Killing all the cows

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Buglelk

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Can someone please tell me why they want to slaughter all the cows in the current creek area. I have not looked this year but last year on the site it said they wanted to harvest as many cows as possible????
I hunt in the current creek area and there is plenty of food source for the animals there. I have heard they think less elk means more deer?
It just drives me nuts. There can't be too many elk in the area?

There must be something else. Does anyone know any meetings they could refer me to that I could go and try to get answers from the DWR? I would like to at least find out the "WHY"

When I go hunting I like to see animals even if I can't harvest them and this seems pointless to kill all of them off in this area.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-14 AT 11:17AM (MST)[p]I am wondering the same thing.... I think that BERRYBLASTER has been to some meetings about this but I do not know the outcome. Maybe he will get in on this.

If they are doing this because of numbers they are looking in the wrong areas. There are some areas of the Wasatch that have a lot of elk on them, these areas are also PRIVATE. IMO they should not count for the survey because they cannot be hunted. An example of one of these areas is the Wolf Creek Ranches. This is a winter range for a lot of elk on the Wasatch. On any given night you can drive in there and see thousands of elk.
 
According to the DWR biologists, they are there. Said they did a count in the summer, and counted 500 elk faster than they have ever counted before. I for one would think it to be somewhat difficult to count elk with all of the leaves giving cover, but I am just a lowly sportsman who "probably never gets out of the truck" according to the same biologist......
 
BEAVIS got his LE Bull this year!

Maybe now He'll Suck the DWR's BS In?










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I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
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Last winter and the winter before the DWR flew the Tabby MTN wildlife management unit which is where most of the elk off current creek winter, they counted over 4500 head of elk. The biologists in this area are very good and understand what is going on as do many of us that live in the unit. The elk are reproducing more calfs each year then what is being harvested. I know many will disagree but those of us that live in the area and spend 300+ days a year either ranching or farming and even hunting in the current creek area will agree there is way to many elk. Every winter when I'm riding the winter range a horse back (hunting lions) between red creek and SR 208 and the cow hunters are hunting that area. I always here we didn't see a single elk all morning. ( nor did I find a liontrack) Of coarse they didn't running the highway or red creek road. But a mile or two off the road on the same day I will see a couple hundred easy every day no matter where I ride

25 or 30 years ago we had lots of deer out here, we also had very little predator control. Then in the late 80's and early 90's we started to get elk in a lot of this country and the deer started to diminish, why is that?

Here's a theory that some biologist are finally realizing and I agree with (remember only my opinion)
Elk have taken over our prime mule deer habitat, cows calf before the doe's have there fawns therefore the elk take over the desirable spots to have there young forcing the does to have fawns in less desirable areas , the elk are so abundant on the winter range that it has had an effect on the winter habitat as well.

I know every one wants to blame the lion cause that's easy, but in the Current Creek and surrounding areas there are more guys hunting and killing lions then ever before, also the unit is flown aggressively all winter long for coyotes.

So why have the deer herds not rebounded from all these things?

I don't want any one to think that I'm for the slaughter of any species, however I agree with what they are doing in the current creek area. I also hope that some day we as hunters can find a balance with all game, so we can all enjoy doing what we love to do ( tired of I'm a elk guy,I'm a dee guy I'm a sheep guy etc.)and fight together against those who are really trying to hurt us as sportsman.
 
I have spent a lot of time in the Trout Creek, Willow Creek area and I have not seen squat for elk. A few bulls, and that is it! We have not seen very many deer either. It sounds to me like the elk are all on private land. I have talked to other hunters that have hunted by Current Creek and the lake, they said saw very few elk. There is just not much for elk west of the lake and all the way to Strawberry.
 
Lightningridge is not accurate it was 2992 counted with a total population estimate of 3500 across the entire sub unit not just tabby mtn. Antlerless success rates have plummeted by half on most of the early and late hunts. The control tags had an average success of about 20% according to the published big game report....how that suggests we are 2000 elk over objective is beyond me

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-14 AT 08:23AM (MST)[p]Here's my two cents...I have hunted this area for the past 30 yrs. Killed a lot of elk here. back in the hay day we used to see 50 to 100 head of elk the first few days of the hunt then the elk did what elk do and became scarce.

