What I want to know is How does this work?

P

Pahunter106

Guest
Hello,
If some of you have read my other posts then you already know that I thirst for the information that any man woman or child that lives out west probably already knows.
I am only from PA and have never hunted out west. I have never used the services of a guide nor do I know what or how to book a hunt. That being said, " will someone explain to me about the actual contractual process. Are they going to provide several different areas for you to hunt, and pick you up at the end of the day so you can eat back at the lodge or drop camp? Like they do in the Midwest? OR is this completely different with no road or highway access to hunting areas?

Do guides and hunters live in the same camp for the duration of the hunt?
How does the state get involved and determine how many animals should be harvested out of any one Wildlife management unit?
My actual screen name should have been PA Greenhorn, as I am wondering if because nobody is naming names about the "$11000.00 Father /son disaster", if there are many instances where money changed hands and promises were made and nothing was delivered. I would like to think that men will not allow other men to be taken advantage of without knowing that they were. So why is this other guy not divulging names?
Are contracts actually signed with statements in them promising big deer? The wording of the contract is the man's ( outfitter's) undoing. Court cases are simple if the outfitter was dumb enough to put it in the contract. However, if the outfitter was talking trash without having success prior to this season, it sounds as though, sadly, father and son were sold a pig in a poke.
Does only one outfitter have access to any given unit on a yearly basis? How does the state profit from these bids or units deer population other than in selling the tags, licensing the outfitters and managing the area for habitat?
Anybody can respond, and it would be great to hear any answers that I may not have asked enough questions about, since I am so new to this whole thing.

Thanks,
Scott
 
You sure sound like a Yankee. LOL. Brace yourself as others aren't nice like me.
References, references and lastly more references. Trust but varify. Lots more to it but this is were you start.


Ransom
 
>You sure sound like a Yankee.
>LOL. Brace yourself as others
>aren't nice like me.
>References, references and lastly more references.
>Trust but varify. Lots more
>to it but this is
>were you start.
>
>
>Ransom

Yankee,
Yes,but I live amongst the Amish, which is to say by virtue of this computer I am slightly more sophisticated than some around where I live. They are Dutchmen, horse drawn, unless they pay for a ride and all hunters, but with big families. I mean to tell you 14 children is not uncommon. Perhaps out there you have had examples of how some people mistreat their wives. You don't know the half of it. I won't go there, this is neither the time or the place and I actually like some of them. But they are not the storybook Amish, they are their poorer cousins, that live up north and to the west of the state.
I am a middle class guy that does a lot of hunting in these woods. Big woods. Some farms, and a whole lot of Summer hunting, in fields.
Here, there are three seasons that never close except on Sunday. Coyote, Crows and Prime Pennsylvania Pasture Poodles.
Good eating too. The last group, or so I am told. Every time I get close to one I have head shot from 3-400 yards, I find them way too disgusting to make it into the pot, and forget about it if you clip them in the body... They stink more on the inside then they do on the outside, which makes me want to puke. Out there, I suppose you have Prairie dogs. I am sure there are other vermin, that you are allowed to eradicate, but I don't know what they are.

Back to responding to your post. I have found a place in Colorado that will put me into some elk, and or Muleys for a very reasonable price. Circle K and they have references, but since they get to choose who you talk to and are only claiming a 55%-80% success rate, I am not sure that I have to worry so much. I do not get to speak to the 45%-20% of their references that lost luggage at the airport or that they screwed out of something, or were blamed for screwing them out of something. I am taking no sides here, since it was only a solicitation by mail. Nothing signed, nothing deposited on good faith.
I will call them, the references, when I get closer to having the money to give them a good faith deposit, or signing a contract.
You see here, it costs me practically nothing to hunt. I have money tied into equipment for bowhunting, and for rifles. I reload, I hunt not 15 minutes from where I live, I have friends I can call to help me track a deer that was shot, or help me drive for deer, as I know where they are, and have hunted them all my life. There are many magazines that I subscribe to that make the pursuit of whitetails fun and rewarding. I have never spent the money that that family spent for hunting. I hope that I get the opportunity, to have a son and go, or take my brother.
But we are strangers in a strange land, dealing in the legal and sane harvest of legally managed game animals. I want great stories to tell all my brethren when I get back, perhaps some meat to share with good friends and family, I don't want to go out there and get screwed for $11000.00 !! Because I get screwed for that, and what recourse do I have? It is like getting a traffic ticket, state fine and then a ticket in Wyoming for $1500.00 on your way back from Saskatchewan to hunt tropies there and living 7 states away. Can you afford to fight it in court? Nope, not unless you have family out there you can stay with or something...
Having the means to do something like hunting out west may be a once in a lifetime shot for me, and getting screwed, puts it right up there with opening up a liquor store in Syria, and Iran that employs nobody but homosexuals.

