Utah mule deer problem

[Robiland]

I have a giant problem with utah's mule deer herd. There isn't one!!!!!!!

I know that this is just my opinion, but we need to get rid of the cougars, or at least kill alot of them. I've got a good friend that does alot of preditor hunting. Mostly cyotes. He says that when he's in the mountains camping or fishing, he always brings his calls. He says that he has seen more cougars and cougar tracks than ever befor. Each year he says he sees more and more.

Second, we need to stop building in the deer and elks winter range. I HATE more than ever to hear people complain about the deer and elk eating their shrubs or whatever in the winter,

BUT their houses are in the foothills. DAH! Here's your sign!!

What do you all think?

 

[forest_freak]

I second what you said and will go one step more. I think that Utah NEEDS to start managing the deer herds like Colorado. Smaller units and limit tag numbers based on those smaller units. Utah is doing a great job managing LE elk units. Why? Smaller units with tags limited to keep numbers in check. How can you manage a deer herd based on regions? I don't think you can. I'm very familiar with the southern region. Lived and hunted it most of my life. The west desert has much lower hunting pressure than the mountains (fishlake, beaver, dutton, monroe, pavahant). Limiting to a five day hunt hasn't worked. Their own data shows that. I think the DWR needs to try and manage deer based on LE elk hunts. Give it a try for 5 years.

I don't like seeing homes built in winter range, however we can't stop it. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.

 

[ktg]

I don't think there's that great of a problem with cougars, at least in the areas I frequent in Utah. There are lots of areas where a person can just go buy a tag for a cougar and hunt until the harvest objective is met. My wife bought a tag a couple years ago because she has always wanted a cougar mount. A buddy has dogs and we hunted often and hard before we found one. There were TONS of other people out hunting them also. On the other hand, I don't think they need to reduce the pressure on the cougars. IMO, the best thing Utah can do to build the herds is to cut back on the numbers of buck tags issued.

 

[ktc]

I agree with "g". Cougars are not a problem in Utah. Orange Utards is a huge problem. You cannot give more tags than bucks.

 

[CATMAN]

PLEASE give me the location he is seeing all these lion tracks. It's getting pretty dang hard to find one where I live. I laugh at so many that think the predators are always the problem. Guess they are....its the two legged ones. GAME MANAGEMENT is our problem, always has been, lions have taken the blame long enough for our poor deer numbers. Like was already stated about the harvest objective units in the state....anyone can buy a tag and keep hunting till the quota is met. There are hundreds of people hunting lions, but very few harvest objective areas ever get closed because of meeting the dwrs objectives...why is that? Lack of kitty cats.....just like lack of deer. Before you start blaming cats....spend some time in the hills with a lion tag in hand and see how long and hard it can be to find one....let alone one worth taking.
Catman

 

[pumaguy]

Your buddy is on crack or just got his eyes fixed because we DO NOT have more cougar than years past. Been hunting cats for 25 years and definately see less tracks now than when I started. It's real easy to blame cougars for no deer, but look at the facts. The DWR purposely had every cougar killed several years ago on the Monroe with the purpose to see the impact on deer herds. Guess what, no cougars=no more deer. Granted cougars kill and eat deer, but they are not the big problem.

 

[cowslayer]

Here's the big question with the deer, are the elk preventing a deer come back on the Monroe and in Utah in General? Are elk pushing deer out? If that's not the case, then why are we eradicating elk off of the Henry's? Paunsagaunt? Alton? Etc...

It will also be interesting to see how the different sub-units in Colorado will help the deer in Colorado this next year with the big bad winter they are supposedly experiencing. I have not seen it first hand and have yet to see any pictures that are showing the deer and winter range. If you have some, please post them. That will be an intersting one to watch and see if it drives deer herd growth after deer catastrophes and in General. So far I support sub-units in Utah.

CS

www.VIPoptics.com

"When You Deserve The Very Best"

 

[Robiland]

Just for your info for some of you NON utards out there. I know a guy that wanted to go chase cats. NOW THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD ME.

He went down to Monroe. Brought his dogs to try and tree some cats. In ONE (that is the # 1) (singular) canyon up ontop of monroe, he brought 5 dogs and treed 4 diferent cats in that one little area.

We have a cabin up ontop of Monroe. We never used to see cats or tracks. We see cats every so often, and tracks all of the time.

Now don't sit there and tell me that the cougars are not the problem. get out and look for your selves.

Look at the study they did a few years ago. Over 500 cats from the point of the mountain by SLC down to Spanish Fork, Payson area. Thats just in the west facing slopes. Do the Math, cougars kill an average of 1 deer a week. Thats 500 in a week. Thousands a year, and the cats are'nt the problem why don't you guys stop smokin crack.

If you want to find a predator, you need to think like a predator, not like a city slicker.

 

[REDDOG]

I can't comment on the cougar population on the monroe, but in the mountains of northern utah they have taken a dam hard beating, 4 in one canyon eh?

 

[woodruffhunter]

Are there more cougars now than there were in the 60's? Is there less winter range than there was in the 60's? Are there more elk than there were in the 60's? Is there less public access than there was in the 60's? is there more hunting now than there was in the 60's?

 

[proutdoors]

The #1 limiting factor for deer numbers is HABITAT, the #2 limiting factor for deer numbers is HABITAT, the #3 limiting factor for deer numbers is HABITAT. After that I would list FOUR LEGGED predators. Hunters harvesting BUCKS has little/no impact on over-all herd numbers. And, if you look at the deer numbers, they are INCREASING in MOST parts of the state. The problem is we wrongly believe the deer numbers should instantly bounce back to late 70's levels. Guess what, for one, deer don't recover as quickly as elk, and they will NEVER be at late 70's levels again. There has been way too much permanent habitat loss and way too many atv trails that affect deer numbers.

