I know this will be hard for many to believe after seeing the many posts with big wasatch bulls being taken this year, but I want to get others thoughts on the subject who hunt the snatch regularly. Myself and some family have been hunting elk on the snatch for 10+ years. We feel we have a pretty good feel on many of the areas and where we can consistently take big bulls. However, over the last 3-4 years the DWR has consistently increased cow tags in the area and have really decimated the overall strength of the heard. Many areas I would go into and see herds of 50, 70, 80+ now I am seeing 7-8 here and 10 or 12 there. Some areas seemed overflowing with elk and now I hike into those areas and it's tough to find them. Also while out hunting and scouting during the rut of the hunt this year had a dramatically different feel. It almost felt as if it really never got going. I got out a few times with bull bugling, but didn't see or hear near the action I have on previous years. It only seems reasonable to me that without the cows we aren't going to see the bulls we are used to seeing. This is especially disturbing as I am still a couple years out before I can even start putting in again. One thought I had as to why the rut just seemed to fizzle this year is that maybe with the dramatic reduction of cows on the unit that the cows all got bred in a relatively quick period of time. Meaning that without cows in heat there was a short period of time that the elk really got worked up and battled it out to breed those cows. This is just an assumption and by no means has any biological evidence, but it seems to make sense to me. Anyhow, for those who have spent time on the snatch, what are your thoughts?
Wasatch in trouble?
- Thread starter alp75
- Start date
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Ain't just the Wasatch!
But!
$,000+ Cow Killer Tags!
Who know's how many Spike Tags!
GEEZUS!
What a way to decimate a Producing Herd!
A couple more years with the same type of management & you can count the Wasatch out!
You're seeing with your own eyes what's going down Alp,it Ain't Good!
It's called the UDWR putting Money in their Back Pockets as Quickly as they can not caring about the Future of that Herd!
AKA:Cutting your own Throat!
I've seen it happen other places & takes many,many,many years to part way recover!
I don't even Hunt the Wasatch,but what a Shame!
I'll STHU now,they told me I'm not a Biologist and I told them I sure the Hell don't have to be a Biologist to see the Light!
This years Hunts on the Wasatch Ain't Hunts,It's a Fricken Slaughter!
And like you said Alp,sure there were some Nice Bulls taken again this year on the Wasatch,But We only see the Cream of the Crop posted on the Internet,If we could hear/read about every Poor Bastard that wasted their Points & ended up with PISSCUTTERS most people would have a different look out on the Unit rather than everybody getting on MM & then saying:JUDAS,You Guys see all the Big Bulls they took off the Wasatch this year?
Percentage of Big Bulls compared to Percentages of Dink Bulls being taken,We are talking some major differences in numbers right there,but like I said above,you only see the Cream of the Crop on the Internet,I remember a few years ago in the Banner days of Trophy Elk it woulda been almost embarrassing to Post a Pic of a Sub 350" Bull,them 350"er's are looking better by the day,Thanks UDWR & your PISS POOR Management!
Well that oughta be enough to improve my Odds of drawing a Tag again in 2014!
Best Watch Out!
My Arm is starting to Hurt!
I'm about to Itch it!
But!
$,000+ Cow Killer Tags!
Who know's how many Spike Tags!
GEEZUS!
What a way to decimate a Producing Herd!
A couple more years with the same type of management & you can count the Wasatch out!
You're seeing with your own eyes what's going down Alp,it Ain't Good!
It's called the UDWR putting Money in their Back Pockets as Quickly as they can not caring about the Future of that Herd!
AKA:Cutting your own Throat!
I've seen it happen other places & takes many,many,many years to part way recover!
I don't even Hunt the Wasatch,but what a Shame!
I'll STHU now,they told me I'm not a Biologist and I told them I sure the Hell don't have to be a Biologist to see the Light!
This years Hunts on the Wasatch Ain't Hunts,It's a Fricken Slaughter!
