How to get more big bucks in Utah

P

proutdoors

Guest
Alright ktc, this is for you. You have asked for what I think should/could be done to get more big bucks in Utah.

There is only TWO solutions, one I like and support, the other I strongly oppose.

1)Increase the overall deer herd population. More deer equals more bucks, simply enough. Except getting deer numbers up is tricky and takes work and Mother Nature's help. Increase habitat and decrease road kills, predators, and maintain the same number of buck tags. Right now on general season areas the buck:doe ratio is 17:100, which ensures a fair number of mature bucks in the deer population.

2)Decrease the number of buck tags, which decreases opportunity and does little/nothing to help the health of the herds. If we want to see the northern region rebound quicker from this winter, we should ask for MORE bucks to be killed, which will allow MORE does in the herd, which means MORE fanws to be recruited into the herd.

Fire away boys! I have my kevlar vest on.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-10-08 AT 10:40AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-10-08 AT 10:39?AM (MST)

I like #2. Seems to work on the Henry Mountains and Book Cliffs.

Damn my head is spinning from getting my ass kicked in the wolf debate! Yup#2! While working on #1. Is that an option? #2 first AND #1?

BUT NOT MORE DEAD BUCKS ON #2? Gawd pro, what the hell kind of question is this? Give me option #3?
 
I don't like #2 because the future of hunting is hunter recruitment, and by LIMITING the number of tags more than what they are already will result in less recruitment, which is NOT good for ANY hunters. The Henries is a great trophy unit, but what is YOUR solution for all those who just want to hunt? Should we only worry anout the 'trophy' hunters, or should we worry about ALL hunters?

#1 works, and IS working.

I am all for finding a magic #3, you figure it out and I'll jump on board.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
just trying to get up to speed here,why would we want to kill more bucks in order to bring the herd back? i'll put in a vote for more habitat restoration and closing areas that got hit the hardest.habitat projects are expensive but alot of the manpower could be obtained from our DH program, and this site proves how dedicated some of our sportsman are.mail bitterbrush seeds out with our deer tags and have us start them at home and then transplant them to our hunting areas.the areas with more hunters would get more habitat restoration. the northern region needs to be broke into 6-8 regions.IMHO the sooner the better.this way the whole region wouldn't be shut down just parts of it.and mother nature will always be a huge factor especially in the north.if the habitat is there for them all we can do is hope for the best.with the increased tag sales this year the money should be there. HOPE THE NEW MANAGEMENT PLAN NEXT YEAR HELPS US ALONG!
 
You have to bite the bullet and cut back buck tags. It is the easiset and offers the quickest results i.e. 3-5 years. You can't have both opportunity and quality in this day and age. One will suffer.

That and peer pressure to stop "fill the tag mentality". People talk of holding out for a 150 and 160 class bucks....I wouldn't know because I can't imagine spending 10 minutes to tape out a 2 year old buck. They are young bucks and easy to kill, thus they get mowed down every year. I know the thought is " if I don't shoot him someone else will." To keep opportunity and have quality there has to be a paradigm shift in sense to get away from the "I got my buck this year, how-bout you?" mentality and more towards a conservative approach to sustaining the long term quality and age-class representation within the deer herds. "Go big or go home" should be the mantra for those who really want quality deer hunting. Its about walking the walk, not talking the talk.

Before anyone gets their underwear in a knot, this obviously shouldn't apply to young early teen hunters who are just getting into this deer hunting world. They need to get a buck or cow elk kill under their belt before they start thinking about whomping a 30 incher.

That being said, I personally believe that PJ encroachment is and has had a far greater impact on deer range than has been acknowleged. Every one of these trees eliminates about 150-200 square feet of sagebrush underneath the canopy of the tree as it grows up out of sagebrush. We really should be lopping off thousands of these little pinions and junipers with chainsaws every year. Keep the mature sage intact and cut off these little cancers of the winter range.
 
BUCKSPY,

I just got back from a shed hunting trip on the Kaibab.I noticed several places where they have been thinning the PJ's. But they way they are doing it has to be wrong.....They are dozing them over with catapillers and tearing up the sage in the process. I would think that a group of men/women with chainsaws would be alot easier on the sage and almost as effective....But what do I know..

And your right,when the Pj's get thick there is no sage below the canopy.


horsepoop.gif
 
"You have to bite the bullet and cut back buck tags. It is the easiset and offers the quickest results i.e. 3-5 years. You can't have both opportunity and quality in this day and age. One will suffer."

I disagree. 'Biting the bullet' by cutting tags helps neither in the short term or long term. All it would do is hurt revenue AND keeps people who just want to hunt from doing just that. I see NO good reason we can't have BOTH opportunity and quality in Utah.

We can either kill fewer bucks, or grow MORE bucks. I'll take the latter.

slcmuley, the reason killing MORE bucks in areas where the herds were hit hard by the winter is less bucks will make way for more does, more does means more fawns, more fawns means more deer down the road. I can post the math if it would help.

Increased/improved habitat is the solution, and groups like SFW and MDF get that, hence the MANY projects to improve habitat. Get involved and do your part if you are serious about wanting to see the deer herd improve in quality AND quantity.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Back when they would chain huge areas in the Books Cliffs, that would end up being the best areas to hunt for about 10 years. Bring back the chaining!
 
for as long as people have lived in the western US the deer populations have gone up and down, most of the problem with mature bucks is hunting pressure, there is a lot of obsessed trophy hunters these days and the technology is better, access is easier,information is greater ect. habitat improvments are good and controlling access[wilderness areas ect]is good and more area specific managment[nevada,colorado]is good. but the good old days aren't comming back. and in my opinion young people need to have a good experence when hunting to become life long supporters of the sport.
 
Buck:doe ratios are as high now as back in the 'hay days'. The difference is the number of deer, not the number of bucks per 100 does.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
what was there 2 maybe 3 times as many deer in the 40s or the 60s but there was maybe ten times as many big mature deer killed and that was when people didnt trophy hunt as much as now. I remmember going into anderson taxidermy shop in SLC in the early 70s ,there was lots and lots of big bucks I was just a kid shooting rock chucks when I saw by far the biggest non typical I have ever seen, that was in UT in 1974 there is just to much people pressure now to let many bucks get big, there was a wetter climate then and better forage also and 4 wheelers weren't invented
 
Hopefully this is gonna get as funny as it always does.

BUCKSPY, Gotta remember you're dealing with a bunch of tards here. If we didn't think of it, it isn't so, doesn't work, etc.... ;-) and we've got a conservation tag, habitat project to fix that...

Look how you guys got Colorado all screwed up by "bitting the bullet." We wouldn't think of doing that to our deer herds!

Kill more bucks!? You gotta andmit it pro that's some funny CHIT! Damn bucks eating up all of the winterange anyways-I say kill 'em all!!!

Doe hunts to increase buck to doe ratios...

Increase season dates to lower success...

Thank HEAVEN for out of state hunts!!!
 
pro- more fawns doesnt necisarilly(spelling)mean more bucks to me when the range cant carry them.i feel like we should take away doe hunts and lower buck tags to help an area get to its carrying capacity.this would be easier to manage in smaller units.by the way how do you tell what a specific areas capacity is?(how much feed = how many deer?)i honestly dont know.i also dont know how they think they could possibly count all the deer in an area.i do feel that they have a decent guess.
 
Prism, do you really think cutting Utah's deer tags in half is the 'answer'? If so, is that in the best interest of ALL hunters, or just a SMALL segment of the hunting population? Of course if we turned the whole state into LIMITED ENTRY we would see bigger bucks, but at what price to the general public? Colorado can get away with SEVERELY restricted deer tags because they have THOUSANDS of OTC elk tags that are NOT an option in Utah. Hunters for the most part want to HUNT, not just dream about it. If Utah is LE for deer and elk in the bulk of the state, hunter numbers WILL dwindle, and those who still want to hunt will be SOL.

Do you also deny that when herd numbers are low due to winter kill the BEST way to get the numbers back up is maximizing of the new recruits which come from fawns? If so, I must have missed where you increase herd numbers with more males, and FEWER females.

Every region is at/above buck:doe ratio objectives of 15:100. The issue is NOT ratios, it is number of deer. Micro-managing won't change that, mainly because the objective will most likely STAY at 15:100.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>pro- more fawns doesnt necisarilly(spelling)mean
>more bucks to me when
>the range cant carry them.i
>feel like we should take
>away doe hunts and lower
>buck tags to help an
>area get to its carrying
>capacity.this would be easier to
>manage in smaller units.by the
>way how do you tell
>what a specific areas capacity
>is?(how much feed = how
>many deer?)i honestly dont know.i
>also dont know how they
>think they could possibly count
>all the deer in an
>area.i do feel that they
>have a decent guess.