The one predator I believe that has huge impacts the deer numbers as much/more than mountain lions but gets little attention is bears. They do a number on fawns in the spring, and bear numbers ARE on the rise, unlike mountain lions which are at about the same level or slightly LOWER than 10 years ago.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[Addicted]

I don't think you can point to just one thing.
Its a combination of many things that are pushing our deer herd into a real bad place.
Ill have to agree with Pro habitat is one of the biggest problems. Really bad management follows close behind it seems to me the state pretty much pushed the deer aside and ignored them while they concentrated on the Elk numbers. Predators may be a problem in some areas but has a whole not the biggest problem by far, yet.











Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave in a well preserved body, but to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting HOLY SH!T WHAT A RIDE!!!

 

[creamofthecrop]

tell the utah federation of houndsmen there is too many cougars. i dont think there is a problem with cougars at all but i do think utah needs to come up with something like cutting down the number of tags, or 14-18 year olds can shoot anything or any other first time hunter. other than that 3 point or better. i know lots of people that shoot a small buck on the last day of the hunt yeah yeah there meat hunters well then bye a doe tag or go to the store and by meat by the time you pay for gun gas tag and everything else youd be better off getting it from the store. maybe i sound too much like a trophy hunter, but the three point or better in some areas would definetly keep the younger bucks alive. maybe something like this i am no expert just an opinion. maybe switch it up every so often hell i dont know

 

[cowslayer]

I do believe there are more elk than in the 60's and growing.

Elk... Utah's Cash Crop!

CS

www.VIPoptics.com

"When You Deserve The Very Best"

 

[ktg]

Pro, you may be right about habitat being first, but what can be done about it on a statewide basis. I think it'll be a fight just to maintain habitat and that won't improve the herds. Predators may be second, but then again, what will the DWR do about it. They are managing them as well and I don't think they'll say 'let's kill even more to help the deer herd'. I don't believe your comment that hunter harvest has no effect and I believe that's the best place to concentrate management efforts. If hunter harvest has no effect, explain the Paus in the 80's and the Henry's now. Cut the tag numbers.

 

[257Tony]

There is enough Bucks to go around for the guys who are willing to work for them. Increasing winter range and overall habitat is #1 in my book, reducing tags would be #2, IMO.

 

[ZR1]

Nevada has cougars,coyotes, and elk competing with deer for the same habitat.Nevada does what utah is afraid of doing because they don't need the revenue like utah does THEY CUT TAGS! Residents are lucky to hunt every few years but it is a quality experience when they do. Utah wants to let everyone hunt were ever they want (statewide archery).At a rack meeting once I suggested that we cut the permits in half and charged twice as much for a permit, I told them I would rather hunt good deer every other or third year than little ones every year. The board thought it was the funniest Idea they said most utah hunters want the "family experince were everyone gets to hunt.You cant have it both ways but honestly I dont think its preadators as much as we think all the surrounding states doing better than us have just as many as we do (colorado,nevada,wyoming,) and look at are limited entry units and how well the are doing.

 

[GHOSTINTHEWOODS]

I'm going to vote for people being #1, poor management. Colorado has the same problems as utah as far as predators.they limited their tag numbers and the deer are doing better. take the bookcliffs for another example, in the early 90's the deer numbers out there where nill, I remember bear hunting out there for 10 days at a time when the deer were consentrated out high and you would maybe see 10-15 deer a day and maybe 4-5 bucks and 2-3 of those were yearling bucks. well, they shut it down for a few years and lowe and behold I'll be damned look at all the deer out there now. If you keep people from killing deer their numbers are better, that's pretty plain to explain.Just think the 350 tags or what ever they give out there if you don't kill them there are that many more bucks. pretty simple.
for another example take a look at this buck,general season, this year. we stop at a check point and they age and record this deer as being a 5 or six year old. I'm no biologist but I would bet my left one that this buck isn't a month over 3 years. If all their info that they are basing their studies on are this bad then no wonder. I'll stop babbling now. but here's the pic how old do you think this deer is ?

 

[creamofthecrop]

looks like a older buck to me, how was his teeth

 

[GHOSTINTHEWOODS]

barley spred and worn

 

[ktc]

That is a young deer. IMO of course!

The cougar population has been decimated in Utah. The other states seem to have the same issues we have with elk, cougar, and drought, except, they all limit tags more. At 97k tags, you would think the DWR would realize this number has only taken them so far. Tag reductions will help IMO. At least it is the most immediate and controllable fix.

 

[swbuckmaster]

Cougars na their not the problem.

Coyotes and bears could be a problem but not likely.

I believe one of the worst things hurting the deer is collisions with vehicles, habitat and rifles.

I would like to see fences put up to protect the deer along several highways. I would also like to see atv?s restricted. You simply can't have a trail on every hill and expect to have any bucks survive.

I don't think you have to limit tags unless you are talking about rifle tags. They are just too effective IMHO. The Wasatch Front allows anyone with an archery permit to hunt here and the buck to doe ratios are high, the quality of the bucks are as good as the LE units, the habitat is very poor ?just look at all the homes?, cant ride atv?s , and you can't hunt cougars in half the canyons.

So ask yourself what is the fix for Utah deer herds. I know the answer but you won't like the outcome.

