BIGGER BUCKS IN UTAH....4 YEAR PLAN

YukonDall

Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON May-12-08 AT 01:52PM (MST)[p] I WOULD LOOK INTO A 2 YEAR LICENSE PLAN, IN WHICH 1 BUCK COULD BE TAKEN IN A 2 YEAR LICENSE PERIOD. THIS WAY EVERY HUNTER HUNTS EVERY YEAR...COULD TROPHY HUNT IF HE WANTS TO, OR TAKE A LESSER BUCK FOR MEAT IF HE DESIRES. EVERYBODY STILL GETS OUT & ENJOYS THE GREAT OUTDOORS/CAMPFIRE....PULL THE TRIGGER THE FIRST SEASON & YOUR DONE.....TRY TWO/TWO YEAR PERIODS (or 3) OF THIS PRACTICE AND SEE IF YOU DONT HAVE MORE/ BIGGER BUCKS. THE FISH & GAME COPS CHARGE TWICE AS MUCH AS TO BE EXPECTED. YEA....SOME DETAILS ARE TO BE WORKED OUT....BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE THE DEER SITUATION IS GETTING PRETTY BAD .... MY 2 CENTS... (IF THIS IDEA HAS BEEN MENTIONED IN THE OTHER POSTS...SORRY, I DID NOT READ THEM ALL)......YD.
 
Does Utah have mandatory reporting? If not, some type of system would have to be implemented to ensure compliance.

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
They could require unused tags to be returned to DWR to be eligible for the next year. I would support it, maybe then people wouldn't fill their camps with forkhorns and complain about the lack of mature bucks. But like somebody said, you could still be out and enjoy the hunt most every year.
 
Not bad, the way I see it for most, taking one good deer every two years is doing exceptionally well. The choice is theirs.
 
That's kind of what we have in place already with the dedicated hunters program.....two bucks in 3 years.

But a good idea for ALL hunters none the less!







48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
I think something like that would be a great idea. Mandatory reporting for all deer hunters, and successfull hunters over the age of 18 have to sit out one year if they harvest. It could be as simple as making successful hunters inelibigle for a tag for one year after they harvest.

If other aspects of the system stayed the same, you would probably have to just make it for general season deer tags and exempt limited entry, CWMU, landowner, depredation, auction, and convention tags.

I like the idea, it allows the opportunity to hunt every year, and makes guys think harder about pulling the trigger on the two-point the last day.

Dax
 
Oh of course don't require the guys making and paying big money, keep those guys safe and let them harvest whatever the hell they want every year as long as they have the money.

T
 
i like this idea alot!dont know if it will work any better than size restrictions.so lets first break up the state into more managable sized units and try this in an area or two and see how it goes before we put this on the whole state. just my 2 cents. GREAT IDEA thanx for sharing your idea it can be hard around here sometimes
 
WE CALIFORNIA BOYS ARE ALWAYS GLAD TO HELP...JUST KIDDIN. HOWEVER MAYBE THIS IDEA COULD RUN BY DON PEAY OR YOUR LOCAL FISH & GAME OFFICE FOR GENERAL DISCUSSION....YOU NEVER KNOW...COULD HAPPEN WITH A FEW MODIFICATIONS......YD.
 
not exactly sure who don peay is, but everybody throws his name around like he's the DON KING of hunting in utah. how does a guy go about getting ahold of him?
 
YukonDall, brilliant idea, and Daxter I like your approach. I have been thinking about implementation. Would this work?

Exclude the LE hunts, they remain one year tags, with the draw held every year. I would also exclude the youth tags which have their own draw, keep them on an annual basis so new youth hunters have a chance.

For the rest:

Utah issues 2 year deer tags, Season dates August 01, 2009 through July 31, 2011, for example. Tag is valid during any legal season for the region, weapon, sex, applied for. Tag fee would be exactly double the current fee. Once the tag is filled, you are done for the remainder of the two year period. Logic would dictate that there would likely be a substantially lower harvest the first year, since many hunters would elect not to shoot small bucks, with one more year to hunt.

The second year, there will be a substantial increase in 2.5 year old bucks. I would guess you would still see a pretty big harvest of young bucks, but older bucks are always more difficult to harvest, and you now have fewer hunters after them the second year. The quality of the hunt would be substantially better, with less hunters, but even so, I think the total number of bucks killed the first two years would be substantially lower under this system than the current system.

Now you get to the third year, and start the second cycle, and the buck/doe ratios are up substantially, and hopefully that has resulted in better fawn survival, and you are on your way to a quality deer herd, and quality hunting experience, without limiting opportunity.

