Deseret Elk Changes

Ticks N Tines

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Looks like Deseret decided they were giving out way too many public elk tags. They took the ratio (private/public) from 85/15 and set it at 90/10.

They now give out 89 Private tags and 17 Public tags instead of 82 Private tags and 21 public tags.

I have been a supporter of CWMUs for a long time and defended the program several times. This one I cannot explain and really makes me wonder what the heck is going on behind the curtain.

Can anybody tell me the reason for this? I don't get it.

The entire reason for the program was to provide "Public Opportunity" and they just took that out of the equation.
 
Matt--

Perhaps if you really want to know what is going on, you could pick up the phone or send me an email. If you do the math, the split is actually 84/16. The changes had nothing to do with giving out 'way too many public tags', I just didn't' think we/DLL needed any cow tags so you could apply for one:). The additional tags went to adjacent landowners who joined the unit. If you go back and look at the past 10 years you will see that DLL has increased its tags to the public way more than what we used to.

Todd Black

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A 90:10 Split is the lowest possible split you can give the public Todd. In the past the split was a tiny bit more generous to the public (85:15).

I thought about this change for hours before I posted this and could not come up with one reason for it other than to make more money and reduce public opportunity.

You of all people should know that the public opportunity is a huge part of the program. We should be striving for ways to INCRREASE opportunity, not get rid of it.

Also, the rules state that when public land is included into a CWMU such as Deseret a 85:15 split or better should put into the plan.

Are you going to give all of that public land back to us now that you went back to a 90:10 Split? Something tells me this won't happen.

I would love to hear a detailed biological reason for reducing the public opportunity on Deseret in 2014.

Thanks,

Matt
 
If there are still 17 public tags, how did they just throw the public opportunity out the window? Also, how many public cow tags will they draw?

I'd say there is a good amount of public opportunity at Deseret. 'Only' giving 17 public elk tags doesn't bother me. Having hunted on Deseret myself and my dad drawing one of the public bull tags in 2008, I'd say Deseret is one CWMU that does it right.
 
Simple solution take away their tags. I feel this is a crock, and a 90/10 split would only be fair if its the state hunters with the 90%. Your telling me the people giving you those tags should get any less than half the tags for your land? I say how about NO, and further more we should just do away with CWMU's they are a joke!
 
Have you ever looked at the map of deseret? There is so much public land that is land locked. They were smart when they set that up.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-13 AT 08:54AM (MST)[p]I don't even know why I feel the need to explain this but....

Once again guys I'm amazed at the lack of thought given to some folks comments, perhaps that is likely directly related to their education about the program or their education in general.

Here's what you all need to consider.... And please don't tell me we would never do it, I've run the numbers, its more of a money maker for us doing it this way....IF it was all about the money.

Just so everyone knows, DLL has considered dropping out of an elk CWMU all together. For those you who would just like to 'take our tags away', must not know ALL of DLL is in a general season elk/over the counter tags hunting unit. Currently there are 3 seasons to hunt elk in general season units. One is right during the rut (archery), other is tail end of the rut (rifle), and the last one is late season muzzleloader (nearly 60 days of hunting which is what we have now). I promise you we still have lots of elk on DLL during all 3 of these seasons. We could harvest all the bulls we want and then some during these 3 seasons. WE could completely exclude the public from hunting DLL all together. WE could get over 200 cow elk vouchers (under current rule from UDWR) as mitigation/depredation for feeding over 2000 of the public's elk which we COULD turn around and sell for 1-1.5k. If it was just about the money gents, there are other ways to generate more that have been considered.

The reasons for going to a 90/10 elk split were two things. 1--So that I could include 3 key (from a deer winter range standpoint, which if they wanted too could get rid of key habitat and a lot of your deer and elk) landowners they wanted/needed a few bull tags for their current leases or for them personally. 2--I didn't think there was a need for DLL to have any cow tags so all the cow tags now go to the public instead of us 40-50 to sale, or as we have done in the past give away. I felt like it was a win win for the public's wildlife to include these lands.

You all have a Great Christmas....

Todd
 
Todd,
Thank you for the detailed reply. I don't mean to stir the CWMU pot, but I'm always concerned when I see public opportunity reduced. It's nice that the public will get more cow elk tags, but those bull tags are far more important to us. Making the land owners happy is important, but I don't beleive the split ratio needed to change to accomplish that. Give the landowners what they need and take 3-4 of the 80+ private tags and swing them over to the public pool to meet the 85:15 ratio. That way we keep the odds of drawing a permit about the same and keep everybody happy.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks,

Matt
 
Not trying to step on your toes but think of it like this, you would still get the cow elk tags, and doe tags. I am not disputing that, you would also get one deer tag per property owner at the discretion of the fish and game office for your area. I have not seen the cow tags go for 1 K but if your getting that much for them more power to you. I actually looked deeper into the whole thing after posting and one thing I would like to commend you on is it looks like Deseret CWMU has always given equal numbers of moose tags both private and public. That honestly makes me a lot less annoyed by the split. More or less my disgust with the CWMU programs is the fact that some get 2 private moose tags, and give 1 public or they get 1 private moose tag and give 0 public tags. On a OIL tag you should never give opportunity like that unless you are alternating yearly to give equal opportunity. I also will say that as far as the fish and game is concerned the Deseret CWMU is a limited entry because it is a CWMU. Anyways after I posted I did look at the other species splits and it made me want to delete my post. The only reason I did not delete it was due to me feeling everyone has a right to see what I had said.
 
HJB,
Are you saying that big bulls are more important than opportunity? Are you saying overall the public would rather have a chance at 5 bulls over gaining 50 cow tags?
 
It really depends on how you look at it. Cow tags are available just about anywhere and you can even take a cow on several general areas with little effort. Tags are easy to draw as well.

Bulls are totally different. Many people spend a lifetime trying to harvest a mature bull elk, and most fail. Getting a permit to hunt bull elk and having a decent chance at killing one is very hard in this state. That is why I say that the bull tags are probably more important to us.

You have people waiting for over 15 years to hunt DLL for a bull elk. There are just not very many opportunities for hunting a mature bull elk in this state. We want to hold on to as many tags as we can get.

I don't want to see ANY opportunity lost, but I think lowering the bull tags and upping the cow tags is not the fairest thing to do to the public guys.
 