Won't make it a week, before someone burns it to the ground out of hatred, and an idea that they are serving GOD, so they can get revenge on those Bastard Americans for introducing Satan into their lives... If I cannot trust Americans that I live in the same country with, how can I leave the house in the morning to go to work? Shouldn't I be investing more money into my security system, with the lasers, and the guard dogs and the concertina wire.
OK, perhaps a little too extreme of an example. But you know, it is getting worse even in our own country.
Thanks for the responses.
A bientot,
Scott
 
You already picked the wrong guy! If an outfitter won't provide you with references from unsuccessful clients, he probably has an issue or two. I'd pass.

The whole idea is to provide a memorable hunting opportunity to the client, put him in an area with possible trophy animals and have some FUN. Even unsuccessful hunters should have had a possitive experience.

Not everyone is going to kill a trophy. Sometimes, no animals are taken, but if the guide is doing his job, you should of had a great hunt, some good outdoor adventure and made some new friends. That's how it is supposed to work.

Pay attention to this site and when you decide what and where you want to hunt, there will be plenty of people on here willing to steer you in the right direction.

References are your first option. Ask former clients if it was FUN. I would want no less than 6 references....out of state ones, so you cut the odds of calling the brother in law of the outfitter.

Decide what you are willing to invest, as it is sort of like going on a Love Boat cruise. If you are willing to help row the boat, so to speak, it's one rate. If you want livestock, wranglers, cooks, hot and cold running maids, it's another rate entirely. You can have whatever you are willing to pay for. Whatever you want....

One more thing, you probably need to rearm. I know you Yankees are big on those lever action pop guns, but we pretty much use the AT&T theory out West....you might want to "reach out and touch someone". LOL!
 
I will do what ever I can to make sure you don't deal with the same type of situation I did. PM me and we can discuss who I used. My Outfitter was in Utah not Colorado. I still have not been able to get in touch with the outfitter, but hope to soon. He knows what happened and he is not burning up our phone lines to make it right.
 
Get references. Both those who have taken an animal and those who have not. Call every reference.If the outfitter won't provide references don't book the hunt. A good outfitter should also have pics of animals from previous years hunts.

Even the dumbest outfitters would not put a guarentee of animal size in their contract. They may advertise that they have been 100% on 170 class or better bucks or 100% on 6 pt bulls but to guarentee 100% kill is just asking for litigation. I have seen where an outfitter will be as bold as to guarentee 100% shot oppurtunity.

Don't forget it is still a hunt and the shot comes down to the hunter.

Mike
 
Thanks guys,
As for my equipment... I am sure with the quantity of new firearms calibers that have come out in recent years you have heard of what I use. For Rifles: I have a .300 Win Mag in a Beretta MATO synthetic stock. For the glass for on top of that one, I have bought more scope than I have ever bought for any gun. A Burris 4- 16X 50 MM Black Diamond with Ballistic Mil-Dot. I shoot nothing with it except 100 yard flies. Yes, more than a tack driver, I can see and kill flies in the Summer that land on my target at 100 yards. I do reload premium ammunition for it. But since it takes so much powder, I prefer to load for my .22-250 Ruger Varmint rifle and shoot PA Groundhogs off of farms in the summer, at no less than 3-400 yards. My longest shot to date was 700 yards, and all I managed to do was scare the little bugger back into his hole. Missed him by 2 1/2 feet.

Anyway, from what I have read a .300 Win Mag is still a respectable caliber. I have built other guns from scratch, but since they are primarily for long range Antelope, or coyote, I doubt you are interested in them. I have an '06. Like I have stated on other posts here, I WAS primarily a rifle hunter, until two years ago. Because of the amount of hunting traffic that we get in this state, I have had to look for another way to enjoy the hunt, so my preacher got me into bowhunting. Every question that I had for him, he had other's for me concerning rifle ballistics, and reloading and etc. One of my other good friends and I go to a town up here in the mountains; ( Our mountains), and we shoot at distances no less than 200 yards out to 550 yards at an approved range. We shoot steel silhouettes about 3 times a year. We both reload and we cast our own bullets for this particular event. There is a target for fun that is the 1000 yard white buffalo out of steel, and it is huge. I have not been able to shoot and hit it, though I have shot at it several times with my '06. when I say several, I mean 65 times.
Given this trial, I would personally say that the '06 is not really a 1000 yard gun. It is probably more like a 6-700 yard gun. No matter, as the longest shot I would ever be comfy in taking is about 500 yards, with it and still expect a hit, and kill, given the wind. With the .300 WM, a lot more like 700 yards, but I would have to practice with it and the scope to see how well those little subtended reticles do with my reloads.


All of this is aside of why, and how I really would want to take my first elk or muley. I became a bowhunter to get away from the crowds and fell in love with the intimacy of the hunt, in a way that I never thought possible. I enjoy it, and I am not freezing my butt off, to get close to hunting legal and trophy animals that I never saw while I was rifle hunting. They are at ease, and I am at ease while I am hunting them. I have invested heavily in the past two years into my bowhunting rig and treestands, hunting apparel, etc. I am confident at a shot of 45 yards and can on a good day hold a 3 inch group pretty consistently.