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[swbuckmaster]

Looks like a young deer to me



Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[CATMAN]

Attention Robiland,
I'll guarantee you that I spend more time on the mtn. than you ever thought of. IF your buddy treed 4 cats in the same canyon.....there's a 90% probability it was a female and kittens. I'll tell you what mr. You come to Northeastern Ut and I'll buy you and your wife a steak dinner for every legitamate lion track you find..........How's that? YOUR the one mistaken...you guys see a lion track cross a canyon several times, and all of the sudden you think there's a million cats.I would LOVE to take a few of you on a death march or two just to try to keep a dog 1/2 way trained.
;-)

Pro,
I agree people that kill BUCKS are not doing all the damage, but what about all the doe tags they have given out over the years? They claim most of it is to get buck to doe ratios in perspective??????? Well if you don't kill as many bucks the buck to doe ratios will be more in check as to not have to kill does....am I correct or is this not logic?

 

[BowHuntr]

Trying to pin the blame on one factor, such as cats, as to why the deer herd isn't what it was 20 years ago can't really be justified. Like others have said it is more likely a combination of factors, with loss of habitat being one of the most important, if not the most important. Especially loss of critical winter range.

Overall deer are more difficult to manage then elk, but still believe Utah could be doing a better job. Accurate population estimates are more difficult to make, which makes it more difficult to say if numbers and tags are being managed and issued in the best interest of the herd. Breaking down the state into smaller units would definitely be more helpful, in my opinion.

BowHuntr

 

[Hawkeye]

I think that we would all agree with Robiland that we would like to see Utah?s deer herds improved. What we disagree on is what exactly is the problem (or are the problems) facing mule deer in Utah. I personally think there are many problems that need to be addressed. In my opinion, the five major problems are the following:

1. Poor Management - Utah needs to go to smaller units that can be monitored and managed more carefully. Breaking the entire state up into five general units is not enough. We need to micro manage each specific herd. For instance, there probably areas in each general unit that have good deer numbers and decent buck-to-doe ratios. There are also areas that are heavily over hunted and should be temporarily shut down. We also need to re-evaluate the number of tags given out. In many general areas, nearly every yearly buck is shot during its first season. There needs to be more of a balance between opportunity and quality. Lastly, the DWR cannot keep treating general deer tags as the ?cash cow? to fund its operation. As long as their operating budget is tied directly to license sales, they will never have the institutional backbone to make the difficult but correct choices.

2. Winter Range - This is huge problem in certain areas of the state and a lesser problem in other areas. Obviously, the mule deer along the Wasatch Front face a unique challenge as we continue to build homes higher and higher up the benches. However, winter range is also a problem is more rural areas. In many areas, the DWR issues large numbers of depredation and doe tags to thin out herds that are ?damaging? agricultural property. We need to look for ways to (1) protect winter range areas; and (2) improve winter range areas so as to maximize the holding capacity.

3. Predators - I agree with Robiland that predators are a problem. However, in addition to cougars, I would include black bears and coyotes in the equation. Although I don't think we should eradicate all bears, cougars and coyotes (well, maybe coyotes), I do think that there is a simple corollary: less predators = more deer. I will leave it to the biologists and those with experience and expertise in this area to determine the proper balance between deer and predators.

4. Elk - I love elk but there is no doubt that they are adversely affecting our deer herds. I know I will get lectured by someone that ?deer are browsers? and ?elk are grazers? but my experience has shown that increased elk numbers usually results in decreased deer numbers. I am happy that Utah?s elk are doing well and we are killing some great bulls. However, I would like to see more areas in the state where elk are hunted very heavily in order to provide more opportunity for deer. If this occurs, I think you will see increased quantity and quality in the mule deer herds.

5. Access - I own an ATV and I often use them for hunting. However, I think that we need to shut down more roads and restrict the areas where vehicles and ATV?s can travel. We need more remote areas where deer to go and avoid pressure. After all, God blessed us all with legs. Let's use them.

In closing, I know there are many other factors that could be added to my list. However, the five problems set forth above are in my opinion the primary problems facing Utah?s mule deer. There is no easy solution to any of these problems. But we can make progress if we work together and are willing to sacrifice. For example, this past year I had opportunities on more big deer than I have had in the last several years combined. What was the difference? I was hunting an area that was remote, had few roads and was limited to archery only. As a result, there are some really nice bucks. I did not harvest one of these deer but I sure had fun chasing them. Sorry for the rambling message but I have some strong feelings on the issue. Let me know if you agree with me or if you think I an way off base. I look forward to reading your thoughts and comments.

Hawkeye

 

[proutdoors]

CATMAN wrote:
"Pro,
I agree people that kill BUCKS are not doing all the damage, but what about all the doe tags they have given out over the years? They claim most of it is to get buck to doe ratios in perspective??????? Well if you don't kill as many bucks the buck to doe ratios will be more in check as to not have to kill does....am I correct or is this not logic?"

I don't believe the DWR EVER kills does to bump up the buck/doe ratio. Doe tags are issued for only two reasons; 1)deperdation, this is due to crop damage of landowners/farmers. 2)control over-all herd population numbers, this only happens when the DWR deems there are more deer than the winter range can sustain.

