antler point restriction

[deserteagle500]

would there be any benefit of an anlter point restrcition, say only 3-point or better on mule deer, for utah? i talked to a friend that said there would be an increase in the number of poached animals and that it would be counter productive.

i heard that in colorado there is a 4 point or better rule on elk and heard great things about the elk quality and quantity.


what are your thoughts?

beat this

 

[Pre64]

If you want big critters you need to go the other way. General season two point or smaller. Or, spike only for elk. Limited entry draw for general antlered. Works great in Idaho.

 

[deserteagle500]

i don't know if bigger deer would be the goal, maybe just more deer. i think if just after a few years of the restricition on points that the little bucks would have a chance to grow.????




beat this

 

[nochawk]

It was tried a few years back in Utah and it failed miserably.. I dont think they will try it again.

 

[ricecanyon]

I don't know if point restrictions would help with mule deer in Utah. However, I sure like the restrictions for elk in the area I hunted in Colorado last year. It sure saved me from pulling the trigger too quick on something small.

Maybe your friend that said it would lead to more poaching is just telling you what he would do if he couldn't shoot a little guy.

 

[deserteagle500]

nochawk

can you give examples of what went on?


beat this

 

[swbuckmaster]

Why not make it spike only or spike by two and a draw for four point or better? That way I can have 20 deer points and never draw a tag! Rich people will be able to hunt 300 inch deer every year. And we can sit at our desks eating a "I feel so bloated I just want to sleep for three days" or a "tight pants special" while looking at posts of the new world record bucks taken every other day. This would get you big bucks! Written with Sarcasm all over the place!

Why would you want to kill off all of your older deer?
Why not limit the hunters period? This way you would have more deer.

Because having more big deer in Utah is not what the general public wants. They want to drive around in there big trucks and fourwheelers while wearing their wife beeter shirts, and mullets, and shoot out of there windows at anything that moves.

How do you fight that?

I know the answer!

 

[steelie]

The Oak Creek unit was 3 pt or better for a big chunk of the 80s, it didn't take too many years and there were a bunch of big, mature 2-points doing all the breeding, spreading there inferior (our perspective) genes.

 

[inline]

The state will never impose antler restrictions again, not because it wasn't effective, because to many people would cry about it. The guy who you hear talking about how he had to shoot a two point last year because that was the biggest deer he could find are the ones who dont understand the program. We all have seen it guys who have killed many deer in there life shooting small bucks just because they fill the need to harvest. If they would just let some of these deer walk, the next year they might see something they want to shoot. Its just like compounding interest if we let these 1st year bucks walk every year within a 2-3 years you will start to see a drastic difference in the quality of bucks and the number of bucks. And we might acctually start to have a rut in this state, instead of does settling for 1st and 2nd year bucks to breed them because that is all there is.

The only way we are going to help the deer herd grow stronger in numbers as well as genetics is by not shooting the small bucks.

 

[deserteagle500]

if there was a restriction then wouldn't there be less deer taken? and wouldn't the young deer have time to grow? and then wouldn't there come a point where we were able to harvest a mature buck?


beat this

 

[phishman01]

I think that was the theory. What actually happened was the guy that was happy to fill his tag with a 2 point had to continue to hunt until he found a legal 4 point, therefor killing all the bucks as young 4's. It was a poor management plan, and I'm guessing it won't return (at least in Utah).

 

[nochawk]

A couple things happened..

1. alot of shoot first and count points later..( some people were shooting 3 or 4 deer before finding a legal buck)(I heard it was worst on the Fishlake unit mostly)

2. wiped out a whole age class of deer for 2 or 3 years..( then we had a bad winter kill which took out the youngest and oldest bucks)

3. hunters had to hunt longer to find a legal deer ( this is where alot of the talk of UT only having spikes and forkhorn deer came from)

4. The game check stations mostly saw little bucks with few older bucks being checked.

I dont think it was just the point restriction as a combo of problems like the bad winters and the people wanting to find easy bucks ( like the weekend only hunters that only had 2 days to hunt, and wanted to get there buck).

IMO if all you are seeing is small bucks running with the doe's you need to go higher in elevation or further in the back country. the easy access bucks are still running with the doe's near the roads, and if that is what you are getting/seeing you need to get off the road and burn some boot leather.

