Utah general season

bragabit

bragabit

Active Member
Messages
809
Has there been any decision on the Southern region rifle hunt? Is it going to be a 5 day or 9 day hunt? I know a lot of guys on here are for the five day hunt. I personally would like to see it changed back to nine days. I don't think it is fair to allow someone that only rifle hunts to be able to hunt maybe five days in three years. There are a lot of women and older men who only rifle hunt and they draw a tag every three year. Compare that to an archery hunter who gets a tag every year and gets 28 days to hunt. If we are going to restrict the rifle hunters, lets restrict the bow hunt to two weeks, and the muzzleloader hunt to 7 days. I am tired of hearing about the bow hunters need more opportuntity. I would be willing to bet that if everyone was honest, including every deer hit in the bow hunt the total number of deer killed would be pretty close to the rifle hunt.
 
Wildlife board passed the 5 day hunt for southern and southeast regions, for 2008 hunt.
 
five days! when are they going to start restricting the other hunts? Will they ever realize that bow, and muzzleloader hunters kill deer too.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-07 AT 01:42PM (MST)[p]5 days is the way it should be. Of course the other seasons kill deer, but their success rate is way lower. You should be able to draw a rifle tag every other year.
 
Lets look at a two year period. I bowhunt so I get to hunt 56 days in those two years. My wife, who likes to hunt just as much as I do rifle hunts. She draws a tag one year, and does not the next so she gets to hunt five days in that same two year period. That seem real fair to me! All southern region hunts should be shortened not just the rifle hunt.
 
Why should bow and muzzy hunters be punished for their choice of weapon? Buy your wife a bow or a muzzleloader. It's really not about making it fair, it's about management. For the record, I'm a muzzy guy, and I only draw every other year, and I'm cool with that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-07 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]Bragabit,

I sympathize with your situation. But, something is helping the deer numbers in Southern Utah. Maybe it is the yote bounty. Maybe it is a final end to the drought. Maybe its the five day hunt? I don't want to go back to nine days only to find out two or three years out that it was the five day hunt helping.

As for shortening the other seasons, WHY? So that all the bow hunters and muzzy hunters will start putting in for the rifle hunt again? Then it will take six years to draw. The DWR is trying to get more people into hunting archery or muzzy, that is just the plan. I hate to see any loss of opportunity to hunt (including the five day hunt, but I will put up with it).

Anyways, my wife and I are looking at muzzleloaders. LOL!!!
 
I agree that the deer numbers are looking better. But why is the rifle hunt the only one shortened? According to DWR's own survey the success is higher on the 5 day hunt. Why not go 7 days for the rifle, give two more days, and restrict the bowhunt by a week. The bowhunt would still be three weeks. I have a lifetime license, and have been a dedicated hunter for the last 11 years. It does not really matter to me. My wife shot a deer last year with a muzzleloader, and I am looking for her a bow. Not everyone has the health, and finances to buy new equipment. Nor should they have to, to be able to hunt.
 
>As for shortening the other seasons,
>WHY? So that all
>the bow hunters and muzzy
>hunters will start putting in
>for the rifle hunt again?
> Then it will take
>six years to draw.
>The DWR is trying to
>get more people into hunting
>archery or muzzy, that is
>just the plan. I
>hate to see any loss
>of opportunity to hunt (including
>the five day hunt, but
>I will put up with
>it).

Incorrect with respect to the MLs impacting rifle tag availability. There isnt a specific ML or Rifle tag allocation. Its just "General Deer" and if you draw, you get whatever weapon type you chose, rifle or ML. In fact before the ML season starts you can just stop in and trade your tag for the other type for a minor ($6?) fee.

Archery is its own allocation at 12k tags I think statewide... maybe its 18k now I forget. I would like to see archery tags restricted to at least the existing 5 Regions.


-DallanC
 
This is the best NeWs ever so glad they kept the 5 day hunt. WOO WOO. If you don't like it then don't hunt at all.
 
The records of the DNR show that the average hunter spends the same amount of time in the field during the 9 day hunt in the southern/south eastern regions as they do when they only have 5 days to hunt. Don't quote me on it, but its something like 4.5 days a year. And Yes, for whatever reason, the harvest % went up on the 5 day hunt, verses the 9 day hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-07 AT 05:49PM (MST)[p]Hell im sick of this five day hunt.. In my oppinion the success ratio may be the same in the five day hunt as the nine day but it is forcing people to shoot the first two point they see in fear that they may not see another.. Most of us have to work for a damn living so we only get to hunt saterday and sunday.. i would like to be able to hunt atleast two weekend every other year..
 