The specific situation I am talking about is areas that saw significant winter kill, not areas that are at/over carrying capacity. In areas that had high winter kill, they are now under capacity, and the QUICKEST way to recover the herd numbers is to maximize recruitment, which means fawns. More fawns will hit the ground if there are more does. I am NOT saying we should go in and kill 2/3 of the bucks, but when I read/hear where people thin kwe should kill fewer bucks due to winter range I get confused as to WHY.

Couonts are done to where they count a certain percentage of the deer on a unit and project with computer modules what the total population is. I think for the most part the numbers are fairly close to being right on. Carrying capacity is based on MANY factors, but just as a pasture can carry so many cows based on available feed, same goes for carry capacity for deer/elk on a given range.

PRO


Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Utah just needs to call up Colorado on the phone and say, "How about you guys come over here and manage our deer herds for us." Slap your hands together a couple of times and say, "Wow that wasn't too hard now was it."

IMO Colorado offers quantity and quality hunts throughout the entire state that you don't have to wait an entire lifetime to hunt. They're doing something right. I lived in Utah for 29 years and have recently moved to Colorado 2 years ago. I've seen more 180 class bucks in those 2 years than I saw in 29 years living in Colorado. And yes, for those who are going to ask, I do know what a 180 class buck looks like. I took a 183" buck in 2006 and a 198" buck in 2007 and never even came close to anything like that in Utah. STANDING APPLAUSE FOR COLORADO DIVISION OF WILDLIFE!!!!
 
It was mentioned earlier that in the 40's there were 2 to 3 times as many deer. That may be true, however, they had much more land to live on. They weren't concentrated in the same area that they have now. They may be living on only a fraction of the land that they once had. Something to keep in mind.

I see the point of taking more bucks in order to increase the possibility of more buck fawns. HOwever, you will not see more mature bucks until that plan is done for 3 or 4 years.

Steve
 
Pro, I do believe if we did cut tags it would increase deer numbers, buck to doe ratios, fawn recruitment, etc. etc. overall health of our herds...faster than anything else we could do.

Go ahead and tell me that cutting tags on the Henries, Book Cliffs, and all other non migrating (out of the LE unit) deer herds aren't increasing.

Do I think it's the answer for Utah, not really. You and I both know there are more than 2 ways to skin a cat.

We could greatly reduce hunter success and increase hunter opportunity by more "primitive" weapon hunts-ie the Wastach front...

We could put an end to hunters jumping from one mountain range in our huge units to pound the crap out of another, and then onto another the following year.

Take for example the central region. The were MAJOR winterkills along the Western side of the Heber Valley, an area that winters deer from a lot of country. Any tag cuts, nope. I don't even know if it was talked about. Where are these several thousand hunters gonna go this year. I dont know maybe Nebo. I hear the deer are doing great down there. How about the Deep Creeks, they're doing great too.... You Diamond Fork boys ready for the influx of Wasatch County boys headed your way? I bet the deer aren't...

How about you southern region boys, ready for the archery hunt this year??? Ah, but success rates are low enough that it doesn't matter.

Changes to the dedicated hunter program, making all deer hunters sit out a year after harvest, yada yada yada. Speaking of which, it'd be nice ALL dedicated hunter projects actually helped out mule deer. But hey, hanging out at the ISE show isn't too bad...

Utah's hunters have plenty of opportunities to hunt stuff, just look at the proposed antlerless numbers (another flipping joke-and you talk about increasing herds???). But, hey it's opportunity. Utah's hunters should be seriously peeved at the lack in tag cuts made in norther Utah this year.


I DO NOT believe the DWRs buck to doe ratios. I've hunted other states in areas that have documented 15-20 bucks per 100 does and I can tell you that I see WAY more bucks and all deer for that matter.

Speaking of which (and I'm not trying to be a weenie), but how many out of state deer hunts have you been on??? ;-)

I'm all for habitat projects, clearing PJ forest, increasing sagebrush, etc, etc... But, there comes a time when managers have to look at the BIGGEST CONTROLLING FACTOR (that they ACTUALLY have control over), and that's you, me, and everyother gun and bow toting Utard and nonresident dupped into coming to Utah to hunt the general season...

BUT that means less $$$ and isn't that what this is really about?

Just ask the DWR. I did!!!
 
pro- is there a problem with managing for higher ratios.is there a specific ratio thats better for the animals.i dont see how using smaller units wont help us.everybody knows these certain areas that turn into a giant circus during the general hunts.i say we cut hunter #'s in these area.and force ourselves to be more diversified in where we hunt.now i think our second and third choices will come into play in the draw like they should.not trying to be arguementative here just trying to see others perspectives.
 
slcmuley, higher buck:doe ratio objhectives would DECREASE opportunity, something I do NOT support. The deer committee will be meeting in a few weeks to come up with the new Deer Management Plan, I seriously doubt the ratio objectives will be raised. JMHO

Prism,
Why would decreasing the number of bucks killed increase deer numbers?

The Henries has big bucks, but the herd population is NOT exactly exploding. If the bucks were 'thinned' out there would be more deer, but also likely slightly lower 'quality', whatever that means. Also remember, the habitat projects on those 'high priority' units has been significant which has boosted deer populations. The Henries also doesn't have elk competing with the deer for winter feed.

I agree with giving a higher percenatge of deer tags to primitive weapons would reduce hunter success and increase hunter opportunity, preaching to the choir on that one. Try and convince the rifle guys, not a dedicated bowhunter.

As I stated before, buck:doe ratios are at/over objectives region wide in ALL 5 regions now, micro-managing won't change that. It may help raise the ratio is ceratin sub-units, but w/o tag reductions it would likely result in LOWER ratios in other areas.


I agree the dedicate hunter program needs to be looked at and adjusted, and if we go to micro-managing it WILL be this year.

The only doe tags that 'should' be issued in areas that had high winter die-off would be for deperdation ONLY. If they aere issuing doe tags for other reasons then I agree it is nonsensical.

If you don't believe the DWR's ratio numbers, what are they? If you take a herd of 1000 deer with a 17:100 buck:doe ratio and 40:100 fawn ratio that equates to 115 bucks, 295 fawns, and 590 does. That is LESS than 2 bucks for every 14 does/fawns. I believe it is dang close to that everywhere I hunt on general deer areas. If you are seeing "WAY more deer" of course you will see more bucks.

I used to guide in Colorado, hunted there and Idaho on OTC permits. I say Utah compares very well to them. I live in Tooele County, and I see 170+ bucks all the time riding around on winter range. Just because they are hard to find does NOT mean they aren't there.

Buck harvest has little/NO affects on deer populations, habitat, fawn recruitment, road kill, predators, ALL have MORE affect than hunters. COntrolling hunter numbwers for buck harvest is NOT how you control deer populations, that comes from habitat and MORE DOES to deliver MORE fawns. The number of bucks in the herd, as long as it is more than 5:100 will get the does bred. Anything over that is strictly for hunter demand, NOT popualtion increases.

More deer would mean MORE $$$ for the DWR, it is in their best/self interest to maximize deer numbers, which I believe they are striving to do. Do they ever make mistakes? Hell yes. Oh, I DID ask the DWR many questions in a meeting with them last week. It is amazing what one can learn when they chosse to instead of thinking they know it all.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-10-08 AT 04:51PM (MST)[p]Pro,

I don't know much. I'm pretty simple in my thinking, and complexipal theories on game management are WAY over my head.

So, since I like simple I'll continue to hunt out of state when I can and hopefully continue to bring a nice buck or two back to Utah.

It seems pretty apparant that the UDWR knows everthing, so I'll continue to hunt where the wildlife managers are simple thinkers like me!!!

Good luck Utah-you're gonna need it! :)

BTW-Did you dodge the question on how many times YOU'VE hunted deer out of Utah? :) Or just answer it in complexical ways I don't get?
 
JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!! FRICK!!!

GOOD GAWD!!!

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

FRICK!!!

CHRIST!!!

FOR GAWDS SAKE!!!

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!! ((( BY RUS!!! )))

Pro,YOU AIN'T EVEN FIXED THE F###ING ELK HERD YET!!!

AND HERE YOU GO SCREWING WITH THE DEER HERD,WTF???

ONE THING ABOUT IT!!!

NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO YOU CAN'T #### IT UP ANY WORSE THAN IT'S ALREADY ####ED UP!!!

GIT-R-DONE!!!

JUST DON'T DO ANY OF THAT STUPID $HIT!!!

THE STUPID $HIT HAS ALREADY BEEN TRIED AND ITS ALL FAILED MISERABLY!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
.......#3 option (IMO)

Break down the the "big 5" into much smaller units and make something like the proposed I-400 elk units where SOME units are kept as "trophy units" (possibly antler point restrictions or very limited buck tag numbers)and keep some units managed as "opportunity units" to kill any sized buck.