HJB,
I understand what you are saying. However it seems everytime I turn around I hear screaming about opportunity over quality. In this case it seems that is exactly the trade off DLL is offering. Makes me believe that quality really is a bigger factor than many are will to admitt. As far as DLL I truly believe Todd does a great job balancing what benifits all involved.
 
If you hate the CWMU program, that is one thing. But people need to really think about what they are complaining about in this specific case. As talked about above, DL&L could still operate their hunting programs with entirely paid hunters and shut the public out of the equation entirely. Is that what we would prefer? There are those complaining about the reduction in bull elk tags by 4 total. There are still 66 buck/bull tags going to the public for various species in 2014 (according to the new guidebook). There were also 325 antlerless between elk and pronghorn issued for this year(according to 2013 guidebook). I'm not sure if they do any public tags for anything else as I didn't take the time to look that up for this response. The public lost 4 tags, I get that. But in reality they could lose close to 400 tags if you wanted to get rid of the CWMU program up there.

We hunters really aren't the sharpest bunch at times. We are constantly cutting off our noses to spite our faces. Be annoyed about the 4 tags if you want, but at least do it while understanding the alternative would be FAR worse for public opportunity. Like I said before, as a public hunter only, and one that has personally seen how Deseret operates, this CWMU does it right. The public benefits greatly from this program up there.
 
I support the CWMU program, specifically on Deseret. As previously mentioned, they do a decent job supporting public hunters. The entire premise of this thread is wrong. The "new" ratio is NOT 90:10, but 86:14 as stated. Piss and moan all you want, and you will kill the golden goose for public hunters. A landowner the size of Deseret has plenty of options.

I think this whole thread smells more like a personal attack, than any real issue, and relies on the ignorance of some on this board to fuel the fire.
We should all have more important issues to worry about....
Bill
 
"It's nice that the public will get more cow elk tags, but those bull tags are far more important to us."

Thanks for speaking up for "us" hunters. Sheesh, horrible comment.

Here's my question, if you were so fortunate to own a chunk of land, how would you manage public access? Be honest...This should be good.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-13 AT 09:50PM (MST)[p]it is actually a 88 to 12 split once you take out the 5 elk permits for the 14700 acres of public ground included in the CWMU. anyone notice the 80 plus day season. it is all about the money IMHO no matter how much you try and pretend it is not. MOST of the CWMU's take opportunity away from the general public. Deseret is one of the few exceptions. even it is all about the money....don't try and tell me different. the only real opportunity they have created in COW tags. thanks...

ADD the 14 days of the archery they will have 95 days to hunt, about 45 more total days than the public.

Here is what the public gets about 50 days, not even close to the 60 that was previously mentioned. so they (deseret)will hunt Bull elk with a rifle for 80 plus days. General public 14.

public
General archery any
bull elk
Aug. 16?Sept. 12
General spike and any
bull elk
Oct. 4?16
General muzzleloader
elk
Oct. 29?Nov. 6

Deseret
ELK 89 17 9/01-11/20/2014 90:10

Compensation for inclusion of public land - 6 deer, 5 elk, 2 buck
pronghorn and 3 doe pronghorn.Requested bull elk variance to
11/20,division agrees.
 
Blanding Boy,
I have a few questions....

This year the CWMU program is up for legislative review if I am not mistaken. I am wondering if you know the approx date?
Was the public involved with establishing the rules of the CWMU?
How much does it cost to purchase a bull elk tag on DLL?
How many bull elk tags does DLL receive from UDWR?
Does DLL allow full access to the ENTIRE property if you draw out?
Do all CWMU operators allow access to their entire property?
If not, what do you think about limited access?
How many hunters on DLL in an average year hunt with a bow? Rifle? muzzleloader?

In your recent showing on KSL with Adam Eakle, you mentioned that both the public and landowners have interests in this program. The public owns the elk and landowners own the property. I agree with this statement. There has to be a balance. So...
Have you ever heard of...
YOU POUR... I CHOOSE?!?
It seems to me the landowners poured the glass and then choose which glass they wanted! Does that seem fair?

The public had these dates in '13 to hunt.
Aug 17-Sept 13
Oct 5-17
Oct 30-Nov 7
Not sure those dates = 60 days?? More like 49
CWMU OPERATORS actually had Aug 17-Oct 31. That equals 76 days if you are counting.

Which elk tags are more coveted? Bull or cow tags?
Most cow tags by my estimate, and I could be wrong, can be had for less than 3 points.
Most LE bull elk tags can be had for somewhere between 10 and 19 points.
With these objective numbers, we can assume LE BULL elk tags more coveted.

So the CWMU OPERATORS are giving us 10% of the most desirable tags and 100% of the less desirable tags? You pour, I choose? How would the landowners feel if tag numbers were reversed?

Now I have heard your point about landowners selling their land and wildlife habitat being lost. I agree and we need to address this concern. But not at the cost we as the public are paying now.

I have told you before of my experience of land that once was private and now is a CWMU. We used to gain access for elk and deer for a $1000. We had assess to the whole piece of property. Now the land is a CWMU and they want 3500$ a piece. $7000 total. We lost a great piece of land access.

You mentioned in your post, one of your motivations was to gain more bull tags for the landowners of the new land you are acquiring to be a part of DLL. Did I understand that correct? II think this was THE motivating factor. Hell, I would throw my land into DLL if it gain me access to the ranch and a few tags every year.

The CWMU program has been a good program at times and at other times has been a little controversial. I think both sides public/landowners see things from there own eyes and don't see the other side. I believe in your CWMU meeting last year, you mentioned to the landowners that they need to do a better job educating the public on the benefits of the program. I hope equally the public educates the landowners on their position.

I agree the answer is not to strip the landowners of the tags and lose the program. They provide a valuable resource. They have a lot invested. But we need to come up with a better, well defined program that serves both entities
 
After looking at the bigger issues, that Deseret takes care of I would agree that it was more a jab at them. When I look at the OIL permits that is what ticks me off, and Deseret does 100% better than the other CWMU in regards to OIL opportunity for public hunters.
 
SWAGshootn good luck getting a straight answer out of Todd. you will most likely get a stern lesson on how we owe the CWMU's for saving our herds out of the goodness of there hearts and that money does not matter. smoke and mirrors. slight of hand. tell you to research it and get back with him...might even get a threat of two when he gets frustrated that you don't drink the koolaid and agree with him and go quietly and stick your head in the sand...good luck

How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
CWMU Hunting opportunities,......when a hunter applies for any CWMU hunt. They should already know, you will be at the operators mercy for, when you get to hunt, where you get to hunt, how long you get to hunt. If you cant live with this kind of rules. Avoid the problem all togeather, dont apply for their hunts. Any hunters that has been in Utah for any amount of time should already fully understand, hunting any big game animal in this state is a money opportunity for someone. Outfitters, or CWMU operators, or conservation groups (selling tags). Live with this situation, or find a new hobbie....
 