A secondary benefit could be that a lot of the hunters who passed on small bucks the first year have such a great time on their hunt the second year they elect to continue to let the small bucks go. No way to know that, but I think it is a natural progression that a lot of hunters make as they get older, particularly when they get to participate in some quality hunts.

I have been sending suggestions ODF&W about things they should consider doing here in Oregon to stop the downward slide of our deer populations. Going to have to figure out how to incorporate this into what I am pushing.

Thanks guys.

Scoutdog
 
I heard some SFW higher ups discussing this very idea back in January. I like it. I don't see how you could only do it in a few areas, IMO it would need to be on ALL general season areas.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Why does UT not require mandatory reporting of every big game tag given out now? You buy a tag...you have to go online by xx/xx and report in. You don't report back in...you can't purchase a tag next year.
 
Its a great idea and one that I would support. We Utards need to
understand that greed needs to be a thing of the past with
hunting. Most in this state believe it is their "right" to
shoot deer every year.

As long as I am out hunting, I do not need to shoot a deer. Plus, there would always be a chance to get a trophy.

We can't keep managing the same way and expect to get different
results.
 
I really like the idea as well. I have been a DH for the last nine years and have liked the one deer in three years rule. Lets go as was suggested above and issue a two year deer licence with only one tag.

Mark
 
This idea sounds intriguing. But, there needs to be one change for it to work, if you are going to issue 90,000 two year tags statewide (however large or small the regions) you should give 45,000 two year tags out the first year you start, and then 45,000 out the next year. This way, every year there are some finishing their two year time frame, and some just beginning.

The whole concept is that people will correctly report, and be honest, so there should also be a reward (ie a bonus or preference point, or a LE draw similar to the DH draw) for anyone that goes the two years and doesn't kill anything.

One thing for sure, Utah needs mandatory reporting - you should have to send in your unused tag. Utah needs to reward all hunters who don't kill, not just the DH. Finally, Utah needs to prosecute the chit out of anyone that breaks the rules - ie kills and doesn't report.
 
I'm not quite ready to buy into this yet. I did the dedicated hunter program for the sole purpose of getting my kids involved. I quit the program because my mentallity didn't mesh with thiers, they did not care about the size and every time I would pass one up they were upset, eventually they got bored. I now take the approach that if they are with me I will take anything and if I am by myself I hunt for what I call a trophy We are looking at this through the eyes of people who are already hunters and have had that bug engrained in them, my children do not yet. Although I hunt every year for a mature buck(and find them every year) I have evolved into this mentallity. My children want to see success, they don't care how big it is. My wife drew a book cliffs deer tag in 2006 and growing up in a family of hunters she liked it but had never harvested a deer. She got so excited about seeing all of these deer that she shot a little three point, she could not overcome the buck fever, made a perfect shot and was very excited until everyone told her that she wasted her tag and would never get a chance at a big deer again. She acutally got caught up in the situation that the excitement wore off and she became dissappointed with herself. I think there would have to be exceptions to this. I think trophy hunting evolves for many of us out there but they need to have a taste for it first.
 
Would someone please explain to me why Utah needs to reward anyone for not killing a deer? Extra points? The DH draw for unused tags is a rip off to the public. The reason you go every year on DH is because you pay to go and do some work. Great. Why get a chance to draw a Pahvant elk tag because you did not kill a deer? Was that not the agreement 3 years and 2 tags for all seasons?

This idea may work, but cut it back to one deer every three and forget "rewarding" people for not killing anything with horns. Sounds like Utah should issue Purple Hearts for not whacking a 2 point or something?

I sure get a kick out of some of these ideas.

If your kid wants you to shoot a buck everytime you see one now is a good time to teach him a little about conservation? Your choice though, you want to let your kids see you whack a 2 point then go for it, but you are done. Every year, every year a deer, those days are over people.
 
Couple of questions.
Utah is going to a more micro managed system in 09.
Smaller and more areas.
So if you go to a 2 year/1tag system, is that tag only good in the 1 small area you draw, or do you reapply each year for the area you want?
Also, what if you have a very severe winter and your area has massive dieoff and you have all these 2 year licenses out there.
Do you close down the hunt? Ask people to turn in their tags?
From a management point of view, allocating tags now for 2 years out may be problematic.
 