And like you said Alp,sure there were some Nice Bulls taken again this year on the Wasatch,But We only see the Cream of the Crop posted on the Internet,If we could hear/read about every Poor Bastard that wasted their Points & ended up with PISSCUTTERS most people would have a different look out on the Unit rather than everybody getting on MM & then saying:JUDAS,You Guys see all the Big Bulls they took off the Wasatch this year?
Percentage of Big Bulls compared to Percentages of Dink Bulls being taken,We are talking some major differences in numbers right there,but like I said above,you only see the Cream of the Crop on the Internet,I remember a few years ago in the Banner days of Trophy Elk it woulda been almost embarrassing to Post a Pic of a Sub 350" Bull,them 350"er's are looking better by the day,Thanks UDWR & your PISS POOR Management!
Well that oughta be enough to improve my Odds of drawing a Tag again in 2014!
Best Watch Out!
My Arm is starting to Hurt!
I'm about to Itch it!
littlebighorn
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,313
LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-13 AT 06:59AM (MST)[p]Come on Bess!
"It's called the UDWR putting Money in their Back Pockets as Quickly as they can not caring about the Future of that Herd!"
When's the last time you saw a DWR employee building a fancy house??? I don't see any of them with bulging wallets!
Most of those guys qualify for food stamps!
"It's called the UDWR putting Money in their Back Pockets as Quickly as they can not caring about the Future of that Herd!"
When's the last time you saw a DWR employee building a fancy house??? I don't see any of them with bulging wallets!
Most of those guys qualify for food stamps!
E
elkun
Guest
you want to see shot out look at anthro........get rid of the livestock.on forest and blm,,,then see what you could have for elk .
Where is "PRO" when you need him... two years ago this thread would have blown up to over 100 posts by now... LOL!
Mntman
"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
Mntman
"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
P
pheaz
Guest
Alp, Elkassassin pretty well summed it up. The unit is on a quick roller coaster headed down.
Coyote_chaser
Active Member
- Messages
- 847
Lets keep the 90+ success rate rifle rut shoots though... Sound management
HorseCreek
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,242
>Alp, Elkassassin pretty well summed it
>up. The unit is on
>a quick roller coaster headed
>down.
Lololololololololol!!!
Traditional >>>------->
>up. The unit is on
>a quick roller coaster headed
>down.
Lololololololololol!!!
Traditional >>>------->
gotthefever
Active Member
- Messages
- 142
Hunted the Wasatch for 10 straight day with my father on his Muzzleloader LE tag. Couldn't agree more the original poster. Never saw a herd bull with more than 7 cows! Contrast that to he LE hunt I went on with my a good friend of mine on a LE down south and each herd bull had 20+ cows with some as many as 35/40! The rut was a joke and never seemed to get going at all on the 10 days we hunted. UDWR is screwed up. 300+ cow tags for the past several years, including this one, and now throw in a late hunt slaughter and the Wasatch is toast! Such a disappointing unit from what it once was and could be if managed right.
fever
fever
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Hey fever!
You're a little Low on that '300+' number!
You're not really Wrong cuzz you added the '+'!
Try adding another zero & bumping the first digit a notch!
And littlebig!
I didn't say the UDWR Employee's were putting all the money in their back pockets!
JUDAS!
You want DAX getting on here & jumpin my Azz?
What I'm sayin is:
Game animals/Deer/Elk = Big Money to the UDWR!
Looks like they'd manage it to still be there in the Future years?
To Shoot the Future Big Bulls (Yes,Spikes!) and Cows (Yes the Producers!) is a Damn Joke!
But then Once again,I'm not a Biologist,so I'll STHU!
Best Watch Out!
My Arm is starting to Hurt!
I'm about to Itch it!
You're a little Low on that '300+' number!
You're not really Wrong cuzz you added the '+'!
Try adding another zero & bumping the first digit a notch!
And littlebig!
I didn't say the UDWR Employee's were putting all the money in their back pockets!
JUDAS!
You want DAX getting on here & jumpin my Azz?
What I'm sayin is:
Game animals/Deer/Elk = Big Money to the UDWR!