Just because we desire more deer doesn't mean they can be sustained. The HABITAT is the key, without habitat, it matters not if every predator is removed, and every region turned in LE. Mule deer numbers today are HIGHER than they were when the pioneers 'discovered' Utah, by far. There are MORE mule deer today than 5 years ago as well. Deer numbers are on the rise, and as long as we avoid severe weather, they will continue to INCREASE. Deer are not like elk, they are affected by weather much more drastically than elk, they are more vulnerable to diseases, and they're diet is less diverse.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[Mulehound]

I happen to know the fellow doing the lion study on the Monroe right now. I talked to him on the phone last night, He has not caught a Tom on the mountain yet this year. Since the hunt was rained in he has caught some young female lions. What is Robiland's buddys name, would like to know. I have been chasing lions since 1980, and there are less now by far. Talking about deer in the early eighties the Books were loaded with deer. In fact the DWR decided they needed to do something about it so we had doe hunts on the winter range for years, guess what the deer population crashed while the elk syrocketed. I don't think deer and elk get along all that well, where we see a lot of elk there are few deer. Just my two cents on the subject.

Mulehound.

 

[quickdrawkinker]

>I think that we would all
>agree with Robiland that we
>would like to see Utah?s
>deer herds improved. What
>we disagree on is what
>exactly is the problem (or
>are the problems) facing mule
>deer in Utah. I
>personally think there are many
>problems that need to be
>addressed. In my opinion,
>the five major problems are
>the following:
>
>1. Poor Management - Utah
>needs to go to smaller
>units that can be monitored
>and managed more carefully.
>Breaking the entire state up
>into five general units is
>not enough. We need
>to micro manage each specific
>herd. For instance, there
>probably areas in each general
>unit that have good deer
>numbers and decent buck-to-doe ratios.
> There are also areas
>that are heavily over hunted
>and should be temporarily shut
>down. We also need
>to re-evaluate the number of
>tags given out. In
>many general areas, nearly every
>yearly buck is shot during
>its first season. There
>needs to be more of
>a balance between opportunity and
>quality. Lastly, the DWR
>cannot keep treating general deer
>tags as the ?cash cow?
>to fund its operation.
>As long as their operating
>budget is tied directly to
>license sales, they will never
>have the institutional backbone to
>make the difficult but correct
>choices.
>
>2. Winter Range - This
>is huge problem in certain
>areas of the state and
>a lesser problem in other
>areas. Obviously, the mule
>deer along the Wasatch Front
>face a unique challenge as
>we continue to build homes
>higher and higher up the
>benches. However, winter range
>is also a problem is
>more rural areas. In
>many areas, the DWR issues
>large numbers of depredation and
>doe tags to thin out
>herds that are ?damaging? agricultural
>property. We need to
>look for ways to (1)
>protect winter range areas; and
>(2) improve winter range areas
>so as to maximize the
>holding capacity.
>
>3. Predators - I agree
>with Robiland that predators are
>a problem. However, in
>addition to cougars, I would
>include black bears and coyotes
>in the equation. Although
>I don't think we should
>eradicate all bears, cougars and
>coyotes (well, maybe coyotes), I
>do think that there is
>a simple corollary: less predators
>= more deer. I
>will leave it to the
>biologists and those with experience
>and expertise in this area
>to determine the proper balance
>between deer and predators.
>
>4. Elk - I love
>elk but there is no
>doubt that they are adversely
>affecting our deer herds.
>I know I will get
>lectured by someone that ?deer
>are browsers? and ?elk are
>grazers? but my experience has
>shown that increased elk numbers
>usually results in decreased deer
>numbers. I am happy
>that Utah?s elk are doing
>well and we are killing
>some great bulls. However,
>I would like to see
>more areas in the state
>where elk are hunted very
>heavily in order to provide
>more opportunity for deer.
>If this occurs, I think
>you will see increased quantity
>and quality in the mule
>deer herds.
>
>5. Access - I own
>an ATV and I often
>use them for hunting.
>However, I think that we
>need to shut down more
>roads and restrict the areas
>where vehicles and ATV?s can
>travel. We need more
>remote areas where deer to
>go and avoid pressure.
>After all, God blessed us
>all with legs. Let's
>use them.
>
>In closing, I know there are
>many other factors that could
>be added to my list.
> However, the five problems
>set forth above are in
>my opinion the primary problems
>facing Utah?s mule deer.
>There is no easy solution
>to any of these problems.
> But we can make
>progress if we work together
>and are willing to sacrifice.
> For example, this past
>year I had opportunities on
>more big deer than I
>have had in the last
>several years combined. What
>was the difference? I
>was hunting an area that
>was remote, had few roads
>and was limited to archery
>only. As a result,
>there are some really nice
>bucks. I did not
>harvest one of these deer
>but I sure had fun
>chasing them. Sorry for
>the rambling message but I
>have some strong feelings on
>the issue. Let me
>know if you agree with
>me or if you think
>I an way off base.
> I look forward to
>reading your thoughts and comments.
>
>
>Hawkeye


WOW! AMEN BROTHER! HAWKEYE FOR PREZ!

 

[pumaguy]

>Just for your info for some
>of you NON utards out
>there. I know a
>guy that wanted to go
>chase cats. NOW THIS
>IS WHAT HE TOLD ME.
>
>
>He went down to Monroe.
>Brought his dogs to try
>and tree some cats.
>In ONE (that is the
># 1) (singular) canyon up
>ontop of monroe, he brought
>5 dogs and treed 4
>diferent cats in that one
>little area.
>
>We have a cabin up ontop
>of Monroe. We never
>used to see cats or
>tracks. We see cats
>every so often, and tracks
>all of the time.
>
>Now don't sit there and tell
>me that the cougars are
>not the problem. get
>out and look for your
>selves.
>
>Look at the study they did
>a few years ago.
>Over 500 cats from the
>point of the mountain by
>SLC down to Spanish Fork,
>Payson area. Thats just
>in the west facing slopes.
> Do the Math, cougars
>kill an average of 1
>deer a week. Thats
>500 in a week.
>Thousands a year, and the
>cats are'nt the problem why
>don't you guys stop smokin
>crack.
>
>If you want to find a
>predator, you need to think
>like a predator, not like
>a city slicker.