People that will shoot a two point will shoot one on the first day or the last, it really doesn't matter how long the season is.
If it's a legal buck and they wish to take it who am I to judge anyway.
 
DallanC - Thanks for the correct info. I didn't know how the muzzy hunt was allocated. Makes sense now though.
 
Archers get 14,000 tags, they ARE part of the 97,000 overall tag numbers issued.

I am curious as why DallanC and others believe archers should be restricted to regions? The primary reason rifle/muzzy were made regional was to prevent over-HARVEST, there is NO evidence to show arhcers over-HARVESTING on ANY region. NONE!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Might as well move it back to nine days so there can be more of a family outing. I have not seen quality or quanity of deer get any better with the five day hunt. This is the worst I have seen it since hunting the Southeast Unit (Twelve Mile). Go take a look at the winter range and see whats left. I hope them spikes know how to breed! I hope they get there counts right this spring. If they do they should just shut the unit down and hope it will recover after a few years. The buck to doe ratio has got to be critically low.
 
The wildlife board gave in to the trophy crowds pressure on the 5 or 9 day hunt.

The biologists were following the managment plan by extending the hunt back to 9 days once the buck to doe ratio had recovered.

The general season hunter is considered a necesary evil in Utah. It shouldn't be that way, but they get the blame for everything that is wrong with the deer herd in Utah. If more of the normal joes would show up to the RAC meetings and voice their opinions things would go better for them.
 
I'm all for the 9 day hunt coming back. I have not seen enough effedence to show me that the 5 day hunt is any better then the 9 day hunt. Having said that I agree with the board in keeing the 5 day hunt for now. Next year is the year the DWR reviews there deer management plan and makes changes to it as needed. I would much rather keep it as status quoe for now, if they are going to make any changes lets do it all at one time next year. It's getting to dang difficult keeping up with all the changes every year.

400bull
 
If the five day rifle hunt is so effective in helping the deer herds, lets use the same logic and reduce the archery, and muzzleloader hunts. Don't get me wrong, I want all the hunting opportunities possible for everybody. I just think if we need to reduce hunting pressure, and success lets do it over all three hunts not just the rifle hunt. It seems to me that most of the people for the five day hunt are archery and muzzleloader hunters. This way they get their cake and eat it to.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-07 AT 10:01AM (MST)[p]Again, the fact is, the success rate for primitve weapon hunts isn't very high, so limiting their lenghth isn't a very effective management tool. If you need to limit the harvest to keep your population objectives you have to limit the hunt that takes the most animals. It's really pretty simple. I feel your pain, I enjoy a rifle hunt from time to time, but again it's about the management. Did you go to the Southern RAC? I was not able to make it this year, but like was said earlier, that is the place to voice your opinion if you really want it heard.
I live in the heart of some of the best country in the Southern unit, I have deer in my yard every day, in fact I nearly hit a 180 class buck on the way to work this morning and I have definately seen an improvment since the inception of the 5 day hunt!
 
Shummy,
I understand that the success rate is not as high with the primitive weapons. But, you can't tell me that if you shortened the bow hunt by one week and the muzzleloader hunt by 2 days the success would be lower and therefore more deer. It is the same logic that you are using for keeping the rifle hunt short. Like I said earlier I would love to see a month long archery hunt, two week muzzleloader hunt and a nine day rifle hunt, but our deer herd will not sustain it. I just hate to see the rifle hunt cut almost in half and the other hunts left alone. Lets try taking a couple of days from all of them.
 
Where do you get your "facts/info" that the majority of those in favor of the 5 day hunt are archers? I call BS. I am in FAVOR of the 9 day hunt, but the majority of those who SHOWED up at the RAC's and WB were against it. I seriously doubt most of those in opposition were/are archers. I would love to see/hear how you came up with that nonsense.