Looks like they'd manage it to still be there in the Future years?
To Shoot the Future Big Bulls (Yes,Spikes!) and Cows (Yes the Producers!) is a Damn Joke!
But then Once again,I'm not a Biologist,so I'll STHU!
Best Watch Out!
My Arm is starting to Hurt!
I'm about to Itch it!
when we were talking to the officer up there checking our tags my son asked him why they wanted to wipe out the elk like fishlake a few years back and he said that at all the rac meeting and board meetings that the cattlemen's assn. and SFW told them there are too many elk on the wasatch so two groups can change this how do we do something about it before it is too late, have also heard this from many other sources since then
Wasatch in trouble? Absolutely! I just got home from helping a friend on his spike hunt and am blown away with the UDWR stupidity. They must be bound and determined to wreck our herds every time we get a good thing going they come in and jack it up, not rocket science boys your making it way to hard. What you didn't learn anything from the fishlake massacre? Too many elk and not enough feed on the Wasatch? Hey it's your story but come on giving anyone with any tag in the unit a $30 cow tag is reckless, irresponsible, how do you have a freakin job!! I'm a hardcore dedicated hunter, that used to but no longer and haven't hunted the Wasatch for myself for years and am sick after what I saw this weekend. I heard over 200 shots opening day, saw numerous wounded cows, passed damned few camps that didn't have 1 or more elk hanging in a tree. I have never seen elk react the way they did walking not running from hunters, not knowing what to do they had nowhere to run everyone had a cow tag. I'm ashamed of the way the fish and game structured this slaughter. Sad the Wasatch WAS a great unit. By the way and no offense to the fellow hunter that said he would like to see the elk heard thinned out and has seen an improvement in the deer since the slight decline of elk wake up and quit buying what the f&G is selling you. That has very little to do with our deer herd recovering. And I am all about muleys.
while we are calling everyone idiots from their personal experience on the Wasatch, I'm going to call the people that aren't seeing elk lazy bastards.... most days I was seeing close to 100 head a day with some big bulls mixed in... I had the archery tag and the reason I didn't kill is I was to picky, I let bulls go that I probably shouldn't have..
elk move year to year for a lot of different reasons.. adjust your hunting style to what the animals are doing, not what you want them to do...
elk move year to year for a lot of different reasons.. adjust your hunting style to what the animals are doing, not what you want them to do...
LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-13 AT 10:20PM (MST)[p]I agree the Wasatch is a good unit lots of elk. That's why the elk control tag sucks so bad there's not to many people even the lazy ones that cant smoke a cow with a rifle on the Wasatch. that unit is ganna take a beating this year. To bad.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Like I've said the last several years!
There might be a lot of Elk on the Wasatch!
But with Current Tactics (Past & Future!) this will be another Fish Lake Fiasco if somebody doesn't pull their Head Out soon!
Who in their Right Fricken Minds would wanna Hunt in a Zoo of Pumpkins shootin at anything that moves?
"""I got my Spike!"""
"""I got my Cow!"""
Big Deal!
You helped decimate a Herd!
I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
There might be a lot of Elk on the Wasatch!
But with Current Tactics (Past & Future!) this will be another Fish Lake Fiasco if somebody doesn't pull their Head Out soon!
Who in their Right Fricken Minds would wanna Hunt in a Zoo of Pumpkins shootin at anything that moves?
"""I got my Spike!"""
"""I got my Cow!"""
Big Deal!
You helped decimate a Herd!
I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
To Thin a Herd when Thinning needs done by Thinning a few Cows doesn't bother me!
But to KILL the Future Big Bulls (Spikes!) off a Unit due to GREED is Total BS!
I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
But to KILL the Future Big Bulls (Spikes!) off a Unit due to GREED is Total BS!