 

[Edpre]

I know this is not 100% apples to apples comparison, but here in PA, F & G put an antler restriction in place a few years back on our whiteys. We heard all of the arguements posted above and alot more. Now, four or five seasons later, there's still a bunch of whiners crying about how there are "NO" deer left because of the increased opportunity for does and the "decreased opportunity" for bucks (more on this group in #4 below). A few things to note:
1. I've never seen or even heard of a "shoot first, count second" incident yet, though I'm sure it's happened on occassion by the indiscriminate shooter (not a hunter if you do that), and we have some 500,000+ hunters out on the opening day. That's the equivalent of every other man, woman and child that lives in Montana, out hunting on opening day.
2. Guys who would blast the first deer with a 3" spike by 7:15 am on the opener cannot seem to beat their chest and tell the stories of the good ole days when they bagged a buck every first day before 8:00 and had not one set of antlers kept because after the hangover burned off, they would have been embarrassed to even set them on the coffe table, let alone hang them on the wall. Those horns only ever were used to make custom handles for 1 1/2" blade paring knives, and toothpick necklaces. They now have to actually have clear vision prior to the shot.
3. In the second year and third year we saw the change really begin to become visibly established. When I was a kid through as little as four years ago, it was very common to see deer mounted and proudly displayed in the den that were six-pointers with 10"-12" spreads (that's eastern count six, 3 x 3). 8 pointers with anything over 14" were "once in a lifetime" deer, even for guys that lived to hunt. I know, I've got a 15" 8 pointer that'd probably score 100" stuffed and hanging. Two seasons ago we killed a 148" buck. Last year we killed one that touched 150". Four years ago this was completely unheard of. There are more bucks in general and it is clearly visible to anyone that spends any time afield that there are more bucks. "Average Joe" hunters are now even passing up basket rack 8-pointers becuase they've seen the monsters on their scouting trips. First year hunting kids are passing up spikes, 4's and 6's even though they're legal for juniors and shooting whopper 8's and 10's for their first bucks.
4. Even though these rules worked wonders for our deer herd, there are still a whole bunch of whiners, crying every time they get a chance. The funny part is that as soon as I ask where they hunt and they tell me the same farm and the same treestand that they've hunted for the past 25 years, I ask - "Does the farmer still farm?" -- "No". "Do you put any food plots in?" -- "Nope" "Is there a new development nearby?" -- "yep, 1/2 mile away" "Ever see any bucks there?" -- "Yep, slammers, every morning that we drive through it" AND, they still can't connect the dots!
At least for whiteys, antler restrictions work wonders. I actually look forward to hunting season in PA. Not sure how it would work out west for muleys, but I cannot imagine the results being that drastically opposite. Less tags may be filled with antlers, but those that are will be filled with better quality. The key, IMO, is to offer increased doe tags to offset the reduced buck harvest numbers and give meat opportunities to those strictly in it for the meat.

Just my $0.02.

Ed

 

[deserteagle500]

i tend to agree with edpre on his latest post. if anyone can find the magic button on how to best control and manage the utah deer herd, let me know. i'll push it!


beat this

 

[kilbuc]

Not to beat a dead horse.. but, this has been discussed/debated several times over the last few years. 1st, Mule deer are not elk, mule deer are not whitetails. Over the last 50 years, I know, I know many of you have'nt been around for 50 years, almost every western state have tried point restrictions and as a lomg term management tool it does't work. You end up selecting for small antler size (the young 4pts, the very deer you want to encourage are taken but you leave the young spikes and forked horns the ones with less potential)also there is a significant illegal kill. But it can be used as a short term tool of 2-3 years to quickly put a bunch of bucks into the population. It can work if you limit the # of hunters, but if you limit the # of hunters you don't need pt. restrictions, just adjust the hunter numbers.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"

 

[sjhgraysage]

We have 3 point or better muley hunting here in WA. state, and in my opinion limiting hunter numbers would work a bunch better at getting more mature bucks, but most hunters won't give up the opportunity to hunt with a general otc tag every year for bigger bucks every other year.

 

[tabbyhntr]

this is exactly why utah needs to change the management to micro manage areas, it works in every other state so why not utah? DWR just says there wouldnt be neough man power shich is absolutely absurd!

 

[inline]

You simply have to let it work for it to work for deer. It took several years for the elk herds to show improvement. For the poeple who say that your just going to kill of all of the small 4 points every year and then you will have spikes and two points doing the breeding. Thats what we have right now young deer spreading inferior genes. We have to try something else because what we are doing now isn't working.

 

[nickman]

The answer is pretty simple.....move the season dates back to where they were 30 years ago. This BS of hunting deer in the middle of summer is dumb.