Archers do NOT kill enough bucks to negatively impact buck/doe ratios, evidence is the WF, where archers can hunt for 3 MONTHS and the buck/doe ratio rivals that of the Henries. The muzzle loader hunt was move out of the rut to help buck/doe ratios, so don't make it like only the rifle hunters 'sacrifice'. The FACTS say rifle hunters DO make a larger impact on buck/doe ratios than primitive weapons, so that is where the adjustments MUST be focused in order to improve ratios/quality. This isn't/shouldn't be about rifle vs archery vs muzzy, it should be what NEEDS to be done to improve/meet objectives.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Shummy.
I differ with you on this. In the five day season, people take the first legal deer, much more often. Deer of all sizes are affected, as less are killed.
However, the average person hunting will think long and hard before letting a deer walk. Also, quality is effected with more hunters out at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I like the five day season and I like getting a chance every two years.
Total tag reduction would be nice. Like to see the number of four points harvested in each of the seasons.
 
I appreciate everyone opinions, but I still maintain my stand that primitive weapon hunts have less impact on deer numbers than rifle hunts. I also still think that those folks who choose to harvest immature animals will do so on the first day or the last day, it matters not the lenghth of the hunt. To each their own, if you wish to harvest a spike, if it's legal I say good for you. I know that if I put in the effort, I can still find good deer.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-07 AT 11:24AM (MST)[p]I would like to ask another question. If this is such a good management tool, then why are we only doing it on the southern and southeastern regions? These are arguably the two best regions in the state. Lets do it in all of the regions. I would also like to know if every Rac gets to vote on whether the Southern region has a five day hunt. The decision should be made by the Southern region RAC.
 
I would agree that the rifle hunters make the most impact on the deer herd. I am not argueing that. But, you will never convice me that the primitive weapon hunters make NO impact. There are a lot of avid archery hunters who only take good ethical shots, and make good clean kills. There are also hunters that don't draw a rifle or muzzleloader tag so they pull their bow out the day before the hunt and go hunting. Maybe it is just me but it seems that I hear of two deer hit for every one recovered. Again I am not for restricting any hunts, but if we need to for the better managemnt of the deer, lets do them accross the board not just the rifle hunters.
 
What is your 'logic' of only the southern RAc being 'allowed' to decide an issue that impacts hunters from ALL aprts of the state?

Your claim of wounding two for every kill by archers is BUNK as well, just keep making stuff up, sooner or later you may get something correct.:eek:

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro,
Since you are our formum expert on all things, answer my question if the five day rifle hunt is such a good management tool why are we not doing it statewide? Maybe you should read the post a little closer. I stated that there are some great archery hunters that make good one shot kills . But there are also people not as skilled that wound animals that are not recovered.
 
The Southern and Southeastern units have suffered badly in the past, that's why they were made a 5 day hunt. The units are now starting to rebound and the only thing that we have done different that I can see is shorten the hunt, and move the muzzy hunt out of the rut. I would love to hunt in the rut, but I am wise enough to see the negative impact it would cause, so I will sacrifice. That sacrifice benifeits you too, so arguments stating that primitive weapons guys are being selfish don't hold any water. I also never said that primitive weapons make NO impact. I am not stupid, I know that they make an impact, it just can't be compared to the general rifle hunt. Even land use is higher during the rifle hunt. I didn't go to the RAC, I didn't have time but things still went my way. If they hadn't I would really not be in a position to complain. If you want change you have to participate. If you do your homework, 5 days is ample time to harvest a buck. If you are looking for trophy animals they really don't come to the weekends only hunter unless luck is on your side. Please don't misinterpet that statement, I realize that not everyone can hunt 5 days straight, sometimes there are other things that you are obligated to do. I too have those obligations or I would have been at the RAC.
 
wether amateuroutdoors wants to admit it or not, the fact is ALOT deer are wounded and die that are never recovered by archers. i see it and here about it every year. to argue otherwise is rediculous. i am an archery hunter myself so it hurts me to say that but it is true. i think one of the reasons is because its an over the counter hunt and those that dont draww the rifle or muzzle loader go buy an archery tag just so they can go hunt. also, i think the dedicated hunter program puts alot of people out in the hills with a bow that otherwise would not be. if you bow hunt yourself than you know that it takes alot of time and practice to get good enough to kill deer with archery tackle and i think it is safe to say that the above mentioned hunters dont put in the amount of time that bow hunters only do which in my opinion results in numerous deer shot and wounded that are never found. for those reasons i wish they would get rid of the over the counter tags and eliminate the state wide deal. not much you can do about the dedicated hunters though but i know it will never happen.
 