CWMU s are risky, I know of one that according to the odds, points I have ,I could draw. But over the 5 or 6 months I have left 6 messages, called at least 25 times giving them the benefit of the doubt. I couldnt waste 15 points on something like that.
 
Public draw bull hunters are treated exactly like the guy that pays 15-20k for the tag. At least my dad was when he drew it a few years ago. He had the option to stay in their lodge for a multi-day hunt, just like the high dollar guys. He had a guide, just like the high dollar guys. As far as I know they had access to the whole property, not that you could hunt it all. The first day he hunted I understand they had him on a huge bull that any high dollar hunter would have been happy with that needed to take two more steps to provide a shot. He never took those steps. His health was poor and they bent over backwards on letting him come up at a later time to finish the hunt. They even provided two guides the next time to help him harvest his dream bull, a mature 6x6 that met every expectation he had for the hunt.

This is just our experience. Others may have had different experience there, but I doubt it. I don't even know Blanding Boy, so not trying to jump to his defense. Just trying to spread the truth as I think many jump to conclusions without actually understanding how it works. Again, Deseret is a CWMU that does it right as far as I'm concerned. And again, I guess if some of you want, Deseret could pull out and just cut us off completely. That would be great, huh?
 
Ive heard Deseret treats the public hunter awesome, Im sure so good that the loss of 4 tags might make someone bugged.It takes quite a few points to be guaranteed a tag there.
 
It ain't cheap to run them herding choppers before the hunts! Thats why there are plenty of elk over there during the hunts! Whatever the DLL needs to do to manage the public animals, they're gonna do.
 
I would wager that all the guys whining about CWMU's have never hunted on one, but they heard a story from their buddy's uncle about how horrible it was. I've had several CWMU tags in my life, and killed my best animals on those hunts. I will continue to apply for CWMU tags, and kill Bucks and Bulls with 2-7 points that would take 10-15 points to draw on a conventional LE unit.

Do your homework when applying for CWMU's, and you can have some really great hunts!


2a0fcsk.gif
 
unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

get rid of cwms, and yes I have hunted them more than once, the gen hunter will all ways come up short,( money talks,} those tags belong to all of us,,,,,10% what a joke,,,,,
 
>If you hate the CWMU program,
>that is one thing.
>But people need to really
>think about what they are
>complaining about in this specific
>case. As talked about
>above, DL&L could still operate
>their hunting programs with entirely
>paid hunters and shut the
>public out of the equation
>entirely. Is that what
>we would prefer? There
>are those complaining about the
>reduction in bull elk tags
>by 4 total. There
>are still 66 buck/bull tags
>going to the public for
>various species in 2014 (according
>to the new guidebook). There
>were also 325 antlerless between
>elk and pronghorn issued for
>this year(according to 2013 guidebook).
> I'm not sure if
>they do any public tags
>for anything else as I
>didn't take the time to
>look that up for this
>response. The public lost
>4 tags, I get that.
> But in reality they
>could lose close to 400
>tags if you wanted to
>get rid of the CWMU
>program up there.
>
>We hunters really aren't the sharpest
>bunch at times. We
>are constantly cutting off our
>noses to spite our faces.
> Be annoyed about the
>4 tags if you want,
>but at least do it
>while understanding the alternative would
>be FAR worse for public
>opportunity. Like I said
>before, as a public hunter
>only, and one that has
>personally seen how Deseret operates,
>this CWMU does it right.
> The public benefits greatly
>from this program up there.

Deseret does a great job and has been the cornerstone of the CWMU program. They provide a huge percentage of the public tags in the program. You are correct 4 tags is not a huge deal when you look at the big picture. However, 4 tags this year and 4 tags next year and so on will be the demise of the public elk hunt on Deseret. Those tags are worth $10,000-$15,000 a piece and to the public they are worth 15 years of applying for a dream hunting opportunity. This reduction will cause several of those guys to wait even longer.

If we do not show our concern for the opportunities we have, we can lose them very easily as seen in this case.

This post was not intended as a personal slam on Todd or Deseret. Deseret is a great place and I truly believe that Todd is trying to manage the place in a way that supports the animals and division objectives.

The post was simply a vocal concern and warning to the public that some of our opportunity is being lost. I would urge everyone to get involved with the RACs and board meetings to express concerns.

I also want to apologize for saying that bull tags are more important than cow tags. That was my personal opinion and I should not have used the word "WE" in my post.

Thanks,

Matt
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

The way I understand it, if we do away with CWMUs the only way to hunt those properties is to TRESPASS. And, 10% is better than 0%. Let's get involved in the process and see if the program can be improved.
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

>get rid of cwms, and yes
> I have hunted
>them more than once, the
>gen hunter will all
>ways come up short,(
>money talks,} those tags belong
>to all of us,,,,,10% what
>a joke,,,,,


As I said....we regularly cut off our noses to spite our faces. We hunters...not the sharpest bunch of folk.
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

getting rid of cwmu will not give public more opportunity. It will take it away. But some people can't comprehend why. Duh.....
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

It would be cheaper to buy a trespass permit, W/out cwmu,s whos going pay 5Gs to hunt the end of Oct?
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

drybutt, would you let some one hunt your place for free if you could get money ? that's all cwmus have done, duh,,,,,how much do you make off cwmus? the game belongs to all of us,,,and that's a fact jack,,,,
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

I don't make a dime of CWMUs and that's far from the point. Even decent property in general seasons are leased up or require a fee to hunt. Fact is the days of free hunting on private are long gone. I hunted most my life on my uncles place. Well guess what, he now charges 1500 to hunt General season deer because he can get it. If you think shutting down CWMUs will help the public you are smoking pot! They might not be able to charge as much for a rifle rut hunt, but they'll still get their money. And if I was the landowner I'd do the same thing. Can't blame them for making a buck off their land.
So go ahead and shut down the program. Deseret will then sell 200 guided bull hunts instead of the 80 something they now have. Because they could kill as many as they want, And not a damn one of them will go to the public, unless that public guy spends 10grand. It's not rocket science
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

