antler/skull find

H

hobbes

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I found this while scouting on Sunday in a very thick area at 10,000 ft. I almost stepped on it or I would have never seen it. There were a couple other scattered bones that I saw, femur and ?. I wouldn't suspect winter kill since I found it above the elevation he should have been at during that time, but I'm very new to the mountains, so I'm just guessing.

The bricks give an indication of size. He isn't anything special by Mule Deer standards, but I would be happy to slip an arrow through one that size this fall for my first mule deer. I did spot one on the hoof that was very similar close by and another that was too far to judge with my binocs. I do however hope to locate someting larger to at least try for. I'll have the spotting scope next time.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-07 AT 00:39AM (MST)[p]Great buck! Not to be a buzzkill or get preachy but if you happened to find that in NM you might want to call the local game warden and (beg forgiveness) work out some kind of paperwork because it's illegal to pick up heads here. (too many Shitheads poaching now-picking up later). I realize most states aren't like that but I thought I'd post a reminder for folks that weren't aware. (Sheds, of course, ARE legal to pick up in NM)

We're generally pretty reasonable with a guy that finds an obviously long dead head- but we need to be able to scrutinize the situation and technically they are to be left where they lay til we have a chance to do that (at least over the phone). If we find out about a head possessed after the fact, we're surely going to take the rack, and maybe issue a ticket depending on the circumstances.

Just FYI- Nice Buck.( I wont say how but I can tell with a glance that that buck is legetimate, If someone whould have brought it to me-after asking me if they could retrieve it- I'd defenitely let them keep it)

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Utard fish and chips would give you a ticket for picking up that lion killed buck.
 
I second the posts above, be carefull picking up those skulls and don't get caught!! As someone else found out, it's even illegal to pick up a skull from another state and bring it into Utah....total BS i say!!!

Thanks to a few folks a while back, poaching bucks in the winter, chaining them to trees and going back in the spring to say "Gee, look what i found" is what has put this law into place for the rest of us "honest folks".

But having said that....nice find, i have a few just like it!!
 
I thought of that very thing when I found it, but having never known what the regs about this very thing say, being so far back away from the road and knowing that it was incredibly unlikely that I could get a warden to wander back to the location to check out the scene (I'm not sure I'll even be back in the area or could have found it again for that matter), I chose to carry it out. I expected the rodent chewed rack and deteriorated skull to be a pretty clear indication that it was killed by something other than myself. I also know ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I have however searched the regs here and can not find the answer as to weather it should have been left in the woods. I will be making a phone call to DOW though.
 
I found a huge 6x6 bull in the unit 6 from the Dome fire. I called the G&F , and they said they needed it and they would let me know if I could keep it.I didn't hear anything back and tried to contact the officer I turned it over to. Time passed by and one day while up at Chama , I was visiting with an old buddy and told him the story and how I tried to get it. He said that they had auctioned off a nice 6x6 that was killed in some fire at the state taxidermy show in Carlsbad that spring. I figured it was the bull I'd found, and just chalked it up as that it was states property. It is stated in the big game proclamation. The only thing I was upset about is how no one would communicate it to me. Later on I met up with the officer I had turned it over to at my taxidermist and asked him what ever happened to it. He acted as if he had absolutley no idea what I was talking about.My taxidermists said he was a bit arrogent and they wouldn't be surprised if he had kept it ....Who knows...Another time while bow hunting in 16B we found a heavy 22 inch 3x3 , I mean this buck had baseball bats sticking out of his head. Well the G&F came into our camp as we had a 1 bull and 1 cow(my first archery elk) , checked licenses, drank some water and snacked on some jerky and visited with us a while. I showed them the skull as it was very impressive, although not wide or tall was just thicker than all get out. They commented on how he was an old old buck but a great find, and how more and more deer were coming back. They said I could keep it as long as my intentions for it was to stay with me....
 
First of all, I'm sorry if I've hijacked this post- I really just wanted to FYI, but....

