but there is still some hunts that are "fair chase". Unfortunately there are more high fence operations going in every year. Its a zoo down there anymore, I miss the way it was.
Drum
L
Lowlandmulies
Guest
T
That is one of the most ridiculous statements that i have every heard you respond to.
Should we hammer on you because you spend 6,000 to 7,000 dollars for a lens to do what you enjoy! I think not! Should we hammer on you because you are taking pictures of park animals! I think not! It's what you enjoy.
So why bash on me because I spent some money to go on a hunt that I have dreamed about for years. And yes it was fair chase. I got lucky and harvested the largest buck to come of the ranch in years. The next biggest in the last 8 years is a 186 inch buck. We are not paying for a big buck, Just the opportunity to hunt where some of them still live. I save money to do what I love doing and that is chasing mule deer. You save money to buy a new lens and chase mule deer.
Sure there might be guys hunting high fenced ranches and buying deer, But there is also the guy like me who saves his hard earned money to experience a dream hunt every few years. so please don't lump all mexico hunters into the same rich group of hunters!
So enjoy your lens and I will enjoy those awesome memories I brought back from old Mexico.
Respectfully
Steve Alderman
That is one of the most ridiculous statements that i have every heard you respond to.
Should we hammer on you because you spend 6,000 to 7,000 dollars for a lens to do what you enjoy! I think not! Should we hammer on you because you are taking pictures of park animals! I think not! It's what you enjoy.
So why bash on me because I spent some money to go on a hunt that I have dreamed about for years. And yes it was fair chase. I got lucky and harvested the largest buck to come of the ranch in years. The next biggest in the last 8 years is a 186 inch buck. We are not paying for a big buck, Just the opportunity to hunt where some of them still live. I save money to do what I love doing and that is chasing mule deer. You save money to buy a new lens and chase mule deer.
Sure there might be guys hunting high fenced ranches and buying deer, But there is also the guy like me who saves his hard earned money to experience a dream hunt every few years. so please don't lump all mexico hunters into the same rich group of hunters!
So enjoy your lens and I will enjoy those awesome memories I brought back from old Mexico.
Respectfully
Steve Alderman
smokepolejohnson
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,335
In my experience the only gaurantee in mexico is that the tecate is ice cold, and that 200 inch bucks are alive and well chasin does in january. There is nothing that compares to a big framed sonarah muley. As far as the high fence operations it is inevitable and sad.... It the corn feeder pedro.....
I think we probably can put this in terms that T can relate too. There are many canned photo sessions going on out there. It actually has divided the outdoor photographers big time. You see all these pics of snarling mountain lions and howling wolves out there are actually someone's pet. Photographers are paying big money to have the trainer take the pet out to a nice scenic location and then they snap a ton of pics of the lion or wolf or grizz up close and personal and sell them to the mags for a ton of money. The art of photography is still there, but the idea of snapping pictures of a pet and not a wild animal has some purest photographers wanting disclaimers on the photos. Now, take this one step furthur. There are the purests that feel Park animals are the same as the pet animals. The art is still performed, yet the challenge of getting up close and personal on a truley 'wild' animal is not that hard. So T, do you see where I'm going with this? You probably are one of those purests that shuns those that take pics of pet animals, just like most on this site shun those that hunt 'highfences', yet we don't shun you for taking park animal photos and you shouldn't shun those that hunt the real wild Mexico right?
L
Lowlandmulies
Guest
BC
Congrats! A well deserved trophy. I bet your still on a high. What a story!
Steve
Congrats! A well deserved trophy. I bet your still on a high. What a story!
Steve
Steve,
Thanks. I'm still waiting for my issue to come so I can see how it turned out. It seems it always takes forever to arrive up here in the Great White North. The MnT high has now been replaced by watching my 10 yr old boy kill his first bear this past week. I know you like hunting the bruins, check out the pics I posted in the General Hunting Forum.
Thanks. I'm still waiting for my issue to come so I can see how it turned out. It seems it always takes forever to arrive up here in the Great White North. The MnT high has now been replaced by watching my 10 yr old boy kill his first bear this past week. I know you like hunting the bruins, check out the pics I posted in the General Hunting Forum.
I too saved my hard earned money and went to Mexico last December. I was in the right place at the right time with my buck (some of you have seen my pic of my 212" gross typical buck). It was my dream to take this hunt for the past 20 years and finally got to. All I can say is that the Sonora I saw was extremely wild and rather untouched. Probably the way Arizona was 50 years ago. I hope the high-fences don't catch on like they did here in Texas.
I would say that at least 80% of high fence hunts are fair chase! Just because a ranch has a high fence, don't make it a canned hunt. And bashing this kind of hunting, is no different than Jim Jumbo bashing simi-auto rifles. If its not your cup of tea, don't do it. But don't join with the anti's and bash someone that does. No one says a word about all the baiting of bears, or shooting at a water hole, or out of alfalfa field, but put up a corn feeder, and it is horrible. Most of all this rederic about high fences and feeding is grossly misunderstood. The areas this takes place is not vast open spaces of government land, like some of the northwest. It is 95% privately owned. And as all you know, a lot of areas up there are being swallowed up at an alarming rate. As more of it dissapears, you will see more ranches put up high fences.
M
moneyman
Guest
LAST EDITED ON May-19-07 AT 07:06AM (MST)[p]>Mind you I did not
>say it was easy to
>hunt mexico or that there's
>a booner behind every bush,
>I know better, but I
>am saying is that it
>hardly amounts to fair chase
>if only guys who pay
>big bucks get to play.
>. .
What you really mean is that it's not fair to YOU. Deer don't know or care if the guy pulling the trigger is on welfare or rich.
>say it was easy to
>hunt mexico or that there's
>a booner behind every bush,
>I know better, but I
>am saying is that it
>hardly amounts to fair chase
>if only guys who pay
>big bucks get to play.
>. .