I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
E
elkun
Guest
be sure and thank you cattleman boys,,,,,
I talk to 3 different forest service guys when I was up there on le muzzleloader hunt. All three said the same thing! They said the reason there killing so many elk is because of the cattlemen. The cattle dudes say the elk is eating up all the feed and making it so they are coming in under weight. I asked the forest if this was true. They said no way! But it doesnt matter what we say cause we have little say on how many elk are takin. They said the cattlemen want the elk gone so in turn they can put more cows on the land. Thats why you see more and more tags with more and more cows.
Zeke
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,603
>
>"""I got my Spike!"""
>
>"""I got my Cow!"""
>
>Big Deal!
>
>You helped decimate a Herd!
>
Hey Bess,
Should we all just sit home for 25 years and wait for our LE tag? Or should we get out in the field and hit it hard and find a spike?
I was out for the cow slaughter and spike hunt and I saw near countless branched antler bulls! No shortage here. Evidently some of the spikes make it through the hunts. The Wasatch has never been closed to spike hunting and we still have some great bulls! We'd have even more if we never hunted elk at all but.... that seems silly to me.
I agree with you that "some" cow thinning needs to be done but I also agree that the wholesale slaughter has got to stop (although I didn't see very many cows shot). Most guys were content to drive the roads and sip coffee and the elk are much smarter than that!
I don't know what to make of it all since we can always find elk whether it be a LE tag or a spike hunt.
Some of you are much smarter than me, I'm sure, but the elk are still there and 90%+ of the guys will drag their trailers home without an elk in it whether it be a cow or spike.
Sure I want a bunch of trophy bulls on the mountain but I'd rather not wait another 25 years for a trophy tag before I can hunt elk again!
Zeke
>"""I got my Spike!"""
>
>"""I got my Cow!"""
>
>Big Deal!
>
>You helped decimate a Herd!
>
Hey Bess,
Should we all just sit home for 25 years and wait for our LE tag? Or should we get out in the field and hit it hard and find a spike?
I was out for the cow slaughter and spike hunt and I saw near countless branched antler bulls! No shortage here. Evidently some of the spikes make it through the hunts. The Wasatch has never been closed to spike hunting and we still have some great bulls! We'd have even more if we never hunted elk at all but.... that seems silly to me.
I agree with you that "some" cow thinning needs to be done but I also agree that the wholesale slaughter has got to stop (although I didn't see very many cows shot). Most guys were content to drive the roads and sip coffee and the elk are much smarter than that!
I don't know what to make of it all since we can always find elk whether it be a LE tag or a spike hunt.
Some of you are much smarter than me, I'm sure, but the elk are still there and 90%+ of the guys will drag their trailers home without an elk in it whether it be a cow or spike.
Sure I want a bunch of trophy bulls on the mountain but I'd rather not wait another 25 years for a trophy tag before I can hunt elk again!
Zeke
bowhunt
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,191
I know this unit has several main herds that winter in different locations.
This winter, you are welcome to come to my house and look at the winter elk I have watched for the last 20 years out my front window.
The elk peaked in numbers about 5 years ago. Could count ~350 elk on the hillside most winter days.
What has happened the last 5 years: From My journal:
-2008 Winter peak number 348
-2009 Winter peak number 290
-2010 Winter Peak number 328
-2011 Winter Peak number 285
-2012 Winter Peak number 265
Vast vast majority of the elk wintering on this mountain are cows and calves.
I do not see much of a change, and the reduction seems very controlled.
Just my 2 cents related to the winter Wasatch Elk I see.
This winter, you are welcome to come to my house and look at the winter elk I have watched for the last 20 years out my front window.
The elk peaked in numbers about 5 years ago. Could count ~350 elk on the hillside most winter days.
What has happened the last 5 years: From My journal:
-2008 Winter peak number 348
-2009 Winter peak number 290
-2010 Winter Peak number 328
-2011 Winter Peak number 285
-2012 Winter Peak number 265
Vast vast majority of the elk wintering on this mountain are cows and calves.
I do not see much of a change, and the reduction seems very controlled.
Just my 2 cents related to the winter Wasatch Elk I see.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
>
>>
>>"""I got my Spike!"""
>>
>>"""I got my Cow!"""
>>
>>Big Deal!