It's a very hard and complex law to enforce but, all things concidered, I'm happy that the law's in place. There were a HUGE number of bucks and bulls being "found" in NM, and it had turned into a loophole that allowed poachers to run rampant (although it had gone on for years)

I've had lots of guys bring me heads before I've had a chance to look the scene over, and honestly there's a lot we can tell about an animals death from even an old pile of bones. I've had guys bring me elk heads in the Gila that had obviously been skinned to the antlers to make them appear older. I've had the same guy throw a tyrade when I wouldn't let him keep it.

I can't speak for the warden who took that head from you and won't even say he was wrong to do it. Trophy class animals put us in a real bind, and we have to answer to the rest of the state as to why it (as property of the state) wasn't sold for fair market value- and stand the risk of being accused of wrong doing by letting you take it. Should you have gotten first chance to buy it? Maybe. Maybe he didn't get a chance to know enough about it to be comfortable with that. I keep most of my heads for at least a few months before "giving" them back because I've been burned by finding out later they were dirty.
Should he have given you a shot at another bull, Maybe. There are lots of ways he could have dealt with it I guess and picking one aint easy. I'll let you in on a little secret- maybe you know you well enough to know your a great honest guy, but most of the dirtbags we deal with don't have a secret mark that lets us know they're dirty and it's not always easy to tell the diference.

A more tragic story is. "I poached this huge 6x6 up on the Dome burn. I told the Game Warden the fire killed it and he let me keep it" An even worse story... "Wow, that's Awesome, lets go do it again"

The guys in your camp should have charge a few bucks and given you a receipt for that buck. Otherwise it's still illegal to this day- and their being TOO nice put everyone in a jackpot too.

Anyway, I hate hearing of stories where someone gets a bad taste for the Game and Fish, two sides to every one though.

Hope that little insight softens it some, maybe next time you'll get the story " I was hunting in unit such-and-such, and the Warden pulled into our camp and asked us if we wanted to buy this great bull elk they just seized"



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"and we have to answer to the rest of the state as to why it (as property of the state) wasn't sold for fair market value"

Just wondering what fair market value is for a deer or elk skull?






It's Bush's fault!!!
 
hobbes, did I mention Nice Buck! (Sorry for hijacking your post.)

IF I sell a found head it's usually from $3-$10 bucks. $10-$20 if it's a nice buck (when I'm just trying to let the guy keep it, I have to charge something and try to make it easy on them)For racks that I keep and/or seize I usually have the hornbuyers bid on them in bulk, and get market value similar to the by-the-pound you can get for sheds. I have folks on a list interested in buying heads and I'll try and spread the nice ones (that I seize) around my community.

When you get into a real trophy quality rack that I know is legitimate pick up that I want to let the "finder" keep I'll charge the guy maybe $100-$300 or something WELL BELOW the market value. Some of the real pigs will get auctioned off and, as you know, can bring in many thousands of dollars.


That's how I do it- others will be a lot more by the book which isn't wrong either. I like to encourage folk to do the right thing and come to me with a found head- so I think there should be some incentive to do so.
If I didn't address the implication before, NO, we never keep them for ourselves.

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Tmbrlinewarden

Let me start by saying thanks for making me aware of a potential issue I may have run into some day. I have never found a skull with antlers, but I have found a few sheds while hunting or scouting. I am not a New Mexico resident, nor have I hunted there, but if NM has the law, then my neighboring state probably has something like it. I will do some research.

I have never really thought about this issue, but I would have to side with you that under the current circumstances the law is probably a good one. With that said, a few things you noted do not seem quite right.

If a guy or gal is honest enought to bring you a skull to perform an anlysis on and you can definitively determine that the animal died of nature caused issues, why should the finder have to then pay the (you)state for the find? No tree was killed, no dirt was disturbed, in short, the cost to the state was zero. You may say the the cost of managing the animal prior to death was a cost, but we have already paid for that service with license fees and the tax on purchasing supplies and equipment. If the skull was not found, no dollars would be collected. The cost to the finder was time, effort, gas, etc. Kind of like double taxation.

It ercks me that the state charges someone for the work they have done. If sheds are ok to possess and can be later sold, what is the difference of a skull from a cleary nature caused death?