The last few years we have seen 5 to 10 elk in as many days. a couple of days I have seen more moose than elk. I spoke with a DWR officer on day three of the hunt. Super nice guy. He asked what we had seen. It happened we had run into 3 elk at a long distance. I told the officer about it and he said we were some of the very few that had seen any elk.

I asked him if the biologist under stood that elk migrate into concentraited areas for the winter and went on. The poor guy got an ear full. Just so you all understand. I am not a road hunter. I have been successful by getting off the roads and try to get in a couple miles. We did run into a couple bulls during the hunt, but the numbers are way way down from a few years ago.

The DWR officer did say that numbers were low enough the reservation did not issue any cow tags this year.

Good luck to all.

Dave
 
The supposed count this summer was a joke as biologists supposedly counted the 500 head on Wolf Creek Ranches, a place that doesn't get hunted hardly at all. They tried to find elk on public land and couldn't do it so they went to Wolf Creek.
 
Igottabigone let me correct you as well, I was on the counts/classification, and am the only one of the people you talk to that keeps a record of what I see and where I see it.

After 3 days (mornings and evenings) between 10-12 people, we had come up with 120+- head of elk. One herd of 43 (above daniels summit) and another of 21 (strawberry ridge between main canyon and clyde creek) were the biggest we could turn up on public ground. On wolf creek they saw an another 40 head. Wednesday morning, a couple of division employees flew the spine of strawberry ridge from daniels summit, to chipman creek. They were able to find an additional 300 (70+- in chipman and 90+- in Jones hollow) head from the chopper. (some of which were in the same areas as elk we had previously counted) making the total 420 or so head of elk.

Classification wise, we were out to determine cow/calf numbers with my DNR companion we averaged 1/5 one calf for every 5 cows. this lined up with two other teams that were out. However, now the number is 59/100. I dunno how it jumped. Dale said its cause if the cows come out of the pines then the calves are still in there so basically you have to guess but that's above my pay grade.

Conditions were very poor for the count, Hot full moon etc etc. There were two nursery herds we knew of between 40-60 head that we just didn't see because of the heat and moon. These are not accounted for in the above numbers.

That's a tad bit more accurate than the info you received, bless the hearts of those who gave it too you ;-)



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Well I just got my camp off the mountain and have a sad report for you all. In all we spent probably 30 or so days on the Currant Creek Cow Elk unit this fall. This includes scouting trips and the last 12 days on the mountain. In addition, we also had multiple cameras up on the unit.

We had a hard time finding elk both before the hunt and during the hunt. I spent a lot of time in areas I have found and killed elk in over the years but due to low elk numbers in historically good places, we spread out and covered multiple new areas of the unit. We hunted Mill Hollow, Duchesne Ridge, West Fork, Lake Creek, Coal Mine, Red Ledges, Red Creek/Low Pass, Trout Creek, Racetrack, Water Hollow and a few other places. The largest herd spotted was 15 animals - 5 raghorn bulls, a spike, a herd bull, and 9 cows and calves. We went several full days without seeing a single elk. We road hunted, we sat in spots and glassed huge areas for long periods of time, and we hiked our tails off. We had 4 cow tags and 1 spike tag and we only got one shot opportunity and missed.

In all the days we spent up there I can count around 20-25 animals taken between all the camps and people we passed on the roads. Even the shooting seemed to be on a decline from years past.

I have never been so disgusted, disappointed, and frustrated on a cow elk hunt before. Our freezers are going to be quite lean this year too which irritates me too. The only area we did not hunt was the Tabby Mountain and South of 40. We scouted both those places a little and didn't see too much but that is where they all must be. An absolute joke of a hunt........
 
I couldn't agree more with the above comments. I too have hunted elk in a lot of these same areas for the last 20 years and never have seen less elk than this year. I spent 10 plus days on the mountain archery hunting this year and in all saw one herd of elk greater than 2-5 running together. That herd I saw had maybe 15 head.