>>
>>You helped decimate a Herd!
>>
>
>Hey Bess,
>Should we all just sit home
>for 25 years and wait
>for our LE tag? Or
>should we get out in
>the field and hit it
>hard and find a spike?
>
>I was out for the cow
>slaughter and spike hunt and
>I saw near countless branched
>antler bulls! No shortage here.
>Evidently some of the spikes
>make it through the hunts.
>The Wasatch has never been
>closed to spike hunting and
>we still have some great
>bulls! We'd have even more
>if we never hunted elk
>at all but.... that seems
>silly to me.
>I agree with you that "some"
>cow thinning needs to be
>done but I also agree
>that the wholesale slaughter has
>got to stop (although I
>didn't see very many cows
>shot). Most guys were content
>to drive the roads and
>sip coffee and the elk
>are much smarter than that!
>
>I don't know what to make
>of it all since we
>can always find elk whether
>it be a LE tag
>or a spike hunt.
>Some of you are much smarter
>than me, I'm sure, but
>the elk are still there
>and 90%+ of the guys
>will drag their trailers home
>without an elk in it
>whether it be a cow
>or spike.
>Sure I want a bunch of
>trophy bulls on the mountain
>but I'd rather not wait
>another 25 years for a
>trophy tag before I can
>hunt elk again!
>Zeke
Well Zeke!
I don't like waitin 25 years for a chance at a decent Bull!
But I'm on my way & don't mind waiting my turn as long as the chance at a Trophy is still there!
Not every U-TARD can Hunt Trophy Bulls/Spike Bulls/PISSCUTTER Bulls/Cows Every year!
You don't Remember the Fish Lake Fiasco I take it?
I'd sure Hate to see a Wasatch Fiasco & I don't even Hunt there!
With Proper Management & Less Spike Killing the wait may not be 25 GAWD DAMNED Years!
I don't know the Answers!
But I do know this:
Turn the Wasatch into a Once Fish Lake situation & you're really gonna be Bawlin the Blues!
I don't know how many General Elk Tags the UDWR sold in the Basin this year but JUDAS F'N PRIEST!
Looked like Grand Salt Lake City!
Wheelers Galore & some real Law Breakin Bittches!
I Ain't never seen that many Hunters in one Pile!
I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
>>
>>"""I got my Spike!"""
>>
>>"""I got my Cow!"""
>>
>>Big Deal!
>>
>>You helped decimate a Herd!
>>
>
>Hey Bess,
>Should we all just sit home
>for 25 years and wait
>for our LE tag? Or
>should we get out in
>the field and hit it
>hard and find a spike?
>
>I was out for the cow
>slaughter and spike hunt and
>I saw near countless branched
>antler bulls! No shortage here.
>Evidently some of the spikes
>make it through the hunts.
>The Wasatch has never been
>closed to spike hunting and
>we still have some great
>bulls! We'd have even more
>if we never hunted elk
>at all but.... that seems
>silly to me.
>I agree with you that "some"
>cow thinning needs to be
>done but I also agree
>that the wholesale slaughter has
>got to stop (although I
>didn't see very many cows
>shot). Most guys were content
>to drive the roads and
>sip coffee and the elk
>are much smarter than that!
>
>I don't know what to make
>of it all since we
>can always find elk whether
>it be a LE tag
>or a spike hunt.
>Some of you are much smarter
>than me, I'm sure, but
>the elk are still there
>and 90%+ of the guys
>will drag their trailers home
>without an elk in it
>whether it be a cow
>or spike.
>Sure I want a bunch of
>trophy bulls on the mountain
>but I'd rather not wait
>another 25 years for a
>trophy tag before I can
>hunt elk again!
>Zeke
Well Zeke!
I don't like waitin 25 years for a chance at a decent Bull!
But I'm on my way & don't mind waiting my turn as long as the chance at a Trophy is still there!
Not every U-TARD can Hunt Trophy Bulls/Spike Bulls/PISSCUTTER Bulls/Cows Every year!