>I don't make a dime of
>CWMUs and that's far from
>the point. Even decent
>property in general seasons are
>leased up or require a
>fee to hunt.
>Fact is the days of
>free hunting on private are
>long gone. I
>hunted most my life on
>my uncles place.
>Well guess what,
>he now charges 1500 to
>hunt General season deer because
>he can get it.
>
> If you think shutting
>down CWMUs will help the
>public you are smoking pot!
> They might not be
>able to charge as much
>for a rifle rut hunt,
> but they'll still
>get their money.
>And if I was the
>landowner I'd do the same
>thing. Can't blame
>them for making a buck
>off their land.
>So go ahead and shut down
>the program. Deseret will
>then sell 200 guided bull
> hunts instead of the
>80 something they now have.
>Because they could kill as
>many as they want,
> And not a damn
>one of them will go
>to the public, unless
>that public guy spends 10grand.
> It's not rocket science
>
>
>

BINGO!!

avatar-1.png
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

Ya, take them out of the CWMU program and give us back our fing thousands and thousands of acres of PUBLIC LANDS!!!!!


Go cry a river Todd.... You are the scum of the hunting industry.

I guarantee the thousands of acres of public lands could easily support 20 public hunters. We don't need to gravel to Deseret or any CWMU. Go sell your tags.. Go sell your soul for a fing deer or elk.
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

+1 257Tony......

Nothing but positives when one of my family members has drawn on a CWMU.

Robb
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

Why are all of these awesome cwmu s a secret? Lets hear about some? I never got any pm's. But apparantly there is great animals,it only takes 2 to7 tags to draw em.
 
there are very few CWMU's who have increased opportunity other than cow tags. CWMU's have taken away FAR more than they give back.
example: grouse creek elk CWMU 50-50 public/private. each get 2 tags...fair? well they took 23,040 public acres that could be hunted on the spike hunt. from my experience the elk spend most of the hunt on public ground, so the public get 5 days to hunt elk on public ground and the private guys get 60.

Double cone includes 4300 plus public acres, same deal loss of opportunity for spike hunters, basically these 2 operators NEED the public acres to allow them in the program

MOST of the CWMU's in western Box elder county WERE open to trespass for a fee or lease and a few for the asking.
so don't tell me it has increased anything.
 
Sorry guys, I am not going to tell the whole world which units I hunt and apply for, that just makes it harder for me and mine to get drawn. You are going to have to do the leg work yourselves.

Ok, I will divulge one secret unit that is little know for it's quality of animals and operators, it's called Deseret, it's up by the Wyoming border....


2a0fcsk.gif
 
14700 is the public acreage amount, it looks like it its what under 10% public on this CWMU. Plus they are not like say SJ Ranch that gets one Moose tag, and doesn't give the public one. That my friend is a crock when the public looses a OIL permit due to a CWMU.
 
Yeah, I didnt expect te hear anything. Legwork? What else do u do besides ask people what ones are good or try and call the operator? Im not going to drive out to glass someones place to see whats in there.
 
Deseret has really thought about leaving the elk CWMU program? I'm gonna have to call your bluff on that one. There is no way you could pack all those bull elk hunters into a 14 day hunt and still get the big money out of them. The long rifle season is like gold for CWMUs and they know it. There are plenty of us that remember the days of paying reasonable trespass fees to hunt private land. CWMUs wrecked that. They take much more than they give back - if it was not so you'd actually see people dropping out of the program.
 
I grew up hunting deer on public land, I could hunt with my bow, muzzleloader and rifle every year. I could harvest more than one buck each year. Then the deer population began to drop and wouldn't you know it the DWR took away my ability to hunt with all three weapons. I had to choose to hunt with only one weapon each year but, I could still hunt deer. Then we had some bad winters and wouldn't you know it the DWR said we have too many hunters and killing too many deer. We need to reduce the number of hunters so more bucks will survive to help maintain and hopefully increase our deer populations.

During this time I joined a hunting club and was able to hunt some private ground. Sure it cost me more money but I was able to enjoy some pretty good hunting. I stayed with this hunting club for quit a few years until the annual dues increased to a point I just couldn't afford it along with my growing young family. Not long after I dropped my membership the PHU program started. I saw this as an opportunity to be able to hunt again on some private ground without having to pay the significant amount the land owners or outfitters had already started to charge to hunt the private ground. I drew a couple permits on some PHU's and then the PHU's converted to the now CWMU program. I have drawn a few more permits on these CWMU's and personally I have had some great experiences.

Some on here argue that the public has lost opportunity because of the CWMU program. I argue that the CWMU program has helped to provide opportunity (for those who are willing to apply) for the public to hunt private lands.

We the public began loosing hunting opportunities many years ago as I referenced above. The private lands we used to hunt with a small trespass fee was already going the way of the high dollar hunter who could afford to hunt prime private property. Land owners are going to figure out the best way to provide an income for their families. They know the value of hunting big game on their property and they will charge whatever fee someone would be willing to pay. The CWMU's are not the problem, it started many years before this program ever started.

My opinion is; if you do away with the CWMU program, you would not get any public access to any of those former private lands without paying the current going rates (why would the landowners suddenly reduce their trespass fees if there is still someone out there willing to pay the going rate?). You then have lost the 10% public access permits for bucks and bulls and the majority of the antlerless permits offered by the CWMUs.

If you owned enough land to be part of the CWMU program what would you do with your land. Would join up and become a CWMU and the benefits the program offers? Keep it to yourself? Sell trespass permits for $100? Sell trespass permits for $3000 to $15000 if someone was willing to pay that much? Would you put it in the Walk in Access program and allow anyone to hunt your land for free? Sell it to a developer and turn it into mini-ranches and then no one could hunt on it? Think about it, those are some of the options any landowner has.

Smokepole
 
El_Matador...good point. Todd seems to be a good manager for Deseret. I don't know all the details however I do know that CWMU's are a general tag holders worst nightmare. I do like the ability to hunt ground I normally would not be able to however this comes at a steep price. I had one experience last year where we were on a LE archery elk hunt on north end of Utah and a CWMU operator was shooting his rifle towards a herd of elk herding them onto his ground. How can he do this you ask? COW depredation/mitigation tags....total BS! Why does he do this you ask? The almighty dollar. The two bulls he pushed were worth $32000 to him. He sells the tag for $16k. This wasn't the first time I had experienced this and certainly wont be the last. I do believe there are good operators and bad operators however the bad ones sure cause one hell of a black eye. 2 years ago I said what the hell and put my wife in for a CWMU for a cow and it was a JOKE! We were given access to a very small property for one day. I did let the state know...I wasn't the only one that had.