For my first hunt, though I have considered going back to my rifle, to increase the chances of a shot opportunity, and ensure a clean kill. I have not harvested anything with the bow, or the .300 Win Mag, but if I were to go out there with either and came home with nothing but memories, I still would have a good time. I even thought about also getting a cow tag since they are so much cheaper, and at least I would have meat and stories and new found friends.

I can say after reading a lot of what was said about that disaster that cost $11000.00 Bucks, I want to know the name of that guide, and request him for my hunt next year. Anyone that feels as badly as that guy did, even given the circumstances, doesn't really have much more to prove to me. I appreciate your concern, and I thank you for your interest.
I just want to thank everyone that has gone out of their way to answer my stupid questions, and take time out of their busy schedules to give me more than just a two word answer, and make me feel as though this is a good place for me to learn what is what and what I should be looking for when I go to do this.

It is Friday night, and I will be working in my shop for this weekend, then I am going to Michigan for Thanksgiving at the beginning of next week. I won't have access to my computer for an entire week, so I am letting anyone know that will be why I have not answered them if you were to PM me after this weekend, or later on next week.
Have a good weekend, stay safe and enjoy the home that you have, the family that you share and thanks again for everything!
Scott
 
The success rate seems reasonable. More than that is some type of canned, or semi-canned hunt.

Of course, I know nothing about the outfitter; I've never hired an outfitter. However, you don't have to have an outfitter.

If I came to your part of the world, could you show me how/where to hunt there? I could do the same here.

PM if you'd like some information that could save you a chunk of change.
 
>The success rate seems reasonable.
>More than that is some
>type of canned, or semi-canned
>hunt.
>
>Of course, I know nothing about
>the outfitter; I've never hired
>an outfitter. However, you
>don't have to have an
>outfitter.
>
>If I came to your part
>of the world, could you
>show me how/where to hunt
>there? I could do
>the same here.
>
>PM if you'd like some information


Yes I could show you public ground and all you would have into it is the motel that you would be staying in and also the license at around $240.00 including Archery tag, if you were so inclined. Around here in PA, because of the density of our state forests, you could hunt there, or you could hunt where I hunt, which is neither state forest, nor public ground. It is one of the few places where, you can hunt fair chase and not pay someone a lease to have the right to hunt there. It is approximately 400 acres and it is primarily loaded with natural habitat and big bucks. Big is in our sense of the word. 8 point and better. 7 point is legal here but then you are only talking about a 2 year old. The biggest that roams this property is a 14 - 16 point. He is the ghost that everyone sees, but nobody has shot.

Once again I have told everyone that will read this post. PA deer are primarily nocturnal, and it does little good to hunt them with a bow, where you are not completely scent free. I could show you around, I could give you several places to hunt, so that you had some variety. But you have to come to terms with the fact that we have a lot of big hardwood trees here, that really make great vantage points for hunting, so bring a treestand. Or I could let you borrow mine.

How it works here is this way... You arise out of bed by, 0430 AM Eastern Standard Time, then you eat breakfast, make coffee, and shower with scent free soap and shampoo. Wearing clothing that you can change out of in the field, you load your bow and scent free cltohing into your truck, or my truck. Your scent free clothing should be prepared the night before by washing it in scent and UV brightener free detergent, then sealing it in a lastic airtight container, so that all of your prep work is not ruined by the regular scents you encounter when getting to bed the night before, if you ordered pizza, or had other odors, come into contact with your hunting clothes.
I leave the house and come pick you up, then we go to the woods not 10 minutes away, and we get into the woods, and hunt until 10:30 AM. After that, most of the deer are bedded down for the day and won't be up and around until about 4:00PM at the earliest, so you could go to town or go to the mall, until you wanted to be back in the woods by 3:30 PM until night fall. Have several small lights with you so that you can get out of the woods without breaking your neck, or falling out of a treestand, if you want to hunt that way. You can hunt from a ground blind, and not worry about it getting stolen, so if you are in a ground blind, that will keep your movements from alerting deer to your location, all the better.
Buy whitetail grunt tubes, and a rattle bag, or use real horns to simulate a pre-rut sparring match ! Don't use estrous doe urine, until a day or two before the rut, NOVEMBER 1ST TIL THE 15TH MOST YEARS. if at all!!! Dominant buck urine on a drag following you from the truck to the hunting spot is ok, anytime of the day, scrape juice, or scrape drips are ok, but I really don't recommend other stuff, but there are all sorts of opinions out there as to what is effective and what is not. Personally, I use BF-F gland by Hawg's Unlimited, and another one, I can't think of the name right now... They are both synthetic, and are the only one's that I know of that actually work.
Write me, at [email protected] if you really want to do this, I would love to go out with someone that knows what is going on, out west...
Thanks,
Sorry, that I did not answer you sooner.
Scott
 

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