What you really mean is that it's not fair to YOU. Deer don't know or care if the guy pulling the trigger is on welfare or rich.
M
manny15
Guest
LAST EDITED ON May-19-07 AT 09:13AM (MST)[p]LOL, I see some people are pretty sensitive about this subject...it's the future get used to it...
B
bigblock455
Guest
High fenced hunting? Wow thats about as fun as a healthly man joining a handi capped foot race and bragging about winning.
D
D13er
Guest
I figgered Tfinal Stauffer would have been here by now defending himself, hmmmmf.
JB
JB
T
TFinalshot
Guest
LAST EDITED ON May-19-07 AT 10:49PM (MST)[p]Sorry I did not reply sooner, I was gone, and I lost track of this post. I think my reply to the question was true and it did not single anyone out. I guess I'd like to know why you guys think what I said is wrong ? NOT why you think I'm a hypocrite, (although I don't see how hunting a buck after paying nothing less than $15,000 has any relationship to photographing an animal in a national park) you've already made that clear.
I also think that making the comparison that BCBUD made about as much sense as me bringing up the fact that the US timber industry was brought down because the canadians flood the market with low cost timber. I know, that's what I thought when I read your post - HUH, what the heck is he talking about. . .
Here?s the original question, in case you guys missed it ? I think most of you did.
"Anyone read the articles in Muley Crazy about high fences and pen raised mule deer in Mexico. What do you guys think about this stuff. Incredible quality of bucks taken in Mexico on an off year!
I responded to the question, I was not picking on anyone but by the sounds of the thread some guys took my reply the wrong way.
I dont care if you spend your money on a hunt, hell I spend a ton on hunting, it's just that I choose to live a lifestyle that allows me to hunt year around in exchange I dont make much money. Since i'm always out in the mountains some place, I spend money year around on gas, on food, on camping, wear and tear on my boots and rice rocket pick-up. So, if I sat at home and drug my lazy ars out for a couple canned, paid hunts every hear it would cost less, especially because I'd be making a ton more money than I now am! That said, I would not trade my lifestyle for anything!
Never shot behind a fence or a zoo.
Anyhow, spend away, it is a fact that you MUST have the big bucks to hunt the big bucks in Sonora, therefore it aint fair, I did not say it aint fun or it aint a challenge or it aint hunting, I said it aint fair (but what is these days) - just like it aint fair that guys in utah cant hunt their own state unless they have deeeep pockets. It aint fair, but it is what it is. .
I've never posted nore have I shot anything behind a fence. I also dont shoot in the park very much - i have said this a dozen times, I dont shoot much in the park, it's just not that great.
I also think that making the comparison that BCBUD made about as much sense as me bringing up the fact that the US timber industry was brought down because the canadians flood the market with low cost timber. I know, that's what I thought when I read your post - HUH, what the heck is he talking about. . .
Here?s the original question, in case you guys missed it ? I think most of you did.
"Anyone read the articles in Muley Crazy about high fences and pen raised mule deer in Mexico. What do you guys think about this stuff. Incredible quality of bucks taken in Mexico on an off year!
I responded to the question, I was not picking on anyone but by the sounds of the thread some guys took my reply the wrong way.
I dont care if you spend your money on a hunt, hell I spend a ton on hunting, it's just that I choose to live a lifestyle that allows me to hunt year around in exchange I dont make much money. Since i'm always out in the mountains some place, I spend money year around on gas, on food, on camping, wear and tear on my boots and rice rocket pick-up. So, if I sat at home and drug my lazy ars out for a couple canned, paid hunts every hear it would cost less, especially because I'd be making a ton more money than I now am! That said, I would not trade my lifestyle for anything!
Never shot behind a fence or a zoo.
Anyhow, spend away, it is a fact that you MUST have the big bucks to hunt the big bucks in Sonora, therefore it aint fair, I did not say it aint fun or it aint a challenge or it aint hunting, I said it aint fair (but what is these days) - just like it aint fair that guys in utah cant hunt their own state unless they have deeeep pockets. It aint fair, but it is what it is. .
I've never posted nore have I shot anything behind a fence. I also dont shoot in the park very much - i have said this a dozen times, I dont shoot much in the park, it's just not that great.
"I am saying is that it hardly amounts to fair chase if only guys who pay big bucks get to play. . ."
Your words. Fair Chase. Do you know what fair chase means? It ain't got nothing to do with the ecomonic situation that makes you think it's unfair that someone with money can hunt and you can't. I guess all Stone's are now no longer fair chase cause they are a hell of a lot more money for you Yanks to hunt than heading to Ol' Mexico for muleys. Granted I can buy an over the counter tag and hunt Stones every year, but that ain't fair either is it? Because not everyone has that opportunity right? So from now on we'll only call animals killed in OTC seasons where the whole world can come and hunt, Fair Chase?
As for my analogy, I'm sure you know the purests out there that think shooting in a Park is a cake walk. No different than you thinking Mexico is only for the high rollers.
Your words. Fair Chase. Do you know what fair chase means? It ain't got nothing to do with the ecomonic situation that makes you think it's unfair that someone with money can hunt and you can't. I guess all Stone's are now no longer fair chase cause they are a hell of a lot more money for you Yanks to hunt than heading to Ol' Mexico for muleys. Granted I can buy an over the counter tag and hunt Stones every year, but that ain't fair either is it? Because not everyone has that opportunity right? So from now on we'll only call animals killed in OTC seasons where the whole world can come and hunt, Fair Chase?
As for my analogy, I'm sure you know the purests out there that think shooting in a Park is a cake walk. No different than you thinking Mexico is only for the high rollers.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
LAST EDITED ON May-19-07 AT 10:59PM (MST)[p]Hey BC, Sonora Mexico mule deer is ONLY for the guys that can or will pay the big bucks. . . So what? I still dont get your point. Spend a way on a big hunt I dont really care. I also still dont know what youre talking about. . .