(i have my kevlar vest on too)










Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
Its called making tradeoffs and I think at this time all western states should manage deer like Colorado and Nevada that doesnt nessesarly mean lottery tags like the henrys, that means manage areas that are smaller and more specific, roadless areas help with allowing more hunters and still have mature animals primative weapon hunts do the same, and kids that have one great hunt are more likely to keep hunting than if they have several crappy hunts and give up,
 
"BTW-Did you dodge the question on how many times YOU'VE hunted deer out of Utah? Or just answer it in complexical ways I don't get?"

Nothing 'complex' in my answer. I stated I HAVE guided in Colorado on public/private land, I have also hunted in Idaho and Colorado on general season public land. I also staed very simply and clearly that I believe Utah general areas are as good as the areas I hunted out of state.

I also stated that the DWR is planning on 'micro-managing' the deer herds starting in 2009, but I do NOT believe it will increase the number of big bucks overall nor will it increase overall deer populations. As long as the objective is 15:100 ratios, the number of bucks will remain 100% contingent on overall deer numbers which is dictated by habitat, habitat, habitat, road kill, habitat, habitat, predators, habitat, poachers, habitat, in that order.

I am at a loss why 'sportsmen' would EVER advocate reducing the number of hunters in the field statewide simplt to add a few more big bucks. Talk about spending a dollar to save a dime. INCREASE deer numbers through habitat projects, keeping predators at managable numbers, minimize road 'hazards' for deer, REDUCE atv trails/roads in deer habitat. Those are REAL solutionos, not just 'feel good' tag reductions. How long do we reduce the tag numbers? How many years? If you increase the tags the ratios go right back where they were, unless habitat is improved.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro,

I would not support shooting more bucks on the northern region. The deer numbers are down, not the habitat. Might as well keep the deer we have and grow more??

Also, the wasatch front was mentioned. The WF is hunted EVERY day from august until Dec by a ton of hunters. There is no relief. Every year gigantic bucks are killed, the herd remains in balance, and at age objective. Why?

On the WF guy's pass up "dinky" 3 points/4 points. Why?

There are No predator control actions on the WF. The herd remains in control. There are no projects to remove or help habitat on the WF. There is very little winter range on the WF. Tags are not cut and access is not denied. Even dedicated hunters can hunt the WF. Why is this area so good?

IMO, the WF offers more and better opportunity than any unit in the state. Perhaps only the Henries can beat the caliber of bucks and look at the "opportunity" to hunt down there. People have changed there "get your deer" mentality on the WF. I beleive they have done so because they have faith in the mountain. They KNOW if they keep hunting, they will be rewarded for passing the smaller bucks. They will probably NOT kill a big one, but they will get a chance to stalk a big boy! In order to get Utahn's to pass on smaller bucks, they must feel like they will see a bigger buck later, not feel like it will be the only buck he sees!

I kind of like Slam's idea, break up the huge regions into slightly smaller ones, manage a few for bigger bucks, maybe a few for Primitive weapons, and a few for the "average" hunter. We should be able to do so without cutting hunter numbers. I hope all options could be considered at the Mule deer committee and decisions are made to benefit the general season areas, not just the LE units. Keep the ideas flowing. Good healthy debate usually brings about great ideas! Have a great night!

Chad
 
pro,

Tag cuts are part of the equation. It has to be. Is it not true that Colorado has become the best mule deer state after they decided to go all draw? They have great units, good units, pretty good units, and units you can hunt every year. Pick your medicine.

All of these evry year guys will start to complain that their every year unit is not as good as the evry 5 year unit and want something done. You just cannot win in Utardville.

Habitat projects are working and are great, but the results are so slow. Yes, some 200" bucks exist somewhere. Very few of them though. Why is it any more important that these opportunity guys get their way any more than a guy who would like to see a few more mature bucks? Limit the tags and use bow and muzz. I don't care. Just DO SOMETHING! ANYTHING! If I remember right, Colorado gives less buck tags and has twice as many deer? How can Utard compare to that in terms of a quality hunt? Sorry pro, but that is bullshit.;-)
 
LAST EDITED ON May-10-08 AT 06:58PM (MST)[p]I know this is comparing crab apples to pinapples here, but look at the Deseret land and Livestocks deer herds.
I am using the Deseret as a comparison once again because it is the most incrediblely well managed unit in the state, hands down.

That ranch is hunted in tightly controlled numbers of deer tags, both public and private, based on the heard size and condition from year to year.
Plus you have doe tags as well to keep the numbers and ratios in check.

The public hunters go in unguided and can take whatever they want to kill. Now most want a huge buck of course, we all do, but most end up taking a "last day buck", whatever that may be.
If anyone has ever taken a two point off that ranch, i've never heard of it.

Now the guided "trophy hunters" are paying VERY high prices for their choice of buck. I can guarantee anybody that those guys don't kill "last day bucks" for $7K, they will go home empty before that will happen.

The result of that is an extremely well balanced & healthy aged class deer herd that consistantly produces bucks over 180" in the teens and twenties, along with a surprising number of bucks over 200" year after year. Some years are better than others though, just like anywhere.

In a nutshell, it's all about proper management.
Utah is not in a easy position right now to manage like a ranch due to many many uncontrollable factors like human growth population and the ever dwindeling winter range.
But we CAN do a better job with our predator control and habitat projects, just to name a few.

Unfortunately we as "sportsman" are a whole, and instead of fighting and arguing who's right and who's wrong, we need to unite for "our sport".
We need to find a way to make it more appealing for our youth, becuse it's future ultimately lies in THEIR hands.

Wheeeeew, that was a lot to say!!

Am i up for a Pulitzer prize now....or a darwin award?? :)











Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
In my opinion they need to sub-divide the general season units into several different units per area. Secondly they need to reduce the overall number of general season tags. I mean 40,000 tags a year? Come on that's a little too much when the deer herd's numbers are down. The LE units have about the right amount of tags it seems. As hard as it is to draw a tag already, what difference would it make it they cut the GS tags by a few thousand a unit for the rifle hunts? Would at least make drawing a rifle tag a little more respectable. Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.

Jered
 
some great ideas are coming out on this thread.and some not so good ones.this is exactly what we need to do brainstorm our ideas,improve on good ideas,throw out the bad ideas,get more perspectives.then take them to the division.
 
Utah will never see its deer herd restored.
The main reason is the type of people who have infected the DWR. I know of no avid hunter who is a DWR bioligist. They really dont care about the deer herd as long as they can sell their general season tags.
Second is people like PRO who cry about tag numbers.
Third reason is the units are not of a managable size.

Utahs deer herd will continue to suck azz and will always suck azz.

Don Peay is the only person who could save our deer. Unfortunatley we have people like PRO who will fight him and cry if their snot nose kids can't kill a 2 point out of the truck.



---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
LAST EDITED ON May-10-08 AT 08:40PM (MST)[p]in reference to the wasatch front comments-the deer on the WF really have been at a good balance.true statement.the winter range is in decent shape some of the feed plants are getting into the older stages of their life,but overall the WF has decent winter range.i was talking with a division officer that was also a bowhunterand he said the ratio was 40/100.i do not agree with having areas that are weapon specific,but the 2 areas in our state that are seem to sit ok with me.the WF because most of the access is so close to homes,and the crawfords because its such a late hunt.the officer told me some other interesting things like most of the employees are degree holding treehuggers.he also said the best way we could a get a suggestion to the board was through bigger organizations like SFW,MDF,RMEF.it was almost funny that this guy acted like we needed to tiptoe around with our agenda. another thing i would like to add about the WF could the quality also be linked to the limited amounts of roads?this has been a great thread its nice when people bring opinions and no one gets pissed off (yet)
 
Pro/Prism Here is solution #3


If we want more bucks and bigger bucks I believe Colorado is correct in how they manage their deer.

Colorado manages their deer for quality and we manage our deer for opportunity. It is totally the opposite in how we manage are elk herds!

The only way we can have quality and quantity is primitive weapons meaning archery tackle!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rifles and muzzle loaders are to successful!!!!!!!!

The only way we can have quality with deer or elk is limited entry ie more units and less hunters!!!!!!

The only way we can have quantity is with our spike elk hunts and leave it the way it is for deer. Except I would add a few more units for deer to correct the problems prism already addressed with how hunters go where there are more deer every year and kill everything.

I personally would like Utah to opt for QUALITY AND QUANTITY with archery equipment only for the whole state and Le draw for the whole state for rifle hunters. This would allow any rifle hunter that didn't draw his tag to still purchase An archery deer or elk tag and go hunt.

I would also give the kids a better chance at the LE rifle tags so they get hooked.

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
whatis colorado's archery opprotunity like compared to ours?do they have opprotunity/segregation like our WF and uinta basin?
 