You don't Remember the Fish Lake Fiasco I take it?
I'd sure Hate to see a Wasatch Fiasco & I don't even Hunt there!
With Proper Management & Less Spike Killing the wait may not be 25 GAWD DAMNED Years!
I don't know the Answers!
But I do know this:
Turn the Wasatch into a Once Fish Lake situation & you're really gonna be Bawlin the Blues!
I don't know how many General Elk Tags the UDWR sold in the Basin this year but JUDAS F'N PRIEST!
Looked like Grand Salt Lake City!
Wheelers Galore & some real Law Breakin Bittches!
I Ain't never seen that many Hunters in one Pile!
I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
Beating a dead horse here but seems like a few of you are not seeing the big picture. I keep hearing things like "how many big bulls guys are seeing" and "how many cows they have seen on the winter range in the last 5 years" and "obviously some spikes are making it through the hunt because there sure are a lot of big bulls around". Which I agree with 100% on the past and current condition of the Wasatch elk heard it is/was awesome. And you absolutely have to manage the cows. But the point is, never before have you been able to go out and buy an over the counter $30 unlimited cow elk control tag in the tabby,current creek, reservation ridge, sheep creek area of the Wasatch. Anyone with a tag of any kind, any season DEER or ELK can buy one of these tags and shoot a cow during that season. Am I missing something? Anyone that thinks this control tactic isn,t going to negatively effect the elk herds in these areas DRASTICALLY has there head up there ass! Sure there will be good numbers of big bulls around the next couple of years and spikes do survive and grow into big bulls, but COWS make spikes. No spikes no big bulls. An eventual shortage of big bulls means less big bull tags and your odds of drawing that tag you have been waiting so long for just got worse. Wipe those cows out right after the rut why not most of them are pregnant killin 2 birds with one stone sweet bro! What an irresponsible shame. Sure am glad that's not my unit of choice I would be bent! Hope you guys that have been saving those precious points for so long draw soon and good luck. Cause that unit trophy quality is going to be feeling the effects of season 2013 in a few years just like fishlake did.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
>Elkassassin you got a good head
>on your shoulders I would
>hunt with you anyday.
Not everybody will agree with that!
Hunting is getting Tough!
I look back now 30 years ago thinking is was tough then!
Then I compare it to now!
JUDAS!
Just about all Hunters are Welcome in my Camp anytime!
I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
>on your shoulders I would
>hunt with you anyday.
Not everybody will agree with that!
Hunting is getting Tough!
I look back now 30 years ago thinking is was tough then!
Then I compare it to now!
JUDAS!
Just about all Hunters are Welcome in my Camp anytime!
I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
RidgeRebel
Active Member
- Messages
- 201
I spoke with a biologist in the South office today that is over the Fishlake unit and I asked her the reason for the over harvest of cow elk on the Fishlake a few years ago and why on the Wasatch now? She stated the DWR is receiving lots of pressure from the Utah Cattlemen Association to lower herd objectives. She also stated that hunter groups have put far more funds into habitat enhancement than the cattlemen. When I asked how it is that they are winning the argument, she stated they have friends in high places. My friends, we are losing the fight yet again. Just another example of government corruption. Until we as sportsman lobby long enough nothing will change. Other states have wildlife boards with term limits as well as other governments positions. Something to think about. The biologist also stated that hunter groups just aren't organized enough like the cattlemen to make any changes.
From the info given to us at the RAC, part of the reason for cow tags and late antlerless hunts is to keep the total, overall elk numbers at the agreed upon population levels. The population numbers came as a result of all parties that have a stake in land use--i.e. FS, BLM, cattlemen, sheepmen, sportsman DWR etc. Perhaps the biggest part of the problem is the number of elk on the unit that move to and stay on private, unhuntable land on the unit. There certainly seems to be a large number of elk on private lands that are counted in the total number of elk. In essence, in my opinion, the DWR ends up really only being able to control the numbers on the public land on the Wasatch. They know that many elk move on to the private lands because they find refuge there-- a simple instinct of predator avoidance. They are not bothered there, so they move and stay there. There is a good chance that the on the Wasatch, public hunters may only be hunting 60-70% of the total number of animals on the unit with the remainder on private, unhuntable lands. Until something changes this fact, the DWR can only really manage the numbers on public lands, and the public land hunters will most likely see decreasing numbers of elk on public lands.