BC, I think your stuck on fair chase as it relates to Boone and Crockett - I'm talking about equality and fairness. . .
Every animal I've ever photographed is wild, free ranging and accessible by any human that can drag his or her butt up the mountain. . . There's no huge fee, the only limits are your ability to get out and do the work.
I still dont see your beef. I also still dont know what a $15000 mule deer hunt in Mexico has to do with me, photography, the U.S. or BC for that matter.
You lost me BC.
BC, I think your stuck on fair chase as it relates to Boone and Crockett - I'm talking about equality and fairness. . .
Every animal I've ever photographed is wild, free ranging and accessible by any human that can drag his or her butt up the mountain. . . There's no huge fee, the only limits are your ability to get out and do the work.
I still dont see your beef. I also still dont know what a $15000 mule deer hunt in Mexico has to do with me, photography, the U.S. or BC for that matter.
You lost me BC.
D
D13er
Guest
I went to GNP a few years ago and walked out on those wooden walkways and them damn goats sure wanted my peanuts. Coulda' got some good pictures with the right equipment. It just ain't fair that some people have expensive cameras.
JB
JB
B
bigblock455
Guest
I can buy OTC bull elk in colorado " when they allow it" and so can out of stateers. I personally do not see it being fair chase when you know for a fact that animals are being held in there. How many of us DIY hunters hunt public land and at times, you run up on some deer or elk and they haul arse and stop on private property where u cant shoot? Antlers isnt what makes hunting fun. Sure its great to harvest a mature animal, but i 99% of the time hunt to put meat on the table and to make some memories. If you can afford to do a fenced hunt and enjoy it, keep on doing it. No need to let others ruin your fun. We all have out own way of hunting, which ever gets your rocks off, go for it! Im a muzzleloader hunter only kind of person and even when i hunt rifle season, my muzzleloader is the rifle im using. Now is it more enjoyable to do it yourself type of hunting? Does it feel better when you take down a big deer with only the help and heart that you put in to it? Of course it is. I took my first ever big buck with a 50cal flintlock muzzleloader in late evening, after that smoke cleared and i seen him on the ground kicking, its felt like my heart grew to the size of a watermelon. Have fun with the way you hunt. Its not always about taking animals with huge antlers/horns. Do what you enjoy and dont let any others get you riled up.
He aint huge but he's my biggest deer so far. Nice 4x4.
He aint huge but he's my biggest deer so far. Nice 4x4.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
Yea, it's all about expensive camears. . . Now that's a good one. Lost of people see lots of things in GNP, and that's great, that's what its all about. I hear all kinds of storys about peopling see all kinds of things all the time.
The difference between me and anyone else is that I do it. . .
There are lots of rules in the park, (most of that area around that board walk is closed to access, makes it hard to get any shots let alone good one's.
Nature's rules often dictate more than any other. I'll bet those goats you saw had prime july/august coats too, did'nt they - LOL? I know I see lots of shots of goats in their sheeding hair, people are just knocking down my door to get a shot of a goat shedding his hide. . . same goes for he sheep. But, hay, it's all about the camera and, you know best D13r! You know best. . .
Piece - cheers, and good luck my friend. . .
The difference between me and anyone else is that I do it. . .
There are lots of rules in the park, (most of that area around that board walk is closed to access, makes it hard to get any shots let alone good one's.
Nature's rules often dictate more than any other. I'll bet those goats you saw had prime july/august coats too, did'nt they - LOL? I know I see lots of shots of goats in their sheeding hair, people are just knocking down my door to get a shot of a goat shedding his hide. . . same goes for he sheep. But, hay, it's all about the camera and, you know best D13r! You know best. . .
Piece - cheers, and good luck my friend. . .
LAST EDITED ON May-20-07 AT 10:20AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-20-07 AT 10:17?AM (MST)
The point is just because you don't think it's fair don't make it so. When you use the words FAIR CHASE on a hunting site, of course we are going to be thinking of the B&C statement. As for your twisted version, give it a break. So what about them Stones. Is that fair that some one who wants to go for his Grand Slam has to have extremely deep pockets or just is lucky enough to live in a province where he can kill 3 quarters of the slam all DIY? It just ain't fair that BC has the rules that it does. Why are the only Yanks that get to hunt BC are the Wealthy ones? That just ain't fair. I'm looking forward to your new and improved record book. The Tfinal Fair book of Fair Chase. LOL!
So T, one other question, where were those big rams you and Hoofs just photographed eh? Couldn't be in a national park eh? Yea those Jasper rams are really really tuff to get up close and personal on. Geeze, I only could get my 8 yr old daughter 15 yards from them. Sure wished I could have got closer.
But, hey I must be wrong. You rarely ever shoot in parks. You have the highest ethics. And I betcha you'd never stage an ATL photo either. LOL!
The point is just because you don't think it's fair don't make it so. When you use the words FAIR CHASE on a hunting site, of course we are going to be thinking of the B&C statement. As for your twisted version, give it a break. So what about them Stones. Is that fair that some one who wants to go for his Grand Slam has to have extremely deep pockets or just is lucky enough to live in a province where he can kill 3 quarters of the slam all DIY? It just ain't fair that BC has the rules that it does. Why are the only Yanks that get to hunt BC are the Wealthy ones? That just ain't fair. I'm looking forward to your new and improved record book. The Tfinal Fair book of Fair Chase. LOL!
So T, one other question, where were those big rams you and Hoofs just photographed eh? Couldn't be in a national park eh? Yea those Jasper rams are really really tuff to get up close and personal on. Geeze, I only could get my 8 yr old daughter 15 yards from them. Sure wished I could have got closer.
But, hey I must be wrong. You rarely ever shoot in parks. You have the highest ethics. And I betcha you'd never stage an ATL photo either. LOL!