To sum it all up there are lots of problems with UDWR and this certainly is one of them.

"I'll see you all this coming fall in the Big Rock Candy Mountains!"

 
So let me get this straight. If I have a cwmu, I sell elk tags, make money off of the elk, I can also get depredation/mitigation tags for the same elk that are making me money to have in the first place?
 
If you cannot beat them join them - if they have it so good get out there use some of your hard earned money to buy some land and get in on this great deal. If you want more opportunity do what you need to do to buy some land and get in on this great opportunity. Even better once you own the land you can open it up to public hunting for free, as you no doubt would do.

If you really want it bad enough you can make it happen, you just have to make choices - no more $40,000 pick ups, sell the McMansion, save money, etc. You might have to find some like minded people and go in together.

Probably easier to just complain. My dad complains about how easy farmers in Iowa have it all the time and my standard response is buy some land and get in on the deal if it is that great. He has yet to do it but I have - I had to give up some things, I have put a ton of sweat and additional money into the land, and it has been a pretty good deal. When I can save enough I am going to buy some more.
 
So many of you guys crack me up.....

I would love to be in business with all of you who think CWMUs are the cats meow.

As business partners, we come to the table with equal value, create a business together and I'll give you 10% of the profits. I might even be generous and give you 12%.

And you of course will be grateful for just the opportunity to have your name mentioned with mine.

What ever happened to standing up for what is right???

"laughing all the way to the bank!"
 
I don't think CWMU's are the cat's meow. I just have personal experience on Deseret and wanted the truth to be told, not the usual BS that you hear about CWMU's.

Like I said many days ago, you can hate the CWMU program, and that's fine. But out of the CAMU's, Deseret treats the public hunter right. Other CWMU's I can't speak for as I haven't hunted them to know personally how they operate. I think it would be a total shame to lose the opportunity provided by an outfit like Deseret, because it is not like the public would all the sudden get to hunt those 200k+ acres if the program ended.
 
Having worked for a CWMU, I can say that public hunters are not always treated right. The operator generally is concerned with pampering the paid clients since that is where the money and future business comes from. With that being said, I have drawn two CWMU tags over the past few years and I have had great experiences and the operators were fantastic to work with. (Deseret and Ensign)

Every year there are great bucks and bulls posted here on MM by individuals that only hunt public land with OTC tags. These people understand the quote that says, "the only time success comes before work is in the dictionary." My hats off to them and I think some of us could take a few notes from them since they are generally off hunting instead of complaining.
 
Money talks....and the Peasants are forced to walk!!! Money and "How to make More Money"...has been the driving force and decision maker behind Utah big game hunting now for at least the last ten years here in Utah. Accept this....and you will sleep better at night!!! The "Rich" have always got what they wanted thru out history...other than the "French Revolution" when the "Rich" all got their "heads cut off" for running their Society into the ground and pushing the Peasants, past the breaking point.
 
Todd, how about you answer these questions from a previous post

Blanding Boy,
I have a few questions....

This year the CWMU program is up for legislative review if I am not mistaken. I am wondering if you know the approx date?
Was the public involved with establishing the rules of the CWMU?
How much does it cost to purchase a bull elk tag on DLL?
How many bull elk tags does DLL receive from UDWR?
Does DLL allow full access to the ENTIRE property if you draw out?
Do all CWMU operators allow access to their entire property?
If not, what do you think about limited access?
How many hunters on DLL in an average year hunt with a bow? Rifle? muzzleloader?

In your recent showing on KSL with Adam Eakle, you mentioned that both the public and landowners have interests in this program. The public owns the elk and landowners own the property. I agree with this statement. There has to be a balance. So...
Have you ever heard of...
YOU POUR... I CHOOSE?!?
It seems to me the landowners poured the glass and then choose which glass they wanted! Does that seem fair?

The public had these dates in '13 to hunt.
Aug 17-Sept 13
Oct 5-17
Oct 30-Nov 7
Not sure those dates = 60 days?? More like 49
CWMU OPERATORS actually had Aug 17-Oct 31. That equals 76 days if you are counting.

Which elk tags are more coveted? Bull or cow tags?
Most cow tags by my estimate, and I could be wrong, can be had for less than 3 points.
Most LE bull elk tags can be had for somewhere between 10 and 19 points.
With these objective numbers, we can assume LE BULL elk tags more coveted.

So the CWMU OPERATORS are giving us 10% of the most desirable tags and 100% of the less desirable tags? You pour, I choose? How would the landowners feel if tag numbers were reversed?

Now I have heard your point about landowners selling their land and wildlife habitat being lost. I agree and we need to address this concern. But not at the cost we as the public are paying now.

I have told you before of my experience of land that once was private and now is a CWMU. We used to gain access for elk and deer for a $1000. We had assess to the whole piece of property. Now the land is a CWMU and they want 3500$ a piece. $7000 total. We lost a great piece of land access.

You mentioned in your post, one of your motivations was to gain more bull tags for the landowners of the new land you are acquiring to be a part of DLL. Did I understand that correct? II think this was THE motivating factor. Hell, I would throw my land into DLL if it gain me access to the ranch and a few tags every year.

The CWMU program has been a good program at times and at other times has been a little controversial. I think both sides public/landowners see things from there own eyes and don't see the other side. I believe in your CWMU meeting last year, you mentioned to the landowners that they need to do a better job educating the public on the benefits of the program. I hope equally the public educates the landowners on their position.

I agree the answer is not to strip the landowners of the tags and lose the program. They provide a valuable resource. They have a lot invested. But we need to come up with a better, well defined program that serves both entities


How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
even though I feel deseret is one of the only CWMU's who have any value, if all this fuss bothers you Todd, pull your property out of the program and slum it like the rest of us. so instead of deseret being a sanctuary during the hunts all those hunters you will have to jam in their during the hunt might just keep the elk stirred up enough to push the ones you herded, and the others public pressure sent into the ranch to return to public ground.

it is actually a 88 to 12 split once you take out the 5 elk permits for the 14700 acres of public ground included in the CWMU. anyone notice the 80 plus day season. it is all about the money IMHO no matter how much you try and pretend it is not. MOST of the CWMU's take opportunity away from the general public. Deseret is one of the few exceptions. even it is all about the money....don't try and tell me different. the only real opportunity they have created in COW tags. thanks...