Here is why you reward people who are unsuccessful on the hunt, its no different than rewarding those that pay $10 for a preference or bonus point, or those that are unsuccessful in the draw - It keeps them interested and coming back. It gives those who hunt for two years without being successful a leg up on getting back into the game. People that make the BIG decisions look at the BIG picture, they don't assume that someone will just whack a two point, they don't assume that everyone is a trophy hunter. They make decision based on what might bring about positive changes for the sport and for the overall betterment of the wildlife.

But there is even more of a reason to reward those that are unsuccessful and report - you might start to create incentive for those people to pass. Its not a requirement, its an incentive.
If you can't see how creating a little incentive for someone not to pull the trigger is not a good thing, then I really can't say much more that you will understand.

One thing for sure - you go to one deer every three years, you can pretty much write off the general deer season in Utah. It would be an absolute disaster if that were the rule.
 
And when I say disaster - I don't mean for the deer, I mean that hunters will leave the sport in droves. Maybe not you and I, KTC, but others would just give it up.
 
>Couple of questions.
>Utah is going to a more
>micro managed system in 09.
>
>Smaller and more areas.
>So if you go to a
>2 year/1tag system, is that
>tag only good in the
>1 small area you draw,
>or do you reapply each
>year for the area you
>want?
>Also, what if you have a
>very severe winter and your
>area has massive dieoff and
>you have all these 2
>year licenses out there.
>Do you close down the hunt?
>Ask people to turn in
>their tags?
>From a management point of view,
>allocating tags now for 2
>years out may be problematic.
>

Its all just speculation and fun NVDRHUNTER - but your point is exactly why no state has such a plan, and Utah never will either.
 
POINT....LETS KEEP OUR EYE ON THE BIG PICTURE NOW. THE BIG PICTURE IS THE DWINDLING RESOURCE....YES, THE MULE DEER HERD !! ALL THE PERSONAL EFFECTS, WANTS, & WISHES HAVE GOT TO COME 2ND....DEER NUMBERS HAVE GOT TO INCREASE & IT DOES NOT MATTER WHOSE TOES GET STEPPED ON/ OR WHO'S FEELINGS GET HURT. RE-ESTABLISH THE HERD FIRST....EVERYTHING ELSE WILL FALL INTO PLACE........YD.
 
YUKON, deer numbers in Utah have been INCREASING for several years, I don't consider that a "dwindling resource". But, you are right, the NUMBER ONE issue is herd number increases.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Couldn't agree more Yukon.
But, politics being politics. I kinda feel they are having to wean alot of utah hunters off the old system slowly.
There was some bitching when they went from over the counter sales of tags to the draw. Now, everyone has pretty much come to live with it. Now, We'll go to smaller areas and there will be some whining about that for awhile and they'll get over it.
Next step, higher buck/doe ratios (less tags) I hope.
And then next higher quality hunting.
If there's any of us hunters left anyway.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-13-08 AT 06:19PM (MST)[p]In Nevada, if you draw a bull elk tag and are UNsuccessful you have to wait 5 years before you are eligible again, if you draw a bull tag and are successful you have to wait 10 years before you are eligible to apply again.

I think mandatory reporting and making successful deer hunters ineligible for one year is much easier than issuing a 2 year tag. That would solve many of the problems associated with a 2 year tag.


Dax
 
Great discussion guys. "Buck", nice suggestion about starting with 1/2 the first year, then the second half the second year. I can't see why that won't work, and has an added advantage of giving buck ratios a boost the first year. However, this would only work in states that are 100% limited entry, with no over-the-counter tags. By issuing two year tags instead of a 1 year waiting period, there are no over-the-counter tags available the second year.

Mandatory reporting is coming for all species, I think. That needs to be done regardless of how tags/seasons are set up.

KTC, I guess the logic of rewarding un-successful hunters depends on your view of what has caused our mule deer herds to decline. I am convinced that one factor is that there are not enough mature bucks on many units in most states to breed the does during the first estrus period. When does aren't bred during the first estrus period, fawns are born later the next year, extending the length of time when fawns are vulnerable to coyotes. These fawns also considerably smaller going into winter, their chances of survival are smaller. Research on elk has shown conclusively that having mature bulls doing the breeding results in higher calf/cow ratios the next year. There is no reason to believe that this does not apply to deer as well.

Given that, the reason you award a bonus point for not harvesting an animal is it hopefully encourages hunters to pass up the young bucks, and eventually leads to much higher numbers of mature bucks in the population. It would have to be a deer point, though. Can't be giving LE elk points to those deer hunters.

Finally, not to get on Pro's bad side here, but, although it is true that Utah's deer population has increased, it is still substantially below management objective. I absolutely agree that the priority has to be the health of our deer and elk herds. This idea has some interesting possibilities.