L
Lowlandmulies
Guest
LAST EDITED ON May-20-07 AT 02:03PM (MST)[p]T
So you think everything you do is correct! Misleading people to think all the game you photograph is free roaming on public land. Yea, I understand parks are free roaming and they are public land, but those animals don't get harassed and shot at on a daily basis. Hell I've even seen them eat out of peoples hands? Doesn't make for a great photo, but I'm sure you can get them without the people in the shot.
I think the point people are trying to make to you is don't put down other hunters regardless of how you feel. Ask jim Zumbo what that will do to a guys carrier.
Hunting Mexico is like hunting anywhere else! You can hunt unguided, semi guided, and fully guided, depending on what you are willing to spend. No different then colorado, texas, or even here in Idaho for that matter. Most people go fully guided because they don't know the ranch they are hunting, or they have never been to Mexico and don't know what to expect. Oh yea and there is nothing wrong with having someone with you who is fluent in spanish and knows the locals.
Next year I'm going to Mexico to hunt mule deer, couse and white tail on a self guided hunt. The only cost that I incur are the cost of the hunting permits. Which, in case were wondering, amounts to about $700.00.
One thing is a given and that is that I have a better chance at seeing the buck of my dreams in Mexico then anywhere here in the 48 states. So is there something wrong with that?
So the point is.... don't crap on other hunters! People are really getting sick of people bashing other people. Yea, I know it's free speech, but there is a time and a place for it and it's not here!
Respectfully
Steve Alderman
So you think everything you do is correct! Misleading people to think all the game you photograph is free roaming on public land. Yea, I understand parks are free roaming and they are public land, but those animals don't get harassed and shot at on a daily basis. Hell I've even seen them eat out of peoples hands? Doesn't make for a great photo, but I'm sure you can get them without the people in the shot.
I think the point people are trying to make to you is don't put down other hunters regardless of how you feel. Ask jim Zumbo what that will do to a guys carrier.
Hunting Mexico is like hunting anywhere else! You can hunt unguided, semi guided, and fully guided, depending on what you are willing to spend. No different then colorado, texas, or even here in Idaho for that matter. Most people go fully guided because they don't know the ranch they are hunting, or they have never been to Mexico and don't know what to expect. Oh yea and there is nothing wrong with having someone with you who is fluent in spanish and knows the locals.
Next year I'm going to Mexico to hunt mule deer, couse and white tail on a self guided hunt. The only cost that I incur are the cost of the hunting permits. Which, in case were wondering, amounts to about $700.00.
One thing is a given and that is that I have a better chance at seeing the buck of my dreams in Mexico then anywhere here in the 48 states. So is there something wrong with that?
So the point is.... don't crap on other hunters! People are really getting sick of people bashing other people. Yea, I know it's free speech, but there is a time and a place for it and it's not here!
Respectfully
Steve Alderman
T
TFinalshot
Guest
I guess I dont see what difference it makes high fence or not in mexico when only guys with deeeeep pockets and lots of time off can make it a hunt, you might as well get what you pay for ay?
High fence mule deer in mexico and the USA for that matter is what soon will seperate the hunters from the shooters. . . and the men from the boys. . .
As for Mexico, exept for ecological and biological reasones I could give a rats you know what about high fences in mexico because there's no fair chase in mexico anymore anyhow. . . it's all about putting up the cash. Mind you I did not say it was easy to hunt mexico or that there's a booner behind every bush, I know better, but I am saying is that it hardly amounts to fair chase if only guys who pay big bucks get to play. . .
High fence mule deer in mexico and the USA for that matter is what soon will seperate the hunters from the shooters. . . and the men from the boys. . .
As for Mexico, exept for ecological and biological reasones I could give a rats you know what about high fences in mexico because there's no fair chase in mexico anymore anyhow. . . it's all about putting up the cash. Mind you I did not say it was easy to hunt mexico or that there's a booner behind every bush, I know better, but I am saying is that it hardly amounts to fair chase if only guys who pay big bucks get to play. . .
Nice cut and paste job. You got anything new to say or are you just so stumped that postin' what you already said word or word is the only way to keep the thread going? Come on now T, I know you like debating, so lets hear something new and maybe perhaps mind blowing from ya. Please tell me how Stone sheep in BC is any different from muleys in mexico. Please tell the masses, we all what to hear the BS flow some more.
D
D13er
Guest
Lowlandmulies,
I wouldn't want to be in your shoes in mexico when the federalis show up on the ranch you are hunting and you have a gun and no mexican guide with you.
JB
I wouldn't want to be in your shoes in mexico when the federalis show up on the ranch you are hunting and you have a gun and no mexican guide with you.
JB
M
moneyman
Guest
>Lowlandmulies,
>
>I wouldn't want to be in
>your shoes in mexico when
>the federalis show up on
>the ranch you are hunting
>and you have a gun
>and no mexican guide with
>you.
>
>JB
I know of several ranches that offer self-guided hunts. They give you access and a place to stay, maybe some food. The rest is up to you.
>
>I wouldn't want to be in
>your shoes in mexico when
>the federalis show up on
>the ranch you are hunting
>and you have a gun
>and no mexican guide with
>you.
>
>JB
I know of several ranches that offer self-guided hunts. They give you access and a place to stay, maybe some food. The rest is up to you.
D
D13er
Guest
Moneyman,
uh huh, I know. I know guys that do it.
JB
uh huh, I know. I know guys that do it.
JB
L
Lowlandmulies
Guest
D13er
Would not be any different then this last year. We were on a self guided hunt down there and it went off like clock work. Just need to make sure all your paper work is in order. It doesn't hurt to speak spanish or have someone with you that does!
I have friends that own ranches in Mexico and they have had no problems. Knock on wood!
It doesn't hurt to hire a ranch hand to drive you around for a couple days. That is what we did last January. We do get help crossing the border that is the most crucial part. Usually the ranch owner or an outfitter.