Maybe you shouldn't believe what "he told you". If he spent all winter in that canyon, maybe. Definately not one day or one trip unless it was a female with her young ones that hadn't wandered off on their own yet. As far as 500 cats from the point of the mountain to Spanish Fork, who did that study? It's not an accurate estimate by any means. Stop believing everything you hear.

 

[thebuckstopshere]

Utah doesn't have a deer herd?

I must be looking for deer in the wrong places.

I might bite if it said "Utah trophy mule deer problem."

 

[Robiland]

You guys are funny. Just because I've personly have seen cougars and tracks on a mountain, I am a liar. My buddy is a liar. I agree 100% with Hawkeye. All I am saying is that I think that there are quite a few lion. Yes, Habitat is #1, I just see all the houses in the foothills and it makes me mad, because all winter I see deer in town and people are mad.

Just so you all don't think Im a liar about cougars on monroe, I was fishing at Upper Box Creek. I heard a funny sound or cry. I looked across the lake and a doe was running 100 mph's(I know thats an exageration, don't take that as scripture). Right behind her was a fawn with a cougar on its tail. I watched the lion swipe and knock the fawn over. They were in the pines on the south end of the lake. After just a few seconds, you could here the fawn cry. It was neat to here and see, but sad.

I know that this is just one experience, one lion, and one fawn, but this is what I think is a problem, not the only problem, but one of the many just like Hawkeye mentioned.

 

[Robiland]

Just one more thing. I do think that Ryan Hatch knows alot about Mule Deer, if not more than any of us. I've heard him say in several videos that lions are a problem. But he lies too, right????

 

[pumaguy]

Isn't anyone calling you a liar, just telling you how it is. Check your facts and don't believe all you hear. The houndsmen on this site have more knowledge of cougars than most any hunter and all of them I know have as much passion for hunting deer as you. The problem is many deer hunters think killing every lion will automatically mean a 200 inch buck on their wall every year. I don't want to see all the cats gone, because it isn't going to fix the deer.

 

[nvmuley]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-08 AT 07:40AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-08 AT 07:39?AM (MST)

Think about this with some perspective on history. We had LOTS of deer in the 70's and 80's and a lot less predators. Oh sure we've lost some winter range and had some habitat destruction in some areas, but not statewide or even western states US wide. Many mule deer areas are as untouched now as they were in the past, winter range included. Yet mule deer numbers are lower everywhere. Why? And at the same time, all predator numbers are much higher now than they were historically in the 70's and 80's. If plant eaters can over graze their browse,,,,,, why cannot predators "overgraze" their "browse" ,,,, mule deer? And it doesn't matter if the deer are killed as fawns by eagles, bears, bobcats or coyotes or as adults by lions,, a dead deer is dead deer. For the most part, hunters take bucks and the does are still getting bred. Controlled hunting should not make the herd decrease in size.

----------------------------------------
Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.

 

[proutdoors]

nvmuley, there are many parts of the state undeveloped I'll give you that. But, that does NOT mean they haven't been 'degraded' in value as far as feed. Utah had several years of severe drought, many areas are STILL recovering. Cheatgrass and other useless grass/brush has taken over many winter range terrian.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[nvmuley]

In most cases the decrease in the deer herds occurred long before the fires.
As with many things, when you get away from the basics, performance suffers.
Here's some facts that all sportsman should be aware of. The Kaibab deer herd in 1906 was estimated at 3-4,000 animals. Theodore Roosevelt created the Grand Canyon Nat'l Preserve and 6,200 predators were removed. In just 20 years the herd grew to 100,000 deer! That despite all the ups and downs of weather during this period. Mule deer are survivors, they evolved with drought. During the severe winter of 23-24, 60,000 deer starved to death.
So to deny that predators have no impact, is to deny what has actually happened in history. No, we cannot remove all the predators with such a massive campaign, but they do have an impact.


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Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.

 

[Hawkeye]

I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments, especially those from nvmuley. I think that both nvmuley and robiland are right-predators are a significant problem for Utah's muley deer herds. They are not the only problem (neither of them said they were) but they certainly have to be considered as we look at ways to improve our deer herds. Although I don't hunt bears and cougars in Utah, I would support an increase in tags for these species. In the meantime, all of us can go out a smoke a few coyotes. Coyotes are considered varmints and I have not heard anyone advocating for their protection.

Hawkeye

 

[Daxter]

nvmuley Said:

>Think about this with some perspective
>on history. We had LOTS
>of deer in the 70's
>and 80's and a lot
>less predators. Oh sure we've
>lost some winter range and
>had some habitat destruction in
>some areas, but not statewide
>or even western states US
>wide. Many mule deer areas
>are as untouched now as
>they were in the past,
>winter range included. Yet mule
>deer numbers are lower everywhere.
>Why? And at the same
>time, all predator numbers are
>much higher now than they
>were historically in the 70's
>and 80's. If plant eaters
>can over graze their browse,,,,,,
>why cannot predators "overgraze" their
>"browse" ,,,, mule deer? And
>it doesn't matter if the
>deer are killed as fawns
>by eagles, bears, bobcats or
>coyotes or as adults by
>lions,, a dead deer is
>dead deer. For the most
>part, hunters take bucks and
>the does are still getting
>bred. Controlled hunting should not
>make the herd decrease in
>size.