Good job trueblu, using insults to repeat false claims. Just because you and others repeat nonsense, does NOT make it any less INCORRECT.

"Since you are our formum expert on all things, answer my question if the five day rifle hunt is such a good management tool why are we not doing it statewide? Maybe you should read the post a little closer. I stated that there are some great archery hunters that make good one shot kills . But there are also people not as skilled that wound animals that are not recovered."

You may want to follow your own advice here. If you were to read my comments a little closer, you would see I was/am NOT in favor of keeping it a 5 day hunt.

There is NO statisics/data to support the claims of high wound rates by archers. The difference is archers usually know when they hit an animal, do you think rifle hunters launching 500+ yard shots follow them up to check for blood on a regular basis? Hell no they don't, they ASSUME to have missed, without verification. Think about it!

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Tell me why you're not in favor of it? Is it because they are saying more deer are killed on the 5 day hunt? Is there proof of this? Honest questions, because, like I've been saying, I'm just not seeing it.
 
The data givedn by the DWR shows little/no diference in days hunted and number of bucks harvested, so why not let hunters have 9 days to chose which days to hunt? It would mostly benefit the youth, the hunters we should worry the most about.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
I would like to see the data and know the way in which it was collected before I changed my opinion, is there anywhere I can review it? Like I have been saying, I have seen a definate improvement, but no changes have been made other than the hunt length. I do agree with you that the youth needs more opportunity.
 
The DWR precented the data at the Centeral RAC meeting you might be able to locate there presention on there web site. I belive the data was collected by phone suveys. I'll see if I can dig up the statis from you from the DWR web page and post it here.
 
Here is the data from the DWR web page

The following chart compares five-day hunts in Utah to nine-day hunts. The chart begins in 1999, when Utah's first five-day deer hunt was held in parts of the Southeastern Region:

Year Season
length Average days
hunted Deer taken per
1,000 hunters
1999 5 days 3.2 470

9 days 3.9 321

2000 5 days 3.3 480

9 days 3.8 326

2001 5 days 2.9 330

9 days 3.6 275

2002 5 days 3.2 317

9 days 4.0 237

2003 5 days 3.0 224

9 days 3.7 241

2004 5 days 2.8 367

9 days 3.5 329

2005 5 days 3.1 282

9 days 3.5 229

2006 5 days 3.0 441

9 days 3.5 324


Sorry the cut and past did not work to great so here is the link to the data.

http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/news/07-10/deer_elk.php
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-07 AT 02:45PM (MST)[p]I don't think that phone surveys are a reliable source for data collection, but I can't really think of a better way of doing it. I do know that I have never been asked to participate in a phone survey, nor has anyone that I've hunted with. Either way you look at it, changing it to a 5 day hunt hasn't hurt anything.
 
That's the point..... If it has not hurt nor fixed anything why keep it? All that it is doing is restricting the amount of time one can hunt. Who wants that?

400bull
 
Shummy, there HAS been other factors. Deer herds in regions with 9 day hunts have improved at about the same rate. Deer numbers are up, which would stand to reason would mean buck numbers would be up as well. Buck/doe ratios haven't skyrocketed due to the 5 day hunt, so like 400bulls says, "If it has not hurt NOR fixed anything, why keep it? All that it is doing is restricting the amount of time one can hunt." There is NO data to support the 5 day having helped. In truth though, this is a mute point for a year as it was already decided last week. Good/fun topic however.

400bull, did you go to GVHS? I believe your mother was my cub scout leader many moons ago.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
I see your point, but I'm not sold on the data, I can't get past the improvements that I've seen first hand. I'm the last guy that wants to limit opportunity, hell I don't really even rifle hunt anymore, but I would like to see a more accurate data collection system and a couple of more years to have the data prove itself. What the better system is I can't say, I know it's foolish to bring up a problem without a solution, but it's all I've got.
 
Pro,

Yes, I went to GVHS

Yes, it is highly likely that my mom could have been your cub scout leader.

Yes, it is highly likely my dad could have been you Boy Scout leader,

If you still live in the Gunnison Valley area and have boys in the scouting program it is highly likely that my brother has had some influence on their scouting experience.

If my memory service me correctly we had this same conversation about a year or two ago. I'll be dammed if I can remember your name.