Let's look at what has worked in the past in utah.
What did the division do to make the henries the best quality hunt in the west right now?
What did they do to make the Paunsaugunt the awesome quality it was back in the early 90's
What did they do to make the book cliffs a quality hunt back in the late 80's early ninties?
You can't argue with success. Follow the model of the above and you will have bigger bucks.
does this all cycle? Will the Henries be like the pauns in about 5 years?
I've always thought the Beaver unit could be an awesome trophy unit if they managed it right.
Smaller units are the answer in my opinion. You can't say that
you can manage all of the southern unit the same. Is Pine Valley the Same as Beaver? NO!
 
NV-

all those units had antler point restrictions on them, of which i am all for again.









Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
I don't remember antler restrictions. There might have been, I just don't remember.
There was closure of the area's as I recall for a couple years
and then reopening with limited tags.
 
Hell i remember point restrictions clear back when i was a kid, clear up till the shut the Henry's and books down in the late 80's, and it was AWESOME hunting there as a general units!

Hell i even remember provo canyon being a 4 point or better, then it went too 3 then open to kill anything....now look at it.









Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
The following is my personal bias as to how I would like to see deer managed in Utah.

Break the state in 25-30 deer units (plus CWMU), these would include the current LE units. Set buck to doe ratio objectives for 15-25 for most of the units, 25-35 for some of the others, and 35+ with an age objective for units like the Pauns, and the Henry Mts.

Each unit has a tag quota. After the season, if a unit is below the buck to doe ratio objective the DWR cuts tags, if it is over, the DWR raises tags. If the unit stays within the range, tag numbers stay the same. This gives the DWR a financial incentive to increase deer numbers and buck to doe ratios.

You have to put in for a draw to get any deer tag, if you draw any of the units you loose your points. If there are leftovers after the draw you can buy them otc without loosing your points. This helps with point creep, gives youth a better chance, and makes guys choose between trophy hunting and opportunity. Guys that really want opportunity will be able to draw every year, and guys that really want to hunt trophy bucks will only hunt deer in Utah every 5-15 years.

I would also switch dates with the General Elk rifle opener and General Deer Rifle opener to avoid the possiblity of rut hunting.


Dax
 
LAST EDITED ON May-10-08 AT 10:12PM (MST)[p]Nunya wrote: "Utah will never see its deer herd restored.
The main reason is the type of people who have infected the DWR. I know of no avid hunter who is a DWR bioligist. They really dont care about the deer herd as long as they can sell their general season tags.
Second is people like PRO who cry about tag numbers.
Third reason is the units are not of a managable size.
Utahs deer herd will continue to suck azz and will always suck azz.

Don Peay is the only person who could save our deer. Unfortunatley we have people like PRO who will fight him and cry if their snot nose kids can't kill a 2 point out of the truck."

I have tried to be 'nice' but when YOU call me out it's on little man! The higher ups in the DWR are ALL hunters, most of them archers. Spouting off claims about people you have likey never met in person is inane.
Second, I am NOT 'crying' about tag numbers, but if you think reducing tag numbers is the answer for the future of hunting you are ignorant to the social and biological aspects of hunting.

As much as I respect Don Peay, I disagree STRONGLY that he is the "only person who could save our deer", and I seriously doubt he feels that way himself. And your childish comments about "my" snot nosed kids needing to kill a 2 point makes no sense. You have NEVER, nor will you EVER hear me say I want my kids to kill a 2 point, but I damn well DO want them to be able to hunt when they are of age. What parent doesn't? Oh wait, you have no kids and YOU don't care about other hunters, great sportsman right there. NOT! I talk w/Don fairly regularly, and we agree on most issues, but go ahead and spin it however you want.

I have said it MANY times, but since NUNYA has trouble comprehending things the first 10 times I'll say it again; the DWR is intending to go to micro-managed SMALLER units in 2009. However, as long as buck:doe ratio objectives stay at 15:100 it will do little to 'help' increase the number of 'big' bucks.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Slcmuley,

Great point about the limited access/roads on the WF. I meant to bring that up and got rambling and left it out! Access and limited harvest is really what is building that herd! All the while anyone can hunt up there!

Pro,

You do not need to defend yourself. Anyone that knows you knows what you are really about. Keep up the great work and hopefully we will see an increase in our deer herds!
 
dax- wow what a great post!althogh i dont agree with switching the the general seasons,everything else is right on.now your 2nd and 3rd choices can come into play.but what should be the rule on bonus points if you dont draw your first pick do you get a point? also throw in a twist for certain areas where youth and seniors get a certain percentage of tags and we are heading in the right direction
 
okay, pro, i'll bite. i would like to see the math.
also, tell me more about this deer committee. who is on it? who decided who was on it? when do they meet? how can we get our comments or opinions to them?
 
LAST EDITED ON May-10-08 AT 11:19PM (MST)[p]Lovely discussion. Keep it up boys.

When are the mule deer working groups gonna start working?

I think we all know that until SFW and the MDF say "jump" the DWR isn't gonna get much done, and all indicators point to changes soon.....

I vote Dax for president of the deer club, and Pro for the elk club (after I kill my big stinky though). :)
 
The deer committee will be getting started in June. I met with Anis Aoude and Craig McLaughlin this last week. They have been crunching numbers and discussing with the regional biologists several ideas/possibilities. There will be several groups included on the committee, SFW, MDF, UBA, are among the 'special interest' groups that will be directly involved, along with the DWR. I have faith this group of sportsmen will be able to come up with a good management plan.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
some statistics to think about.

In 1998, Colorado had approximately 475,000 deer, buck/doe ratios below 20/100, and a decreasing deer population, like every other state in the west.

In 1999, Colorado went to complete limited entry for all weapons and all deer hunts, and reduced buck tags by 50%, and reduced some seasons.

In 2007, Colorado had approximately 600,000 deer, buck ratios state wide above 35/100 does, and issued a total of 95,000 deer permits, with 40% being antlerless.

In 2007, Utah had approximately 305,000 deer, buck ratios below 20/100, and issued 93,000 tags, with 90%+ being buck tags.

In 2006 (2007 not posted yet), Oregon had around 200,000 mule deer, buck ratio below 20/100, and had 75,000 mule deer hunters, 90% + buck tags.

The winter of 2007-2008 resulted in serious winter loss to mule deer in Utah and Colorado. Oregon sufferred extremely low fawn survival, from what I am hearing, although virtually zero winter loss due to starvation. The numbers aren't out yet, but info from several sources is that the mule deer population and fawn recruitment numbers are terrible.

Here is how the three states responded to this winter's losses.

Oregon, with 200,000 deer, and a population that is at 60% of Management objective statewide, will decrease buck tags by 3,000 if the commission goes along with staff recommendations. (Note, I know of at least two cases where the local biologist recommended larger cuts in tag numbers than the staff went along with).

Utah, with 305,000 deer, and a population that is at 70% of management objective statewide, cut buck tags by 1,000.

In Colorado, the Wildlife department, with 600,000 deer and a population that is approaching management objective, recommended cutting approximately 20,000+ buck tags and 15,000+ doe tags. When the recommendation went to the Commission in late April, they decided to cut all antlerless tags, except for a token number in each unit (7 is what I heard). They approved the token number since antlerless hunts were offerred on these units and the deadline for entering the draw had passed.

There are certainly a lot of factors that impact big game populations and hunting opportunity, and conditions are different from state to state, but it seems pretty obvious that the starting point has to be protecting the population base, and being willing to substantially reduce tags, and revenue, when conditions warrant that action. In my view, Colorado and Nevada are the only two states that have a track record of doing that when things are tough.

It will be interesting to see what happens to deer populations, fawn/doe and buck/doe ratios in these three states over the next few years, given the drastically different approach to dealing with serious losses to mule deer populations in all three states.

Scoutdog
 
While you guys constantly tout colorado, it wasnt the controlled buck harvest that brought the over all deer numbers up it took favorable weather conditions, nevada was the first state to manage in such a way, and this year deer numbers are down again, I dont hear anyone go on and on about nevada, Colorado has lots of high quality habitat a lot of it is roadless, Nevada has deteriorating habitat and lots of roads It took a lot of work to get colorado to change their management and I think utah will change, but dont expect a miracle when it happens, pro has some good points, it takes more
 
LAST EDITED ON May-11-08 AT 08:49AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-11-08 AT 08:43 AM (MST)

PRO I said DWR biologists are not avid hunters! They beleive a trophy class deer is a 24" 4 point. They have no comprehension of what a gaint deer is and should be. Nor do they care! We have a freakin gopher biologist running our big game now in a southern region. Between that and people like yourself PRO you can now see what those of us who want to hunt giant deer are up against.
As I said before Utahs deer herd will continue to suck with the exception of one or maybe two units that tags are cut in! We do not have the habitat Colorado has because our annual precip will not allow it. The only way we can see bigger bucks are micro manage units and cut tags! We do not have the vast inacesabile places Colorado has. Utah has a freakin road or quad trail up every ridge and down every canyon. And heaven forbid we close some of them. I hate to think what would happen if PRO and his kids had to walk to their hunting area. How could they get all the pop and sandwichs on their backs and still get their 2-points out. The 2-points have no where to hide from people like PRO and his kids. The only way to save a few bucks is to cut tags.
But also like I said the only person who can get this done is Don Peay. However it would cause such an uproar with guys like PRO who feel like the deserve a tag every year because thats how it used to be.
Funny how we go through this cycle in our deer units Close them for 5 or so years such as Vernon, Bookcliffs, Henrys, Yada yada then open them up give out large numbers of permits and cream the hell out of them till they are chit again.
One question PRO.... How did the elk herd get to be what it is today? Answer.. CUTTING PERMITS IN SMALLER UNITS.
Its ok PRO, I will suffer through Utahs ever goin deer crisis for your little PRO's who deserve to shoot two points every year so they can be like dad.