Thanks for your concern. And yes, it is always in the back of my mind that something could go wrong, Even on a fully guided hunt things happen.
Steve
Would not be any different then this last year. We were on a self guided hunt down there and it went off like clock work. Just need to make sure all your paper work is in order. It doesn't hurt to speak spanish or have someone with you that does!
I have friends that own ranches in Mexico and they have had no problems. Knock on wood!
It doesn't hurt to hire a ranch hand to drive you around for a couple days. That is what we did last January. We do get help crossing the border that is the most crucial part. Usually the ranch owner or an outfitter.
Thanks for your concern. And yes, it is always in the back of my mind that something could go wrong, Even on a fully guided hunt things happen.
Steve
H
hoofsandhorns
Guest
>LAST EDITED ON May-20-07
>AT 10:20?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON May-20-07
>AT 10:17?AM (MST)
>
>The point is just because you
>don't think it's fair don't
>make it so. When you
>use the words FAIR CHASE
>on a hunting site, of
>course we are going to
>be thinking of the B&C
>statement. As for your twisted
>version, give it a break.
>So what about them Stones.
>Is that fair that some
>one who wants to go
>for his Grand Slam has
>to have extremely deep pockets
>or just is lucky enough
>to live in a province
>where he can kill 3
>quarters of the slam all
>DIY? It just ain't fair
>that BC has the rules
>that it does. Why are
>the only Yanks that get
>to hunt BC are the
>Wealthy ones? That just ain't
>fair. I'm looking forward to
>your new and improved record
>book. The Tfinal Fair book
>of Fair Chase. LOL!
>So T, one other question, where
>were those big rams you
>and Hoofs just photographed eh?
>Couldn't be in a national
>park eh? Yea those Jasper
>rams are really really tuff
>to get up close and
>personal on. Geeze, I only
>could get my 8 yr
>old daughter 15 yards from
>them. Sure wished I could
>have got closer. But,
>hey I must be wrong.
>You rarely ever shoot in
>parks. You have the highest
>ethics. And I betcha you'd
>never stage an ATL photo
>either. LOL!
I was looking through a few of the posts when I came across this one and just had to throw my two cents in. At first I didn't think I really had a dog in this fight and probably wouldn't have until my name came up. It seemed to me like it was being implied that if you get good sheep photos you probably got them in a park because it's so easy even a child could walk right up and get a picture. That and it sounds like there's something unethical about it. I'll be the first to admit most wildlife is generally more approachable in parks or preserves but so what. I for one don't go there to prove how stealthy I am. I'm there to see how good of a photo I can get. While it's true I take a lot of photographs in various parks, I also get a ton on both private and public lands and I've got plenty to show for it. As a matter of fact back a few years ago a friend and I owned and operated a video production company called Wild Reflections Video Productions. We produced six wildlife and hunting videos. One of my favorites called "Predators the Big Three" is about grizzlies, wolves and cougars and if you know anything about any of these they're not easily photographed or filmed in "or" out of a park. That video has some never before seen behavior footage of these three big predators and we shot most of it on private land within 20 minutes of my house. So just to set the record straight, I happen to know photographers who have gotten some awesome stuff by stalking their subjects outside of parks or preserves, including myself and including TFinal.
I took these documentary shots three days ago about 30 minutes from my house here in Southern Alberta. These aren't "Jasper Sheep" and "no" they're not in a "park or a zoo" and I still took all these shots with my 70-200. On top of it all some of the bigger rams in this bunch were shot not that long ago. They know all about being shot at.
>AT 10:20?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON May-20-07
>AT 10:17?AM (MST)
>
>The point is just because you
>don't think it's fair don't
>make it so. When you
>use the words FAIR CHASE
>on a hunting site, of
>course we are going to
>be thinking of the B&C
>statement. As for your twisted
>version, give it a break.
>So what about them Stones.
>Is that fair that some
>one who wants to go
>for his Grand Slam has
>to have extremely deep pockets
>or just is lucky enough
>to live in a province
>where he can kill 3
>quarters of the slam all
>DIY? It just ain't fair
>that BC has the rules
>that it does. Why are
>the only Yanks that get
>to hunt BC are the
>Wealthy ones? That just ain't
>fair. I'm looking forward to
>your new and improved record
>book. The Tfinal Fair book
>of Fair Chase. LOL!
>So T, one other question, where
>were those big rams you
>and Hoofs just photographed eh?
>Couldn't be in a national
>park eh? Yea those Jasper
>rams are really really tuff
>to get up close and
>personal on. Geeze, I only
>could get my 8 yr
>old daughter 15 yards from
>them. Sure wished I could
>have got closer.
But, >hey I must be wrong.
>You rarely ever shoot in
>parks. You have the highest
>ethics. And I betcha you'd
>never stage an ATL photo
>either. LOL!
I was looking through a few of the posts when I came across this one and just had to throw my two cents in. At first I didn't think I really had a dog in this fight and probably wouldn't have until my name came up. It seemed to me like it was being implied that if you get good sheep photos you probably got them in a park because it's so easy even a child could walk right up and get a picture. That and it sounds like there's something unethical about it. I'll be the first to admit most wildlife is generally more approachable in parks or preserves but so what. I for one don't go there to prove how stealthy I am. I'm there to see how good of a photo I can get. While it's true I take a lot of photographs in various parks, I also get a ton on both private and public lands and I've got plenty to show for it. As a matter of fact back a few years ago a friend and I owned and operated a video production company called Wild Reflections Video Productions. We produced six wildlife and hunting videos. One of my favorites called "Predators the Big Three" is about grizzlies, wolves and cougars and if you know anything about any of these they're not easily photographed or filmed in "or" out of a park. That video has some never before seen behavior footage of these three big predators and we shot most of it on private land within 20 minutes of my house. So just to set the record straight, I happen to know photographers who have gotten some awesome stuff by stalking their subjects outside of parks or preserves, including myself and including TFinal.