If the issue is that the finder could turn around and sell it for a profit then maybe the G&F should require all skulls to be certified before they can be sold and charge the finder a nominal fee to certify the skull. (ie, your time was taken and certification materials were used) Pochers could not legally sell a non-certified skull so the "find" law would remain just as effective as it is today. As stupid as some people are you would probably catch more pochers trying to pass off that obviously skinned skull as a natural caused death. Heeeere's your sign.

Then there is the matter of the amounts charged for the skulls. What happens to the dollars collected from honest hunters that are lucky enought to be the first to locate these gems in the woods? Does the money go to the Game and Fish to improve our resource or does it simply end up in the general fund to be used for any purpose? I know each state may be different, but what happens to the dollars in NM?

I have recently started hunting as a nonresident and tried very hard to understand the laws of the new state I am hunting in. In doing so, I have spoken to several wardens and this has given me a very positive perspective of the job you do and an appreciation of your work. When I was in my teens, I witnessed a very bad situation that I firmly believe a warden stepped way out of bounds on. He certainly had the right to do what he did, but in my opinion, the greatest wrong doing that day was done by him. That single experince left a pretty bad impression on me. My recent first hand experince with the CDOW and seeing your participation on this site has allowed me to see a different side of game warrdens. I certainly appreciate your participation on this site as a warrden and as an inividual.

Your thoughts?
264X300
 
I like 264's thoughts on this and agree. Why should we have to pay to keep a skull but not sheds? Just because it has a head attached? Kind of seems ironic. If your gonna charge for keeping skulls, charge to keep sheds, as we all know, there are many people who harass wildlife until they drop their antlers. What kind of damage does that cause?






It's Bush's fault!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-07 AT 03:31PM (MST)[p]Yea I guess I wasn't real clear on that issue becasue I was trying to hit and run all the questions without totally hijacking the post. too late. Hobbes, I appologize again, did I mention nice buck?

NM has wording in it's constitution called the anti-donation clause and the gist of it is (after having been chewed on for many years by many legal minds) we cannot give away state property to anyone for any reason. The skull one see's laying in the dirt in the woods (unlike the shed antler) is concidered a piece/part of a game animal and is property of the State of New Mexico until it is taken via a legal hunting harvest or sold to someone. I understand that doesn't sit well with many, and we have much bigger and far reaching issues with the "anti-donation clause" beyond a few dead deer skulls.

We charge money for them because we absolutely have to or WE can get in trouble. We have to work within certain sideboards with what we sell these things for as well. I guess the sad hard truth is that a dead deer rack (in NM) should be treated like anything else one may find that doesn't belong to them. Calling the warden, and working out arraingments with them to retrieve it or bringing the warden back in, are something a hunter might CHOOSE to do in the hopes of being able to purchase that rack before the next guy does. Having said that, there are no absolute garauntees that would be the case. I could show up there and find a good slug with my metal detector and the thing becomes evidence for the next two years.

The vasty majority of NM wardens work hard to make sure hunters remain motivated to continue staying within the law in dealing with found heads by trying to facilitate that a legitimate finder is allowed to take the thing home.

As to your argument that sheds should be treated the same way. Be careful what you wish for. I see that in the works for many western states as many states are looking for ways to disperse the cost of resource management over a wider group of folks than just the consumptive user (hunters/anglers). That and the increasing number of shed crazy folk (and the impact they have by just being in the woods that time of year on fawning and calving grounds) has got many states looking at shed hunting licenses.

Also NMDGF is entirely independant form the General fund, so the money goes back into managing wildlife.

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Warden, I have a question. I have heard on a few different ocassions of someone out hunting, finding a skull of the species they were hunting, and using their tag on the skull. From what I read in the proc. this is not legal, is it? It seems someone could just poach their animal a few weeks before the hunt, then tag it once the hunt is on.
 
How do you deal with an animal that has been shot during season, yet has not been recovered, but was then found months later? Do you still give the person a chance to buy it? Or is it kept as evidence no matter what?




It's Bush's fault!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-25-07 AT 03:47PM (MST)[p]NMTAXI-

Yea that actually happens a lot. A guy finds ahead, doesn't tag out so he just tags the head and goes home.

We've had a lot of discussions on that and I think you'll find a lot of descretionary difference in officers opinions on whether that would be OK. Although your tag doesn't say an LIVING forked antler deer, once the deer is dead and laying there it goes under this specific "head found in the field law"- so the answer is no, it's not legal.