400bull
 
400 bull & Pro both from Gunnison? What made you leave gods country? I think I know a few of your relatives.

As for the 5 day hunt, I have not seen any improvement since it was established....just the opposite. I am sure there are other factors. I know of one poaching case last year that took around 12 mature buck in a very small area (That they are aware of). That can't help much.
 
I think that the point Pro was trying to make (if I may Pro)that a couple of you guys seem to be missing, is that NOW is not the time to ##### about the 5 day season. Those against it should have shown up to the RAC and let their voices be heard. The DWR's own data showed that changing the rifle hunt back to 9 days would have virtually no effect on the management plan. The irony here is that the DWR agrred with you!
However, I WAS at the RAC, and like PRO said, the MAJORITY of the people that voiced their concerns (including some well known outdoor groups) were in favor of keeping the hunt 5 days.
...And the winner is......
I too, would have liked to see the hunt go back to 9 days. Maybe next year, a few of you guys who feel so strongly about this topic should plan on attending the RAC....
By the way, the post above that indicates that Dedicated hunters are part of the problem made me laugh out loud! I dont even know how to respond to such an idiotic ill-informed comment!!

------------------------------------------------------
By the way,
I live in UT.
There are a lot of UTARDS that live here.
I have also seen quite a few WYOMORONS, NEVADUHNS, COLORADORKS, ID-IOTS and AIRHEADZONANS in my travels.
 
I have to say I agree with Shummy, Thebuckstopshere and others
that say they are seeing more and better bucks the last couple of years. I can't say that it is because of the 5 day hunt, and I know that other people my not be seeing the same in the areas they kick around in. After all there are a lot of differant herds, and a lot of country out there.

That being said, my house is surrounded on all sides by BLM and within a long shot of the heart of a 200 to 300 head winter range, so I know what I am seeing from one year to the next. I have family and friends who are out in the hills or driving through them on a daily biases as part of scraping up a living in southern Utah, and they are all saying the same thing.

We have had some really great fires this summer that have burned off thousands of acres of ceder and juniper. I think a drinker building program in these areas would be a good idea.
Does any body else have any ideas that might help maximize all this new habitat?
 
I left Gunnison valley in 1985 for college, and then moved to Tooele County for work. I miss the valley life, having great hunting/fishing right there.

400bull, I was at the Central RAC and recognized you when you got up and made a comment. Last name is Hansen, grew up east of Centerfiled on the farm up on the hill.

Shummy, I think you make good points, but we have to go with the data available. That is part of the problem, data or lack of it.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
If I understand this correctly, the reason the DWR recommended that the hunts move back to 9 days is because the buck/doe ratios had increased to their management objectives. This would indicate that the 5 day hunt was working to accomplish what it set out to do. I hunt in the southeastern region and on purely anecdotal evidence believe that the hunt is better now, since the implementation of the 5 day hunt, i.e. I see more bucks and more mature bucks than before.
The surveys in question are interesting. No one I know was ever or has ever been contacted for that particular survey.
As far as the data collection and comparison, it would seem to me that the DWR is comparing apples to oranges. If you survey people from a 5 day region with people from a 9 day region, how do you take into effect the general differences in region? the differences in buck/doe ratios of those specific regions? etc.
I can't understand the logic in moving the hunt back to 9 days, the FIRST year the buck/doe ratios reach the objective. And as I understood it, they barely made it anyway. Why don't we build a little wiggle room and actually have the buck/doe ratio ABOVE the objective for a year or two?
My question to the forum is what else was changed in this region to make the buck/doe ratio increase? The only other thing I believe that has happened was to decrease the number of tags for the region.
 
A decrease in tags does more for buck/doe ratios than a 5 day hunt could ever do. Deer numbers overall are up, this is another reason for more bucks in the field.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
you can't tell me that the statewide archery does not have an effect on the Pahvant and Beaver deer herds. Have you ever been on either mountain the first day of the archery deer hunt?? Unbelievable. It may not have near as big an effect as the rifle deer hunt has, but the deer herd is effected. Rifle hunters get there time cut almost in half, Archery hunters will never give up a thing, not a day, not statewide archery nothing to try to help the deer herd. Even if it is not a huge impact, it is an impact.
My suggestion is this only make it so you have 1 choice when you put in for a general deer tag, if you don't draw it, then you don't hunt that year. If the Norther region does not sell out for a few years, the deer herd should benefit to the point where people will want to put in for it. If people want to hunt archery let them put in for archery 1st choice. Don't have all these hunters that don't draw going and buying archery tags over the counter. This could limit the # of people harvesting deer, and help the deer herd.