P.S. PRO I have 4 girls. I take them hunting when they want to go. We keep our noses clean and don't shoot 2-points. :) So saying I have no kids and don't care isn't true.
If I was to ask some PRO such as your self why they hunt they would spew some generic babble about how they hunt to be outdoors with their kids yada yada. Well how about giving up the tag for a couple years and just being outdoors with your kids. Why do you have to kill some sub par buck to have a great experience.
One thing is right though I really don't care if your kids kill a 2-point or not.


---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
>>What did they do to make the Paunsaugunt the awesome quality it was back in the early 90's
What did they do to make the book cliffs a quality hunt back in the late 80's early ninties?<<


Maybe a rain dance?? ;-) -TONY
 
Plenty of youth oppurtuntiy for Cow elk tags,mule deer doe and antelope doe,there is Cow moose,Turkey hunting,waterfowl hunting,rabbit hunting plus tons of good fishing. If thats not enough oppurtunity I dont know what is.
If everyone could agree on only hunting general deer on smaller units every third year to start off with and see what happens that would be a good start on trying to get some larger bucks back. If it does not work try somthing else.I am at the point I dont even want to hunt general Utah deer anymore the way it is now.
I cant wait to take my son out hunting in the very near future.Until he can draw his bucks,bulls or once in a lifetime tags the answer will be applying him for out of State hunts and the many limited antlerless tags that Utah offers.
Plenty of Oppurtunity for everyone to hunt every year if you just want to take youth hunting.Pro sorry on this one you can take your youth out and have some great first time hunting trips with good odds of drawing some of these antlerless permits. Maybe it wont be 380 plus bulls and 200 inch bucks but by hell you can get your kids out every year and thats a fact.What part of limited tags and smaller units dont you understand when trying to build bigger and better future hunting for mule deer?It worked on elk like Nunya said why not give it a try on deer now?
 
Lot's of great ideas coming through, that's what we need.
What we DON'T need is personal bashing about people and their kids for crying out loud, that aint fixing #####!!

Sounds like one thing most of us agree on and as pro pointed out is the state DOES and IS going to bust down the big five units and try a little micro managing....YEAH!!!

Now i still stand behind my idea of trying something like the proposed I-400 for elk.
Break those deer units down, keep some for quailty, some for quantity, that way everyone is happy.

Now making something like that actually work is over my head. Deer are a different beast to manage than elk are....a WHOLE different beast!








Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
The original question "How to Get More Big Bucks in Utah" is very simple: Cut buck tags to 0. Many have said they want it like the Book Cliffs or the Henry Mtns. So cut tags in Utah to 0 for 3 years, then open it up on the same ratio as the example units were opened. That would mean there would be no tags for 3 years and about 20,000 deer tags statewide after, hunters would have 94% success rates. Those 20,000 permits would be broken down as 4,000 for archers, 4,000 for muzzleloaders and 12,000 for rifle hunters. You can draw maybe every 10+ years. Then the whole state could be just like the Books and the Henrys. Who wants to sign-up?

The real question is what is best for the deer herd? Not the buck segment, not the trophy hunter and not the meat hunter. Simply what is best for the herd PRODUCTIVITY? Fawning rates are comparable between the Books and the Nebo and the Cache. If the doe population is getting bred then shouldn't that mean there are enough bucks? The doe population is bred, why aren't herds growing? It isn't because of buck numbers.

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
-------------------------
 
>>Lot's of great ideas coming through, that's what we need.
What we DON'T need is personal bashing about people and their kids for crying out loud, that aint fixing #####!!<<


Unfortunately, it seems to be the nature of the beast here. An adage a college professor once told me....

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.

-TONY
 
Good post slammy! As my signature line states, we need BOTH opportunity and trophy type hunting here in Utah, but it needs to be BOTH not one or the other. I don't oppose looking at adding a couple more LE units, but NOT the whole dang state. Just because people like NUNYA feel entitled to killing big bucks while being unwilling to work for them doesn't mean that is how the whole state and ALL hunters should hunt. Some of us aren't afraid to work to get that trophy class buck on PUBLIC land. Go figure, I am an "old fat guy", and NUNYA is a young in shape guy, yet it is him that wants the hunts to be easier. Ironic isn't it?

For the record, I haven't killed a 2 point since I was 17 years old, which was 24 years ago. This isn't about 'my' kids being able to hunt from the road and kill 2 points. It IS however about kids being able to hunt. Warbird, you mentioned the antlerless tags, which I agree are great for youth, but your missing the point. If the deer herd is turned into LE like the elk there will NOT be enough opportunity for the youth and the rest of us as well. We can NOT have LE everything and expect to keep hunter numbers where we need them. FYI, I do NOT believe Don Peay has any desire to even try and do such a STUPID thing.

I myself haven't killed a deer since 2001, but I have had plenty of chances to kill young bucks during that span. I'll bet I have personally killed MORE 170+ bucks than you NUNYA, so to assert I am out mowing down 2 points is silly. I choose to be selective, but that is MY choice, not a mandated choice by someone else. You want a happy little hunting ground like Deseret, go buy some PRIVATE land and manage it how you want, but the PUBLIC land MUST managed for the masses, not a select FEW.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
> Great minds discuss ideas. Average
>minds discuss events. Small minds
>discuss people.
>
>-TONY

This thread started out as a discussion of ideas, but some seem intent on making it about me and my kids, which aren't even of hunting age yet.

PRO


Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro,

I know; I read the whole thread and pretty much agree with most -- NOT all -- of your suggestions.

Another adage for you...

Never argue with a fool. They will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience.

-TONY
 
Heck, I don't always agree with myself, I sure don't expect anyone else to. :eek:

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>I am an "old fat
>guy", and NUNYA is a
>young in shape guy, yet
>it is him that wants
>the hunts to be easier.
>Ironic isn't it?

Well Pro, you said it. Unfortunatley you and I are pretty much the same age. The rest of the the statement is right on and we can agree on that.
I never said easier. If I had my way 70% of the roads and quad trails would be closed! Sorry bud I hunt out of my back pack.
As for you 170 bucks. Well we pass on them where I come from.

What ever they do is fine PRO. I will spend some time every year walking around in the red sand of So.Utah where there are few deer and no people, livin out of my pack and lookin for a giant buck track to hunt. If I find one great if not I will buy a tag in some other state and spend Utahs deer hunt in my Bass boat.













---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
If they do go to smaller units in 2009 why not decide which units have the best genetics for trophy quality, close them one at a time for 2 or 3 years and then reopen with a 30/100 buck to doe ratio.
You wouldn't do this with the whole state, but maybe 3 or 4 units.
Add them to the Henries, Pauns, and book cliffs.
And then you'd have several trophy areas and several general type areas.
everyone can hunt what they want.
 
NV-
I like PART of your idea, but we need to leave our "big two" as they are...LE units managed for throphy bucks.

I CLEARLY remember like it was last year, how the Books used to be, i hunted them a lot.

It had a 3 point or better restriction, yet it was still an "open area" where anyone at any age could hunt for the "opportunity" of a better age class buck.
The bucks were everywehere and it wasn't that tough to kill a descent deer, hell we even held back on shooting the 3 points because there were so many!

It was a place that even a young hunter could go if he wanted to limit himself, and it also taught discipline and good management tactics to us younger hunters (young at the time).

But if a family wanted to just shoot bucks of any size, there were still plenty of other units with NO restrictions whatsoever where that could take place.

I really think this needs to happen again, but too many people totally oppose the antler point restriction saying it didn't work.........i still don't understand THAT one!!

Funny how other states still use it with great sucess!!







Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
those are kind of ideas everyone should toss around, but the devil is in the details, I know that in colorado every time they nominate a new area to be managed for a quality elk unit the locals get up in arms and stop the proposal. Politics is the game you have to play to get anything done, and that means nobody is going to be totally happy. but that also means like minded people have to work together
 
I commented on nv post and slam dunk refresh us because I have never heard of anywhere 3or4 point or better restrictions have ever achieved their objective
 
I am a non resident so I have no say in this battle but I do hunt around. I think almost everyone agrees micro units is the way to go. But as Pro stated the ratio is set at 15/100. In my opinion the first thing you should do is make 25/100 the min. Then actually manage the micro units from there.
 
Slamdunk says
?I really think this needs to happen again, but too many people totally oppose the antler point restriction saying it didn't work.........I still don't understand THAT one!!
Funny how other states still use it with great success!!?

They haven't worked here are two reason they don't work here on mule deer and we are only talking about mule deer and not whitetails back east.
When you kill off the older bucks the does get bred later in the first rut and possible later into December on the second rut. This causes two problems. The first problem is the fawns are born later in the year when the predator?s babies are a month older and are way more effective at taking the fawns. The second problem is the fawn are younger and under weight going into the winters, this leads to a higher mortality rate and a poor fawn recruitment for the next year.




Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
Alright i might get hit hard on this one but i think that it will help a ton in utah. Utah has more hunters than our near by states but i think that the new law the 12 year old can hunt is CRAZY! I cant stand that. you all know that when you are hunting your first couple of years you will almost shoot anything you see. thats were most the small deer get killed by. i think that we should have kept the law at 14 and made some areas 3-4 point or better only. Its a joke that might not even get a general tag if you draw and i have freinds thats missed out on hunting general season rifle central two years know.
 
One problem I have. All these need a tag every year guys want their 2 point tag, BUT THEY APPLY FOR A HENRY TAG FIRST! The Henry odds may not be so bad if all these every year guys did not have their cake and eat it too.

NUNYA and pro, you two crack me up. Keep after it. Nothing better than a good e-fight between you guys!}>
 
Micro management areas are coming in 2009 one problem is being fixed.
How will the DWR manage these units?

If Utah still wants to allow thousands of 4-wheelers tear up every ridge and ravine and allow 100,000 rifle hunters loose on the same day how the heck can the deer even have a chance.

Make the 4-wheelers illegal and restrict the rifle hunters and see what happens. I guarantee you the herds will recover.

What can be done about opportunity give out unlimited archery tags.

Both problems fixed for quality and quantity.


Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
High_Country101 ?
Alright i might get hit hard on this one but i think that it will help a ton in utah. Utah has more hunters than our near by states but i think that the new law the 12 year old can hunt is CRAZY! I cant stand that. you all know that when you are hunting your first couple of years you will almost shoot anything you see. thats were most the small deer get killed by.

How effective do you really think these 12 year old kids are? They don't even make a dent in the population!




?i think that we should have kept the law at 14 and made some areas 3-4 point or better only. Its a joke that might not even get a general tag if you draw and i have freinds thats missed out on hunting general season rifle central two years know.?


Point restrictions haven't worked here are two reason they don't work here on mule deer and we are only talking about mule deer and not whitetails back east.
When you kill off the older bucks the does get bred later in the first rut and possible later into December on the second rut. This causes two problems. The first problem is the fawns are born later in the year when the predator?s babies are a month older and are way more effective at taking the fawns. The second problem is the fawn are younger and under weight going into the winters, this leads to a higher mortality rate and a poor fawn recruitment for the next year.



Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
I agree with the age limit. I do believe 12 is too young to be out packing a rifle. Birds yes, big-game no.

Why not have more LE areas like the Henry's? The state has proven they can develop some awesome areas, why not do more of them?????? Maybe have 12 or more LE's for people to choose from, thus giving more people the chance to hunt a really good area.

Decrease the overall number of rifle tags statewide, increase the primitive weapons.

Have more general units in the state. (otherwise know as micro-manage) I have a buddy not draw the central deer tag 2 years in a row now.

Follow the examples of some surrounding states that have great deer hunting, Wyoming, Colorado, etc....

Manage the deer and elk for herd health rather than revenue.

Increase the quality of the winter range. Plant sage and bitter-brush and other nutrient rich forage. I don't think we can save all of it but the areas we do have left should be taken care of so the critters have something to eat.

Implement permanent feeding stations on the winter grounds. Keep the critters off the roads and away from the general public.

Utah has some of the best genetics in the world, we just need to give the deer the chance to rebound and re-produce.
 
WOW!!!

THE SHORT TOUGH GUY (NUNYA!!!) IS GONNA WHOOP THE 6' 13" KNOW EVERYTHINGS (Pro!!!) ASS!!!

Pro YOU HAVEN'T EVEN FIXED THE LE ELK UNITS YET???

WTF ARE YOU DOING CLAIMING YOU'RE GONNA FIX EVERYTHING???

LETS TAKE THIS ONE STEP AT A TIME!!!

YOU CAN'T FIX IT ALL Pro!!!

WE WISHED YOU COULD!!!

CUZZ IF YOU COULD WE'D LET YOU!!!

I'M GONNA "SPLAIN" IT TO YOU ONE MORE FRICKEN TIME Pro!!!

PLEASE INSERT HEARING AID Pro!!!

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE NEXT PARAGRAPH Pro!!!

""" NOT EVERY TARD IN TARDVILLE CAN HUNT DEER EVERY YEAR IN TARDVILLE & CONTINUE TO KILL PISSCUTTERS EVERY YEAR IN TARDVILLE AND THEN EXPECT TROPHY MULE DEER TO JUST APPEAR OUT OF NOWHERE IN TARDVILLE BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY ARE OWED UNLIMITED OPPORTUNITY"""!!!

WILL YOU EVER UNDERSTAND IT Pro???





THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

DON'T EVER TELL ME MY SON WASN'T OLD ENOUGH TO TAKE HIS FIRST 6 POINT BULL AT AGE 14 WITH HIS 300 WSM AT A WHOPPIN 85 LBS!!!





THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

NUNYA is all yip and no bite, of couorse I'm not too worried is he does bite, my boots protect my ankles just fine. :p

As for the comments about everybody needing to kill a two-point while complaining about the lack of quality, I AGREE 100%. If you shot the small ones you shouldn't be surprised there are fewer big ones. But, I do NOT think that should be 'forced' on folks through antler restrictins (which have failed EVERY time implemented) nor through severely limited tags. I also believe for deer AND elk that if you apply and acquire a 'bonus' point you should NOT be allowed to acquire a general season tag. That way those who are 'committed' trophy hunters have 'their' hunts, and the 'opportunists' have theirs. This would also open up the possiblity, based on demand/applicants for LE tags, to INCREASE the number of LE units without taking opportunity away from the 'average joe' hunters.

I still stand by the comments I made in the first post of this thread, there are only two ways to increase the number of big bucks in Utah; 1)Kill fewer bucks and/or 2)Increase the number of deer. Option one is short-sighted and takes opportunity NEEDLESSLY away from the general public, which lowers hunter recruitment and hunter retention. Option two may take longer to see the fruits of the labor, but it keeps the opportunity there and accomplishes the same end goal and MAINTAINS it down the road. Option one lasts only as long as tags are restricted, option two lasts as long as habitat remains that can sustain deer/elk. Giving a higher percentage of tags to primitive weapons would help lower the number of bucks killed while increasing the overall herd numbers, but good luck getting the rifle crowd to go along with that.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

HEY Pro!!!

HOW BOUT CHOPPING THE STICK FLIPPERS DOWN TO A 9 DAY HUNT!!!

ABSOLUTELY NO DOE SHOOTERS!!!

4 POINT OR BETTER OF COURSE!!!

THAT WAY ONLY THE TRUE FEATHER FLIPPERS STAY IN THE ARCHERY HUNT!!!

GO AHEAD!!!

TELL ME HOW IT'S YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO FEATHER FLIP FOR MORE THAN 30 DAYS!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

1+ for pro.

Prisms comments regarding going more primitive is misguided. Archers have a 75% wound rate. If you included those in the bag, archery kill rate is up there with the rifle. Just because a tag wasn't placed, doesn't mean the herd wasn't reduced. Lower success and more opportunity is a lousy way to manage a herd for the public. Futhermore, where does Prism get off knowing so much about hunting Utah? He said on another post that he hunts private land. What does he know about hunting public land?

Bobcatbess's posts give me a headache, I usually skip them, but I just read one. I'm reminded why I avoid them. I'm amazed he has a kid with as much time as he spends on the web.

Utah's DWR is managed for money!!! No duh!!! Get over it people. Money makes the world go around. They have budget constraints just like everyone else. No money, no progress. Find some ways for them to fairly make a pot load of money, and they will do a better job of managing. It kills me how many times people say - "they just work for money." Like all the sudden they've realized what makes the DWR tick. We all show up to work to make a dollar, or there is no job. Nobody's getting rich off of the DWR (except Don Peay.)
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

SMELLYBUCK!!!