I took these documentary shots three days ago about 30 minutes from my house here in Southern Alberta. These aren't "Jasper Sheep" and "no" they're not in a "park or a zoo" and I still took all these shots with my 70-200. On top of it all some of the bigger rams in this bunch were shot not that long ago. They know all about being shot at.
LAST EDITED ON May-22-07 AT 00:01AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-21-07 AT 11:15?PM (MST)
Hoofs,
There's no doubt you and T take some of the best pics on this site. The fact is T makes comments that his ass can't cash and he thinks his ethics are higher than everyone else's. Matter of fact I'm really surprised I haven't got a PM from him yet about this post cause T has a habit of whinning as soon as somebody calls his BS. Hoofs, this post has nothing to do with your photography. You are as topnotch as they come. Never see you postin crap about no one. T on the other hand, well look at this thread for an example. He's just wrote off everyone who has ever hunted Ol' Mexico and told them their animals weren't killed under Fair Chase, all because he thinks if he can't afford it, it ain't fair. Meanwhile he shoots the best quality of gear and travels all over, bragging about the miles he puts on, to chase that elusive photo. I can't afford the stuff he shoots. I can get damn close to animals in and out of parks too, and yet I can't take that quality. Fact is, I think I probably could if I had the right tools. So it just Ain't Fair, that he can take the pics he can. Right? He doesn't even catch the tongue in cheek about the parks versus zoo versus wild comment. I'm surprised you didn't either. The point is saying you can't take pics inside a Park is about as stupid as saying that saying Ol' Mexico is not Fairchase. Get it now.
Hoofs,
There's no doubt you and T take some of the best pics on this site. The fact is T makes comments that his ass can't cash and he thinks his ethics are higher than everyone else's. Matter of fact I'm really surprised I haven't got a PM from him yet about this post cause T has a habit of whinning as soon as somebody calls his BS. Hoofs, this post has nothing to do with your photography. You are as topnotch as they come. Never see you postin crap about no one. T on the other hand, well look at this thread for an example. He's just wrote off everyone who has ever hunted Ol' Mexico and told them their animals weren't killed under Fair Chase, all because he thinks if he can't afford it, it ain't fair. Meanwhile he shoots the best quality of gear and travels all over, bragging about the miles he puts on, to chase that elusive photo. I can't afford the stuff he shoots. I can get damn close to animals in and out of parks too, and yet I can't take that quality. Fact is, I think I probably could if I had the right tools. So it just Ain't Fair, that he can take the pics he can. Right? He doesn't even catch the tongue in cheek about the parks versus zoo versus wild comment. I'm surprised you didn't either. The point is saying you can't take pics inside a Park is about as stupid as saying that saying Ol' Mexico is not Fairchase. Get it now.
BTW Hoofs,
Nice Sheep pics. I just took a whack of pics a couple of weeks back (which I posted here on MM) of non-park Calis, 30 rams in the bunch. The new #1 Cali in the World just was killed out of that band last fall. I wish I had the equipment to get better quality pics. I did manage to get quite close to them (20 yards) with my 10 year son and my 8 year old daughter right by my side.
Nice Sheep pics. I just took a whack of pics a couple of weeks back (which I posted here on MM) of non-park Calis, 30 rams in the bunch. The new #1 Cali in the World just was killed out of that band last fall. I wish I had the equipment to get better quality pics. I did manage to get quite close to them (20 yards) with my 10 year son and my 8 year old daughter right by my side.
P
proutdoors
Guest
All this talk about 'fair' cracks me up. Who is to say what is 'fair'? Tf, me, BCBOY, BESS? A fair is where you take your girlfiend trying to win a ribbon. I get tired of the 'money' BS. Why are some hell-bent on dividing hunters by 'class' and 'style'? If it is legal, it should NOT be condemned by fellow hunters. That only benefits the anti's. I personally have no desire to hunt 'behind' a fence, I also have no desire to kill a small buck/bull, but that doesn't mean I should be 'condemning' or belittling those who do. I guide, which is 100% legal, so what benefit is it to hunting to run that down? Answer, NONE. I hunt with a bow and don't even own a rifle, but I am NOT about to condemn rifle hunters. To each his own. I guess some folkls s#$t don't stink.
PRO
PRO
F
FAIRCHASEBEN
Guest
>I would say that at least
>80% of high fence hunts
>are fair chase!
I would say 0% are.
>80% of high fence hunts
>are fair chase!
I would say 0% are.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
LAST EDITED ON May-22-07 AT 04:07PM (MST)[p]for those that think this issue is a joke please read on.
the writing below was taken from an article my friend just published (today may 22, 2007). I agree with him 100%. And if you dont, please feel free to voice your opinion...
this is the basis for the NORTH AMERICAN MODEL OF WILDLIFE CONSERVATION. The forum is organized around a list of seven principles that lead to conservation success [in the USA] when ALL SEVEN are employed. The list is:
• Wildlife as Public Trust Resources
• Elimination of markets for Wildlife
• Allocation of Wildlife by Law
• Wildlife Can Only be killed for Legitimate Purpose
• Wildlife are Considered an International Resource
• Science is the Proper Tool for Discharge of Wildlife Policy
• Democracy of Hunting *
(* from a 2002 paper by Joanna Prukop Lackey & Ron Regan presented to the International Association of Fish And Wildlife Agencies)
The ‘Model' actually is old news for hunters active in leadership oriented conservation organizations such as the Montana Wildlife Federation or the National Wildlife Federation. I personally first encountered the concept in 1994 when Dr. Valerius Geist from the University of Calgary addressed the MWF annual meeting. Since that time, you can pretty much trace the Federation's position on any issue back to a root principle within the Model. Much credit for this continuity goes to Jim Posewitz of Orion – The Hunters' Institute for his efforts to refine the hunters' story and to remind us of what we have wrought.