By the way I love to archery, muzzleloader and rifle hunt.
 
I never wanted this to de a debate between Rifle, muzzleloader, and archery hunters. WE all want the same thing better deer hunting. I don't think anyone can argue that the more days hunters spend in the field the more deer get killed, it is just common sense. I will completely agree that rifle hunters make the biggest impact per day. I still stand by my statement that bow, and muzzleloader hunters take their share of deer also. Coyoteslayer makes a good point. If hunters did not have the leftover tags to fall back on, it would increase the draw odds for the southern, and southeastern region. If by chance all tags don't get sold, then we have accomplished what we all agree we need fewer deer tags sold.
 
HAHAHAHAHA, the DWR will NEVER not sell every tag they can, you guys forget where there $$$$$ comes from. Although I like the idea, it will never happen.



Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
Nothing will change tell there is (other) money put into the system. The DWR has a budget and it is (all) like 97% based on tage sales. How can you manage any system when this is the case. As to the Numbers does any body belive the # that are given? how did they get them? Why do we not check in every deer killed? It is done in other states i hunt in. Utah does it on some of there hunts now. Maybe, like the ones they would like to really manage. Just food for thought.
 
A few thoughts and facts as this thread is bobbing from argument to argument:

1 - the push back to a nine day hunt, for whatever reason proposed by DWR, was voted through based solely on a perception that there were NOT ENOUGH hunting days. The DWR rejected the Southern RAC recommendation to go back to a nine day hunt. We will see what happens next year. My guess is (for whatever reason) this year is the last year of a five day hunt.

2 - If it were all about the money generated by tag revenue, you would have a much different looking general season deer hunt in Utah. It might be a lot about money, but it is not all about money. I think PRO said it best its about opportunity, quality, and something else.

3- All in all - given what I have seen in the Central region and the Southern Region - and posted on here from the Northern Region - the Utah deer situation aint that bad.
 
buckstops,

It isn't all that good either. Ever been to Colorado? Yes, it is getting better than it was, but could stand some more improvement.

PRO,

Dude, do you ever listen? You will NEVER convince me that bowhunters do not affect the deer. Even if they kill one they had a impact. I agree the impact of bowhunters is less than rifle, but an impact none-the-less. That is a fact Jack! ;-)

Carry on boys. Argue up a storm. No, I am not going toe to toe with you Bart. You exhaust me.:)
 
From talking to friends and family in attendance at the Southern RAC meeting, they came away from the meeting feeling that the southern RAC was going to recomend we return to a nine day hunt. The buckstopshere got the same message. Before the meeting I read were the Wildlife board was recomending we go back to nine days. If this is the case then did the wildlife board change it's mind, or did the southern region get out voted by the other RAC's.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-07 AT 05:30PM (MST)[p]I was at the Southern Region RAC meeting and yes, the RAC voted to recommend going back to the 9 day hunt. I figured it was a done deal. I am glad that it stayed 5 days atleast one more year. I am not a biologist or deer expert by any means, but chasing muleys has been my passion/obsession since I was small kid. I spend alot of time scouting and hunting muledeer bucks in the southern region. I'm always out hiking, looking, talking to other hunters, game wardens, etc.

I don't know much about the numbers that the division spits out or how they come up with the equations, but all that I can tell you guys is that after the hunt went to 5 days, it got better. I can only speak from what I actually see out in the field. My main question is why do we have to be satisfied with 15 bucks per 100 does? We should continue to do what ever we can to have a constantly improving deer herd. The attitude seems like "well, we've gotten up to 15 bucks to 100 does, we can quit now, back to 9 days".

Here is some of my experiences hunting the 5 day areas. Before we went to 5 days, this type of buck was the best you could hope to find....

IMGA0114.jpg


A 19" crabby 4pt. I even had a guy stop me on the road and say what a nice buck this was. LOL!


A couple of years after the 5 day season was in effect, I started to find nicer bucks....

muzzleloaderbuck.jpg


buck1.jpg


06MuzzBuck.jpg


It still takes alot of time and effort, but atleast there are some good ones around to keep hope alive. Once we go back to 9 days, the buck to doe ratio will probably not be effected much, but the size of the bucks will. I would like to have more time on the rifle hunt also, but I would rather hunt bigger bucks for 5 days than 2 points for 9.