NVMuley, you make some good points, but I have some different ideas regarding mule deer habitats.

I think that habitat has changed drastically even in seemingly "untouched" areas. Things like incroachment on brush communities by Pinon and Juniper (PJ), and cheatgrass have made major, major impacts on mule deer ranges throughout the great basin. These large scale impacts to vegetative communities are occuring in areas that seem relatively undisturbed (often that is part of the cause). Have you ever looked at the ground cover and plant understory whey walking through a thick stand of PJ? There is nothing! Deer will eat limited quantities of PJ, but they need other stuff to survive.

When you think about these large scale changes to essential plant communities, drought, highway mortality, loss of critical winter range, and predation it can be overwhelming. In my estimation, these are the factors that most need to be addressed to ensure that we have healthy mule deer populations in the future.

Hunting pressure plays a huge part in shaping trophy quality of a deer herd, but does not play a major role in affecting population size, unless you are hunting does.


Here are a couple before and after picures showing what PJ stands have done over the last 60 years. Look at the change in density of the PJ! There are lots more good pics like these at http://extension.usu.edu/rra/index.htm


Pine Valley Utah 1943

Same Place in Pine Valley Utah in 2004

Dax

 

[nvmuley]

Daxter,
Yep, I agree with your points. Habitat deterioration is and has occurred and I guess some change is always going to occur. Each deer herd has local issues to contend with.
But I still visit areas that I used to in the late 70's, early 80's. The higher summer range areas, and the deer are just not there like they were then. And these areas seem to have undisturbed winter range. No heavy P/J encrouchment. It's more big sage/juniper country. Why are the deer not there?
I lived through the times of heavy federal predator control efforts and saw what resulted. I can compare animal populations back then compared to the present day. Not saying it was right or wrong, but I saw the results. More deer, more sagehen,,, more everything. The pendulum has swung to far to the other end of the scale. We can't love, worship and protect all predators and still have higher levels of prey species like deer. Hunters want more deer, animal rights activists lobby for complete protection of wolves and lions. Truth is they actually want us hunters to be eliminated. We do have the knowledge to manage all the animals, maybe just not the political will or the power to do so With the economic impact hunters have, I would think increasing tags and providing more game would be a priority, but then again, I'm a hunter
Coyotes need 2 pounds of meat each day. Lions need 8-10 pounds each day. That's a lot of killing on their part. I spend about 2-3 out of every 4 days traveling the back country from Nov to the end of Feb.. I may go weeks without seeing any lion tracks and then,,, boom. They are on the move and I've seen as many as 5 fresh lion tracks in one day. With the extended cold fronts and snow cover to show their tracks, coyotes everywhere.


----------------------------------------
Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.

 

[nvmuley]

We had some of the largest deer harvests here in NV in the 80's. I think 1988 was the highest. That's only 20 years ago. Now we have half the deer we had then.
I doubt we have half the deer food available that was available in 1988.
I do think high predator number card can "trump" the habitat card.
Dead deer don't eat


----------------------------------------
Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.

 

[Packout]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-08 AT 11:37AM (MST)[p]Good post Dax and also nvmuley.

Poison was a huge reason for the increase of deer populations into the late 70s. Poison killed coyotes, bears, lions, eagles, dogs, etc. Man is not efficient in controlling predators without the use of poison. Now poison is outlawed we will never get a good hold on the predator situation. (I am not saying we should use poison once again, just that poison was the way to control predators)

As for solutions to the problem. If the doe population is bred at a sufficient rate, then bucks are not the problem with herd growth. Look at doe : fawn ratios across the state and most every unit, from the Henry Mtns to the Cache, has comparable fawning ratios. So bucks are not the problem with herd growth. Survival of those fawns is the problem.

Cutting hunting numbers, micromanaging as some call for, is not the answer to overall herd growth. More bucks yes. Bigger bucks, yes. But not more fawns and not more doe. The solution to growing the Deer Herd lies elsewhere; predator control, habitat improvements, fencing roadways, providing road crossings on migratory routes, maybe restricting public access to fawning areas (we do that for elk), reducing elk herd numbers, etc.

 

[abutonic]

I am just putting my two cents in, but I have been up in the bountiful and farmington areas several times in the past couple of years and seen 4 cougars on separate occasions- middle of the day- And this year hunting in the yost area I have 3 of them on video coming down a draw after an unsuccesfull hunt on a herd of deer- They actually split off from each other and one tried circling around my friend and I and we wasted no time leaving the area just in case - I don't know how many there are in the surrounding mountains but there seems to be a lot more and I have seen 6 or 7 in the past couple of years. Not arguing just thinking about what everyone is saying

 

[Rammu]

Ok then PRO.. Explain to me why in sanpete county or maybe the gunnison valley area to be specific why the habitat is pretty much the same as it was 30 years ago, yes there are more atv trails but the deer quality and numbers are pothetically down and just get worse each year? Answer: Too damn many hunters year after year! Every human north of Nephi head right to the Manti unit and kill every 2 point that moves and turn that mountain into a circus! And also poaching would be a problem. Whatever mature buck that remains after the hunting season usually ends up getting killed by poaching during winter months.