Zeke
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,603
Well, we all agree on a few things so don't get you panties in a wad!
OTC cow tags are about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of and they call them "control" tags.
"Control" means a methodical, systematic process by which the F&G manage animals. OTC cow tags don't fit that definition at all.
We do need sufficient cows to propegate the heard and OTC tags will certainly damage parts of the unit. I don't understand why we have OTC cow tags when lots of guys who applied for antlerless tags didn't draw. Weird process and counter productive.
Now for the spikes;
The spike have been hunted since the inception of modern hunting and because the branched animals have been "protected" through LE tag dispensing there is NO reason to accuse the spike hunters of damaging the quality of big bulls. Spikes are damn hard to hunt. They are the smallest segment of the population and PLENTY make it through, evidenced but the astounding numbers of branched antler elk currently on the unit.
So there, we agree on a point or two.
Good luck with the future drawings. I've had my "turn" on the Wasatch and now I'm in line for a great deer tag but it will mathmatically be about 25-30 years before I'll draw an elk tag! I'll be 85 to 90 years old by then! In the meanwhile a guy has a choice, stay home or hunt spikes! I won't be staying home!
By the way, I got my spike and damn proud of it!!!!
Zeke
OTC cow tags are about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of and they call them "control" tags.
"Control" means a methodical, systematic process by which the F&G manage animals. OTC cow tags don't fit that definition at all.
We do need sufficient cows to propegate the heard and OTC tags will certainly damage parts of the unit. I don't understand why we have OTC cow tags when lots of guys who applied for antlerless tags didn't draw. Weird process and counter productive.
Now for the spikes;
The spike have been hunted since the inception of modern hunting and because the branched animals have been "protected" through LE tag dispensing there is NO reason to accuse the spike hunters of damaging the quality of big bulls. Spikes are damn hard to hunt. They are the smallest segment of the population and PLENTY make it through, evidenced but the astounding numbers of branched antler elk currently on the unit.
So there, we agree on a point or two.
Good luck with the future drawings. I've had my "turn" on the Wasatch and now I'm in line for a great deer tag but it will mathmatically be about 25-30 years before I'll draw an elk tag! I'll be 85 to 90 years old by then! In the meanwhile a guy has a choice, stay home or hunt spikes! I won't be staying home!
By the way, I got my spike and damn proud of it!!!!
Zeke
Zeke
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,603
>From the info given to us
>at the RAC, part of
>the reason for cow tags
>and late antlerless hunts is
>to keep the total, overall
>elk numbers at the agreed
>upon population levels. The population
>numbers came as a result
>of all parties that have
>a stake in land use--i.e.
>FS, BLM, cattlemen, sheepmen, sportsman
>DWR etc. Perhaps the biggest
>part of the problem is
>the number of elk on
>the unit that move to
>and stay on private, unhuntable
>land on the unit. There
>certainly seems to be a
>large number of elk on
>private lands that are counted
>in the total number of
>elk. In essence, in my
>opinion, the DWR ends up
>really only being able to
>control the numbers on the
>public land on the Wasatch.
>They know that many elk
>move on to the private
>lands because they find refuge
>there-- a simple instinct of
>predator avoidance. They are not
>bothered there, so they move
>and stay there. There is
>a good chance that the
>on the Wasatch, public hunters
>may only be hunting 60-70%
>of the total number of
>animals on the unit with
>the remainder on private, unhuntable
>lands. Until something changes this
>fact, the DWR can only
>really manage the numbers on
>public lands, and the public
>land hunters will most likely
>see decreasing numbers of elk
>on public lands.