Scoutdog
 
buck and scout,

I guess I see the reasoning behind a reward program, but I just do not agree with it. First off, if a tag is given to shoot a "buck deer" then the size of the buck should be up to the shooter, unless there are restrictions in place for size. If the bucks do not exist, then cut tags back? In all reality, Utah sells more deer tags than they have product or deer. To me that is fraud and a rip off. So what is happening is Utah is selling something that does not exist, then to keep you coming back they give you a Twinkie. Sounds a lot like the cherries on a slot machine. You get to hear the bell go off but you only win enough to play again.

When a guy turns in his tag in the DH program they draw for elk, antelope and not sure what else kind of tags. I do not get it. I have to disagree with the $10 and rewarded with a bonus point comparison. They price the point and you buy one or do not buy one. To me a better comparison would be the Jazz selling 40k seats to the next Jazz game and only 19k of you get to go in and see it. Those outside can fight, scratch, get up real early, and claw to get in. The rest of you are SOL. Doesn't that sound about like a Utarded deer hunt?

Utah needs to start by cutting tags and forgetting about all the feel good crap. If I am 14 and want a 2 point who cares? If I am 40 and want a 200 buck who cares about that either. There should be a deer out there for the tag to go on if I can find him. In Utah it cannot happen because there are not enough deer which in turn causes all these nice Utard stories you hear about.
 
KTC - at the end of the day, you are likely right that cutting tags is the way to go. But, im not gonna hold my breath.
 
I usually don't chime in very often but I need to point out some points that were made in earlier posts that simply aren't true.

KTC pointed out the the DH draw for tags is a ?rip off? to the public. I would like to point out that last year $1.7 million dollars worth of goods and services were donated by Dedicated Hunter participants. Each year 30 deer and elk tags are used for this drawing. If you do the math, each of these tags generated $60,000. Not too shabby. This doesn't include the money that the feds kick in on their match to this program!

KTC questioned why one should get the chance to draw a Pahvant elk tag simply because they did not kill a deer. There wasn?t even one Pahvant Elk tag given on the dedicated hunter draw according to the phone call I made to the DWR.

KTC mentioned that the agreement was 3 years and 2 tags for all seasons. The draw is also mentioned as part of that agreement. The terms are set forth by the DWR and can be changed even AFTER the DH has signed up. If a Dedicated hunter draws one of these deer tags, he must surrender his DH tag because you can't have 2 tags for the same species here in Utah. He still pays for tag he/she drew and there is no provision made for a refund for the tag surrendered.

KTC also pointed out that in the DH draw a DH can draw elk, antelope and not sure what other kind of tags. The only tags that are available in the draw are deer and elk. These tags are put into the draw at a rate of 1 for every 250 tags turned in.

I know this post wasn?t meant to be about the DH program. Is the program perfect? Not hardly. I know there are a lot of people that take issue with the DH program and a lot of that has to do with not understanding some points of the program. I hope this dispels some of the misperceptions about the DH program.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-14-08 AT 02:13PM (MST)[p]Excuse me jim, a turned in unused deer tag is then good for one Dutton early tag if drawn. Does that make you happier? Plus 29 other "good" tags none of which were a Pahvant tag.

1.7 million? Boy I would love to see the breakdown on that figure. Many of the DH guys work hard I know that for sure. However, do you know how many guys I have talked to that are in the DH that tell me leaning on a shovel in Vernon for 8 hours counts as the work? That is DH stories, not mine. Is that shovel leaning time counting toward the 1.7 million? What does the DH program pay to lean on a shovel?;-)

You spelled out the 3 year 2 tag agreement. What a shame to turn in a coveted NE region tag for a Book Cliff tag. Not sure that is a good trade or not? The idea is jim, you hunt EVERY year, you get 2 tags, AND you can hunt EVERY season until those two tags are filled. This set up is not going to help the current situation where sacrifices are going to have to be made.

Thanks jim for setting me straight on the Pahvant Elk tag. I should have used Dutton as an example. I talked with a DH who had that tag 2 years ago on Dutton. Said he did not really want a Dutton elk tag, but since he drew it he would give it a whirl. I guess my feeling was that guys had applied and had 11 and 12 points who did not draw and really wanted that tag, yet a DH who did not really care got it. That is what I call the rip off. I also specifically called the rip off selling more buck tags than existing bucks.