It is not a habitat issue down there

 

[nebo12000]

Just thought you would like to know that the DWR folks are are in the process of coming up with a proposal to divide the state up into smaller hunting units. They are using the current "management units" as a starting point. I haven't heard or seen anything final yet. The proposal was brought to the RAC's attention last Sept. I personally am very much in favor of creating smaller hunting regions. The central region big game manager is against it. It does create more work for him because he would have to write a "management plan" for each hunting region within his assigned management duties.

There is a great need for more of a micro-management approach to managing the deer herds. There are many instances where some areas of a region are over management objectives, while other areas are struggling to get to even minimal objective numbers. The DWR currently looks mostly at overall numbers on a region basis, not at specific areas that are in dire need of restriction and management. Smaller, more geographically associated hunting units would allow quicker and more effective management changes, that would in turn allow better recovery of deer herds.

Are we willing, as hunters, to not have "our personal hunting grounds" available to us to hunt every year ? I am quite willing and even expect the DWR to do whats best for the health and vitality of the deer herds, not withstanding the effect it might have on me in regards to hunting every year.

Contact your RAC members and let them know how you feel.-

 

[blazingsaddle]

Could it be an access issue for the manti area deer? Utah has a road/atv trail on most every ridge, and in every canyon. In a lot of areas in the state the deer have no where to hide from the hunters and their 500+ yard guns. Its hard to hike more than a mile and not be half way to another road.
Not knocking ATVs, we have them too, but people don't like to hike very far to hunt. Cause when they shoot their two point, its hard to get back to camp. So they hunt in places that are VERY accessable.
I would love to see less roads/atv trails in the wilderness. I believe more bucks would make it through a hunt, leaving them for people who are willing to go get them.
As for the numbers being down overall, I don't think that the harvesting of bucks on the hunts is a huge factor.
HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT! But kill every predator you can as well.

 

[proutdoors]

Since I grew up in the Gunnison valley, I'll answer your questions Rammu. I pasted this well thoughout and FACTUAL answer from another site:

"The thing that led to the rise, AND fall of mule deer, was the transformation from grassland type habitats, into the sage brush steppe communities, the climax of the sage communities, and now the decline. The severe overgrazing of the grasslands from the 1850s to the early 1934s (stopped by the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934) led to massive encroachment of the sage into the grasslands. As the sage communities aged, they hit their climax in development in the late 1950s into the late '60s or maybe early 70s. This is the point when they had the greatest nutritional value, and were the right height for both foraging for young and old deer, as well as tall enough to offer protection from the elements and predetors. Of course this era also included the near total elimination of non-human predation, and highways were still under development - so the only real way to kill deer off was with hunting. Now couple all of this with a policy of putting out every single wildfire anywhere - which didn't allow the sage communities to regenerate as they should - and the table was set for HUGE deer numbers for a while.

But when sage brush gets old, it loses its nutritional value, and begins dying off. That die off over the last 30 years is now the greatest contributing factor to decreasing mule deer populations. there are still several times more deer in Utah than in the 1840s when the pioneers arrived and begin establishing permanent towns.

There is more to this, but this is too long of a post already. I'll cut to the chase of my opinion though -

The single most significant event in the management of mule deer in Utah in the past 30 years, was the winter kill of '92-93 during the legislative session. It was at that point that the pendelum swung from the legislature dictating deer management, and turned more of it to the professionals at DWR. It certainly hasn't been a cakewalk since then, but it is better now than prior to that time of 400,000 tags sold every year regardless of how the population was doing."

There you go. There are PLENTY of bucks on the Manti, even in the Gunnison valley area to breed the does, the main reasons fo rthe low deer numbers in HABITAT, way to many roads/ATV trails/predators. An increase in bucks w/o an increase in does would DECREASE the number of famns born each spring, not sure how that would help increase overall deer numbers.?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[BigChicken]

The trusted houndsmen here say that there are fewer cougars than in years past. But to that I say, of course there are fewer cougars . . . because there are fewer deer! The two species are inseparably connected and it's the ratio between the two that matters. I don't know what that ratio is (I'm sure it varies by area) but the smaller our deer population gets, the more drastic the effects of the cougar can be. Here's a scenario that I put together to illustrate (not scientific, just mathematical so please don't "taze me, bros"):

The Good (2:200 ratio):
If there were two cougars on a mountain with 200 deer, and assuming each will eat one deer per week (2x52=approx. 100), hopefully the remaining 100 deer will be able to replace their numbers with each year with new fawns (I believe they call this "recruitment"). Peace and harmony, happy cougars, happy deer, happy hunters.

The Bad (2:100 ratio):
If there were two cougars on that mountain with only 100 deer (think winter kill), assuming each will eat one deer per week (2x52=approx. 100), potentially no deer or a very small number would remain after one year. The few deer that did remained would have a very hard time building their population back up, especially if the cougars remained in the area. Concerned cougars, very concerned deer, unhappy hunters.

The Ugly (1:20 ratio):
The same were two cougars on a mountain now with only 20 deer (see above), and assuming each will eat one deer per week (2x10=20), potentially no deer will remain and the cougars will either leave the area or starve (after the rabbits and grouse are gone that is). With the cougars gone hopefully a few deer could move in and slowly repopulate the area but the key word is "slowly". Ain't nobody happy.

Obviously, cougars are not to blame for the plight of the mule deer but they certainly aren't going to help it at all either, especially if there needs to be a "recovery". So to me, it would be in the interest of the houndsmen to take out more of you cats now, let the deer herd recover, then you can have your cats back. Otherwise we all might come out losers in the end.