ADD the 14 days of the archery they will have 95 days to hunt, about 45 more total days than the public.

Here is what the public gets about 50 days, not even close to the 60 that was previously mentioned. so they (deseret)will hunt Bull elk with a rifle for 80 plus days. General public 14.

public
General archery any
bull elk
Aug. 16?Sept. 12
General spike and any
bull elk
Oct. 4?16
General muzzleloader
elk
Oct. 29?Nov. 6

Deseret
ELK 89 17 9/01-11/20/2014 90:10

Compensation for inclusion of public land - 6 deer, 5 elk, 2 buck
pronghorn and 3 doe pronghorn.Requested bull elk variance to
11/20,division agrees.
 
Todd, i am anticipating your normal threats and insults in a email. maybe this time you will try and follow thru on your threat of "breaking me up" if i don't stop posting my thoughts on the CWMU program.

How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-13 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]Tree--

I would expect nothing less from you than to 'post your thoughts'--they are yours, your welcome to them, I can respect that.

This just gets old sorry, kind of like beating your head on a brick wall all you want to do is whine and complain. It just gets old man---you don't have to search many of the post about CWMUs to see you jump right in and say the same thing over and over and over--what else do you have that is creative, original, productive, and educated to say that you have not already said or posted.

Bottom line is this... You are bitter and closed minded about the CWMU program, you don't want comprise or solutions you just want to hunt where ever you want too. Some one came in and gave more money to the landowner that you were willing to pay as you had done in the past and you lost it. You bitxh and bitxh without providing solutions to YOUR problems. You are a perfect example of someone with social values, it's got to be your way or your not happy, satisfied, or content, I'm surprised you haven't filed a lawsuit and taken this to court yet. Instead of being willing to get involved, provide intelligent, educated conversations, compromise, ITS ALWAYS been how someone has peed in your soup and now all you can do is whimper and wine like a little girl whose lost her kitty.

Here's to hoping you will come up and introduce yourself to me someday, maybe even to all of us on Monstermuleys instead of hiding behind a blocked profile. Being honest about who you are instead of using multiple mm names to post from. You're likely a good dude but its hard to get to know someone and have respect for them if they aren't man enough to man up.

All the best...Happy new year.

I'm done with this thread....
Todd
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-13 AT 04:08PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-13 AT 02:05?PM (MST)

Yet again somebody asks you a question and you do not answer them. smoke and mirrors, slight of hand....blah blah

I do not have a closed mind about your cash cow, commonly called the CWMU program. I feel it has its place. my feeling have nothing to do with an operator paying more money for my lease, they over a period of years under handed my dealing with the owner, lied, cheated. bad mouthed us and when he took ill, almost on his dead bed talked his daughter into giving them the lease. for less money. so that is why I dislike the program in general. it has reduced opportunity for UTAH buck/bull hunters. definitely increased for the high paying NON-RESIDENT hunters who pay to play. you are a part of that cheating crowd if only by your inclusion in the program and defending them.

your cash cow cost my family and friends and most importantly ALOT of KIDS a place to hunt. for every 1 trespass permit we sold to help pay the lease 3-4 kids were allowed to hunt for FREE, friends of friends, trucks we stopped on the county road who had kids or newbies. most years KIDS took more deer than any adult. so there YOUR program COST the PUBLIC opportunity. it was not a money maker or business. the landowner felt it was not right to profit from the states wildlife. when the CWMU operator took the property it added 20 tags to his quota @ 4000 a hunt that's 80,000 dollars. that's well over 70,000 more than we paid. but you guys do it for the love of the animals and to preserve nature...blah blah

and as far as coming and meeting you??? you have had multiple chance to meet me and show me the error's in my ways. but chose to send threatening emails instead...

How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
Tree asked alot of valid questions.I was looking forward to hearing some of the answers also.
 
Well, at least we now know why tree feels the way he does. It's not just about the public, it's personal. Which is okay. I was mad at United Sportsman for years (still kind of am...) for sweeping a chunk of private land we had almost exclusive access to when I was a kid. Never did get to hunt it with tag in hand myself. Sticks in my craw a bit, but it is what it is. We just need to know how much of a grain of salt to take when reading. Now we know.
 
Why does the general public feel like they are entitled to hunt someone's private lands?
I can say this and am part of the general public.
I get it, it's their lands and they can govern, sell hunts and manage it how ever they see fit.......period!




avatar-1.png
 
Slam dunk you sound very narrow minded. With out the public their would be no CWMU private tags. They would get antler less tags at best, or one deer or elk tag for being a private land owner. Therefore if they want to function both public and private hunters should be treated the same. By this let the public hunters hunt the same areas a private hunters, I have heard complaints from my Uncle Dan who is very involved in the Roan Cliffs that some land owners treat the public hunters like maggots. This should not be the case, however the public hunters should also not feel entitled it should be a even deal, the public and private get the same opportunity at all game on the property. Now I know part of the Roan Cliffs deal is the different owners take one public hunter for their piece of property and show them around, they want the public hunter to have a great hunt because they know that the public hunter is the one getting them their tags. Therefore it should be that way on all CWMU's RESPECT is a big part. Some people that do the CWMU's just want to money, I know money is always a big part but others are just stand up guys. I know the Roan Cliffs is ran by stand up people but not all CWMU's are, its like buying a car really. So do some research don't believe everything you hear and hunt hard, live long and happy :).
 
Deerslayer, I am fully aware of how the program works, I've been guiding on them for 20 years, including some in the Roan Cliffs area.
My point is simple, It just gets old hearing the public screaming at the landowners to open their gates because it's "their animals that are being pimped".
Deseret runs a well oiled machine up there, it's truly a model for what can be done with proper management, I've been on it for years. It didn't get where it's at just by chance.
Hey, I'm a general public hunter myself, but I have just learned to accept the fact that i wasn't handed a silver spoon and haven't inherited land or money to buy it. I'm stuck with what is available to me and I don't scoff at the one's who do.




avatar-1.png
 
Fair enough, and that makes more sense now that I know that extra info. My main concern is some of the things some CWMU's do is not right, but for the most part a lot of them do it right or at least try to. I feel that anyway you cut it the animals are going to be pimped out, it doesn't take the CWMU program for that to happen. Years before the program there were people putting up parcels as hunting leases. At least with the CWMU program we get to hunt without a extra free, the only thing I hate is when a CWMU gets a OIL tag and the public doesn't get one. In a case like that it should alternate yearly to keep the opportunity their.
 