I busted a guy from IN who did just that, because one of his guides had found the head and called me and took me in there and did everything right, and when we got there the (IN)guy had already gone in and took it on his way back to the airport. He had been told in no uncertain terms that was not OK by his outfitter, and that the finder wanted first crack. (The guy had told everyone in IN that he'd killed the bull, by the way)

If someone was to call me and ask if they could tag a found skull, I'd tell them "well, why don't I just sell it to you for 5 bucks and give you a receipt"

The next question about wounding loss refound- I wont even go there, very complex situations handled case by case.....


Again, alot of these laws put hunters/wardens in some wierd situations. We try to operate with justice and honor and fairness in mind, but we do that from a different persective than the hunter standing next to us, and he's not always happy with our decisions.


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Interesting topic.....
Warden, would the $5 still apply if it were a 380" bull or 190" muley?
-Raptor
 
It's likely you'd have to pay more- An animal like that is not something that gets nailed on the barn. It gets noticed and it gets talked about and the discussion often turns to why the game and fish would sell it for such a small price (goes back to the can't please em all sydrome of anything related to what we do)

IF I determine beyond a doubt that it's a legitimate lion kill or what ever I will make efforts to let the "finder" keep a hold of it including selling it to him for far less than I might get on the open market, but also keep in mind there is a far greater chance that an animal of that size laying dead was poached- and I could get a call in 2 months saying "I know who killed that big bull up on Secret Mesa" And my legal case is stronger if I still have the head in my (the Departments) possession. If you're willing to wait for a while you may still get it. It may get auctioned with the decision being made over my head. ???????

ALSO just to reiterate, other wardens may have a slightly different way that they handle these things, but your best and only chance of legally owning the thing is always to get with your warden and try to help him work through it

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Thanks for the reply Warden. Sometimes things make a little more since if you talk them out. Good to know that the dollars acquired go back into the wildlife fund.

It is sad though that the actions of the few adversly affect the many. Even worse is the few could care less.

264X300
 
By the way Hobbs, GREAT find!! I have what I consider a nice deer on my wall and your's is a heck of a lot better.

I also need to say thanks, cause this thread may keep my rear out of unexpected trouble some day. I will need to check into the Colorado and Arizona law since I hunt in both states. The Arizona area I hunt deer in holds several cats so I could run across a lion kill skull.

Thanks again
264X300
 
It is also illegal to pickup skulls with antlers attached in Wyoming, for the same reasons as explain earlier.

If you notify the warden prior to picking it up, they may let you keep it as well. I had a friend call me one time because he had found a big horn ram skull and he wanted to keep it. I looked up the number for the local warden and he called him. The warden let him keep it after he investigated the site.

Better safe then sorry.
 
A real easy solution to all these problems is to leave the antlers alone. Its pretty sad really that "hunting" has turned into an all out war on antlers. By placing such a high emphasis on "finding" lion kill etc., we feed the poachers need and desire to create "lion kill."

The funniest thing - all of these issues are created by hunters and finders egos. This is why pics of finds can't be kept secret, they show up on here or in some other publication. Everyone wants to show of their find (or say they killed it like the IN guy - who didn't even find his bull). If it were truly just about what you "found" and not what you "have" then a few photos in the woods would suffice and you could not worry about doing anything wrong. Unless I guess the warden gets on here and says its illegal to take photos of a dead deer in the woods - which wouldn;'t surprise me anymore.

Just my .02. If I ever did find one big enough to even think about "wanting" I don't know if I could just leave it. But, I sure as heck wouldn't touch it without a fish cops permission.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-07 AT 10:17AM (MST)[p]Well if it makes you feel better, I have discussed with the DOW and they would have preferred I left it as found so they could have looked the scene over, but they never told me where the regs state that and I can't find it.

Also, I did not intend to show it to say "hey look what I have", but simply showed a picture because I thought everyone here was a Muley nut and liked photos of muley head gear. Instead, in a roundabout way, I'm accused of looking for recognition. Hell, being new to the west and mule deer, I was just exited to have found the thing. I'm guessing that you have a much easier time packing animals out of the woods, since the antlers are left where he drops and your bringing meat out only.