Most hunters only see small deer now, so that is what gets shot. When winter migration starts and some big deer move off the hi country range, have deer season coincide with the migration, then you would see more 5 and 6 bys'.

In the Sierra, during fall migration, way more mature bucks are "tagged" by Frieghtliners than Winchesters tag all season.

 

[deserteagle500]

so should i do my part and harvest the inferior deer? or hold out for the mature bucks?




beat this

 

[UGAhunter]

I have the solution, but there are a lot of people out there that don't think it can be done. Here it is:

Impose 4-point ar better antler restrictions AND move the rut up about a month so that the big bucks can breed before they get shot!

Now, what is the problem with that????

 

[DallanC]

>Now, what is the problem with
>that????

You will only ever have dinky 4pts and monster 3pts doing all the breeding, and only have dinky 4pts to hunt because you are concentrating ALL of the pressure onto the mature bucks during their most critical time of year. After the rut they are weakened and need to store up energy before the snow flys... which is precisely when you want to be hunting them.

Almost all of the mature bucks will be killed one way or another yearly, so the following year you will only have bucks that were previously spike,2pts and 3pts the year before, with their first set of 4x4 antlers being left to hunt.

People forget that every guy that shoots a spike, leaves 1 more mature buck running around somewhere.


-DallanC

 

[UGAhunter]

Dallan,

Sorry you missed the sarcasm! I did say that part of my plan was to move the rut up a month or so. That would put it around the first of October so the does would be bred by the time the rifle hunt starts about Oct 20.

UGA

 

[groundcheck]

desert, I think there would be a great benefit to a point restriction. History will tell you this, "though many will argue" look at some of the best areas in the state like the pahvant, henry mtns, boulder mtns,paunsaguant, ect. all had 3or4 point restrictions in the past and I believe that it helped alot, and I believe it would benefit us now I see no reason to think otherwise but in the same breath the main reason for the decline in the deer #s in giant bucks and in deer in general is they have very little winter range

 

[Trash340]

Richfield BLM did a five year study on 3 point or better, from 1985 through 1989. They showed all of the positive and negative results of this type of management. Bottom line, antler restriction works to improve buck/doe ratios, simply because hunters have to leave certain bucks alone......namely spikes and two points. Think about it for a minute.....currently on the Henry Mtns. hunters harvest 4 point or better bucks. They can shoot any thing they want but they choose to harvest 4 point or better. As long as sportsmen are educated as to the pros and cons of antler restriction hunting, it is a great short term management scheme. If Utah did state wide 3 point or better management for 3 years and let the young bucks survive, they could go right back to regional management and have better buck herds. People would not have to shoot yearling or 2 year old bucks, because there would be plenty of older age class bucks. UWDR would not have to cut out hunters and reduce tags....just limit the type of buck that is legal for harvest. BLM's study clearly proves this but UDWR politics and uneducated sportmen currently prevent this type of deer managemnt from happening.

 

[Trash340]

There is only one way to get mature (3 years old or older) bucks. They have to survive as a fawn, and then as a yearling, and then as a 2 year old. As long as the majority of hunters harvest young bucks (yearlings and 2 year olds) then there will be very few older bucks. Also, if you have hunted deer before then you know that yearlings are easy to harvest because they are young with very little life experience......they run with their moms. Mature, older bucks can handle a lot of hunting pressure. Mother nature ensures this through "Survival of the Fittest". Antler restriction, in the form of 3 point or better, simply maximizes opportunity and minimizes young buck harvest. It is very effective short term management. Utah could do this for 3 years and then go from regional buck only to individual unit buck only and have more viable buck populations. Or they could cut the majority of hunters out by going to limited entry management, which minimizes opportunity and overall buck harvest, resulting in even larger buck populations. That is why Utah is number one in the world for 400 class bulls.....limited entry management. Antler restriction is a happy medium that would work.

 

[five_point_buck]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-07 AT 08:36AM (MST)[p]I have a real simple solution....

STOP SHOOTING FORKIES. Problem solved.

I'll never understand why people other than first timers or young hunters feel the need to let the air out of a forkie. The most common excuse is "I needed to fill the freezer". Thats cool. The follow up question is "how long did you hunt" answer: "I got him opening moring". Way to go, good effort. Here's and idea, plan on working a little harder, stay out a little longer, and HUNT.