So if this isn't a cash cow for the DLL why not do a 50/50 public/private tags deal every couple of years. It still removes the same amount of animals right. I can see the people with tons of points loving it.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
so now we are suggesting DLL make sacrifices simply to apeaze the public and do favors just for fun? I don't know any businesses that are in the business of losing money.......




avatar-1.png
 
RE: unRE: Deseret Elk Changes

if you think that they will not sell trespass tags your crazzy they will still make money but they will have to cater to the guys with the tags. I knew guys that hunted deseret every year before it was a cwmu for a lot less money.
 
>so now we are suggesting DLL
>make sacrifices simply to apeaze
>the public and do favors
>just for fun? I don't
>know any businesses that are
>in the business of losing
>money.......
>
>
>
>
>
avatar-1.png



Slam, I think deseret has run a great operation over the years and been the best example of a cwmu in the state. However, reducing public tags and increasing private tags does not fall in line with program objectives and goals. As a public/general hunter, you would have to agree with that. If deseret has a new goal of reducing public opportunity and increasing private hunters, the program is a lost cause. The public tags should never be sacrificed to appease landowners.
 
I think the CWMU program "could" be good for all. Landowners get to make some extra money,....espically if beef prices are down...Outfitters get to make money guiding hunters...public hunters get a opportunity to hunt on land they would never see. BUT!! I think CWMU's are giving a high ratio of tags, some very kind hunting dates, for the bread crumbs that is given to the public. Then throw on top of this, not all CWMU's treat State hunters with the same efforts as paid clinets. But, I guess one must be living in a dream world if you expect a state hunter to be treated the same as a client paying $5K for a Deer or $8K for a Elk. It's very simple"Money Corrupts"
 
That Take, Take, Take attitude is what will thing that kills the CWMU program, All I was saying is throw the public hunter a bone every few years and it will be a lot easier for them to stand and watch them use those tags for private hunters every year.

So how many tags have they ask for since the start of the CWMU. What was the number of tags the first year compared to this last year total. Same?


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
"But, I guess one must be living in a dream world if you expect a state hunter to be treated the same as a client paying $5K for a Deer or $8K for a Elk. It's very simple Money Corrupts."

I know this has become a larger discussion about the CWMU program in general, but the ironic thing about this thread is that it started about Deseret. And the interesting thing to me in reference to the quote above is that Deseret makes A LOT more than $5K on a deer tag and $8k on an elk tag. A LOT more. Yet they actually do treat the public hunter the same as the paid hunter. So no, it's not living in a dream world. It just needs to be a case where the CWMU that does it the right way, like the CWMU that this thread started out bashing. Deseret gets all the public shaming and the bad rap. But if all CWMU's operated like they did we wouldn't have the issues with CWMU's that we do.
 
>"But, I guess one must be
>living in a dream world
>if you expect a state
>hunter to be treated the
>same as a client paying
>$5K for a Deer or
>$8K for a Elk. It's
>very simple Money Corrupts."
>
>I know this has become a
>larger discussion about the CWMU
>program in general, but the
>ironic thing about this thread
>is that it started about
>Deseret. And the interesting
>thing to me in reference
>to the quote above is
>that Deseret makes A LOT
>more than $5K on a
>deer tag and $8k on
>an elk tag. A
>LOT more. Yet they
>actually do treat the public
>hunter the same as the
>paid hunter. So no,
>it's not living in a
>dream world. It just
>needs to be a case
>where the CWMU that does
>it the right way, like
>the CWMU that this thread
>started out bashing. Deseret
>gets all the public shaming
>and the bad rap.
>But if all CWMU's operated
>like they did we wouldn't
>have the issues with CWMU's
>that we do.


"Vanilla",.....I assume you can read and understand words of the English language. I did not bash Desert in any way....I know they charge more for their hunts,...my $$$ was a general price compared to other CWMU's. But, you would be up in the night if you think all CWMU operators treat state hunters the same as paid hunters. I know for a fact this is not true, I know this from old friends that were CWMU operators and friends that guided for them. I was told,....straight from a CWMU operators mouth about keeping state hunters away from certain parts of the Ranch that holds Big Bucks regulary,and certain specific "BIG BUCKS" on his Ranch, so high paying clients could harvest them....His exact words was,...."This state hunter hasnt done anything to deserve that Quality of a Buck!!" This post is not hear say,....rumor.....BS......it is "FACT" I personally think the CWMU program is a Good program,...but badly abused by some....that gives a black eye to Operators that treat hunters well, a bad rep. Like Deseret who is one of the best in the state. Its the 8.5-1, or 9-1 ratio of tags I think is unfair.
 
Now I could be mistaken on the CWMU deal, But I have always thought the Public hunter was to have the same chance/opportunity on the same land(all of the cwmu) as the paying client, That was one of the things they talked up to get program in. NOT if you draw a tag you(public hunter) only get to hunt the poor side of the CWMU as the public hunter and the higher paying client gets the good parts of the CWMU. This is one item that has to change and be enforced, that the public hunter gets the same chances/Opportunity on the CWMU as the other tag holders regardless of the money one brings in over the other.

I'm sure if they send in a few undercover DWR as public hunters and they could stop this type of deal from happening.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Anyone that is mistreated or has a bad experience should be filling out a report and sending it to the Private lands/Public wildlife coordinator. The issue will then be presented to the CWMU advisory Counsel for review and a hearing will be held with the plantiff and the CWMU oeprator. The Advisory counsel will present recommendations to the wildlife board for the final decision.

I can tell you that just about everyone that files a report get's some kind of closure on the issue and the CWMU in violation always gets at least probation or other punishment (if the complaint is valid). I can count on one hand the amount of complaints I have seen in the last few years.

If you had a bad experience, you need to report it. That is the only way to make a difference.

As I have said already, Deseret does a great job with their CWMU and management. However, I'm still upset that the decision was made to reduce public opportunity. This was a mistake in my personal opinion. If a few tags were needed to hand over to Landowners, they should have been taken from the pool of 80+ private tags.
 