I don't quite understand how the DNR can feel comfortable with stating they would like to see as many elk taken as possible off of a unit. Frustrating to say the least. Especially when we spend a tremendous amount of time on this unit and are very familiar with areas the elk have been known to reside, yet there are not many elk left to go round!!!!!

I am worried for the future of elk hunting and feel this state is making huge mistakes in regard to the elk herd.

redelkarcher>>>----------------->
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-14 AT 04:34PM (MST)[p]The Elk are all on private land in that unit and on public at the bottom of the mountain when counting time comes around. Just one of the negative effects of having lots of private on an L.E. Unit.
 
Interestingly enough this is the 3rd thread lately about this same topic. I expressed in another thread that I couldn't understand why the state would issue so many cow tags which include the control tags while making the statement that they would like to harvest as many elk as possible on the Current Creek and Wasatch West units. While most years I don't have trouble finding elk, I've clearly seen a significant decline in overall elk number over the past decade. I've heard numerous people say very similar things both in talking personally to them and in similar threads to this.
 
I will chime in on this as well, however most of you are not going to like what I have to say. I hunted the exact same country as many people above mentioned, but had a totallly different expericnce.

I hunted the archery hunt, was into elk every day, saw one group with close to 100 head and several groups in the 20-50 range. I was able to harvest a cow and a bull and really enjoyed it.

Opening day of the rifle elk hunt I took my wife out we were into elk within 10 minutes of leaving the truck and killed a cow 50 mins after light. Of our of 3 rifle hunters two killed opening morning and the third had two oportunities on different heards sunday morning but missed, we did not hunt saturday or sunday night. Opening weekend we saw well over 100 head of cows and calfs, the bulls were bugeling and we never saw another hunter off the road.

Fast forward to the second weekend about 5 miles from where we hunted opening day, saturday morning we saw around 20 head again a missed shot. Saturday evening in yet another canyon we had not been in, found a group of about 40-50 head, bulls bugeling and we were able to get the third elk. Also pulled out three trail cameras and all three had elk on them almost every day of the rifle hunt and none of them were in the areas we hunted. I never saw one other hunter on the rifle hunt in the field and did not have one picture of a hunter on any cameras, but there were litterally hundreds of hunters up there. The people hunting up there were not hunting where the elk were, they were hunting were the elk were 3 years ago.
 
Seems to me you are the person in commercials when they say 9 out of ten feel this way. You are the 1 out of 10. I spent time up near current creek every year and have for the past 15 years and it gets worse and worse every year. The guy who said about deer and not having the best food for the fawns I don't believe at all. There is abundant food up in this area. Just hike in the mountains anywhere up there.
I think the DWR here in Utah are off their rocker or don't take into account the animals on private land or have some crazy agenda. To say they need to take as many as possible is just WRONG. Next thing you know they will tell us they want to bring wolves in too.
 
Buglelk,

Just so you understand my position, I do not agree with unlimited control tags, its not good management, I dont even agree with statewide spike and archery elk tags, there is no way to regualte how much impact they can have on a particular area. In my opinion every tag should be limited to a unit similar to the new deer management to ensure hunter distribution.

With that said I guess where I am the 1 in 10 is when it comes to people complaining about the lack of elk. There are a lot of elk in the above mentioned areas, probobly not as many as the division says, but not much different then the previos 20+ years. The elk are not where they have historically been but with the massive dieoffs in the pines and the constant pressure from hunters for months on end its no surprise.

I can tell you right now between heber city to current creek and back up the west fork of duchesne and down center creek road there are a ton of elk, I saw close to 200 head in 3 mornings and 1 evening and I didnt even cover a small percent of the unit, and was never even close to any private land.
 
I've been raising hell about this problem for 2-3 years now.

YES there are still elk, AND decent numbers in some areas ....

BUT there is also TON's of elk country south of hwy 40 and east
to Indian canyon that used to have AWESOME elk herds.
THERE FREAK'in pretty much gone....