By the way; it is ktc, not KTC.;-)
 
KTC....oops I mean ktc }>, I think the DH program is GREAT and benefits wildlife in many ways. Is it perfect? Of course not, but what system in play today is? I would like to see EVERY resident hunter, regardless of species and weapon, be required to do a minimum number of hours BEFORE acquiring a tag. Just think of the habitat projects that could get done. I have four good friends that just did their hours hauling water to the domestic sheep that were relocated to not infect the bighorns on the Stansbury Range. They used their own trucks on their dime for gas, I say that is a significant service that ALL who hope to hunt/view the bighorns on the Stansbury's. I believe the DH program needs to be updated and tweeked a bit, but i like it overall.

Oh, and it is PRO, not pro or Pro.:7

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
buck,

Lets not have either of us die and I won't hold my breath either.;-)

I honestly do not understand how Utah can sell more buck tags than bucks? Can someone explain this one to this redneck hick?

When you pay for something don't you expect the product to be there? Or are you just paying for the tag and it does not matter if there are enough deer for each of those tags?

Can I sell Tyranasaurus Rex tags and not get a call from Gephardt?;-)
 
That's the BEST DAMN IDEA I've heard yet YD!!!!! Combine that with dividing some of these monster size units into smaller units and I don't think you can go wrong. With that 1 buck for a 2 year license you maintain the revenue and the hunter involvement as well as limiting the harvest. Great Idea! Who do we write to get this in place?


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
bowsai, PRO, and buck,

I also like the idea as presented. I think it puts the tags in people's hands, with some personal accountability, and should help the deer.

To be fair guys, the DH program got brought up along with rewarding people. I think some very dedicated hard working people belong in this program and it serves a lot of good. I also think this program is way for people to get tags every year without doing a damn thing but signing a RAC attendance paper and leaning on a shovel.

I personally do not like the DH draw. I do not do the DH, but cannot turn in my unused tag for a draw. That is fine by me, but think it should go across the board. If you choose not to shoot you have your reasons. I have even heard people suggest joining DH ONLY FOR THE DRAW CHANCE.

PRO:) those guys who did that work are the kind of people all should be in DH. Then, I would not be critical because they care along with the added opportunity the way it should be.
 
Say you start the 2 year license and issue the 90,000 tags. What do you do the next year? Issue 90,000 again? Say 30% of the hunters harvest their first year. That still leaves 66,000 hunters hunting the second year with the new group of 90,000. That is 156,000. That can't be good on the herd.

You would have to have the drawing only once every 2 years for this to work. And if you don't get drawn the first go around, would you be willing to wait another 2 years to apply again? Might discourage some. I still like the idea. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure it all out.

Thanks
oakbrush
 
AWHOLELOTTABULL..... WHAT I DID HEAR IN CALI IS ATTEMPT TO SIT DOWN WITH OUR FISH & GAME DIVISION TO TALK ABOUT THE POSSIBILITIES OF A 2 YEAR LIC. PROGRAM. YOUR GAME COPS ARE ALOT SMARTER THAN CALI GAME COPS ....TAKE IT FROM ME. I WOULD CONTACT DON PEAY OR YOUR FISH & GAME DIVISION FOR IDEA PRESENTATION & POSSIBILITIES. THIS IS A SIMPLE IDEA THAT PROTECTS HERDS...BUT LETS ALL PARTIES HUNT EVERY YEAR...WITH OUT REVENUE LOSS TO THE STATE. JUST TO MAKE THINGS WORK BETTER/KEEP PEOPLE LEGAL, A SYSTEM TO MONITOR TAG USEAGE HAS GOT TO BE IN PLACE....NO JACKING AROUND WITH THE TAGS.......YD.
 
Anis Aoude and Craig McLaughlin both told me as I met with them last week they have an open door policy. All it takes is a willingness to make a phone call, send an e-mail, take a drive to the DWR headquarters, and you have the DWR's ear. If they are willing to meet and discuss wildlife issues with the likes of me, they will meet with anyone. I also have found Don Peay to be very willing to sit down and have 'round tables' with 'average joes, SFW members or not. I have gotten the same openness from Mike Laughter and Tony Abbott with MDF. In fact, I can't think of a group that isn't good to work with here in Utah. So, if people CHOOSE to do nothing, they deserve exactly what they get, whatever it may be.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro - I agree. Everyone I have talked with at the DWR has an open door as well as SFW and MDF.

Oakbrush - I think you're right. You would have to have a 2 year draw and purchase your license for 2 years the first year. If 30% of the 90,000 harvest then you only have 66,000 in the field the second year. Now that could be very good for hunting and the deer herd. Either way, you pay for 2 years of hunting even if you harvest your deer the first year.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 

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