Thanks,
oakbrush
 
Oakbrush
Great job of laying your point out for all to SEE and hear!
I,m seeing the same from about 70 miles north of you.
 
Oakbrush, I would agree I am seeing more mature bucks the last few years. I don't think I would give all of the credit to the five day hunt. Prooutdoors stated earlier that the numbers are up in the Northern region which is nine days also. I couldn't help but notice that all of your pictures all are in camo, and look like September folige conditions. Are any of them killed in the rifle hunt, or are they all killed in the muzzleloaderhunt.
 
bragabit,

They are muzzy bucks, except that smaller one was rifle. I am a dedicated hunter, so if I hadn't have taken those bucks during the muzz hunt I would have still been out there for the 5 day rifle. In 1999 the unit that those bucks were taken in only had a buck to doe ratio of 5 to 100. The 5 day season was implemented in 2000 and by 2001 the ratio was up to 22 bucks per 100 does. I think that speaks for itself. You might be right about it not making much of a difference now, the population as a whole is alot bigger now than it was then. But a 2 year turn around like that can't be explained by any other way. This was also during one of worst droughts in modern times. I hunted the area through the 90's and that is why I really appreciate what I have now.

Here is the link to the DWR's data...

http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/01-04_bg_report.pdf

Thanks,
oakbrush
 
Oakbrush,
congrats on some great bucks. I am also a dedicated hunter also and love to muzzleloader hunt. Something is helping the deer herd, probably a combination of many things. Coyote bounty, mild winters, habitat restoration and the five day hunt. If we are going to use your logic then you shouldn't be opposed to shortening the muzzleloader hunt to seven days, and the bow hunt to three weeks. If shortening the hunt is good for one group of hunters then it should be good for all.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-07 AT 07:03AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-07 AT 07:02?AM (MST)

bragabit,

I feel in order to have an improvement in the deer herd we have to think about the animals not ourselves. We have to think about the impact we as hunters have on them. You would have to agree that the more primative the weapon, the less impact that particular hunting season has on the population of the herd. I think that the length of each season is appropiate for the type of weapon that is used. Even at 5 days, the rifle hunt stills kills off more bucks than the 9 day muzz hunt. The 9 day muzz hunt kills more bucks than the month long archery hunt. As far a everyone should have to sacrifice, the muzz hunters did already. They used to get to hunt during the rut, they had to give that up to lessen the impact on the herd. Maybe archery could be shortened back to 3 weeks like it used to be that is still alot of time to hunt. Rifle and Muzz hunters have had to give some things up, maybe it is the Archers turn. I don't know.

In 2000, when the rifle hunt went to 5 days, I too felt like I was losing some of my opportunity. But I also knew that it needed to be done to save the creature that I love to hunt. Instead of complaining about it, I decided to take up a new weapon and learn a new way of hunting. And with a muzzleloader, I get my 9 day hunt. I grew to love hunting with a muzzleloader, and I am also a better hunter now because of it.

Over time, the muledeer has had to adapt to many different things in order to survive. Why can't we adapt our way of thinking a little and give them a few more days to survive so we can have a good experience and maybe get to see some of these bucks reach the potential that mother nature intended for them.

The way things are going, it looks like you will get the 9 day hunt back in the next couple of years. I hope that you are right and we don't go back to the dark days again. I do feel that we should allow youths to hunt 9 days. With church, school, sports, etc. they need another weekend to hunt with a rifle.

thanks,
oakbrush
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-07 AT 11:16AM (MST)[p]Can anyone out there remember when the SOUTHERN region went to five days. The SOUTHEAST region has been five days for awhile, but as I think back I can't remember when the SOUTHERN region went to five days - it was AFTER the Southeastern region. Anyone remember, I googled a bit and couldn't find anything.
 
Oakbrush,
I would agree with a lot of what you say. I know in the small town I live in the success on "mature" bucks is higher in the muzzleloader hunt. There are uaually 8-10 good mature bucks killed in the muzzleloader hunt. Compare that with maybe 4-5 good bucks killed with a rifle. Like I have said all along I am a dedicated hunter and hunt the entire muzzleloader hunt. I feel the muzzleloader hunt gives me the chance to kill the best buck. I have a 10 year old daughter that I am more interested in her opportunity than my own. I don't feel that at 12 she would be capable of handling any weapon besides a youth sized rifle. With maybe two days of hunting it doesn't give her many opportunities.
 