 

[Daxter]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-08 AT 06:45PM (MST)[p]Going to a smaller areas and unit by unit management is like "re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic" if we keep the buck to doe ratio objective at 15/100 and continue to give 97,000 buck tags. When I listened to the Big Game coordinator present the idea at one of the RAC meetings I thought it sounded horrible. I am really disturbed to hear so many hunters thinking it would be a good thing that would move us toward CO or NV style management. The way it was proposed, it would not.

Unless a unit by unit general deer hunt was accompanied by significant tag cuts (or some other creative method for reducing buck mortality) all it will do is; 1). limit hunters, 2). increase the DWR's administrative workload and operating budget, and 3) take any unit that starts to do well and pull it right back into mediocrity. The only way small unit deer management in UT might work would be if we couldn't add tags to a unit until the B/D ratio exceeded 25/100, and we had to subtract tags from any unit below 15/100.

The quality vs. opportunity thing really is a tough balancing act. I want the opportunity to be there, but wish the quality were higher as well. I think there are solutions to be found, but it may require both wildlife managers and hunters to take a step or two outside of their comfort zones. So many sportsmen spend so much time/energy/effort arguing about how to divide up an increasingly smaller and smaller pie, and don't focus much on how to make the pie bigger.

WE HAVE TO MAKE GROWING MORE DEER OUR NUMBER ONE PRIORITY, after that folks can hash out how they want to hunt bucks. Sure how you manage buck hunters is the quickest way to get a response in bucks, but it DOES NOT have a significant effect on growing or shrinking a deer population.

Just my $0.02

Dax

 

[Packout]

Dax, I must say I completely enjoyed reading your post. It was perfect.

 

[proutdoors]

This link is very informative: http://www.createstrat.com/muledeerinthewest/westthatwas.html

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[rancher05]

I agree that there are too many lion's. I see more and more tracks each year and it's getting out of hand.
I have a problem how ever with the archery season. I enjoy archery hunting but i think the season is too long. I think we can save some deer by cutting the season to from three weeks down to two weeks and not making it a state wide hunt. I think that it should be in the regions just like the loader & rifle seasons. I also think that the youngsters need to pass a course on archery ethics and shooting ability. i've seen and heard too many wounded deer from the youngsters letting the arrows fly and I'm sure alot of the shot's are not reasonalbe shot's that should not have been taken.
That's just my oppion, take it for what it's worth.

 

[slcmuley]

thanx for the link PRO informative like you said.i think you have done enough with the I400 for now.when can you start on the muley initiative all game management plans are up in 2008 here in utah and i am wondering what habitat restorations have been done.and if any highway road kill issues have been addressed i.e. high fences with under road tunnels for crossing.what happened to the jordanelle deer crosswalks?man i saw alot of deer hit on those crosswalks the deer used them the cars just didn't slow down.not many people watch the side of the roads for deer like we do.they needed some sort of a sensor that would detect deer and start a flashing light or something.our highways are littered with road kill right now and with the weather conditions this year we will probably lose 20-25% percent of our herds.our current managament plan states that a 10-15% winterkill is normal.it also states that our herd was around 280,000 when the current plan started.and we were trying to bring that up to 320,000 in 2008.DO YOU GUYS THINK WE MADE IT?

 

[Hunterted]

What is wrong with Utah's deer herd can be summed up in one word.


CHEATGRASS!!!!

 

[Antler1]

Robiland,
PM me the name of canyon on Monroe with all the cats. We had five guys last Saturday cutting and never cut a track on Monroe, Beaver or Dutton.

 

[JakeS]

I am no expert but I will share my experience. I recently starting hunting an area that is NOT GRAZED. After getting a little ways off the road the deer are everywhere. Big bucks, small buck does you name it they are there. the grass is up past my waist in the summer. I think grazing and the resulting habitat change is a major reason for the decline of utahs deer. Even in sanpete county where they have not lost habitat ot homes, they have lost feed to cows.
p.s. RAMMU is gay.

 

[SMELLYBUCK]

Robiland,

If there is no deer herd in Utah, why is there a major concern right now that the "deer herd" is starving to death and we are losing much of it.

The deer are starving right now in areas where the deer don't have access to good stands of sagebrush. Logan, Ogden, Heber, East Canyon - only a small portion of the land is covered by sage in these areas. The winter range is either grass heavy or house heavy. (Wyoming has worse winters but more sagebrush.)

How can more units fix the problem of poor winter habitat? We could change the amount of units from 5 to 5,000 but deer in Logan, Ogden, Heber, and East Canyon still will not be able to find winter range.

This winter will take far more deer than the gun or preditor. We need to increase our winter range or accept the fact that the carrying capacity of the land is not what it once was!!!! Reducing tags, micromanaging units, or killing more preditors are not long-term solutions. The real problem is winter range and that will take an enormous amount of money to fix. Few hunters seem to understand the importance of good habitat as I see too much focus on suggestions that are short-term, "rob peter to pay paul" mentality.

Just my 2 cents.

ci

 

[Robiland]

Neilson canyon. It's up top. There are only 2 ways to the canyon. From the monroe side. Just as you get to the pines there is a little trail. It is steep and rocky and rugged. The other way is though my property that is right on top. Go past the peak turn off, keep going, just as you get on top, there is a fence and a sign that says Robison Family Trust. That is our property(family). It backs up to the ledges of the peak. It drops off into a steep rugged area. No 4-wheeler trail anymore. Too much dead fall. Walk in only. This area covers the north end of the peak. Look at google earth. Go from the peak to neilson canyon. Any how, There has been a few bears around the last few summers also.