My thought is why not increase the number of either sex tags? Let those "Freezer fillers" or first timers shoot an old dry trophy doe.

There are two arguments that need to be adressed.
1). "Killing does means less fawns". BS. The habitat can only upport "x" amount of deer per square mile based on available food. Mother nature doesn't give a rip if the 20 deer in any particular square mile are does or bucks. In my opinion, there are far too many does that don't get a chance to breed during the relatively short estrus periods. It's simple, 20 bucks can't service 100 does (without viagra and a big bottle of zinc supplimets. Less does equals better forage, better forage equals healthier deer which equals more twin fawns, which equals the greater chance of more bucks entering the population. Then guess what, there are more bucks to service less does which coincidentally are healthy and ready to drop twins. GENIUS!!!!

2). It drives me CRAZY when I hear the argument that yound deer breeding does causes inferior genetics to be passed along. With the same logic, a 16 year old guy would produce a less attractive or gentically inferior kid than a 30 year old guy (note: if the woman is an ugly weathered leatherface peg legged hunchback, there is a 50% chance the kid is doomed).
Think about it for a second. Genetics are passed along both from the buck and the DOE. Yes, a forkie may get lucky and knock up a doe, but there is no way of knowing what genetics his little swimmers carry to the egg. Maybe his daddy was a big ol' freak nasty, but he hasn't had the time or groceries to stack that kind of bone on his head. Maybe Momma comes from a long line of wide monsters. You never know. Understand this. The "load" he delivers does not get better with age or rack size. To be blunt, Jiz is Jiz.


five_point_buck
C.B.C.S.

 

[Deerlove]

Welcome back Five Point, good points, I say that no yearling bucks should be shot unless your under 18.

 

[Trash340]

Wildlife 101 says that in order to keep viable deer herds, game managers need to harvest does. I believed this right out of college........but guess what? After 10 years of experience in the field it did not take me long to figure out that the best way to take a deer herd to its knees is to kill the producers (does). Mother Nature takes care of keeping viable, productive deer herds through natural predators (mainly coyotes and cougars), and hard winters. Non productive old does (8 years plus)are very vulnerable to natural predators. If they make it past all of the cougars and coyotes then they winter kill during a hard or severe winter. It's called "Survival of the Fittest" and anyone who does not believe this concept, does not have actual on-ground experience.

Your point is well taken on younger bucks having lesser genetics. Maybe they do...... maybe they don't. The only way to know is to let a buck live to be prime (5 to 7 years old) and therefore maximize his genetic potential. As long as Utah provides sportsmen with young bucks (yearlings & 2 year olds), then they will harvest young bucks. Somehow they have to be allowed to live........Antler Restriction (3 point or better) or Limited Entry Management. And don't by into the UDWR excuse of "We have to maximize our revenue and the only way to do that is maximize the number of tags". It is real simple, quality equals more value. Older bucks means that UDWR could charge more for fewer tags. Most sportsmen would support an increase in fees if the quality was better. Would'nt you pay more for a three year old or older 4 point, than for a yearling or 2 year old two or three point?? It is all about "Common Sense" ........and Politics does not have any.

 

[deserteagle500]

5_POINT_BUCK


"It drives me CRAZY when I hear the argument that yound deer breeding does causes inferior genetics to be passed along. With the same logic, a 16 year old guy would produce a less attractive or gentically inferior kid than a 30 year old guy (note: if the woman is an ugly weathered leatherface peg legged hunchback, there is a 50% chance the kid is doomed).
Think about it for a second. Genetics are passed along both from the buck and the DOE. Yes, a forkie may get lucky and knock up a doe, but there is no way of knowing what genetics his little swimmers carry to the egg. Maybe his daddy was a big ol' freak nasty, but he hasn't had the time or groceries to stack that kind of bone on his head. Maybe Momma comes from a long line of wide monsters. You never know. Understand this. The "load" he delivers does not get better with age or rack size. To be blunt, Jiz is Jiz."



i agree with everyhting you say here. in all honesty i don't think that anything will ever be done about this. we can go to the RAC meeting and plead our cases but i really think that the dollar signs are what speaks the loudest.

we need to shoot a bigger buck. let the little guys walk. if the state won't recognize an antler point restriction then we need to. if i pass up a 2 point and hold out for a big deer, (and every one else does too) then there will be less deer taken, and more next year. (bigger isn't what we're lookin for here, we all want to shoot a mature buck). there isn't going to be an age gap of deer, that has to be the stupidest thing that i have ever heard. the little ones are going to get big and the big ones are going to get bigger. ( and more mature)




beat this

 

[huntervirg]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-07 AT 08:58PM (MST)[p]What is meant by the two points doing the breeding is just what is said, the large inferior older two points that have bad genetics and will never be nothing but a two point, will be able to live his full life and breed lots of does where as the bucks with good genetics that are four points in there second year of growing antlers are shot young because they pass the point requirement. After all there are older mature bucks with two points, that is what is meant in the earlier post, not yearling two points.