I think that calling the muzzy hunt a "primative weapons hunt" is a lot like saying that pam andersons chest is natural. I think that muzzy hunters are killing more bucks in large part because of technology. And rifle hunters shooting howitzers are killing more bucks. And archers have the techno card in thier hands also. The only way I see to allow bucks the years they need to grow bone is to LIMIT tags. Smaller units managed better for better deer. Manage for quality instead of managing for revenue. Keep track of hunter numbers, where the pressure is and adjust as needed. And stop changing the rules. In the old days you could hunt all three hunts after buying three tags and could only kill one buck. Then we were told we needed to limit hunter days afield, so it was choose your weapon. Then for some cash and raking leaves at DWR offices you became a dedicated hunter. What happened to limiting hunter days? Oh yeah, the cash! Then we lowered hunting age to 14 to recruit more kids! But that increases hunter days also! Now i see it, the cash! In the meantime buck/doe ratios plument except on limited, hard to draw for years (Keep putting in, we don't get any money because we contract out the application service so now ya'll gotta buy a license). We have the genetics, habitat and want to, to have good deer and more of them in Utah, but we love the cash more than the resource. As hunters we need to voice our opinions and try to be heard. But sometimes i think its about the bucks and not the bony headed ones!
 
Bigbuckchaser

Love the Post MONEY is king.

Please tell me what weapon that is now used is ( Primitive ) The new bows sure are not or the new inlines are not. May be the long bow and flint and steel. Lets not kid our self's people.
 
How about we start a little rebellion and see if we can't get the DWR director an elected position? Right now in Utah it's an appointed job. If whoever was calling the shots in SLC could lose his/her job when hunters didn't like the direction they were leading, maybe a little more time would be spent on important issues. Now before some of ya'll string me up by saying that politics would sour things, i'd submit that i hate the thoughts of boneheads trying to be biologists in charge also. But it would be a wake up that good ideas are good ideas, regardless of WHO thinks them up. The way it is now, you need a P.H.D. and buckets of cash to get anyones attention. I say it's time to shoot of few shots over the bow and get somebody's attention! I want my kids to be able to afford to hunt. I think most of you do to. And if we sit by and stay passive, we'll be wonderin' why we aren't able to go to the woods each fall. They do a lot of stuff right and they are understaffed, but i know things can be done better. Just my thoughts and wanted to see what ya'll think. Now play nice children or i'll stop this truck and kick your butt's so hard your grandkids will walk with a limp!
 
i see the majority of us looking for the same thing in our hunting experience(quality of animals).hunters take animals from the annual population that would be lost anyways i.e.(old age,starvation,bad winters,road kill,& the one we can do better to prevent PREDATORS).granted the animals we take are males,but taking a female hurts the population alot worse. we need good fawn production/survival if we are to keep moving in a positive direction. money is a major factor and i think the dwr has done a good thing making us have a small game liscence in order to apply or obtain any other tag/liscence. this doubles the # of tag sales therefor doubles the amount of federal dollars granted to our state.they are also giving the youngsters sm. game liscence right out of the gate. we need the money from the feds and the youngsters for our future.they could have just raised tag prices.this is a win/win situation.the ave. age of us hunters isnt 27 anymore. right now its 46 and that doesnt make our future look too bright. the fewer of us in the field meens the more expensive the tags will be.one of the biggest things that effects our herds is habitat and habitat creation/restoration isnt cheap itip my hat to the dedicated hunters picking projects that directly affect big game habitat.i would like to attend a RAC MTG. and propose a call in prcedure to an automated phone system about hunting success/area/# days afield.you must complete this prior to applying for tags the following year. JUST MY 2CENTS FEELS LIKE I RAMBLED ON I HAVE MANY MORE THOUGHTS BUT I'LL SPARE YOU GUYS FOR NOW. THANKS FOR THE GREAT START ON THIS THREAD WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER
 
I agree with Oakbrush
I'm seeing bigger deer in the 5 day area's then before so why go back to 9 day hunts. Everyone likes bigger deer.
 

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