>Now I could be mistaken on
>the CWMU deal, But I
>have always thought the Public
>hunter was to have the
>same chance/opportunity on the same
>land(all of the cwmu) as
>the paying client, That was
>one of the things they
>talked up to get program
>in. NOT if you draw
>a tag you(public hunter) only
>get to hunt the poor
>side of the CWMU as
>the public hunter and the
>higher paying client gets the
>good parts of the CWMU.
>This is one item that
>has to change and be
>enforced, that the public hunter
>gets the same chances/Opportunity on
>the CWMU as the other
>tag holders regardless of the
>money one brings in over
>the other.
>
>I'm sure if they send in
>a few undercover DWR as
>public hunters and they could
>stop this type of deal
>from happening.
>
>
>
>"I have found if you go
>the extra mile it's Never
>crowded".
>>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>>the MM green signature club.[font/]


Well said!!!
 
HJB
what kind of punishment was handed out to the operators, AND did the hunter get RE-HUNT the CWMU he had drew in the first place.

Was the punishment enough to stop them from doing it again.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
I know people have received their points back, and I have seen people get their money back as well. Most of the time the CWMU is put on probation. What this means is if they have another complaint while on probation, they could be removed from the program. There are a few on probation right now for not treating the public hunter the way they should.
 
>I know people have received their
>points back, and I have
>seen people get their money
>back as well. Most of
>the time the CWMU is
>put on probation. What this
>means is if they have
>another complaint while on probation,
>they could be removed from
>the program. There are a
>few on probation right now
>for not treating the public
>hunter the way they should.
>


I think many state hunters dont fully understand their rights on a CWMU. I think some that should file a complaint are frustrated and a little embarrased maybe even intemidated to do this. I think many just say F-it!!! I just wish the DWR, CWMU operators and state hunters would set down together and overhaul this process. Again the gracious hunt dates, and 8.5-1 or 9-1 private to public tag ratio is a bit laughable, even ridiclous......its "Bread Crumbs" to the public..... And a "Gold Mine/Free hall pass to operators!!! The DWR must be the first to take action on this issue....Operators wont, they have to much to loose, nothing to gain.
 
So A guy puts in for the draw and waits (HOW many years to draw) gets his money but, BUT not the hunt I hope they had to pay for all the year he put in too then.

As it was said before they sure do need a old fashion sitdown with all parties and get this thing hashed out so everyone is on the same page. The number 1# thing is days allow to scout and hunt and access to the whole CWMU.

Come on Todd be a Hero and get this passed for the Masses and they will be forever happy. LOL

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
I've never been on a CWMU that didn't allow the whole area to be hunted. I've seen a few with safety zones around houses, etc., but at least in theory the paying clients can't hunt there either. There are probably exceptions, but I have been on over 20 of them. File a complaint if this happens. Paying clients and public clients are REQUIRED to have access to the same portions of the CWMU.

The number of days you are allowed on is also set by the DWR. It is in the regs. You can hunt or scout, but you have a limited amount of time. So do most paying clients, BTW. Most paying clients come for a hunt of a specific duration, say 5 days, and they get guided during that time. Of course the guide has plenty of time to scout. The same is true on public land. Hire a guide if you want someone to do your scouting for you. I've never hired a guide on a CWMU, but some have offered their services for free. Most were helpful, others were worth what I paid.

Instead of belly-aching and complaining about vague mistreatment, file a report with the DWR when things go south. I have done it once, and it worked. A few other times I called the coordinator mid hunt, and got him in touch with the operator to sort out my problem. It usually works if you go to the effort.

Of course it is much easier to wait until the hunt is over, then complain you didn't get the quality of animal you hoped, and decide it was the operators fault. Sometimes it is, but most days that's hunting. I wouldn't want it any other way.

Bill
 
8mm,

Now I trust that YOU read and understand the English language, but you need to go re-read my response to you. Because I don't see where I said anything that you're suggesting I did when you flew off the handle at me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-14 AT 08:52PM (MST)[p]HJB, do you have some names, numbers of who I could call, file a complaint? I tried calling a guy off of the cwmuutahwildlife.org website, but weeks later have yet to hear back.
 
let me guess who that would be??? if your not a paying customer I doubt he will return your call.... but he does find time to send me nasty emails from time to time..lol



How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
If you have a complaint, call the DWR. That is the proper organization. Ask to speak to the CWMU coordinator.

Calling somebody from the CWMU association is about like calling the union office to complain about your boss at work. The group you mention is the lobbying arm for a group of CWMU operators. They don't control their members, and can't process a complaint. They have set standards for the members, and probably let their members know when someone is unhappy, but they have no power to effect a change. About the most they can do is suggest an operator contact you to try to work it out. But since you have already (hopefully) contacted the operator directly with your complaint, then why expect something more from going to his own industry group?

If you really expect action or think you have a real beef, talk to the DWR. That is the only group that may be able to give you satisfaction.

Bill
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-14
>AT 08:52?PM (MST)

>
>HJB, do you have some names,
>numbers of who I could
>call, file a complaint?
>I tried calling a guy
>off of the cwmuutahwildlife.org website,
>but weeks later have yet
>to hear back.


I'll send you a PM
 
Todd is the BEST used car salesman I have ever read. The CWMU program WASN'T set up by public sportsmen. IT WAS SET UP BY OUTFITTERS/GUIDES. Without the CWMU, Deseret could sell trespass permits until the cows come home BUT their clients would get to hunt the first 2 weeks of Oct., same as everyone else. The program was a way for outfitters/guides to get over 70 paying days with guaranteed tags yearly.

Before we were all saved by CWMUs we had groups like united sportsman, that were pretty much tresspass fee group. You paid a yearly fee, and if you got the tag you hunted the property. Not a big deal for elk, but deer are in a draw, do you think Mr. Deep pockets is gonna fork out without that guaranteed tag, and liberal seasons.

Todd, SALE THE LAND. Oh thats right you don't own it, the LDS church does, they pay virtually zero taxes on it and it is a HUGE money producer from wildife and domestics. Heres the hidden little truth, without the GUARANTEED tags they would compete with other saviors of wildlife(CWMU) to sell access to those who drew tags, which would mean that prices would go down, thats how FREE MARKET works. Come on TODD, put your money where your mouth is, get out of the CWMU program, SHOW US HOW DLL doesn't need it, GET OUT OF THE PROGRAM, COME ON, DO IT!! That threat is the single dumbest think I have read on Monster Mulies EVER(and unfortunately I read Tristates crap). Without CWMUs there is NOT ENOUGH PROFIT in wildlife for the church to cater to it, MEANING TODD IS OUT OF A JOB. Ever notice they tell us how we need them, they don't need us, yet they never leave, they keep trying to expand. TODD I AM CALLING YOUR BLUFF, 2015 DLL is no longer in the CWMU program, DO IT, DO IT!!



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 

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