+1
Good point and something must be done to change the way elk are counted. The elk take refuge on the same land, owned by the same people who demand the population be held at a certain level. This will negetively impact our public resource.... and it will continue unless changes come.
Zeke
>at the RAC, part of
>the reason for cow tags
>and late antlerless hunts is
>to keep the total, overall
>elk numbers at the agreed
>upon population levels. The population
>numbers came as a result
>of all parties that have
>a stake in land use--i.e.
>FS, BLM, cattlemen, sheepmen, sportsman
>DWR etc. Perhaps the biggest
>part of the problem is
>the number of elk on
>the unit that move to
>and stay on private, unhuntable
>land on the unit. There
>certainly seems to be a
>large number of elk on
>private lands that are counted
>in the total number of
>elk. In essence, in my
>opinion, the DWR ends up
>really only being able to
>control the numbers on the
>public land on the Wasatch.
>They know that many elk
>move on to the private
>lands because they find refuge
>there-- a simple instinct of
>predator avoidance. They are not
>bothered there, so they move
>and stay there. There is
>a good chance that the
>on the Wasatch, public hunters
>may only be hunting 60-70%
>of the total number of
>animals on the unit with
>the remainder on private, unhuntable
>lands. Until something changes this
>fact, the DWR can only
>really manage the numbers on
>public lands, and the public
>land hunters will most likely
>see decreasing numbers of elk
>on public lands.
+1
Good point and something must be done to change the way elk are counted. The elk take refuge on the same land, owned by the same people who demand the population be held at a certain level. This will negetively impact our public resource.... and it will continue unless changes come.
Zeke
E
elkun
Guest
are you going to mount that spike zeke??? or just send pictures to elkassassin /?
Zeke
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,603
>are you going to mount that
>spike zeke??? or just send
>pictures to elkassassin /?
Nope, just eat him and enjoy the excitement of the hunt and the beauty of a great outing with my brother, son and nephew. The other option is to spend all out time during hunting seasons on the computer because we would only hunt elk once... maybe twice in our lifetime otherwise.
I think I'll just email him a few pics of spike along with about a 1000 pics of Wasatch branched antler bulls (which a guy can only hunt every 20-30 years or so, at best).
I think elkasss and I are a lot alike but we differ on the spike hunt option. I guess I just like to hunt more than he does (TIC)and have not seen the negative impact to the big bulls.
Uncontrolled cow killing will do far more to harm the future of the unit for quantity and quality than the spike hunt ever could.
Like I said, we could just not hunt any elk at all and talk about it on the computer all day and then we'd have all sorts of big elk! Silly option though, don't you agree?
I'm a hunter and proud of it!
Zeke
>spike zeke??? or just send
>pictures to elkassassin /?
Nope, just eat him and enjoy the excitement of the hunt and the beauty of a great outing with my brother, son and nephew. The other option is to spend all out time during hunting seasons on the computer because we would only hunt elk once... maybe twice in our lifetime otherwise.
I think I'll just email him a few pics of spike along with about a 1000 pics of Wasatch branched antler bulls (which a guy can only hunt every 20-30 years or so, at best).
I think elkasss and I are a lot alike but we differ on the spike hunt option. I guess I just like to hunt more than he does (TIC)and have not seen the negative impact to the big bulls.
Uncontrolled cow killing will do far more to harm the future of the unit for quantity and quality than the spike hunt ever could.
Like I said, we could just not hunt any elk at all and talk about it on the computer all day and then we'd have all sorts of big elk! Silly option though, don't you agree?
I'm a hunter and proud of it!
Zeke
E
elkun
Guest
zeke I have had 2 le elk tags, s o not much chance of getting more, so I hunt deer , never cared for spike or cow much, but have no problem if you do,,,to each his own,,,the big problem with our elk is cattlemen, they don't like to share, public ground,,,,,
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,928
Hey Zeke!
Post Pics of your PISSCUTTER Bull or it ain't so!
RAZZIN Ya Bud!
I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
Post Pics of your PISSCUTTER Bull or it ain't so!
RAZZIN Ya Bud!
I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