 

[deserteagle500]

with that said, i do believe that the number of big bucks will remain the same. and i also believe that they will continue the breeding. i just think that there will be a low percent of success the first few years. the big bucks are smart and will always be big, it'll just let the little ones get that much bigger.




the only eagle with enough power and speed to kill and gut you with one shot

 

[khensley]

All these arguments....I think it's been proven that point restrictions don't work on mule deer for long-term management.

As for beating up on people who shoot forks the first day....why? Seems pretty arrogant to me. So what if a person wants to go out in one day and shoot the first legal buck he sees?

What I've read (and it makes sense to me!) is that you're better off cutting tags way back to increase the overall population, then actually concentrating your harvest more on the smaller bucks, allowing the mature bucks to breed. Keep the tag numbers at a level that allows enough escapement for those forks to make it to a 4point, and you've got a healthy, harvestable population.

I've always felt if the hunting community continues to focus more and more on the "trophy" aspect of the hunt, we're playing into the anti's hands. IMHO; first priority should be herd health, followed by general harvest opportunities, followed by trophy opportunities. Unfortunately, here in Oregon our list is skewed....first general harvest, second general harvest, and last general harvest. Utah's a heck of a lot better off than we are.

kh

 

[Bigbuck9]

I agree with you 110% KH the only way to make point restrictions work on mule deer is to severely limit hunter opportunity. While there are a lot of people who only care about trophy size the majority of hunter would rather be able to go hunting on a regular basis than have a great chance of killing a monster every 20 years unless they have big money to buy a tag.

However most states try to accomidate both by managing most areas for maximum opportunity while limiting oppertunity in a few units to maximize trophy potential.

 

[deserteagle500]

>All these arguments....I think it's been
>proven that point restrictions don't
>work on mule deer for
>long-term management.
>
>As for beating up on people
>who shoot forks the first
>day....why? Seems pretty arrogant
>to me. So what
>if a person wants to
>go out in one day
>and shoot the first legal
>buck he sees?
>
>What I've read (and it makes
>sense to me!) is that
>you're better off cutting tags
>way back to increase the
>overall population, then actually concentrating
>your harvest more on the
>smaller bucks, allowing the mature
>bucks to breed. Keep
>the tag numbers at a
>level that allows enough escapement
>for those forks to make
>it to a 4point, and
>you've got a healthy, harvestable
>population.
>
>I've always felt if the hunting
>community continues to focus more
>and more on the "trophy"
>aspect of the hunt, we're
>playing into the anti's hands.
> IMHO; first priority should
>be herd health, followed by
>general harvest opportunities, followed by
>trophy opportunities. Unfortunately, here
>in Oregon our list is
>skewed....first general harvest, second general
>harvest, and last general harvest.
> Utah's a heck of
>a lot better off than
>we are.
>
>kh





i fully agree with you here. i'd love a chance at shooting a buck every year i hunt. even if there aren't enough tags for me to hunt every year.

the only eagle with enough power and speed to kill and gut you with one shot

 

[gilamonster8]

AZgfd should be your model. Look at the book elk muledeer coues and goats that come out of this state every year. Hell they are starting to sub devide more and more units.

 

[five_point_buck]

KHensley,

I get your point about the shooting forkies and looking back my comment may have semd harsh. The real issue I guess is that we can't have it both ways. No, there is nothing wrong with only hunting one day and shooting a legal buck (forky), those guys and gals probably aren't complaining about deer numbers or trophy size, after all, there are lots of forkies to choose from.

For those that would like to see larger deer with bigger size, we need to hold off and do our part to let 'em grow.

five_point_buck
C.B.C.S.

 

[ktg]

The only way I would support a point restriction on deer is if they placed the restriction on only those hunters over 18 yrs old. Just like Utah is giving out 'management' tags on the premium elk units in order to get rid of the older bulls that are 5 points, there should be some tags to harvest the older deer with fewer than 4 points. Why not let the youth hunters take them?