We in the USA have been actively engaged in inventing and operating the Model – at least since Teddy Roosevelt started the Boone & Crockett Club in 1887 – but the Canadians seem to be the ones to draw the Big Picture and how to explain it."
This from Ron Moody, you can read the entire article posted in the genneral hunting forum titled the future of hunting.
the writing below was taken from an article my friend just published (today may 22, 2007). I agree with him 100%. And if you dont, please feel free to voice your opinion...
this is the basis for the NORTH AMERICAN MODEL OF WILDLIFE CONSERVATION. The forum is organized around a list of seven principles that lead to conservation success [in the USA] when ALL SEVEN are employed. The list is:
• Wildlife as Public Trust Resources
• Elimination of markets for Wildlife
• Allocation of Wildlife by Law
• Wildlife Can Only be killed for Legitimate Purpose
• Wildlife are Considered an International Resource
• Science is the Proper Tool for Discharge of Wildlife Policy
• Democracy of Hunting *
(* from a 2002 paper by Joanna Prukop Lackey & Ron Regan presented to the International Association of Fish And Wildlife Agencies)
The ‘Model' actually is old news for hunters active in leadership oriented conservation organizations such as the Montana Wildlife Federation or the National Wildlife Federation. I personally first encountered the concept in 1994 when Dr. Valerius Geist from the University of Calgary addressed the MWF annual meeting. Since that time, you can pretty much trace the Federation's position on any issue back to a root principle within the Model. Much credit for this continuity goes to Jim Posewitz of Orion – The Hunters' Institute for his efforts to refine the hunters' story and to remind us of what we have wrought.
We in the USA have been actively engaged in inventing and operating the Model – at least since Teddy Roosevelt started the Boone & Crockett Club in 1887 – but the Canadians seem to be the ones to draw the Big Picture and how to explain it."
This from Ron Moody, you can read the entire article posted in the genneral hunting forum titled the future of hunting.
D
D13er
Guest
LAST EDITED ON May-22-07 AT 04:08PM (MST) by TFinalshot (moderator)[p]
JB
JB
P
proutdoors
Guest
WOW, the power of being a moderator.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't the National Wildlife Federation boderline PETA mentally?
PRO
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't the National Wildlife Federation boderline PETA mentally?
PRO
D
D13er
Guest
Tfinal,
What does that propaganda have to do with your inability to accept the fact that hunting in Mexico is fair chase and fair even if you can't afford it??
JB
What does that propaganda have to do with your inability to accept the fact that hunting in Mexico is fair chase and fair even if you can't afford it??
JB
LAST EDITED ON May-22-07 AT 07:12PM (MST)[p]T,
Interesting that you are not a moderator of this forum and yet you are moderating. Hmmm, should talk to Founder about that cause it ain't suposed to work that way. At least the edit feature says you are the one that did it, even though the rest of us will never know what JB said will we?
As for you article that you posted up, What does that have to do with the topic of hunting in Mexico? The thread was about High Fences, yet you've gone and thrown out a blanket statement that all hunting in Mexico is not fair chase because it isn't fair that only the Rich can afford to hunt there? Hmmm, don't you see where that is putting fellow hunters down. Lowlandmulies told ya that he ain't rich and had to save long and hard for him to hunt there, and yet you throw him in your blanket statement that all hunts in Mexico are not fair chase. Now I'm not familiar with Mexican Wildlife Laws, but I'm assuming that the locals can hunt there, so does that mean that Mexicans are not hunting fair chase too? Thus the reason I take intrest in this as I am a Canadian, and guess what, the only Yanks that can hunt here are the Rich ones (or at least guys that have saved a lot more money than I do for hunting). You see your blanket statement about Fair Chase also applys to me. You are then saying I don't hunt fairchase, cause it ain't fair that you can't afford to hunt the same ground I hunt.
Sooo what are you hinting at, Manifest Destiny???? That every North American jurisdiction should be at your disposal to rape and pillage at will. If we opened the doors to nonresidents hunting here without requiring a guide, what would that do to our wildlife management? The same goes with Mexico. You must realize, we are INDEPENDANT COUNTRIES. If you want to hunt anywhere else on Earth, in any other country, do you think they will just let you waltz right in and kill everything you see, just because that would be FAIR???? What about what's fair for the locals? You can reflect on the whole AZ nonresident debate to see where that gets ya. Here in BC, we (the residents) just fought long and hard to cut back the allocations given out to the outfitters so that we (the people of BC) can have first dibs at OUR (the people of BC) wildlife. What does that mean to you Yanks? Well, the most obvious one is Stone Sheep allocations were cut, so, Supply and Demand, the price of a Stone Sheep hunt just got a lot higher. Guess what that means? Only the Rich Yanks are going to hunt Stones from now on. Tuff $hit eh? Meanwhile, the opportunity for the residents (the people of BC) is much better, and we can do it all DIY in the WILD of Super Natural BC. Definately NO FENCES HERE!!!! But.... in your mind, that's not fair. Even though you are not a BC taxpayer, you don't put your hard earned dollars back into our wildlife, you still think that isn't fair. So in Tfinal's fair book of Fairchase, there would be no BC entries. Do you see where I'm going with this, or are you going to play your little, ummm I don't see where I bashed anyone game and continue in your Ignorance is BLISS thought process?
Interesting that you are not a moderator of this forum and yet you are moderating. Hmmm, should talk to Founder about that cause it ain't suposed to work that way. At least the edit feature says you are the one that did it, even though the rest of us will never know what JB said will we?