-----Piss poor elk managment is an UNDERSTATMENT IMO!


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I strongly disagree with the unlimited tags as well. I also had a chat with Dale and he informed me that the Wasatch west was 900 head over objective. I find that hard to believe. He told me that by taking away the late wasatch west (nearly 100% success) cow hunt this year and giving all the unlimited control permits they would kill less cows this year than years past.

He also said I would need to leave the road to see elk. I just laughed at him. I would be willing to bet I spent more time in the field and hiking into remote areas then he did this year!
 
Hunted in that area the past three years and have had a cow and spike tag all three years. Shot two spikes and one cow in those three years with the chance to fill all of my tags every year. I didn't because one elk is enough for me and my family. Each of those elk were taken out of heards that I estimate to be between 30-50 in total. Lots of cows, calves, yearling bulls, rag horns and, several heard bulls. Ranchers are upset with the numbers because DWR is over objective. Until the numbers are at objective the tags will get sold. IMO I would agree I have seen more elk up there in the past 5 years then I have seen since I started hunting there 15 years ago.
 
Killing lots of cows is a tender subject for me. I mostly hunt the cache units. The quickest way to ruin a good elk unit is to over kill the cows. The North Cache is a prime example. My recommendation is to get to know your biologist and call him often. Another problem is the use of age objective to determine tag #'s. Other factors have to be taken into consideration. Like, Hunter success, tooth data not collected, etc.

Several years ago they were shooting some really nice bulls on the North Cache. Bull tags continued to increase along with 3 different areas of the unit for late cow permits. The Division relies heavily on tooth data that is turned in. Any tooth data that is not turned in is not figured into the equation. As an example if you have 50 permits and 25 of those kill but only 20 of them turn in tooth data the data become skewed to bigger bulls being killed each year. Assuming that those that killed and didn't turn it tooth data kill something small or young and they didn't care about turning in the teeth.

I'm grateful for a biologist in our unit that cares and takes public input into consideration. We now have no late cow elk hunts on the unit and bull tags have decreased dramatically. By having no late cow hunts it will help all wildlife. No one will be out in the hills chasing animals in December. The deer will have less pressure and actually be able to rut. Fawns will be born earlier and elk will have a little more time not be harassed before the really deep snow and cold hits.
 
As simply as it can be put, between 2006 and 2010 average success rates on LE antlerless hunts was 54.35% with a population estimate between 56 and 5900. Then from 2011-2013 average success fell to 34.8% with a population estimate between 7700 and 8900 head.

That a drop of 45% in average success...with nearly twice the elk. The model is broken, and Dale is the most embarrassingly clueless excuse of a state employee that I've ever had the misfortune of getting frustrated with.


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Everyone bitches if we shoot too many bulls and complains if we shoot too many cows! Cant have your cake and eat it to. Very little bull tags will mean lots of cows killed to meet objectives. Dont manage by tooth data, manage bull to cow ratios.
 
Springville meat just SMASHED their old record of wildgame
taken in ,,, in one year-----------------Mostly cow elk!

So, The theory of killing LESS cows this year is BS.



4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
makes no sense. killing spikes and cows period. especially on limited entry units at the same time as limited entry hunts.
 
yeah i'll reply to myself. put in for 20 years for an elk hunt, finally get it, and have a heard of ATV spike hunters on every ridge.
Plus kill a cow on those units, kill all the calves it will have.
i don't get it.
 
Really though....

What is the so called point of Killing cows on limited entry?
How can one justify let alone having spike hunts period, but having them at the same time as Limited entry Bull hunts?
And finally, Who in their right mind would purchase a cow permit and shoot one on the open bull units? To me its the most unethical thing. The open bull unit I used to hunt... people come from all over before daylight, line both sides of the canyon. sun comes up, they open fire. That heard of elk has no where to go. I don't see how 1. That is ethical, and 2. how you can call shooting a cow like that hunting.

Again, I'm not ragging, that is my opinion. I would really like to hear the point/justification. To me the only result I've seen is the steady decline of elk in both open and LE units alike.
 

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