YOU'RE A REAL WORK OF ART!!!

I'LL BET I SEEN MORE WITH MY KID TODAY THAN YOU'LL SEE WITH YOURS IN THE NEXT 6 MONTHS!!!

YOU'RE BARKIN UP THE WRONG FRICKEN TREE!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

SMELLY-

The wounding argument is gonna get Pro really in a fit...

Where do I get off. Is that a freaking JOKE!

I get off because I care about every Utah hunter having the opportunity to hunt mature deer out of a healty deer herd.

INCLUDING YOU...

NOT JUST MYSELF!!!

I'm lucky to be able to hunt private ground in Utah. Does that mean I shouldn't give a rats ass about everyone else?

NO!

Sorry for being so FREAKING SELFISH!!!
 
RE: UT Deer Managment

25-30 LE Units that all use the same points. You burn your points if you draw any unit. The only way to not burn your points is to buy a leftover permit OTC. You can't have your cake and eat it too, you have to choose, do you want opportunity or trophy? Should help draw odds for both ends of the spectrum.

Manage most of the units for 15-25 bucks / 100 does. Some for 25-35, and a couple for 35+ with an age objective like we have for elk. Tags have to be cut if numbers fall below the range, tags are added if numbers exceed objective.

Mandatory reporting for everyone, with a 1-2 year waiting period on getting another tag for successful hunters. You can hunt every year, but have to think hard about pulling the trigger on the 2-point the last day because it means sitting out a year or two. Should lower success rates in a way that is more simple that point restrictions or making everyone hunt archery.

As much as I like how CO manages their deer, NV is proof that just cutting buck tags doesn't grow the population. It sure as heck makes buck hunting better, but it just doesn't grow deer. In UT our fawn to doe ratios are not related to buck to doe ratios. If buck/doe ratios fell to low single digits it might, but hovering around 15/100 it doesn't appear to have an effect. I have seen fawn/doe ratios on the Cache higher than the Book Cliffs that has a buck/doe ratio 3 times that of the Cache. Everyone cites the Henries and Book Cliffs as examples of how closing a unit recovered the deer herd, but is just isn't true. It definitely made buck hunting way better, but those deer populations didn't grow any faster than other units with general hunting strategies and favorable weather and habitat conditions.

Hunt structure only affects population growth if you harvest does, or harvest so many bucks that there aren't enough left to do the breeding. In Utah today, hunt structure is mostly a tool for controlling hunt quality. It is a social issue, not biological.

Growing deer populations is a function of habitat, predators, road kill, and especially weather. I wish it was a simple as cutting buck tags to grow a deer population. If that was the case I would be the first in line to say let's close UT to deer hunting for 3-5 years and get our population up a couple hundred thou.

We can fight endlessly over how to divide an increasing smaller and smaller pie, or we can focus on how to make the pie bigger.

We have to do both.


Dax
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

SMELLYBUCK!!!

DO YOU WORK FOR THE DWR???



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

I respect the heck out of a guy like Prism that cares about the health of the herd and opportunity for the average guy even though he can afford to hunt private land. He could just forget the public land guys and do his own thing, but instead he is involved, and this winter made a huge effort to help with feeding in CO. Thanks Prism.

Also, it is true that there are getting to be more and more non-hunters in the DWR (I wouldn't go so far as to say there are't any avid hunters there though). The same thing is happening in lots of other states too. Just look at the CA fish and game, wow! Wildlife managment is changing, and even though hunters and anglers are the ones that pay the bills, their influence is shrinking.

Dax
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

swbuckmaster-

Thanks for posting those statistics on how shooting bigger bucks affect the fawn crop, it makes good sense for the most part too me.

But something i don't understand is this-
If the antler point restrictions didn't work, why was the hunting so good back then?
Any one of us would be delighted to have the success on mule deer bucks like we had back in the 80's compared to today, right? I sure wish i could step back in time!!
There was even more hunters back then!

I hunted the Books the second to last year they lifted the restriction, we all killed "descent bucks".
The next year we decided to hunt the Henry's because it was the last year the restriction was going to be in place.
Again, we all took nice deer and saw some real giants.
The next year we went down again knowing that the point restriction would be gone and guess what.....we couldn't hardly find a place to camp because it was so crowded, way more than ever before!

The result????
It was an absolute blood bath on everything that even had nubbins!
That trend continued for two more years until guess what....they closed the SOB and the Books too.

You will NEVER convince me those antler point restrictions didn't work, EVER!!!










Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

Everyone keeps touting Colorado's management plan and giving the DOW all the props on the great deer hunting of this millenium. What most don't know is that is because of the clamoring of sportsmen in this state at endless commision and stakeholders meetings that the pressure was put on and finally the DOW responded. I've got a file of old newspaper clippings concerning all these meetings and such that is a good way of refreshing peoples memories when the warm fuzzies creep in like it was a altruistic attempt by the DOW to improve deer herds. It was public pressure and lots of it that finally got them to give up those ridiculously low buck to doe ratios they found "acceptable." They quite simply did not want to get rid of the revenue that the buck tags provided.

Tags were cut WAAAAYYY back(I don't have the number handy but I think its in the 40,000 range and the impact was fabulous.We have had some mild winters to be sure but there have been plenty of cold as hell, average ones also. Its freakin' Colorado and it snows alot and gets cold. Bottom line is a hell of alot of bucks were making it through every year with reduced hunter pressure. They got old and big.

Piper stated that the locals get up in arms every time a limited entry elk area is talked about. From my recollection, that is the complete opposite of what really happened. If my memory serves me right the last units to become quality managed were 66 and 67 and it was strictly because of heavy pressure from locals that it was put into place, I was at those commision meetings stacked with residents of the Gunnison Basin crying out for more than a bunch of raghorns running the elk herds and it worked. Those same residents were behind the heavy public pressure to drastically reduce buck licenses in the Gunnision Basin, resulting in one of the greatest success in modern mule deer management. All those big racks crossing the state line to taxidermists in Utah were a result of some folks unwilling to keep the status quo of dink bucks running the deer herds. Thank these locals not the biologists that are using the winterkill as ammo against future "stockpiling" of bucks because they will eventually winterkill mentality.

Its been shown in elk and sheep studies that immature males are inefficient breeders and one could reasonably expect the same in deer. Immature buck have a tougher time managing small doe groups and harems and spend more time scrapping with each other than getting the job done. Second estrous fawns born a month later might be expected to have a little tougher time making it through the following winter. Its common sense.

I think chaining is sloppy and antiquated in relation to range improvement. Sage is too fragile to take that heavy of an impact. The PJ encroachment is a really serious problem and is eating way more winter range than is given credit for. An army of deer hunters with small Stihls could have a impact that will last for generations. Fire in sagebrush country is nothing but a green light for cheatgrass and IMO there is no such thing as "old decadent sagebrush" . Mowing it in hopes of regrowing verdant stands of lush sagebrush has been proven to be in-effective in much of the drought-striken west. I could show examples of sage that was mowed in strips in the late 70's and early 80's and it still hasn't regrown to a point where it would be above average snow depth in mid-winter. Sage is the lifeblood of mule deer in much of the west and when the going gets tough, it keeps mule deer alive. Sure there is thousands of square miles of it in the great basin of Nevada Idaho and western Utah but tell that to the deer in Gunnison that starved to death this winter. There are places that are critical winter range and every PJ christmas tree that grows up kills off every other piece of vegetation under its canopy eventually.

Lastly, here on planet earth where a few of us with common sense still live, there is no easy fix to improving buck numbers and overall deer numbers. You must cut buck tag numbers and reduce hunter pressure. If you want to have more primitive weapons hunts. Make them PRIMITIVE and get rid of the scoped, sabot shooting 200 yard muzz gun.

Utah will NEVER have any trouble recruiting hunters. Deer hunting is and will always be a part of Utahs heritage and very few places in this country has the the degree of love and passion for deer hunting that Utahns have. Its admirable. But its also time to lose the denial and get serious about deer management.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

SMELLYBUCK said
Prisms comments regarding going more primitive is misguided. Archers have a 75% wound rate.

Prism..
forget about Pro...I saw it first...


Smellybuck where do you get this outragious wound rate???

I am VERY interested in seeing these figures so post em up...

Got any info on the rifle wound rate? with there 4 rounds in the magazine and from what opening morning sounds like I bet it has to be 3 or 4 times the archery rate...

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

LAST EDITED ON May-11-08 AT 10:11PM (MST)[p]nochawk,

I got the numbers from a Utah legislator, who got them from the DWR. I don't know what the rifle wound rate is.