As for you article that you posted up, What does that have to do with the topic of hunting in Mexico? The thread was about High Fences, yet you've gone and thrown out a blanket statement that all hunting in Mexico is not fair chase because it isn't fair that only the Rich can afford to hunt there? Hmmm, don't you see where that is putting fellow hunters down. Lowlandmulies told ya that he ain't rich and had to save long and hard for him to hunt there, and yet you throw him in your blanket statement that all hunts in Mexico are not fair chase. Now I'm not familiar with Mexican Wildlife Laws, but I'm assuming that the locals can hunt there, so does that mean that Mexicans are not hunting fair chase too? Thus the reason I take intrest in this as I am a Canadian, and guess what, the only Yanks that can hunt here are the Rich ones (or at least guys that have saved a lot more money than I do for hunting). You see your blanket statement about Fair Chase also applys to me. You are then saying I don't hunt fairchase, cause it ain't fair that you can't afford to hunt the same ground I hunt.
Sooo what are you hinting at, Manifest Destiny???? That every North American jurisdiction should be at your disposal to rape and pillage at will. If we opened the doors to nonresidents hunting here without requiring a guide, what would that do to our wildlife management? The same goes with Mexico. You must realize, we are INDEPENDANT COUNTRIES. If you want to hunt anywhere else on Earth, in any other country, do you think they will just let you waltz right in and kill everything you see, just because that would be FAIR???? What about what's fair for the locals? You can reflect on the whole AZ nonresident debate to see where that gets ya. Here in BC, we (the residents) just fought long and hard to cut back the allocations given out to the outfitters so that we (the people of BC) can have first dibs at OUR (the people of BC) wildlife. What does that mean to you Yanks? Well, the most obvious one is Stone Sheep allocations were cut, so, Supply and Demand, the price of a Stone Sheep hunt just got a lot higher. Guess what that means? Only the Rich Yanks are going to hunt Stones from now on. Tuff $hit eh? Meanwhile, the opportunity for the residents (the people of BC) is much better, and we can do it all DIY in the WILD of Super Natural BC. Definately NO FENCES HERE!!!! But.... in your mind, that's not fair. Even though you are not a BC taxpayer, you don't put your hard earned dollars back into our wildlife, you still think that isn't fair. So in Tfinal's fair book of Fairchase, there would be no BC entries. Do you see where I'm going with this, or are you going to play your little, ummm I don't see where I bashed anyone game and continue in your Ignorance is BLISS thought process?
D
D13er
Guest
BC,
The mexicans can hunt, they just can't have a gun to hunt with.
JB
The mexicans can hunt, they just can't have a gun to hunt with.
JB
T
TFinalshot
Guest
If you cant see how this realates to our discussion than I doubt we ever will agree . . . It's from VG too. . .
• Wildlife as Public Trust Resources
• Elimination of markets for Wildlife
• Allocation of Wildlife by Law
• Wildlife Can Only be killed for Legitimate Purpose
• Wildlife are Considered an International Resource
• Science is the Proper Tool for Discharge of Wildlife Policy
• Wildlife as Public Trust Resources
• Elimination of markets for Wildlife
• Allocation of Wildlife by Law
• Wildlife Can Only be killed for Legitimate Purpose
• Wildlife are Considered an International Resource
• Science is the Proper Tool for Discharge of Wildlife Policy
T
TFinalshot
Guest
BC, I've said all along it aint fair, but I also said there's a lot that aint fair. . . I dont think it's fair, and i'll make a prediction, before too long fiar chase will incorperate politics into it's definition - just wait, its coming! Just like dimonds and coffee, there will be a political correctness to fair chase. . .
L
Lowlandmulies
Guest
Deerlove
I'm really into giving a animal credit for what he grew. A gross score if you may. Also, the BC club does not recognize a desert mule deer as a different species, that also had something to do with it. It is the largest desert mule deer ever harvest with a muzzleloader and it needs to get credit for it. Not just mingled in with a bunch of other awesome deer. I had know idea what I had shot I just knew it was the biggest buck that I have had in front of me and my muzzleloader.
Thanks for the complement. The trip was awesome! I hope all of you can experience a trip like this one time in your hunting carrier.
Best Regards
Steve
I'm really into giving a animal credit for what he grew. A gross score if you may. Also, the BC club does not recognize a desert mule deer as a different species, that also had something to do with it. It is the largest desert mule deer ever harvest with a muzzleloader and it needs to get credit for it. Not just mingled in with a bunch of other awesome deer. I had know idea what I had shot I just knew it was the biggest buck that I have had in front of me and my muzzleloader.
Thanks for the complement. The trip was awesome! I hope all of you can experience a trip like this one time in your hunting carrier.
Best Regards
Steve
Steve,
Got the issue in the mail today. Great story and great buck!!!! That's awesome that you took both those bucks with your smokepole. One of these days I'm gonna have to try hunting with one. Congrats on a Buck of a Lifetime. Hope you are able to find a few more in your lifetime too, just because Life ain't fair sometimes.
Got the issue in the mail today. Great story and great buck!!!! That's awesome that you took both those bucks with your smokepole. One of these days I'm gonna have to try hunting with one. Congrats on a Buck of a Lifetime. Hope you are able to find a few more in your lifetime too, just because Life ain't fair sometimes.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
Coming from you bc I now have bright future in posting on MM. . . LOL You da man BC, you da man. . . funny how you like to pick and choose through my posts but miss the point every time. . .
Funny how you never answered one of my questions, not once eh? So what is the difference between BC and Mexico? When Yanks have to pay to play if they want to hunt here, what's the difference? Because you don't have what it takes to hunt here, is Canada the same in your mind? How does Hoofs feel about that since he is in the same boat as me, and you can't hunt up here without the CASH$$$ but we can hunt pretty much for free. Are our animals taken in 'Fairchase'? Will they meet the guidelines of Tfinals fair book of fairchase? Common T, enquiring minds want to know. And you still haven't answered the question about where those sheep were either? What, are you ashamed that you shoot parks? Did I hit a soft spot there?
T
TFinalshot
Guest
Yawn. . .
![Resized_20201202_074917[17299] copy.jpg](/xf/data/xfmg/thumbnail/2/2365-e38d85713d6a590adbea278cb5f0de7b.jpg?1610494219)