Another thing, I'm not involved in any "all out war on antlers" and was not in any way on an antler hunt. I was actually wishing I had never wandered off into the area I was in because of the blowdowns I was navigating and purely stumbled onto the rack after nearly stepping on it.

Obviously I made a poor choice by bringing it out of the woods.
 
I have a question? With everybody picking up sheds & skulls how will it afect the other animals that would have chewed them for the calcium & other vitimins? now that, that source is gone?
 
Hobbes - I wasn't trying to single you out at all. I was just trying to talk about a general trend. I post my pics on here. If you've got it - share it. I guess my thought is sometimes wouldn't a pic from the woods sooth the masses. But, not really - its a need to have. But, my point is nobody knows about my grandfathers lion kills - because he doesn't share them. Heck, nobody knows anything about the huge bucks on his wall - because he doesn't share them. So, he is pretty much left alone. Kind of refreshing.

I think you found a great skull. End of story. If you didn't know not to pick it up - -- - what do you do?

I remember picking up skulls in Utah in the 80's. But, I know not to now.
 
Might have sounded a little harsh there. So to clarify, I really do appreciate the constructive comments on what the proper way to deal with this would have been. Thank you for those comments, but I do take offense to the comments that appear to put me in the class with a poacher. Maybe they wern't directed towards me.
 
Until the bone craze includes picking up all the bone, I am sure that there are enough bones left behind for the critters.

LOL at your post though.
 
New meaning to "A picture says a thousand words" wouldn't you say.

I'm with you Hobbes, I'd have picked up your head set and brought it home too. Something to show for my walk in the woods.

Because of all these posts, I now know that depending on where I am, that may not be such a good idea.

264X300
 
We must have been typing at the same time. I understand your point. I just took it too personal. No harm done.
 
Timberline,

I'd just like to say that saw you wondering whether you had worn out your welcome on another thread, but I certainly appreciate your willingness to share your insights about these things.

And not to beat a dead horse, but I'm curious about one more scenario, and I think I know the answer already, but I'd like to be certain. If you were to fatally wound an animal during the season, but then didn't actually find it until after the season, what is the NM protocol?
 
tbsh:

Can you tell me when the Utah law went into effect?

Back during my college days in the mid eighties I picked up a couple of skulls in the Deep Creek range that I held onto for years, as they were both better than anything I've ever harvested.

I finally got little money and had them restored and shoulder mounted about two years ago. I still enjoy looking at them just about every day as they hang in my stairwell. I realize there's probably a statute of limitations on these things, but now I'm wondering if I broke a law...
 
That was a cool find, hobbes. If I had found that skull, I wouldn't have let it lie--depending on the state I would have picked it up and/or contacted G&F if required...

Thanks for sharing.
 
To add some info to the discussion.

I had spoken with the CO DOW about the rack because I could not find anything in the regs regarding antler/skull finds. The employee on the phone had to check, becuase they did not know the answer. They called me back and said the warden had said they wanted/preferred finds to be reported. They reasoned that there could be an ongoing investigation and the find could be evidence. They didn't however tell me if it was listed in the regs and I failed to ask, so I was planning to make an additional phone call to find.

Well, I had also emailed the question on the CO DOW web site and just now noticed the response that was sent to me a few days ago. The following response was sent. I have removed the officers name.

"Thank you for taking time to send us your email question. At this time there are no regulations that would prohibit you from possessing those antlers.

I hope this information was helpful. Please do not hesitate to contact us again if you have additional questions."


That makes me feel much better about bringing it home!
 
Nice find.

Good heads up comming from some of these folks too....I once knew a guy that was faces with 3 felonies for picking up a dead head. Friggin felonies!!!!!! After tens of thousands of dollars later, a lot of time in court and a lot of gray hairs, it was thrown out. Be careful.

Is that ethical?
 
I think it was in the either the late 90s or early 2000's. I don't think it has been in effect that long. Some of the vids from the early 80s show people finding and I assume keeping lion kills in Utah. I really don't know though. '

I wouldn't be worried about anything found in the 80's.

Anyone have any more knowledge?
 

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