If I "put up" and go the distance to get the numbers from him will you shut up? Or is this a one way deal?
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

buckspy I know your right about the pressure hunters had to put on the dept. to get the deer managment in place and apparently for some elk areas also, but I believe that colorado doesn't have as many quality elk areas as the wildlife commission approved, its on the web site, the last unit was 60 that the locals put the kibash on. I think it would be hard to convince colorado folks to have a controlled hunt for all the elk areas in the state and thats almost what utah will be asked to do, only with deer, almost I said
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

sorry I think it was area 62 in colorado, I dont want to get chewed out about being wrong I remmember the commissioners said it was the testimony of a woman talking about their family hunts that convinced them to keep it a general area
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

NO Pro YET???

HE MUST BE TALKING WITH BIOLOGISTS AS WE SPEAK ON THE 75% WOUND & ROT RATE???

I AGREE WITH BUCKSPY!!!

TARDS MAY NOT REMEMBER THEIR ANNIVERSARY BUT THEY DAMN SURE DON'T FORGET ABOUT OPENING DAY OD DEER SEASON!!!

ALOT OF THEM ARE PROUD TO SAY:"LOOK AT ME BOYS I FILLED MY TAG WITH A PISSCUTTER"!!!

OR!!!

"I NEEDED THE MEAT"!!!

THAT ONE HAS AMAZED ME FOR YEARS!!!

I DON'T KNOW WHAT DEER MEAT COSTS ON AVERAGE BUT I SURE AS HELL AIN'T ADDING IT UP & TELLING THE OLE LADY!!!

I REMEMBER THE LAST OF THE "GOOD OLE DAYS"!!!

IT WAS 71-72!!!

OUR DEER MANAGEMENT HAS BEEN PISS POOR SINCE THEN!!!

GO AHEAD Pro,SEND THIS TO THE DWR,I DON'T CARE WHO READS THE TRUTH!!!

IT WILL NEVER COME BACK LIKE WHAT IT ONCE WAS!!!

BUT THESE MOTL (MILK ON THE LIP!!!) HUNTS DON'T IMPRESS ME MUCH!!!

I'LL BE HUNTING PISSCUTTERS AGAIN THIS YEAR,AM I EXCITED,OH YA!!!

TELL ME Pro???

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TARDS PUT IN FOR THE 97,000 TAGS???

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP THIS MANY IDIOTS/TARDS HAPPY WITH YOUR NEW PLAN???





THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

"Archers have a 75% wound rate. If you included those in the bag, archery kill rate is up there with the rifle. Just because a tag wasn't placed, doesn't mean the herd wasn't reduced."

I call BS on this. This is 100% a made up statistic that is unsupported with facts. I say prove it knowing you can NOT do so.

"Lower success and more opportunity is a lousy way to manage a herd for the public."

Help me out here, why is lower success and MORE opportunity a 'lousy' way to manage a herd for the public? It allows for more tags to be issued while mainatining/creating quality animals for the PUBLIC!

Tp be clear, I have NO issues with where/why/how Prism hunts. I consider him one of the good guys, and I have loads of respect for him.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

LAST EDITED ON May-12-08 AT 07:59AM (MST)[p]SMELLYBUCK
nochawk,

I got the numbers from a Utah legislator, who got them from the DWR. I don't know what the rifle wound rate is.

If I "put up" and go the distance to get the numbers from him will you shut up? Or is this a one way deal?



DONE DEAL, YOU POST THEN UP FROM A RESPECTABLE LINK AND i WILL SHUT UP AND OFFER A OPOLOGY TO THE WHOLE FORUM.

AND i EXPECT THE SAME FROM YOU!!!!

so lets see them, and I dont mean NEXT spring, I expect them by Friday May 23, 2008.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-12-08 AT 09:12AM (MST)[p]NVdrhntr your asking the same question as I am, the only real answser I can see as why they dont do what you suggested is it would cut down on the states tag revenue, more money or more bucks? We all know which one the dwr will pick.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

I admit bowhunters have less impact than a rifle hunter for many reasons. I disagree that bow hunters are they way to manage for quantity and quality, there is a wound rate (not sure what it is or how it compares to other weapons), and bow hunters do have an impact.

The statewide archery thing has to go. Units need to be smaller managed closely, and bow hunters need to be part of the solution. People always compare the Wasatch Font, which can be a good comparison of sorts, but realize that mountain is ROUGH and acess is very limited. Do you think this is partly to blame for the big deer? Big deer roamed the front even when rifle hunting was allowed.

I still say tags need to be cut a bunch. With habitat and predator work the combination should help? I read posts where Colorado, Wyoming, and Nevada have big changes year to year based on the winter and surveys. Utah has 97k tags, with a 2k adjustment down in 15 years! Nevada cut tags in half this year? Colorado had huge cuts in many areas this year? Not Utah 95k tags with a 1k adjustment this year. Our herds did not see a bad winter like the rest of you I am guessing? How can anyone expect things to get better with a lazy ass management policy like that?

NUNYA is right about the ATV thing. ATV's have all but ruined hunting in my opinion.
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

LAST EDITED ON May-12-08 AT 09:36AM (MST)[p]Three changes which would increase buck numbers without decreasing hunter opportunity:

-"Wound One Your Done!" This should be the new catch phrase for the DWR. It should played on every commercial, printed on every license, highlighted in every publication, written on all correspondence with hunters, and pushed in every way to educate the responsibility every hunter has. (No matter the weapon type. Of course this would be hard to enforce, but would save animals.)

-Increase habitat (as is currently being accomplished) Add $5 to every license for purchase or maintenance of winter ranges.

-Close all side roads to vehicles for 10 days during the hunt. Not the paved roads or the "Skyline Drives".
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

75% wound rate? Yeah right! Where did they pull that out of? Who did they contact to ask? I can guarantee you this, they did not contact very many hunters. That number is absurd. How many rifle hunters did they contact?

How many rifle hunters even know when they hit and wound? How many follow up their 500 yard shots with a real effort to check? VERY FEW. How many rifle hunters even bother hiking 250+ yards when the "obviously" missed because the animal didnot drop on the spot? I can tell you this, I have witnessed rifle hunters shoot and hit animals and then walk away without following up. I have also witnessed the carnage after the rifle elk hunt in the NE region. I have found numerous cows and mature bulls tipped over with a nice little hole through the ribs. How many of these show up in your little wound study? I am going to go way out on a limb and say none.

Bottom line to me is this. All weapon types wound animals. Bowhunters happen to be the closest to their animals and are much more capable of witnessing a hit and blood etc. Typically in my experience, not many lead throwers ever leave their ridge until something drops.

Managing a herd for lower success and more opportunity is absolutely the best way to manage a public resource. It maximizes every animal and maximizes revenue and hunters in the field. Just because it does not fit with "your" style of hunting does not make it wrong. Part of the equation is to keep the general public happy. Unfortunately that gets us where we are today. An unhealthy herd with 97000 buck tags with the most tags being the highest harvest rate. I wonder why we have no mature bucks?

As for the 3 point or better statements. I hunted several of those units prior to the blood bath that took place when they lifted the restriction. To say 3 point or better did not work, is simply not true in my oppinionated little world. It was routine and a daily occurance to hunt herds of bucks of all age classes during the bowhunt. On the Fish lake we would see groups of 10-15 bucks every time out. A lot of 2 points, 3 points and 4 points. Some real dandy's. Our camp killed 6-7 mature bucks each year out. The very next season after the carnage, that area was void of any age class of bucks and has NEVER been the same. The talk of it not working is absurd and you will never convince me other wise. There were plenty of mature bucks to breed the does. Heck, back then, the muzzy hunt was DURING the rut and they still got the does bred.

Anyways, I am on a pretty good soap box right now and I better just let it stay at that! Have a great day guy's.

Chad
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

Ktc,

Your right about the access and the ruggedness of the Mtn on the WF. And to be fair, that is a BIG part of the success of that unit.

I beleive that the whole ATV issue needs to be addressed. We need to close trails as Packout suggests but how do we do that? We have a world class ATV trails system that is utilized by far more than just hunters. Can we get away with closures from august till november? Unfortunately I do not think so. What can do is enforce the closures that already exist. For some unknown reason a large majority of ATV "hunters" feel it is their God given right to continue to use those closed trails. I think we need to levy fines that include loss of bonus points and much steeper fines. Maybe hunters can be rewarded somehow for turning in ATV abusers?? Just thinking out loud, but the Forest Service does not seem to be able to stop the abuse, can we as hunters?

I really like the wound one your done thing. Certainly not enforcible, but if we could instill that into the minds of hunters, especially new hunters, we could gradually see a change in behavior?? Great ideas!
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

Has anyone ever checked with state of idaho and see how the 2 point or less areas have worked out over time? they are like spike only for elk
 
RE: WHAT??? WTH??? WTF???

Me an my buddies (who spend a little more time in the hills than "PRO") have a minus -27 count for PRO and his lame ideas.
P.S. one of the buddies is a retired DWR biologist who cut tags on a unit years ago and helped in making it one of the better deer units in Ut today.



---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 

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